Interesting read on whitetail cartridges. Some may not agree, but nevertheless a good read
https://www.facebook.com/11743516602...7912013766021/
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Interesting read on whitetail cartridges. Some may not agree, but nevertheless a good read
https://www.facebook.com/11743516602...7912013766021/
Winchester recommends the 223 for deer and so does other manufacturers.
I'm a bang / flop kind of guy so that caliber will never replace my 30-06
I did have a Marlin 336C in 30-30 for a number of years but found it a pain with loading / unloading.
I like my bullets to be 150 grain and up but that is my personal choice.
Too many variables with light bullets especially when twigs get in the way.
In archery, 300 FPS will take deer as well so it is not always about velocity.
Hydrostatic shock is how smaller high speed calibers kill. Roy Weatherby was the first to prove that with the .257 Weatherby Mag using a 100 grain bullet moving at 3500 ft/sec. In slow motion videos the blood vessels would burst from the extreme energy of those speed demons. But in the early days hitting bone with a soft nose bullet would not penetrate the vitals and cause massive meat damage. With todays bullet technology they can handle the hyper velocity and still penetrate heavy bone and still cause ultra hydrostatic shock for quick kills.
Archery works in a completely different but very effective way. Broadheads simply cut everything in there path including blood vessels in a clean and humane way.
Both are excellent means of harvesting game
Both are going to kill the deer if hit in the right spot, but the blood trail on a 30 cal entrance and almost 60 cal exit is going to be significantly different than a 22 cal entrance with a 40 cal exit or no exit, fatty deer will make that difference even more obvious.
The 22LR has killed way more deer than people want to admit and still does.
As for bang flop, nothing is ever 100%, the 3006 with a 180gr SP is not always a bang flop and nor is any other cartridge with the bullet going through the lungs and heart.
It kills humans just fine in battle, cant see why it wouldn't kill a deer. Cavitation caused by higher velocities, does cause more damage. One only has to look at heart lung area of shot coyote with a .223/22-250 VMax .
Would I use it, probably not for deer, but it is an option.
7.62x39, that is all.
There are now .223 cartridges loaded with deer in mind. I'd hunt with one confidently, but I've been hunting for 45 years and I'm willing to pass up less-than-ideal shots.
I think of the .223 as a choice for an experienced hunter. Yes' it's very low-recoil, so can teach novices to shoot well, but I would give a new nimrod a .243 instead, so that they can take advantage of quartering or head-on shots I might pass on with the .223.
As far as the .30-30 is concerned, it is well proven over the decades, but must be shot well. I believe it is a LOT easier to find and become proficient with, a .223 accurate enough for 200-yard shots than it is to do with a .30-30. Lever rifles, which most .30-30's are, can be accurate enough for longer shots, but really require a scope and practice.
great points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
Most of those 223 bullets designed for big game though will not stabilize in most varmint 223 rifles, 75gr .224 bullets need a different twist. I still scratch my head at the 60gr partition bullet, but our deer here are a lot larger than many and in Texas with lighter animals it may work well, I know the 222 was used often for deer back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
Actually the most deer load offerings for 223 is from 55-64 grains. With stout bullets offered under 65g, twist rate shouldn't be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Ya, under that weight sure but then you are looking at a sectional density 0.171 for a 60gr bullet which is really quite low for penetration. Shot placement would be key, a low SD like that would tend to blow up hitting bone. The 70gr GMX is at 0.199, 0.2 seems to be the threshold of acceptable for deer size game, based on powers that be on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
If you can get that pill into the vitals though that deer is dead.
Any of the controlled expansion/deer factory rounds offered will get the job done. A 55g TSX is also available.
https://youtu.be/Rn68XihIzWg
Well a 50gr varmint bullet to the head is going to drop them like that too, and so would a 22LR.Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaman30
The 30-30 would kill them just as dead as the 223 under that bullet placement.
I would use a 223 but I'd be looking for a perfect shot opportunity. The numbers probably support the 3030 being no better through a brush screen but I can't wrap my head around it.
Ive killed two deer with a 3030, they took a combined 0 steps between the two of them. I can't argue with that.
I've found my .223 to be extremely accurate & deadly on large coyotes. Would not hesitate to take a broadside shot on deer within say 100 yards.
With the right bullet, a large coyote is 60lbs live, a deer is much larger than that and much thicker, you better get in to the vitals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushwhacker
I've owned half a dozen .223 rifles over the years and never felt the need to use one to hunt deer. I suppose it might be possible with a properly constructed bullet but I've always had better cartridges for the tasks. The .30-30 meanwhile was a ground breaking cartridge in its day that was faster and shot flatter than most cartridges on the market at the time. The .30-30's day was over a century ago. Many better cartridges have come along since then.
Both will work. Neither are ideal choices.
For the 30-30 it depends on where you are hunting, no different than the 308 Win or 3006 when you compare effective range. Same bullet diameter and same impact energy, just a shorter range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
Yes there are newer cartridges but the day is still not nearly over and all the dead deer, bear and moose every year speak to that.