For context - in the 70/80s Dobermans and Rottweilers were de-rigueur for home guardians. They've been largely supplanted by German Shepherds, Malinois and (unfortunately) Pit Bulls.
And in Military/Police work German Shepherds are being supplanted by Malinois and Dutch Shepherds.
Has the same thing happened to any extent in the Hunting Dog world?
Can't say if a breed has gone out of favour however would say maybe an increase in popularity. Seeing more interest in German wire hairs recently.
For me started on Brits however settled on english setters mostly because for me dam they look good on point.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...4fdee3f9_z.jpg[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kNoZ87]
You're right they do!Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
I would say maybe there's more people running Versatile Euro dogs now. The grouse woods where dominated by Setters and Pointers and the writings of the time reflect that.
Now with the advent of the internet and social media obscure breeds at least to us in NA are appearing.
The reason some breeds fall out of favor is they can become too popular in the wrong circles leading to people to breed dogs who have no knowledge and means to evaluate, they end up watering down a hunting dog into something else. An example is the Irish setter a dog once popular in the uplands now very difficult to find one suitable for the task. It is the same as the German Shepard example when suitable dogs don't exist you expand to find a suitable solution.
I belive that it's already happening with certain European dogs now and we will see the effects down the road.
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Labradoodles are becoming popular as retrievers, it makes perfect sense too.
I honestly don't think Labradoddles are going to replace any serious working dog breeds. I'm certain that in 40yrs time I'm not going to be telling my kids that in the old days there used to be a labs and now they have been replaced by the Labradoddle in popularity and are the better dog for duck hunters.
They are popular because people think that it offers something special which it doesn't.
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What breeds would be considered "versatile euro" dogs? I've never heard that expression (but then again I am not a hunter)Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyhntr21
The Labradoodle works better in the home though, and remember, that cross comes from 2 different retrieving breeds, there are 2 hunting dogs paired together, they should have no issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyhntr21
I think a Brittney crossed with a Setter should still be a good upland bird dog if trained too.
Pudelpointer, Drahthaar, Deutsch kurzhaar and probably the GWP, the Griffon etc I'm missing some I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by hikingquest
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That's completly subjective as to it being better in the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
And what does a lab cross with a poodle offer that a lab doesn't already possess. There is so so much more then breeding two retriever breeds together and thinking that you've done the dog world a favor the same can be said for breeding a Brittney and a setter what would you be trying to achieve?
In many cases the best part of buying a dog from an established breed and even from certain established lines that have been breed to a type and temperament.
To remain on topic I would think that the switch in the police dogs is due to the German Shepard being over bred for the wrong traits and the current group of police dogs being selectively bred for a repeatable sound structure and personality traits that enable them to Cull less and have smoother training programs. Which is what every sound breeding program should be regardless of job.
I'm not an expert on retriever breeds but I can tell you that how much pressure, timeline and when can be different from Brittneys to Setters to pointers and when you cross them you don't always know what you are getting and I'm certain that it would carry over in to other venues as well.
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Here's a link for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by hikingquest
A dog that can be used for upland, waterfowl and big game tracking.
Spaniels do upland and waterfowl well.
Hounds do big game well.
The versatiles do all three.
https://www.navhda.org/recognized-breeds/
Awesome thanks - I believe I am about to go down a dog breed rabbit hole..... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Wow out of the 32 breeds listed I was only familiar with 10. I was going to ask earlier in the thread if Brittany's were considered versatile because in my limited knowledge of guns dogs I had heard that to be the case - and they are on the list. That pleases me for some reason....Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
That's why the reference to them as "euro versatile" - most of those breeds are European.Quote:
Originally Posted by hikingquest
Yes a Brit can be considered versatile however do remember the old saying jack of all trades, master at none. So to say if pointing game is your primary objective it'll take a higher level of training to do other tasks. Along with that environmental conditions may also play in the physiology limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by hikingquest
As far as Brit/setter cross must admit I was looking at a settiny just because I have a fondness for a smaller dog. Some lines of brit have grown to big to feed the market for a bigger dog.
Is this a North American phenomenon? - the same happened with German Shepherds and Dobermans; when I first saw a true working-line Doberman I was surprised how small it was. But apparently some people just thought bigger meant "tougher' or "meaner" but in turned out it also could mean goofier and and lazier....Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Yup a north american thing. Back late '60s dad brought up a female brit from the states. Back than their claim to fame was the smallest pointing breed. She was little bigger than a cat. Ended up a few points shy of being a dual champ before dad got fed up with the trial politics. Nowadays most lines near lab size.Quote:
Originally Posted by hikingquest
I'm finding a lab-sized Brittany hard to fathom... especially since I've seen some pretty big labs...Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Is the Drahthaar not the same as the GWP?Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyhntr21
I would say not. The VDD has maintained a pretty strict standard and testing for a type and the other is open to more interpretation since the 1950s
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Golden Retrievers and Cocker Spaniels certainly fall into the “diluted” category.
What does breeding the two offer that a lab does not possess? Well first of all they are hypoallergenic, that is a significant thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyhntr21
A buddy had labs all his life, he wanted a new dog, wife did not want the hair all around so he got a doodle, best retriever he ever had.
Oh, and grandpa had a border collie, was a great grouse dog, pointed and retrieved.
The dogs have natural drive are the ones that you want, trainable with natural drive, there is no reason a mutt cannot be as good a hunting dog as pure breeds and honestly Labs right now have been bred to be massive and lazy compared to what trials dogs used to be.
First not all Labradoodle are hypoallergenic some quick research would show you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Second can a border collie be a hunting dog sure, can my pointers chase sheep you bet can a person get lucky with a dog sure they can doesn't mean that it would work out every time.
Takes just as much or more time to train a mediocre dog and the same amount of food to feed. Thats the point of buying a dog suited for the type of game you want to play.
Actually all the trial labs I've seen or dogs from them are athletic,perhaps you are looking at the wrong ones.
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Not sure what labs you're seeing or exposed to but that's not what I see cuurently. Field trial bred dogs certainly vary but in general are very athletic in size and structure. I won't comment on what some backyard breeders might produce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Cross bred dogs rarely have a level of predictability in their get, you would be making an unsupported prediction on the qualities that the next generation may or may not have. Do not assume that the best attributes would be front and centre in a cross, can actually be the least positive.
I agree, and I can trace the pedigree on my pups back well over a hundred years. Like myself the Breeders before me carefully chose hounds to consistently bring the most desired qualities forward. I can confidently say every pup I breed can place in field trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn