Copper bullet report

I have seen the fuss being made over the newish copper bullets you can get so I thought I'd do a little test because I wasn't sure. Then I figured I could share my results with you good people, some of which may be on the fence about copper bullets. After doing a ladder test for my rifle and settling on a pet load I wanted to run it through the chronograph. I test a 5 shot group of 168gr hollowpoint monolithic copper bullets at an average of 755 m/s (that's 2477 f/s if you prefer freedom units) which delivers about 3100 joules (2288 ft/lbs) of energy although that number doesn't actually mean a while lot for hunting, but you know - science. The bullet itself weighed 166.7gr when I retrieved it and had expanded to just over double it's original diameter from .30 to .67 at the widest point and .52 at its most narrow.

Suffice to say I will be sticking to the copper bullets from now on.

Attachment 42365

Good to hear. I've just settled on a decent (or good enough for now) load for my .30-06 for the upcoming deer season. I will be using the Barnes 168 gr TTSX. Hopefully I can put it to the test on a buck and get similar expansion and retention as you achieved.

I see you tested a .30 cal, but any other details you can provide?

Well like I said it was a 168gr, it's a Barnes bullet but not the one with the blue plastic tip. I used AR Comp for my powder, similar to varget but you can actually still find it on shelves.

as an aside..notice an appreciable effort required to clean the copper fouling from the barrel ?

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

Well like I said it was a 168gr, it's a Barnes bullet but not the one with the blue plastic tip. I used AR Comp for my powder, similar to varget but you can actually still find it on shelves.

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.308 Winchester?

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Originally Posted by MikePal

as an aside..notice an appreciable effort required to clean the copper fouling from the barrel ?

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I've only put about 60 rounds or so through the gun while developing the load for this bullet, but I haven't noticed anything different yet. I don't go crazy trying to scrub out every little sign of copper though. Anyway, I don't see why there would be any difference compared to a standard bullet.

Yes its .308 win. I don't notice any difference but then again I clean with wipe-out and that stuff makes everything super easy.

I think they had fouling problems when they first came out. Barnes put grooves at the bottom to eliminate or reduce copper fouling.
I had great success on Deer with the TTX. I shot one quartering to me and bullet crossed front shoulder and out through rear quarter. Not pretty. But very dead Deer.
Very accurate in my rifles. I used Fed TTX.
I also had good accuracy with Fed Trophy Copper but never shot game with it yet.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

as an aside..notice an appreciable effort required to clean the copper fouling from the barrel ?

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MikePal, I understands there are solvents for copper residue? Did you use one? If so, it sounds like they were not all that much help.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

I have seen the fuss being made over the newish copper bullets you can get so I thought I'd do a little test because I wasn't sure. Then I figured I could share my results with you good people, some of which may be on the fence about copper bullets. After doing a ladder test for my rifle and settling on a pet load I wanted to run it through the chronograph. I test a 5 shot group of 168gr hollowpoint monolithic copper bullets at an average of 755 m/s (that's 2477 f/s if you prefer freedom units) which delivers about 3100 joules (2288 ft/lbs) of energy although that number doesn't actually mean a while lot for hunting, but you know - science. The bullet itself weighed 166.7gr when I retrieved it and had expanded to just over double it's original diameter from .30 to .67 at the widest point and .52 at its most narrow.

Suffice to say I will be sticking to the copper bullets from now on.

Attachment 42365

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Looking at the spent bullet what is all that gray around the copper? Are they actually pure copper or is there an alloyed core? If so what is its composition?

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

What did you shoot it in to?

The white stuff is the sand/gravel mixture in my bullet trap. I did this at the ballistic lab I work at. It went 50m through peice of cardboard and then into the bullet trap, it's fairly large and deep so I was only able to recover the one of the five bullets unfortunately.

The bullets are monolithic pure copper according to Barnes and I have zero reasons to doubt them. Also Wipe-out is the bore cleaning solvent I would recommend over all others.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

The white stuff is the sand/gravel mixture in my bullet trap. I did this at the ballistic lab I work at. It went 50m through peice of cardboard and then into the bullet trap, it's fairly large and deep so I was only able to recover the one of the five bullets unfortunately.

The bullets are monolithic pure copper according to Barnes and I have zero reasons to doubt them. Also Wipe-out is the bore cleaning solvent I would recommend over all others.

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So what you are saying is you dug the bullet out of a wall of sand/gravel after it punched a hole through a piece of cardboard. I'm not sure that would exactly be a testimony to bullet expansion if it miss bone and hits only hind and soft flesh. You may only be looking at a .30 caliber hole in and a .30 caliber exit hole, much like a full metal jacket bullet. At close range, where the bullet hasn't stabilized and retains a bit of a wobble it might tip enough to tumble on entry and produce an effective kill. Further out it may zip straight through the game, and game might just keep on going. I use to take chucks with .303 and full metal jacket bullets under 100 yards, before the bullet stabilized you could hit the chuck anywhere and it would blow it apart, beyond a 100 yards the only way to get any killing effectiveness was with a head shot. It will be interesting to hear how you make out when you try the copper bullets on game.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

No that's not what I am saying. I didn't dig anything out of any wall. The sand mixture is designed to slow down and capture bullets not destroy them, is exactly what you use to measure expansion.

Sir this is a ballistics lab not a Wendy's.

Well guys I use Barnes almost exclusively for big game. I shoot lead but my deer and moose are Barnes monolithic bullets.

I’ve recovered bullets after 42 inches of travel through a deer including shattered femur, pelvis, shoulder, and several inches of spine.

They are just fantastic.

I have yet to see a problem with copper foul and if your barrel is prone to it, cup and core will do the same.

Just curious about the move to copper bullets. Were your old bullets not working for you? I’ve been using Nosler Partition bullets for years with great success and see no reason to switch or experiment with anything else. In fact I’ve reloaded a couple of boxes using Federal Trophy Bonded Tip and Terminal Ascent bullets but can’t bring myself to take them out hunting.

Twenty years ago, I shot a bull moose twice in the chest with Winchester Fail Safe bullets. Both shots passed right through and the bull just stood there. My third shot was a Partition which tipped it over for good. Since then, I’ve been skeptic about copper bullets.

It’s not my intention to trash the OP’s post. Maybe technology has changed so I would be interested in learning more about copper bullets and what makes them a good choice for hunting. Thx.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

No that's not what I am saying. I didn't dig anything out of any wall. The sand mixture is designed to slow down and capture bullets not destroy them, is exactly what you use to measure expansion.

Sir this is a ballistics lab not a Wendy's.

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I would have thought a ballistic gel would have been a less damaging back stop than sand and gravel, even water would have less of an effective on a bullet than sand and gravel. To check for bullet expansion lining a number of soak catalogue or thick phone books up one behind the other might give a true test, sand and gravel may given you a medium to retrieve the bullets but it heavy enough to create expansion that would not necessarily be achieved in hind and muscle tissue. Again that is only my opinion, I once purchases some Swedish spiral tip jacketed hunting bullet with a lead tip and core to shoot in a 243 Win the copper jacket was so tough, they were like shooting full mental jacketed bullets, that probably why I am so much of a skeptics about your pure copper bullets. I hunt with heavy cast bullet which are 205 grain. I put one right through the boiler room of a deer at 35 to 40 yards, at that range they exploded the animals lungs, they first went through the scapula, appear to have rotated a bit and put an inch square hole through the ribs, past through the lungs, clipping a piece off the heart and exited the floor of the rib cage. I've shot the same rounds into a Linden tree, that backstop my target. The bullets buried themselves 6 to 8 inches into the tree which was 12 to 15 inches in diameter, fungus used the tunnel made by the bullets to invade the tree. Eventually the rot got to the point where the tree broke and fell down. In the break I was able to recover a number of spent bullets there was no real evidence of expansion, some of the bullet exhibited slight bends to their conformation but that was about it. So copper being considerably hard than cast lead I'm not overly optimistic about them showing much expansion if not for the damage done by the medium you retrieve them from. Figurative speaking you were recovering them from a sand and gravel wall.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

Normally we don’t recover any copper bullets.
I can say that textbook broad side puts about 5/8 hole in one side and 1.15-1.5 exit.

They ttsx expand really well.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Just curious about the move to copper bullets. Were your old bullets not working for you? I’ve been using Nosler Partition bullets for years with great success and see no reason to switch or experiment with anything else. In fact I’ve reloaded a couple of boxes using Federal Trophy Bonded Tip and Terminal Ascent bullets but can’t bring myself to take them out hunting.

Twenty years ago, I shot a bull moose twice in the chest with Winchester Fail Safe bullets. Both shots passed right through and the bull just stood there. My third shot was a Partition which tipped it over for good. Since then, I’ve been skeptic about copper bullets.

It’s not my intention to trash the OP’s post. Maybe technology has changed so I would be interested in learning more about copper bullets and what makes them a good choice for hunting. Thx.

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I gave up using lead because I prefer not to have lead migrate through the animal if I can help it. No problem with lead as they work well.

Not a big fan of fail safe bullets.

Big fan of TTSX.

Having said that, my 6.5 PRC will be shooting 143 ELDX Hornady at 3000 FPS over H1000.
Couldn’t get a TTSX same weight.

The Whelen will be shooting copper though and it is an honest 2 inch at 300 yard gun with that BUT Nosler accubond makes smaller groups and fly flatter a bit.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Just curious about the move to copper bullets. Were your old bullets not working for you? I’ve been using Nosler Partition bullets for years with great success and see no reason to switch or experiment with anything else. In fact I’ve reloaded a couple of boxes using Federal Trophy Bonded Tip and Terminal Ascent bullets but can’t bring myself to take them out hunting.

Twenty years ago, I shot a bull moose twice in the chest with Winchester Fail Safe bullets. Both shots passed right through and the bull just stood there. My third shot was a Partition which tipped it over for good. Since then, I’ve been skeptic about copper bullets.

It’s not my intention to trash the OP’s post. Maybe technology has changed so I would be interested in learning more about copper bullets and what makes them a good choice for hunting. Thx.

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I first heard about copper bullets while listening to the Meat Eater podcast. So I read an article or three about the subject. The main take away from what I remember was basically copper is better for you and the animal you shoot it with. The authors had a bunch of arguments that you've probably heard before; copper isn't as toxic as lead, you don't have to cut as far around the wound channel, the bullet retains it's mass, better penetrating power.

I got curious and dug a little deeper and found that this wasn't a new idea and lots of companies have experimented with copper bullets without a lot of success. The exception being Banres bullets. Apperently the design they use doesn't cause fowling and expands well.

First thing I noticed was that the bullets themselves where larger than my 168gr traditional target bullets. So much so that I was not comfortable using my regular powder for .308 (4895) because it would have caused a compressed load. The second interesting thing I discovered was that the hollow point goes about halfway down the bullet, much deeper than the hollow on my Hornady Match bullets. I guess since copper doesn't compress and squish the same way lead does this deep hollow is what allows the copper bullet to expand so large.

For me what it comes down to is lead is toxic and fragments really easy. Copper is a safe alternative that performs just as well if not better.

I don't doubt Winchester made bad ammunition, even 20 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

I would have thought a ballistic gel would have been a less damaging back stop than sand and gravel, even water would have less of an effective on a bullet than sand and gravel. To check for bullet expansion lining a number of soak catalogue or thick phone books up one behind the other might give a true test, sand and gravel may given you a medium to retrieve the bullets but it heavy enough to create expansion that would not necessarily be achieved in hind and muscle tissue. Again that is only my opinion, I once purchases some Swedish spiral tip jacketed hunting bullet with a lead tip and core to shoot in a 243 Win the copper jacket was so tough, they were like shooting full mental jacketed bullets, that probably why I am so much of a skeptics about your pure copper bullets. I hunt with heavy cast bullet which are 205 grain. I put one right through the boiler room of a deer at 35 to 40 yards, at that range they exploded the animals lungs, they first went through the scapula, appear to have rotated a bit and put an inch square hole through the ribs, past through the lungs, clipping a piece off the heart and exited the floor of the rib cage. I've shot the same rounds into a Linden tree, that backstop my target. The bullets buried themselves 6 to 8 inches into the tree which was 12 to 15 inches in diameter, fungus used the tunnel made by the bullets to invade the tree. Eventually the rot got to the point where the tree broke and fell down. In the break I was able to recover a number of spent bullets there was no real evidence of expansion, some of the bullet exhibited slight bends to their conformation but that was about it. So copper being considerably hard than cast lead I'm not overly optimistic about them showing much expansion if not for the damage done by the medium you retrieve them from. Figurative speaking you were recovering them from a sand and gravel wall.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Ballistic gel is expensive and not required for the testing we do. I think you got the wrong idea when I said sand and gravel. I don't really have a proper term for what this stuff is but it's not beach sand but there aren't any pebbles in it if that makes sense. Either way the engineer who designed the place seems to thinks it a good option.

I'm sorry your swedish bullets killed your Linden tree.

Pretty crappy wall considering is slopped at about 45 degrees. Literally.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

Ballistic gel is expensive and not required for the testing we do. I think you got the wrong idea when I said sand and gravel. I don't really have a proper term for what this stuff is but it's not beach sand but there aren't any pebbles in it if that makes sense. Either way the engineer who designed the place seems to thinks it a good option.

I'm sorry your swedish bullets killed your Linden tree.

Pretty crappy wall considering is slopped at about 45 degrees. Literally.

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It wasn't the Swedish bullets that were being shot at the Linden tree. The 205 grain cast bullet wasn't being shot out of a 243 Win for which I purchased the Swedish bullets, they were being shot out of .303 British so their diameter would be roughly comparable to your .308 pure copper bullet. I did say figurative like a wall, with dense enough material to severely deform the pure copper bullet, a lot differently than the hind and animal muscle, which it is likely to pass through with little expansion. In other words it will act as a full metal jacketed surplus bullet, in some case the cores of full jacketed bullets are designed to have lighter material at the tip of the core, so they will have a tendency to tip upon impact, to provide it with more stopping power at close in ranges.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

It wasn't the Swedish bullets that were being shot at the Linden tree. The 205 grain cast bullet wasn't being shot out of a 243 Win for which I purchased the Swedish bullets, they were being shot out of .303 British so their diameter would be roughly comparable to your .308 pure copper bullet. I did say figurative like a wall, with dense enough material to severely deform the pure copper bullet, a lot differently than the hind and animal muscle, which it is likely to pass through with little expansion. In other words it will act as a full metal jacketed surplus bullet, in some case the cores of full jacketed bullets are designed to have lighter material at the tip of the core, so they will have a tendency to tip upon impact, to provide it with more stopping power at close in ranges.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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It isn't that different, that's what I am trying to tell you. If you have anything besides anecdote I would be interested to see it.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

It isn't that different, that's what I am trying to tell you. If you have anything besides anecdote I would be interested to see it.

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It isn't that different from what? My lead cast bullet or the military full metal jacketed bullet engineered to tip at impact, in either case the full copper bullet is not likely to have much of an aptitude to expand on game, unless it hit some pretty heavy bone. It doesn't mean it won't be an effective killer at close range before it stabilizes. My concern would be at longer ranges after it has stabilized.
Each to their own I'm a cast bullet shooter, they are cheap to mold, and I have proven them effective within their unstabilized range. I hunt in dense bush where I'm not likely to be pushing that range limit. In addition lead cast bullets don't cause the barrel wear, which you get with shooting copper, which you have to push a lot faster to develop its killing energy, because it is lighter metal than lead. The old timers didn't much worry about bullet expansion with their lead bullets, if they wanted to put a bigger hole in something they just went to a firearm with a bigger bore diameter. Sorry, I can't help the anecdote they just make good sense.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

It isn't that different from what? My lead cast bullet or the military full metal jacketed bullet engineered to tip at impact, in either case the full copper bullet is not likely to have much of an aptitude to expand on game, unless it hit some pretty heavy bone. It doesn't mean it won't be an effective killer at close range before it stabilizes. My concern would be at longer ranges after it has stabilized.
Each to their own I'm a cast bullet shooter, they are cheap to mold, and I have proven them effective within their unstabilized range. I hunt in dense bush where I'm not likely to be pushing that range limit. In addition lead cast bullets don't cause the barrel wear, which you get with shooting copper, which you have to push a lot faster to develop its killing energy, because it is lighter metal than lead. The old timers didn't much worry about bullet expansion with their lead bullets, if they wanted to put a bigger hole in something they just went to a firearm with a bigger bore diameter. Sorry, I can't help the anecdote they just make good sense.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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So no, you have done zero testing and are just making assumtions. Ok good to know.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

So no, you have done zero testing and are just making assumtions. Ok good to know.

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Actually I put my bullets to the real test in the field on game, rather than firing them through paper into sand and gravel pits. I would add, please advise me of how your bullets fair under field conditions, in doing so it would be good to have an idea of the game and range you shot at, to make an effective kill, especially if it is well over 100 yards. I think coming from a .308 they are likely to be quite effect up to a 100 yards. I'm only guessing they may be like the .303 and have a wobble range, after which they spin straight. I took a deer with the .243 the .308s smaller diameter cousin using copper jacked lead tipped 100 grain bullet, the range was about 75 yards, the bullet went through the animal and disintegrate on a stone cliff behind it. It had more than an ample killing effectiveness. I was not so lucky with a fox I shot at 200 yards out. It was winter and I tracked his blood trail over an extensive distance until he manage to stop the flow, and I never did find it. It probably did help that I had to break off the trailing at dusk and return the next morning to do the follow up.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

Actually I put my bullets to the real test in the field on game, rather than firing them through paper into sand and gravel pits. I would add, please advise me of how your bullets fair under field conditions, in doing so it would be good to have an idea of the game and range you shot at, to make an effective kill, especially if it is well over 100 yards. I think coming from a .308 they are likely to be quite effect up to a 100 yards. I'm only guessing they may be like the .303 and have a wobble range, after which they spin straight. I took a deer with the .243 the .308s smaller diameter cousin using copper jacked lead tipped 100 grain bullet, the range was about 75 yards, the bullet went through the animal and disintegrate on a stone cliff behind it. It had more than an ample killing effectiveness. I was not so lucky with a fox I shot at 200 yards out. It was winter and I tracked his blood trail over an extensive distance until he manage to stop the flow, and I never did find it. It probably did help that I had to break off the trailing at dusk and return the next morning to do the follow up.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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If you love anecdote watch the Meat Eater program. They use copper bullets.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

If you love anecdote watch the Meat Eater program. They use copper bullets.

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I guess they had to find some good use for copper, after our government found it was costing them too much to make cents of.


You don't stop hunting because you because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

If you love anecdote watch the Meat Eater program. They use copper bullets.

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Nothing new, if I’m not mistaken Barnes copper bullets been around for 30 years. Mind you they improved it over the years.

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Originally Posted by Terrible_E

If you love anecdote watch the Meat Eater program. They use copper bullets.

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A lot depends on what you hit and what velocity you are running. I know that for the guns that I hunt with copper bullets are a very bad idea, they are just not going to hit with enough velocity to properly open up. Yes they may expand down to 1800fps but they are not going to open up much at that low of a velocity, they need 2700+fps to properly open, and my main hunting rifles do not start out at that velocity, nor do they beat the crap out of my shoulder when I fire them.

Barnes TSX/TTSX and Hornady GMX need speed to properly expand as mentioned. They are an excellent bullet when used in Mag calibers at all ranges.
Non Mag calibers will also see great results just short ranges.

Guys we all use coppers for most part in our gang. They work extremely well.

I don’t even think about it frankly. Most everyone shoots them in our gang and I have converted a pile of folks to them over the years.

You don’t need to hit heavy bone.

1800 FPS is pretty reasonably attainable a long way down range for most CF.

I also shoot cast. Lots of fun and hardball just punches through.

See what shoots well and off you go.

Well I just shot a deer with my handloaded cartridges. 168gr copper alloy bullet sitting on enough IMR 4895 to get it traveling at 2400 fps. Shot the buck at 50m the bullet hit exactly where I was aiming expanded blew off the top of its heart and popped put the other side. Deer dropped dead where it stood. Almost zero meat loss. Results in the field mirror the results in the lab. 10 outta 10 performance.