Hospitals in crisis

"According to Anthony Dale, president and CEO of the Ontario Hospital Association, system overcapacity has been years in the making, especially in non-urban regions."

"Andrea Unger, a 20-year veteran emergency physician in southwestern Ontario, says the causes of crowding in her department are no different than in other regions across the province: Shortage of nursing staff and large numbers of admitted patients waiting for long-term care beds or home-care services mean she cannot move patients from the emergency department to hospital floors."

“Our ER has been reduced from 30 acute care stretchers to see 100 patients per day down to 10 because the other stretchers are filled with 20 people waiting to be admitted,” she says. “We have seen a 100-per-cent increase in length of time people are waiting in the waiting room (since before the pandemic), and patients frequently exceed the number of chairs in the waiting room.”
"Unger loses sleep thinking about the one in 20 patients who now leave her emergency department without seeing a doctor – a number that has skyrocketed in the past year. “These are the people who leave in frustration and come back with heart attacks or come back with a ruptured appendix.”

Describing a patient who would face delays in care for a heart attack or a brain bleed, for example, Duwyn says, “These situations are a worst nightmare. At times, there are not enough staff to physically transfer someone and keep the emergency department open. It is one thing when it is beyond your control (like dangerous weather conditions in a remote location), but it is another when it is because of staffing levels.”
According to Anthony Dale, president and CEO of the Ontario Hospital Association, system overcapacity has been years in the making, especially in non-urban regions.
“We are looking at a 20-year period where the needs of rural and northern communities, with respect to hospital services, have been more or less overlooked,” says Dale. “Now the pandemic has revealed to all, not just rural and northern communities, the system is extremely fragile everywhere.”
"With a hospital system running at or over capacity at all times, the highest proportion of acute care beds ever occupied by alternate level of care patients, higher vacancy rates in the health-care workforce, difficulty recruiting and retaining staff and workforce burnout, Dale predicts the situation in acute care hospitals over the coming months is precarious at best."
"But it is not just in hospitals where the dangers of crowding are evident. Russell King, chief of the Brant/Brantford Paramedic Services, says because of emergency department crowding, his paramedic crews are unable to offload patients in a timely manner, causing what are called “offload delays.” These delays can result in worst-case scenarios called Code Zero, or when there are no ambulances available to respond to a 911 emergency in the community."

https://www.healthing.ca/policy/hosp...ing-the-alarm/

I have family working hospitals here in Durham region, they tell the same story. Hospitals are not at all overwhelmed with covid patients, they are overwhelmed with admitted patients in various care units combined with low staffing numbers.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

I have family working hospitals here in Durham region, they tell the same story. Hospitals are not at all overwhelmed with covid patients, they are overwhelmed with admitted patients in various care units combined with low staffing numbers.

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You don't suppose the level of immigration in to the country might have something to do with the problem? As well as over burdening other areas of public services. Possibly contributing to the levels of this country's CO2 emission as productions increases to supply their needs. Probably there is&nbsp; a number of other areas&nbsp;&nbsp;that come up short as they establish<br>annual immigration levels. Shouldn't immigration be based upon&nbsp;our capacity to handle the influx, as opposed to some dreamt up quota?.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
<br>
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.<br>
- Gun Nut

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Originally Posted by Gun Nut

You don't suppose the level of immigration in to the country might have something to do with the problem?

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

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With no new hospitals being built and Increasing population through immigration, it only makes sense to become overwhelmed with more patients.

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Originally Posted by impact

[FONT=&][I]

"According to Anthony Dale, president and CEO of the Ontario Hospital Association, system overcapacity has been years in the making, especially in non-urban regions."

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I bit of a wrench in the hypothesis of the rural Hospitals suffering:

My with spent 25 yrs as a critical care Nurse in Ottawa Civic Hospital, split between ICU and ER. She has seen it all and then some, especially the ER that ran at 110% capacity on any 'normal day'. All sorts of reasons, but staffing was always high on the list.

Her last years working were spent in a rural hospital, again in the ER but it was a world of difference. It actually was a pleasure to work there. She was reacquainted with some very experienced nurses she had worked in the city who also quit, to get away from the stress there. There are 3 local hospitals in Eastern that all run very well, no bed shortages, ER wait times are very low and the service couldn't be better. Yes there are limitations to services available, but it's only quick trip from Ottawa by ambulance.

The biggest problem, the secret got out and a lot of the city folk head out to the rural hospitals for ER visits now and they are getting busier.

It would take pages to identify the all problems within big city hospitals..but in Crisis..definitely. .and a lot has to do with staffing. Part-time workers are the norm, only get 2 shift guarantees a week and the rest of the work they get is based on seniority. Leave is never granted, so they call in sick, and filling shifts last minute is always a problem so wards have shortages almost every shift. So it's always stressful from the time you punch the clock..so so speak.

One good thing about the pandemic...I think things will change as more 'quilt' money will flow from both levels of government.

One good initiative is already being used...they moved all the elderly waiting for placement out of hospital beds and they rented a whole floor of a hotel to house them... should have been done years ago.

Great thread.

A pandemic so horrible, we are firing health care workers in an already short-staffed situation. And to Gun Nut's point, the immigration #'s keep rising (mostly to areas that are already densely populated) and our housing inventory, roads/transit/infrastructure are way behind. Add inflation and politicization of every aspect of our lives and you get big problems.

A friend of mine had to bring his 1.5 year old to emergency for stitches to his head the other day. They waited over 4 hours.
3rd generation Canadians who have been paying taxes in this country for years. It's not right any way you look at it.

20+ months into this thing and not a single new hosptial being built? there should have been a half dozen built in ontario alone - instead alot of money spent by all levels of govt on vax passports, cerb, covid vaccine TV commercials, money to legacy media such as CBC... its clearly all about keeping us safe! Maybe Pfizer can donate enough $ for a hospital in each province after how much $ they fleeced us for...

Im disguted with our health care system to be honest, we like to brag about how its free, but sometimes you get what you pay for.. its in everyones best interest to be proactive about our health or were all in big trouble down the road..

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Originally Posted by kokes

20+ months into this thing and not a single new hosptial being built? there should have been a half dozen built in ontario alone - instead alot of money spent by all levels of govt on vax passports, cerb, covid vaccine TV commercials, money to legacy media such as CBC... its clearly all about keeping us safe! Maybe Pfizer can donate enough $ for a hospital in each province after how much $ they fleeced us for...

Im disguted with our health care system to be honest, we like to brag about how its free, but sometimes you get what you pay for.. its in everyones best interest to be proactive about our health or were all in big trouble down the road..

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Don't forget the money spent on covering hotel floors with plastic! Because science.

https://twitter.com/Kaffir_Kanuck/st...23512220057603

I've stressed about the health care since the beginning of the pandemic. As hospitals already overwhelmed we added a problem almost 2 years ago and all we seemed to do is delay other things than fix a problem .

Maybe covid people need their own center's. If they are worried about the the health of other people then putting them together seems awfully Silly.

Why would the government do something productive they never do just beat around the bush and compliant about how it's a problem.



Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Bushwhacker

Don't forget the money spent on covering hotel floors with plastic! Because science.

https://twitter.com/Kaffir_Kanuck/st...23512220057603

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A few fully vaccinated people have been getting stuck in quarantine . You need an arrive Canada app. Not filled in straight to quarantine I've read a few articles about this

A fully vaccinated day tripper had to go for 2 week time out. We are creating a mess.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

With no new hospitals being built and Increasing population through immigration, it only makes sense to become overwhelmed with more patients.

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Doug Ford announced just last week the expansion of my local hospital to be the biggest in Canada. That is both hospital sites.

You really need to get out more often or if your locked in watch some mainstream news and you will be better informed and then you can actually give an 'INFORMED OPINION"...

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Originally Posted by Bushwhacker

Great thread.

A pandemic so horrible, we are firing health care workers in an already short-staffed situation. And to Gun Nut's point, the immigration #'s keep rising (mostly to areas that are already densely populated) and our housing inventory, roads/transit/infrastructure are way behind. Add inflation and politicization of every aspect of our lives and you get big problems.

A friend of mine had to bring his 1.5 year old to emergency for stitches to his head the other day. They waited over 4 hours.
3rd generation Canadians who have been paying taxes in this country for years. It's not right any way you look at it.

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Plenty of third generations Canadians I know have never worked a day in their lives, when you go into a hospital these days especially in the bigger cities, your Doctor will almost 100% not be Canadian born and more than 50% of the nurses. If your relying on 3rd generation Canadians in the medical field your SOL, to much work for them to complete medical school.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Doug Ford announced just last week the expansion of my local hospital to be the biggest in Canada. That is both hospital sites.

You really need to get out more often or if your locked in watch some mainstream news and you will be better informed and then you can actually give an 'INFORMED OPINION"...

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I am only giving first hand from family members working here in hospitals as to what they and others in healthcare are experiencing. To much of the same crap daily on MSM, tell me the weather and temperatures and I good

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

I am only giving first hand from family members working here in hospitals as to what they and others in healthcare are experiencing. To much of the same crap daily on MSM, tell me the weather and temperatures and I good

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Amen, daily news, first 10 minutes Covid propaganda, 5 minutes of advertising, 2 minutes of weather and then back to more propaganda. There is really a mouse fart worth of real news.

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Originally Posted by canadaman30

I am only giving first hand from family members working here in hospitals as to what they and others in healthcare are experiencing. To much of the same crap daily on MSM, tell me the weather and temperatures and I good

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I get what you are saying, I was up in Bancroft hospital over the rifle season visiting a friend. Staff appeared to be over run with problems, one young nurse looking after four patients, all 12 beds were occupied and a bunch of people in the emergency. A senior nurse said that since Covid they seem always now to be busy.

The women's auxiliary have apparently now collected enough money to now buy an MRI machine.

This is a terrible state of affairs, Bancroft is now a big retirement town and they need a big expansion of services.

Governments do not plan ahead, if they expanded this hospital to provide more services, they would encourage baby boomers from the GTA
to move up there and retire to their secondary properties or they would buy up there and free up homes in the cities for people still working.

Mind you they could have also run the gas line up there 10 years ago instead of stopping at Madoc, no forward vision.

Hospital capacity has been on the decline for years. Cost cutting is significant in the industry and better medical care has made patients spend less time in the hospital. Before a mother would spend a week in the hospital post-birth with her newborn, now its one day. Someone said earlier that high immigration is not synchronized with hospital capacity, that sounds right

Reading all this makes me think how every body jumped on me when I suggested that the health care here in the states is much better than in Canada - anything run my the government is going to be second rate -

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Originally Posted by JoePa

Reading all this makes me think how every body jumped on me when I suggested that the health care here in the states is much better than in Canada - anything run my the government is going to be second rate -

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Oh the quality of care in the USA is WAY better than in Canada. The issue is affordability.
And let's talk the truth about that ... the cost of hospitalization in the USA is RIDICULOUS!
Like insanely ridiculous!

My son (who is a US citizen) cut his foot on a sea shell at the beach (7 years old at the time) ... we took him
to hospital in Florida. We were in and out in under 45 minutes. He needed 2 stitches.

$6000 bill.

I have insurance. My insurance company negotiated them down to $2500 I think, which is still high, but a lot more
reasonable.

Now isn't that gouging of the little guy? What if I didn't have an insurance company to fight for me ... would I have
been stuck with an added $3500 charge?

You live in a country that makes families broke if anyone in the household is fighting a major health problem.

So sure ... you can get the best if you're prepared to pay like 3x or more on the price.

Heck ... a Ferrari is way better than the car I drive ... if I want to spend that kind of money.

Let's talk about VALUE ... that's where the discussion should be had.

I've seen all I need to see about how much better the American system is than the Canadian. Years ago,my BIL had an serious car collision and was seriously injured. He was on his way home from work when hit head on by a drunk on US 219 south of Buffalo. The drunk later died of injuries. Even though he was covered by work place insurance,after two surgeries and extended care and rehab,the BIL was still left with a medical bill of $200K that their insurance didn't cover. Being retirees on a fixed income,they sold their home to the kids to raise enough money to cover the bill. That way,at least,they still had a place to live. Fast forward 10 years,my BIL passed away flat broke. My SIL is living with the kids on a US social security pension of $500 a month. I'll take our system any day even though in the near future we may need to move to a public/private partnership to avoid a total collapse. Even that's better than a total private US system.

Trimmer - sounds like a pretty sad situation with you BIL - does raise some questions - after selling his house to the kids the kids could have let them live in it with them - as far as the 200k bill is concerned the BIL should have just ignored it - can't get anything from someone who doesn't have anything - I had a buddy whose wife got cancer - after a year of treatments she ended up dying - he got to see the bills that were racked up - they amounted to more than a million bucks - all his expenses were paid for and he ended up paying nothing - I think the most important thing to consider is not how much money you end up with when your sick - it is how well you were taken care of while you were sick -

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Originally Posted by MarkB

Oh the quality of care in the USA is WAY better than in Canada. The issue is affordability.
And let's talk the truth about that ... the cost of hospitalization in the USA is RIDICULOUS!
Like insanely ridiculous!

My son (who is a US citizen) cut his foot on a sea shell at the beach (7 years old at the time) ... we took him
to hospital in Florida. We were in and out in under 45 minutes. He needed 2 stitches.

$6000 bill.

I have insurance. My insurance company negotiated them down to $2500 I think, which is still high, but a lot more
reasonable.

Now isn't that gouging of the little guy? What if I didn't have an insurance company to fight for me ... would I have
been stuck with an added $3500 charge?

You live in a country that makes families broke if anyone in the household is fighting a major health problem.

So sure ... you can get the best if you're prepared to pay like 3x or more on the price.

Heck ... a Ferrari is way better than the car I drive ... if I want to spend that kind of money.

Let's talk about VALUE ... that's where the discussion should be had.

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If the same were to happen to someone who took a vacation to Canada and they didn't have insurance before arriving here what do you think the bill would be for an emergency hospital visit? I can tell you from experience that its not cheap. Canada/USA or any other country for that matter if you don't have insurance then the price is anything the providers want it to be.....

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I've seen all I need to see about how much better the American system is than the Canadian. Years ago,my BIL had an serious car collision and was seriously injured. He was on his way home from work when hit head on by a drunk on US 219 south of Buffalo. The drunk later died of injuries. Even though he was covered by work place insurance,after two surgeries and extended care and rehab,the BIL was still left with a medical bill of $200K that their insurance didn't cover. Being retirees on a fixed income,they sold their home to the kids to raise enough money to cover the bill. That way,at least,they still had a place to live. Fast forward 10 years,my BIL passed away flat broke. My SIL is living with the kids on a US social security pension of $500 a month. I'll take our system any day even though in the near future we may need to move to a public/private partnership to avoid a total collapse. Even that's better than a total private US system.

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Sad news Trimmer for sure but not sure as to why his work place insurance didn't cover his bills? Something doesn't seem right with that statement as it was a car accident of which he was not at fault for? Did his work place insurance not have Hospital benefits maybe?.....

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

Canada/USA or any other country for that matter if you don't have insurance then the price is anything the providers want it to be.....

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My Uncle up from N.Carolina...had to go the ER here to get a boil lanced on his butt....less than an hr, an $850 bill before he could leave!!

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

This is a terrible state of affairs, Bancroft is now a big retirement town and they need a big expansion of services.

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Easiest solution is to expand old and build new cemeteries - problem solved. ;);)

My latest and only experience with our system in 40+ years:

- Injured my leg on Oct 01, 2021
- waited until Oct 11th to see my family doc - who had never met me before - haha
- he sent me for blood work and x-rays same day basically no wait
- based on x-rays he sent me for 2 stage gallium bone scan and CT scan. Both completed in less than 5 days (Gallium test take 48 hours minimum in the first place due to the wait associated with the second set of images).
- based on CT scan aspiration of synovial fluid from knee and marrow from tibia completed same day as CT Scan. That took an extra 4 hours
- all that resulted in MRI ordered - 5 days later MRI completed and based on that appointments made and kept with 3 different specialists and follow up appointments with all 3 in the next week.

All free and for something i considered non-urgent and occurring during all the extra hassle of COVID. I can't complain. After 40+ years of no experience with a doctor i was quite impressed. Further they set up a my chart account and i can access all the records right down to clinical notes. Can look my diagnostic images, lab data, etc all online for free - pretty cool actually. Well when i say for free that should be taken with a grain of salt - had to pay for parking and pay tax for the last 42 years to make it happen.
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I often wonder what is going on - whenever I have some medical procedure done I eventually get a letter outlining the medial costs that were involved - for instance it shows what the hospital or physician charged - it then shows the amount that they were willing to take - which is often considerable lower - then it shows what the insurance paid - I often wonder why they charge so much more than what they settle for - I'm thinking that the hospital uses the amount charged as their cost and any difference between what they settled. for and what they charged is written off on their tax returns -

I have medicare and a supplemental insurance that is paid for by the place I retired from and partly by me - my medical expenses are always fully paid for by these plans -

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Easiest solution is to expand old and build new cemeteries - problem solved. ;);)

My latest and only experience with our system in 40+ years:

- Injured my leg on Oct 01, 2021
- waited until Oct 11th to see my family doc - who had never met me before - haha
- he sent me for blood work and x-rays same day basically no wait
- based on x-rays he sent me for 2 stage gallium bone scan and CT scan. Both completed in less than 5 days (Gallium test take 48 hours minimum in the first place due to the wait associated with the second set of images).
- based on CT scan aspiration of synovial fluid from knee and marrow from tibia completed same day as CT Scan. That took an extra 4 hours
- all that resulted in MRI ordered - 5 days later MRI completed and based on that appointments made and kept with 3 different specialists and follow up appointments with all 3 in the next week.

All free and for something i considered non-urgent and occurring during all the extra hassle of COVID. I can't complain. After 40+ years of no experience with a doctor i was quite impressed. Further they set up a my chart account and i can access all the records right down to clinical notes. Can look my diagnostic images, lab data, etc all online for free - pretty cool actually. Well when i say for free that should be taken with a grain of salt - had to pay for parking and pay tax for the last 42 years to make it happen.
-

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Well my old son we all basically pay taxes and that is what makes the social safety net work, just like insurance.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Well my old son we all basically pay taxes and that is what makes the social safety net work, just like insurance.

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Not actually complaining about tax money spent on healthcare. My experience although anecdotal suggests the system works pretty darn well - at least for me.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

Not actually complaining about tax money spent on healthcare. My experience although anecdotal suggests the system works pretty darn well - at least for me.

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Worked well for me to, no real big problems up until I was 48 years old and then bingo your numbers up. I would hate to have been in the USA with the amount and cost of my treatment over the next 5 years after.

Hospital being built in Markdale right now.

Don't worry it will be years away as it's going to be some fancy building, All exposed wood trusses with iron columns. Another government job where no expense spared, Will be nice when it's done though, We sure need it up in this area.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

Sad news Trimmer for sure but not sure as to why his work place insurance didn't cover his bills? Something doesn't seem right with that statement as it was a car accident of which he was not at fault for? Did his work place insurance not have Hospital benefits maybe?.....

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From what I understood how the system worked,most employer group plans have limited coverage up to certain maximums. Once that's reached,the patient is responsible for the balance. The insurance company also gets to dictate which treatments the patient can recieve under the particular plan they have. That effectively gives some corporate bureaucrat the power of who gets what treatment and who doesn't giving them,literally,the power of who lives and who dies. Since my BIL passed,garbage like that is what drove ObamaCare. Even with private health coverage,everything is far from sweetness and light in the US health system, JoePa is eminently more qualified to comment further on that.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

From what I understood how the system worked,most employer group plans have limited coverage up to certain maximums. Once that's reached,the patient is responsible for the balance. The insurance company also gets to dictate which treatments the patient can recieve under the particular plan they have. That effectively gives some corporate bureaucrat the power of who gets what treatment and who doesn't giving them,literally,the power of who lives and who dies. Since my BIL passed,garbage like that is what drove ObamaCare. Even with private health coverage,everything is far from sweetness and light in the US health system, JoePa is eminently more qualified to comment further on that.

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exactly why you need to read the fine print on any insurance policy and make sure you have the coverage you actually need. If not, you get it topped up within that plan or with another plan. That goes for many canadian workplace policies also, you just can't assume your fully covered because you have a plan. Many workplaces have travel insurance, but really look at what they cover before you travel and get a supplemental plan if needed.

Sorry this happened to your family, but it happens more than people realize and its simply because people can't be bothered to read the fine print.

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

If the same were to happen to someone who took a vacation to Canada and they didn't have insurance before arriving here what do you think the bill would be for an emergency hospital visit? I can tell you from experience that its not cheap. Canada/USA or any other country for that matter if you don't have insurance then the price is anything the providers want it to be.....

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I'm not so sure it would be $6000 for a 45 minute visit.

But my key point is, in the US, there is no choice but to pay high insurance rates, to pay for extremely absurd hospital costs.
Let's not beat around the bush, it's WAAAAAY higher in the US for a US citizen ... than a Canadian in Canada. And on top of that, the SYSTEM leaves major gaps in coverage and creates an affordability problem. How many people living in Ontario go broke because of a household illness vs. the USA?

Fundamental problem when a family goes broke because they get sick. That is one of the things I'd argue a government should do ... keep people healthy, and help get them an education. After that ... you've got everything you need to make a decent income.

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Originally Posted by MarkB

I'm not so sure it would be $6000 for a 45 minute visit.

But my key point is, in the US, there is no choice but to pay high insurance rates, to pay for extremely absurd hospital costs.
Let's not beat around the bush, it's WAAAAAY higher in the US for a US citizen ... than a Canadian in Canada. And on top of that, the SYSTEM leaves major gaps in coverage and creates an affordability problem. How many people living in Ontario go broke because of a household illness vs. the USA?

Fundamental problem when a family goes broke because they get sick. That is one of the things I'd argue a government should do ... keep people healthy, and help get them an education. After that ... you've got everything you need to make a decent income.

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I would just add that you can also go overboard. The British National Health Care system was so generous years ago that they actually reimbursed your cab fare for getting to a hospital. When they entered the EU everybody and their Uncle started to obtain health care benefits from the Continent, the whole system is now in a freefall.

The cost from 1949 to 2019 went up by 12 fold and now stands at $261,775.238 Billion or 156 billion British pounds.

About 30p out of every pound is spent on health care costs.

I think a deductible of some sort will be needed to prevent some of the frivolous visits some folks engage in here to help prevent a similar disaster happening.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypi...h=192189893099

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkB

I'm not so sure it would be $6000 for a 45 minute visit.

But my key point is, in the US, there is no choice but to pay high insurance rates, to pay for extremely absurd hospital costs.
Let's not beat around the bush, it's WAAAAAY higher in the US for a US citizen ... than a Canadian in Canada. And on top of that, the SYSTEM leaves major gaps in coverage and creates an affordability problem. How many people living in Ontario go broke because of a household illness vs. the USA?

Fundamental problem when a family goes broke because they get sick. That is one of the things I'd argue a government should do ... keep people healthy, and help get them an education. After that ... you've got everything you need to make a decent income.

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Sorry MarkB but I beg to differ. The issue is that if Americans don't have healthcare insurance through their employer, the chances of them purchasing their own personal insurance is very low. In Canada, as I'm sure you know, we pay for Healthcare through taxes and we don't think about it much because most people think its free. Almost 40% of every tax dollar goes to fund healthcare in Ontario.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000. Do you have any idea what sort of Health insurance you can purchase in the USA for $20,000 a year?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

From what I understood how the system worked,most employer group plans have limited coverage up to certain maximums. Once that's reached,the patient is responsible for the balance. The insurance company also gets to dictate which treatments the patient can recieve under the particular plan they have. That effectively gives some corporate bureaucrat the power of who gets what treatment and who doesn't giving them,literally,the power of who lives and who dies. Since my BIL passed,garbage like that is what drove ObamaCare. Even with private health coverage,everything is far from sweetness and light in the US health system, JoePa is eminently more qualified to comment further on that.

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Employers in the US have the ability to choose the coverage they want to give their employees as long as it doesn't go below a certain threshold. It could be that your BIL plan was on the low side, which is unfortunate and allowed in the US but like FishHog pointed out, there are ways to buy top up coverage to make sure you are insured properly.

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000.

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Your right...Ontario plans to spend $186.1 billion this year, of which $69.8 billion is earmarked for health-care expenses..which is about 38% ...but there is also the Transfer payments (also your taxes) to the province from the Feds...last year that was an additional $16.7 Billion.

And they promised to increase that going forward....yes when people say we have "FREE' health care I cringe..:)

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

Sorry MarkB but I beg to differ. The issue is that if Americans don't have healthcare insurance through their employer, the chances of them purchasing their own personal insurance is very low. In Canada, as I'm sure you know, we pay for Healthcare through taxes and we don't think about it much because most people think its free. Almost 40% of every tax dollar goes to fund healthcare in Ontario.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000. Do you have any idea what sort of Health insurance you can purchase in the USA for $20,000 a year?

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What is the average income in Canada? What percent of the total population makes over $100k?

Income tax on $100k salary is $27k in Ontario (and that's if you don't put any of it into a PP and RRSP ... which many do). Are you adding other taxes like HST, Carbon Tax, Property Tax? ... I still don't see how you get to $50k, even with all that.

What I'll give you is HST ... so let's say a person nets $73k after income tax ... not all of it is spent and subject to HST (most goes to mortgage and groceries). I'd say maybe $25k is spent on things that attract 13% HST ... so perhaps another $3k in taxes. Property tax goes to municipality, not much going to health care, if any. Carbon tax should not be going to health. However, let's double that to account for sin taxes and gas tax ... so let's say $6k of additional taxes gathered that could be directed to health care.

So ... $33k in income and HST taxes on a $100k salary ... and 38.7% of that goes to health care, so $12,800 a year. So, that's about $1k a month.

But here's the crux ... that's for someone making $100k a year. Average income per person in Ontario is actually $52k (based on inflation applied to the 2019 census stats). So that income tax just got cut to $11k per year ... let's say they splurge as much as the person making $100k, and spend another $6k in HST and sin taxes ... $17k a year ... multiple 38.7% to that and you have .... drum roll please ... $6,600 per year ... or $550 a month ... and I'm willing to bet in the USA it's the same if not more (USD 433 per month).

And with that USD 433 a month EVERYONE gets health care. Case closed.

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Originally Posted by huntervinni

Sorry MarkB but I beg to differ. The issue is that if Americans don't have healthcare insurance through their employer, the chances of them purchasing their own personal insurance is very low. In Canada, as I'm sure you know, we pay for Healthcare through taxes and we don't think about it much because most people think its free. Almost 40% of every tax dollar goes to fund healthcare in Ontario.......keeping it to simple math, a person earning $100,000 is gonna lose 50% of that to taxes which is $50,000 x 40% = $20,000. Do you have any idea what sort of Health insurance you can purchase in the USA for $20,000 a year?

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MarkB is correct in pointing out the math error. The 40% you are referring to should only be applied to portion of your overall tax bill that is provincial in nature plus transfer payments. You are correct in stating the marginal tax rate is 50% more or less overall as it includes federal and provincial tax, CPP, EI, HST and a multitude of other hidden taxes on products and services. The 40% though can only be applied to the provincial portion which is probably around 40% of the overall take. So the amount of tax you pay towards provincial health care would be 40% of 40% of 50% of 100K or 0.4x0.4x0.5x100K = $8,000 towards health care if you earn 100K.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Your right...Ontario plans to spend $186.1 billion this year, of which $69.8 billion is earmarked for health-care expenses..Transfer payments (also your taxes) to the province from the Feds...last year that was an additional $16.7 Billion.


And they promised to increase that going forward....yes when people say we have "FREE' health care I cringe..:)

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A better way to look at it is take the total cost of the system per year and divide by the population. That will yield the cost per person if you want to cover everybody and not just yourself. Unfortunately in a tax based system the rich always subsidize the poor and the non-earners such as children - that is the only way to cover everybody. If MP's number are correct that means the cost per person is roughly (69.8+16.7)B/15M = about $5,800 per person per year or about $4500 USD per person per year. That is the number that should be used to determine what you could get in the States for comparison purposes.

I am the sole earner in my household and fully support 4 kids, 1 grandchild and my wife. Cost to cover 7 people to our level in the States would probably be higher but i could be wrong.

Everyone likes to knock the US health care system and highlight the amount of people with no coverage / low coverage, and sure those numbers may look bad, but once you consider their population of over 300 million it becomes clear the majority of citizens have great health care coverage.... I know quite a few people who got sick of waiting for surgery in Canada that crossed the border to pay for a surgery in the US. The US surgery was done with better technology, quicker recover, less intrusive operations on almost every example I heard. (the people I know went there for knees, hips, etc)

When you realize that even a barista at Starbucks gets good health care coverage over there you realize how flawed our sytem is and perhaps a public/private system in Canada would be a benefit for all citizens involved. (If im willing to pay for a knee replacement, MRI, etc, at a private clinic here in Canada lets say, then that takes me out of the que here in Canada and benefits YOU as well and shortens your wait time for a public MRI or knee replacement)

With the way things are going we need to think outside the box for solutions and cant rely on the government fools like we have for so long

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Originally Posted by Species8472

So the amount of tax you pay towards provincial health care would be 40% of 40% of 50% of 100K or 0.4x0.4x0.5x100K = $8,000 towards health care if you earn 100K.

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And if we apply the actual (or close to based on my estimate) average income of a person in Ontario of around $52k ... that leaves a lot less tax going towards health care per tax payer ... and as you point out, similar in my household ... I support 4 other people (and many other non-tax payers in general) ... so my tax contribution to health care is a bargain in my eyes ... and is helping to keep people healthy and financially stable (helping).

What about that Health Tax that McFly gave us I have had $2000 taken out of my pay just for that one

Lots of donations to help out too. Our taxes can't cover all of it.

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