The Environmentalist's Catch-22

With the fall of the fur trade and bleeding heart enviro-terrorists publicly protesting any clothing company that uses real fur, demand for furs, and consequently prices of furs, have fallen incredibly in the last 10 years.
With that, beaver populations are beginning to explode as fewer trappers have incentive to trap. There is no money left in it when prices are as low as they are today, considering the work and time involved in trapping and preparing the furs.
So beaver populations are expanding greatly. This fall when heading up to my property in N. Ontario the damage from beavers to the trees was incredible. Total devastation. Acres upon acres of hardwood trees mowed down around beaver ponds.
We all know that trees suck up CO2 out of the atmosphere.
Using the "logic" applied by the Enviro-terrorists - BEAVERS ARE CAUSING GLOBAL WARMING!!!
But we can't kill beavers because that's just not nice!
What to do?
Trapping (and hunting for that matter) has been part of the ecosystem for over 400 years and during that time has integrated itself as part of the system to control populations. Shutting off this major contributor of wildlife control will cause a giant disruption in environmental systems across Canada.
What to do, what to do?
I am sure some idiot in Government is cooking up a way to dispense birth control to wildlife populations to either sterilize them or kill the babies. This of course creates a whole other environmental disaster.
But Government Control is what it's all about....

Agreed.

Fur is one of the most practical and sustainable resources we have. Meant to last a lifetime and be passed down to others. Not like the cheaply made yet very expensive disposable products of today.

I always laugh at the rabid peta types who harass you for wearing a down jacket even though they eat meat, drive cars, have multiple electronic devices, use leather or petroleum-based pleather products....the hypocrisy is endless. These are mostly urban, upper class liberals who take multiple vacations a year. Carbon footprint? Guess they are just projecting their guilty conscience onto others.

We'll have to evolve our trapping methods to 'Have a Heart' traps. Then learn how to carefully give them vasectomies before we release them...:)

People use to manage wildlife and make money from fur.
Now. people will have to pay someone to manage wildlife.

Coyote control in parks. Bears in town. Beavers floods. And on and on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by old outdoorsman

Trapping (and hunting for that matter) has been part of the ecosystem for over 400 years and during that time has integrated itself as part of the system to control populations. Shutting off this major contributor of wildlife control will cause a giant disruption in environmental systems across Canada.

---

If you have time, I suggest reading this piece by the late Sir Roger Scruton on Animal Rights (https://www.city-journal.org/html/an...hts-11955.html).

I hunted some farms in Chatham-Kent, along the Thames River. I could not believe the numbers of large trees that were felled by beavers…..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tangdre

If you have time, I suggest reading this piece by the late Sir Roger Scruton on Animal Rights (https://www.city-journal.org/html/an...hts-11955.html).

---

The article dates from 2000. The strange thing is that everything Mr.Scruton cited,then,is reality today. Welcome to the forum BTW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

The article dates from 2000. The strange thing is that everything Mr.Scruton cited,then,is reality today. Welcome to the forum BTW.

---

Thanks for the welcome.

Yep, 21 years old... Nevertheless, extremely relevant reflections and arguments on animal rights/responsibilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by old outdoorsman

With the fall of the fur trade and bleeding heart enviro-terrorists publicly protesting any clothing company that uses real fur, demand for furs, and consequently prices of furs, have fallen incredibly in the last 10 years.
With that, beaver populations are beginning to explode as fewer trappers have incentive to trap. There is no money left in it when prices are as low as they are today, considering the work and time involved in trapping and preparing the furs.
So beaver populations are expanding greatly. This fall when heading up to my property in N. Ontario the damage from beavers to the trees was incredible. Total devastation. Acres upon acres of hardwood trees mowed down around beaver ponds.
We all know that trees suck up CO2 out of the atmosphere.
Using the "logic" applied by the Enviro-terrorists - BEAVERS ARE CAUSING GLOBAL WARMING!!!
But we can't kill beavers because that's just not nice!
What to do?
Trapping (and hunting for that matter) has been part of the ecosystem for over 400 years and during that time has integrated itself as part of the system to control populations. Shutting off this major contributor of wildlife control will cause a giant disruption in environmental systems across Canada.
What to do, what to do?
I am sure some idiot in Government is cooking up a way to dispense birth control to wildlife populations to either sterilize them or kill the babies. This of course creates a whole other environmental disaster.
But Government Control is what it's all about....

---

Government pay trappers a flat rate to fill their quota. (Cheaper than losing and rebuilding infrastructure.)
Forest Industry, CP and CN continue workings closely with trappers.
Add Beavers to small game licence that you can hunt.
All homeowners manage beavers on their property.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bushwhacker

Agreed.

Fur is one of the most practical and sustainable resources we have. Meant to last a lifetime and be passed down to others. Not like the cheaply made yet very expensive disposable products of today.

I always laugh at the rabid peta types who harass you for wearing a down jacket even though they eat meat, drive cars, have multiple electronic devices, use leather or petroleum-based pleather products....the hypocrisy is endless. These are mostly urban, upper class liberals who take multiple vacations a year. Carbon footprint? Guess they are just projecting their guilty conscience onto others.

---

I always laugh at the Conservatives over kill remarks which if your comments above were even remotely true then Conservatives are eating Tofu, riding around on bicycles , communicating with fire signals and drums, are wearing only robes made from beaver skins and never use petroleum-based products.

After you have finished picking up your Timmies this morning, in your pick up truck, after you sat idling with it for ten minutes in the driveway
read your post over and see if it makes any sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by old outdoorsman

With the fall of the fur trade and bleeding heart enviro-terrorists publicly protesting any clothing company that uses real fur, demand for furs, and consequently prices of furs, have fallen incredibly in the last 10 years.
With that, beaver populations are beginning to explode as fewer trappers have incentive to trap. There is no money left in it when prices are as low as they are today, considering the work and time involved in trapping and preparing the furs.
So beaver populations are expanding greatly. This fall when heading up to my property in N. Ontario the damage from beavers to the trees was incredible. Total devastation. Acres upon acres of hardwood trees mowed down around beaver ponds.
We all know that trees suck up CO2 out of the atmosphere.
Using the "logic" applied by the Enviro-terrorists - BEAVERS ARE CAUSING GLOBAL WARMING!!!
But we can't kill beavers because that's just not nice!
What to do?
Trapping (and hunting for that matter) has been part of the ecosystem for over 400 years and during that time has integrated itself as part of the system to control populations. Shutting off this major contributor of wildlife control will cause a giant disruption in environmental systems across Canada.
What to do, what to do?
I am sure some idiot in Government is cooking up a way to dispense birth control to wildlife populations to either sterilize them or kill the babies. This of course creates a whole other environmental disaster.
But Government Control is what it's all about....

---

Not to sure what Government control has to do with the beaver population. The trappers are still licensed so can still trap. If they cannot make money from the furs, they will be making money from trapping nuisance beavers for local municipalities. My local trapper will not even come out for under $100.00 a visit and wants the same amount of money per beaver trapped. What to do, what to do.

So we have had beavers forever in Canada and they did not manage to decimate our forests so I would not be unduly worried about beavers causing global warming. I am not to sure where you get this shutting of this major contribution of wildlife control. How has it been shut off and where? I think you will find that without beavers we will cause a giant disruption in environmental controls across Canada.
You know the stuff they naturally do, open up spaces for new growth, filter water to make it clean and fresh, make habitat for other species, fish and frogs and then all that feeds on them.

Like always Gil, you miss the point.

Actually Gilroy is the one person making sense in this thread. I don't always agree with Gilroy; but he is bang on with his comments.
BTW, I sat in the company truck, in line at Tummies for 8 minutes this morning.

Beaver pelts going for $14.
https://www.trappingtoday.com/2020-2...rket-forecast/
That's not worth anyone's time.
The drop in fur prices and demand is directly a result of PETA types protesting the fur industry and companies having to switch to man-made furs which are arguably WORSE for the environment to manufacture.
"Only 50 to 60 percent of the allowed numbers are actually trapped." Quota's set by Ontario are NOT being met - too much work for $14.
https://furmanagers.com/beaver/
Yes, fur trappers are still licensed to trap! So what? They aren't.
Probably 95% of Ontario is Crown Land - so those trapping or killing nuisance beavers on private property doesn't make a dent in the overall beaver populations.
As for my statement regarding beavers causing global warming, if you actually read what I wrote I said "Using the "logic" applied by the Enviro-terrorists - BEAVERS ARE CAUSING GLOBAL WARMING!!!" - due to the increasing number of trees being cut down by an increasing beaver population. The tree-huggers should be upset that beavers are cutting down too many trees. But I guess that sarcasm was lost on you.
Trudeau has appointed an Enviro-Terrorist as the Environment Minister. The guy was actively involved with Greenpeace - a quasi terrorist organization. https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ian-coastguard
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/trudeau-...ties-1.1672073
You don't think that the environmental issues, including the 'Climate Change' agenda being pushed by the Fed Govt is about control? You're less intelligent than I thought - and that says something.
Like I said, you missed the point.
Once the rhetoric on COVID slows down, the Fed Govt will announce a Climate Emergency and start stripping away even more rights.
Carbon taxes do nothing to help the environment, it just shifts wealth from the commoner to the Ruling Class.
don't forget, while Canadians were under 'house arrest' for CV19, Trudeau was vacationing in the Bahamas and the Fed Govt brought in almost 300,000 immigrants from third world countries - all in the middle of a so-called Global Pandemic.
My original post was highlighting the environmental damage being done by an increasing beaver population, which is directly a result of the efforts of "environmentalists". If they really are concerned about the environment, then perhaps a balanced approach is best - but balance isn't what they want.

"My original post was highlighting the environmental damage being done by an increasing beaver population, which is directly a result of the efforts of "environmentalists". If they really are concerned about the environment, then perhaps a balanced approach is best - but balance isn't what they want."


Well clearly now that you have unmasked yourself we can all read that your original post was intended to take a run at the Government for a whole host of problems you perceive them to have caused.

So breaking down your rant a little if trappers cannot harvest the beavers they do not make their quota and might have a problem keeping their licenses? From what I am reading top grade castors are fetching $100.00 a pound. I know local municipalities hire trappers and some offer bounties in excess of the pelt value. I think the number of trees cut down by beavers pales in comparison to the numbers wasted by bad logging practices over the decades.

If you cannot see what is happening in BC and the east coast for flooding which is caused by man made climate change, your less intelligent than I thought and that is saying something. Trying to tie in Beavers to Global Warming is a bit of an overreach.

Maybe your concern for environmental damage would appear more genuine if you made mention of burning fossil fuels, pollution from things like the Oil Sands, the fact the Canadians use more energy than any other nation on the planet per capita.

I am pretty sure the governments have plenty of control over us already and what they do not have people FREELY give it up by posting their entire private lives on places like Facebook. LOL

No conservatives use modern products that ease life just like liberals-we just don't chastise everyone for doing what we have thought through to make sense.

As a trapper who was approached by a municipality to trap beavers I had to decline.
Reason being was the cost of $5 million in liability insurance that the municipality required would cost $1000 per year and in a when needed call instance even at $100 per beaver would take 11 beavers to break even and might not get more than 3 calls averaging 2-3 beaver is a losing proposition.
Again us conservatives have to think things through before we educate everyone else.

How about a little proof of climate change for starters and proof that it is caused by man?
Here is a little actual information for you-the biggest greenhouse gas is h20-water vapor-it is in the atmosphere at a concentration 1000 times that of C02-the world did not end when steam was the biggest power source available and that steam was generated by burning coal!
C02 is as pointed out above absorbed by plants who do the service of releasing the gas 02=oxygen.
The increase in c02 output is directly proportionate in the increase of plant yields over the last 50-60 some years along with increased nitrogen input(buy only so much as the plants can effectively use).
so much like Olympic athletes often have more efficient lungs so to do plants when they have effectively been getting turbo charged with the gas they depend on consuming.

there are a lot more factors that environmental activists who have little to no understanding of the topic scream and rant and rave about and refuse to educate themselves about-like the FACT that there is a great deal of money involved in the green movement that drives it and keeps it at the forefront that has nothing to do with actually having a green outcome.

There are many things in life that are "HARD TO PROVE" but I just have to go outside every day or read and watch the terrible information available on droughts, floods , fires etc. to know something is terribly wrong. I for one am afraid for future generations. Something is happening and we have to figure it out and not deny it. My take on something bad happening.
rodmcd

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodmcd

There are many things in life that are "HARD TO PROVE" but I just have to go outside every day or read and watch the terrible information available on droughts, floods , fires etc. to know something is terribly wrong. I for one am afraid for future generations. Something is happening and we have to figure it out and not deny it. My take on something bad happening.
rodmcd

---

There is no extreme weather events happening-it was hotter in the late 70's than it is now.
as for worse storms-nope not happening, many category 5 hurricanes in the past and few if any stronger than category 4 in the last 30 years.
As for tornadoes the count is actually down as well.

Alarmists get excited about the vast increase they perceive in storm data,but never include the fact that satellite data gives access to the whole world that was never available before the late 60s- so many storms happened that nobody ever saw to report.
Advances in science do not mean new phenomenon are happening-they just bring new information not previously available in many if not all cases.

We didn't discuss wild fires that are the hot topic lately-reduced budgets for fire control and back burning leave more flammable duff available for the naturally occurring lightning strike fires and there is always accidents and arson to consider.

Shrinking polar ice caps is my personal favorite though-a 30 second google search will indicate that the poles are desert conditions naturally and the ice caps are the remainder of a past ice age.
If desert condition how are the polar ice caps expected to maintain let alone grow due to the natural process of calving?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodmcd

There are many things in life that are "HARD TO PROVE" but I just have to go outside every day or read and watch the terrible information available on droughts, floods , fires etc. to know something is terribly wrong. I for one am afraid for future generations. Something is happening and we have to figure it out and not deny it. My take on something bad happening.
rodmcd

---

Don't be so eager to drink the "cool aid". Examining where the money comes from and where it goes explains a lot about the "environmental" business........ as in giving everyone the "business".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodmcd

There are many things in life that are "HARD TO PROVE" but I just have to go outside every day or read and watch the terrible information available on droughts, floods , fires etc. to know something is terribly wrong. I for one am afraid for future generations. Something is happening and we have to figure it out and not deny it. My take on something bad happening.
rodmcd

---

Read the book- A Cultural History of Climate by Wolfgang Behringer,
28 C$ on Amazon.
No politics,no brainwashing,no theories and no propaganda.

Just simple facts from the past.

Read it-THEN make conclusions.

We have to stop blaming every storm on climate change. Every disaster is used as a climate scheme

As Trudeau spouts off and says climate change is real that we cannot deny it as we watch houses burn from a forest fire.

Truth is its been happening for hundreds of years. I was censored again on YouTube for quotes and the link to the Canadian encyclopedia of fire disasters. https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....fire-disasters

If we are so inclined to tackle the climate crisis why we still shipping coal to China? We bark about them using it but have no problem shipping it to them.


How about they pipe up and tell us the real agenda and what it means .

Driving less is posted on the wef as a way to lower the standard of living. A way to tackle the climate crisis. Also talks about degrowth without messing up the gdp governments are proud we are having less children.

China is concerned about future substanable developments they just opened a new facility in the cultured meats. In case you missed it or just our media missing it like all naritives. But they plan on industrialization and commercialization it by 2025 in just 2 years as they work with the usa to get it into the market. The usa is the second country to legalize and bring in the lab grown meats. https://english.alarabiya.net/featur...eyes-US-market

https://www.reuters.com/business/chi...et-2023-08-10/

As we target the farmers tax the cows close down farms in the name of climate change they already have an alternative plan for the people. They are literally building them just next door . Italy just banned synthetic meats as a way to preserve their heritage. No news on that either lol. Wonder why.



Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

On a side note our government admitted it will use what it learned from the pandemic to tackle the climate crisis.
We all know how that turned out. What's next mandatory climate qr codes. Oh yeah that's the digital part they also don't want to talk about.



Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

Well, never been accused of being a "Cool Aid" drinker in all my 74 years and I certainly do not have to buy a book before I form an opinion although if you are willing to send me your copy I will certainly take a look. I have been an avid bird photographer and fisherperson (politically correct I hope?) for too many years to count. I watch and do see changes happening out there that worry me. Maybe some people think that 70+ years is too short a span to see change. That is fine but I personally think that it is long enough. I'm going to keep watching as long as I can and hope for our future generations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodmcd

Well, never been accused of being a "Cool Aid" drinker in all my 74 years and I certainly do not have to buy a book before I form an opinion although if you are willing to send me your copy I will certainly take a look. I have been an avid bird photographer and fisherperson (politically correct I hope?) for too many years to count. I watch and do see changes happening out there that worry me. Maybe some people think that 70+ years is too short a span to see change. That is fine but I personally think that it is long enough. I'm going to keep watching as long as I can and hope for our future generations.

---

Please do keep observing, I would never discourage that.
I just ask that you get climate science from climatologists and not zoologists like David Suzuki or government and media.

On a side note and please take with humor intended. I have had an AVID DILIKE for David Suzuki for my entire life. I am also not a big fan of a lot of the current governments or most media outlets. I do like to form my opinions on what I see and experience when I am out and about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodmcd

On a side note and please take with humor intended. I have had an AVID DILIKE for David Suzuki for my entire life. I am also not a big fan of a lot of the current governments or most media outlets. I do like to form my opinions on what I see and experience when I am out and about.

---

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I won't fault you for that.
I hope that everyone makes informed opinions at least.

I am fond of people who show their work and the reasons why they arrived at their position-on youtube a place I have found that does that very thing is a channel called CDN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodmcd

Well, never been accused of being a "Cool Aid" drinker in all my 74 years and I certainly do not have to buy a book before I form an opinion although if you are willing to send me your copy I will certainly take a look. I have been an avid bird photographer and fisherperson (politically correct I hope?) for too many years to count. I watch and do see changes happening out there that worry me. Maybe some people think that 70+ years is too short a span to see change. That is fine but I personally think that it is long enough. I'm going to keep watching as long as I can and hope for our future generations.

---

" or read and watch the terrible information available on droughts, floods , fires etc. to know something is terribly wrong. "-see post #19

rodmcd- if you would like to read something else then the above mentioned information on droughts ,floods and fire-as mentioned above,i offered to read some"not so terrible information"in the book mentioned.

Just a different source of them infromations - however i have no intention to send the book.It is your choice if you buy it or not.cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodmcd

Well, never been accused of being a "Cool Aid" drinker in all my 74 years and I certainly do not have to buy a book before I form an opinion although if you are willing to send me your copy I will certainly take a look. I have been an avid bird photographer and fisherperson (politically correct I hope?) for too many years to count. I watch and do see changes happening out there that worry me. Maybe some people think that 70+ years is too short a span to see change. That is fine but I personally think that it is long enough. I'm going to keep watching as long as I can and hope for our future generations.

---

The bird population decline is not just attributed from climate change, there are many factors to the declined populations.

Keep up the watching

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

Fishfood, you are absolutely right when you say "not just attributed from climate change" but I personally think it is a big part of the problem and hope we can come up with a solution.I miss a lot of what we could see in the good old days and hope future generations will will be able to experience some of it. Also hope we are not too late.
rodmcd