New bait rules

A reminder of the new rules in regards to minnow bait and leeches coming into effect this coming weekend.

New rules coming into effect on January 1, 2022:

• establishing four Bait Management Zones (BMZs) to limit the movement of baitfish and leeches in Ontario
• restricting the transportation of baitfish or leeches, whether live or dead, into or out of a BMZ with some limited exceptions
• anglers fishing outside their home BMZ must purchase baitfish and leeches locally, retain a receipt and use or dispose of their bait within two weeks from when they were purchased
• harvesting of baitfish and leeches by anglers may only occur in their home BMZ

Recreational anglers

Effective January 1, 2022, anglers fishing outside of their home BMZ are required to:

• purchase baitfish and leeches from a commercial licence holder (such as a bait shop) in the BMZ where they are fishing
• use or dispose of baitfish or leeches (dead or alive) within two weeks of purchasing them and retain a legible receipt that includes:
  
  • date of purchase
  • business name (if applicable)
  • commercial licence number
  • location of purchase
  • quantity of bait purchased

https://www.ontario.ca/page/sustaina...gement-ontario

I understand the concern by the MNR but I own a cottage in a different WMU and I trap my own minnows. Now I need to buy the minnows or more likely do without them. I'm wondering why if you own property in the area that wouldn't be acceptable since you likely trap your own minnows at your secondary property.

I hear Berkley and other scented bait makers cheering. I think they've been lobbying the MNR for years as they did in Quebec. You should see what happened to the price of dew worms once minnows were banned.

Local bait shops will up their sales as well. We don't even have a local bait shop in the area.

Boy that map is a little vague.

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Originally Posted by DanO

I
I hear Berkley and other scented bait makers cheering. I think they've been lobbying the MNR for years as they did in Quebec. You should see what happened to the price of dew worms once minnows were banned.
Local bait shops will up their sales as well. We don't even have a local bait shop in the area.

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I'm sure the Ontario bait industry had their fingers into the decision far more than companies like Berkley.

It uses fisheries management zones, it looks pretty straight forward I think

OK am I misunderstanding this? I cannot use my minnow trap to catch bait fish on the lake I am camping beside and must buy from someone in the zone?

Does that mean I can't dig my own dew worms out of my garden and take them with me into a different zone?

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

OK am I misunderstanding this? I cannot use my minnow trap to catch bait fish on the lake I am camping beside and must buy from someone in the zone?

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If you are fishing outside of your home BMZ, it looks like you have to buy your bait?

GW - you're ok to keep doing this if your camping lake is in the same bmz as your primary residence. You are only allow to trap your own bait in the bmz of your primary residence. If it's not, then you have to buy your bait from a dealer in the bmz where the lake is located. Worms do not apply to these new regs.

Best part is you're not going to be getting generous "scoops" of minnows when you buy now, as the actual count has to be indicated on the bill of sale by the vendor. I bet you'll get exactly 12 minnows when you ask for a dozen and the sky will be the limit for the cost. You cant legally keep them after two weeks past the bill date on the invoice, so you won't be able to freeze any to use later as dead minnow bait. As far as bending the rules, I can see a lot of fishermen trapping bait at home, buying a dozen from the bmz where you fish (so you have a receipt to show the CO), then supplement the minnow count with home trapped bait. I'm sure the cos will pick up on this pretty quick if you try to play the bs game for the two week life of the bait invoice eg. Your receipt from 13 days ago says you bought 2 dozen minnows and you still have 2 dozen in your pail when you're checked. I guess it will be up to them to proove that it's not the original bait you bought. I think i'll be walleye fishing with a worm tipped Vibratto this winter. Will be time to revert back to being a kid 50 years ago and start catching my own "doozers" at night (in my tighty whities) in the summer and keeping a dedicated raised box worm stash. I bet you worms will be $7.50/dozen by nest spring. It really sucks that all the lakes I fish are not in my bmz!

I live around Ottawa, but mostly fish around Algonquin and Sudbury

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Best part is you're not going to be getting generous "scoops" of minnows when you buy now, as the actual count has to be indicated on the bill of sale by the vendor. I bet you'll get exactly 12 minnows when you ask for a dozen and the sky will be the limit for the cost.

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I'm sure a lot of small vendors won't be too happy with this setup, as a lot of sales are "cash". It goes right into their pockets without any reporting of income.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

If you are fishing outside of your home BMZ, it looks like you have to buy your bait?

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Yup... seriously
I think this will be a law I will disregard.

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Originally Posted by Browtine

Yup... seriously
I think this will be a law I will disregard.

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Maybe. If I can't use my own dew worms,I'll stick to crankbait. I wouldn't want to be in the bait business,anymore. Legislation like this can kill an entire industry.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Maybe. If I can't use my own dew worms,I'll stick to crankbait. I wouldn't want to be in the bait business,anymore. Legislation like this can kill an entire industry.

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Doesn't apply to worms. You can use your own.

Wish I had paid more attention. The problem is the line between zone 15 and zone 18 for us. We fish 18 but live in 15. Likely a 100 kilometer trip or more to purchase legal minnows for 18
Are there bait dealers in Lanark?
Just not reasonable.

Thinking of changing my address on one of my ID's to my cottage, At least then I could catch minnows at my cottage for use on that lake directly.

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Originally Posted by ChrisM23

Thinking of changing my address on one of my ID's to my cottage, At least then I could catch minnows at my cottage for use on that lake directly.

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This issue needs to be clarified. Not being able to catch and use minnows at a cottage on the same lake is asinine !

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

This issue needs to be clarified. Not being able to catch and use minnows at a cottage on the same lake is asinine !

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agreed, and that is the only place I actually catch minnows. I get that as a CO, if they ask, you have no form of ID in your wallet to prove that is your cottage residence, but really there must be a way you can catch and use bait in the same water body.

I guess it may be hard to enforce, but I'd prefer a ban on transportation of bait (unless bought) to a different body of water. Although, that is just me, I'm sure that would upset a lot of other anglers who fish around their home residence.

Where about are you fishing? I know a new store just opened up in Smiths falls that will be stocking minnows soon

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Originally Posted by Stuart22

Wish I had paid more attention. The problem is the line between zone 15 and zone 18 for us. We fish 18 but live in 15. Likely a 100 kilometer trip or more to purchase legal minnows for 18
Are there bait dealers in Lanark?
Just not reasonable.

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Bought my first bait of the season at Norland Bait and tackle. The bait you buy there is good for the central BMZ. Made me shake my head when I saw it was all Emerald Shiners, so it's obvious that the supplier brought it in from Lake Simcoe, which is in the southern BMZ. It was $6.99 per scoop and you got about 15 shiners 2-3" long. They charged an extra 75 cents to put them in a plastic bag with air. $8.75 in total. The quantity indicated on the receipt says "1 scoop" rather than an actual count.

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Originally Posted by DanO

I understand the concern by the MNR but I own a cottage in a different WMU and I trap my own minnows. Now I need to buy the minnows or more likely do without them. I'm wondering why if you own property in the area that wouldn't be acceptable since you likely trap your own minnows at your secondary property.

I hear Berkley and other scented bait makers cheering. I think they've been lobbying the MNR for years as they did in Quebec. You should see what happened to the price of dew worms once minnows were banned.

Local bait shops will up their sales as well. We don't even have a local bait shop in the area.

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We should be able to catch our own minnows as long as you are using them in same BMZ. Quote from government website
https://www.ontario.ca/page/sustaina...gement-ontario
"Fishing with bait
Laws/rules
By law, you need a valid fishing licence (such as sport or conservation) to catch your own live:

• baitfish
• leeches
• crayfish
• northern leopard frogs "

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Originally Posted by fishing

We should be able to catch our own minnows as long as you are using them in same BMZ. Quote from government website
https://www.ontario.ca/page/sustaina...gement-ontario
"Fishing with bait
Laws/rules
By law, you need a valid fishing licence (such as sport or conservation) to catch your own live:

• baitfish
• leeches
• crayfish
• northern leopard frogs "

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I think you better read it again?

"Effective January 1, 2022, anglers fishing outside of their home BMZ are required to:

purchase baitfish and leeches from a commercial licence holder (such as a bait shop) in the BMZ where they are fishing"

So if I go fishing up at my cottage in a different BMZ than my home address and I am fishing with my neighbor that lives there can I use the bait he catches or do I need to bring my own?

What about when my friend drives up from Muskoka, to fish with me near my place in Kirkland Lake for a few days? I catch my own minnows, in my own private pond for bait. Can he use my minnows, or does he have to bring his own?

Does each traveling fisherman in a group, need to bring their own bait, or can a person in the group from that zone supply their friends?

MC

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Bought my first bait of the season at Norland Bait and tackle. The bait you buy there is good for the central BMZ. Made me shake my head when I saw it was all Emerald Shiners, so it's obvious that the supplier brought it in from Lake Simcoe, which is in the southern BMZ. It was $6.99 per scoop and you got about 15 shiners 2-3" long. They charged an extra 75 cents to put them in a plastic bag with air. $8.75 in total. The quantity indicated on the receipt says "1 scoop" rather than an actual count.

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Were around $6.50 for 12 shiners including air and bag lol.

Good point on those shiners, during the holidays the bait shop girl told me to keep sales receipt to prove minnows came from same place I fish. I asked her if shiners came from around here, she quickly replied no from down.... then stopped realising, the implication then saying she wasn't sure?
Confusing, as if CO's have time for that. The intent is good but sounds more like a money grab.

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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

The intent is good but sounds more like a money grab.

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I truly think the intent was good but it was poorly thought out.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

I'm sure a lot of small vendors won't be too happy with this setup, as a lot of sales are "cash". It goes right into their pockets without any reporting of income.

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I've never got a "bill of sale" with bait. Cash register receipt at best, but it doesn't show count.

Upstream of all this, what problem was the MNR trying to solve with these changes?

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Originally Posted by bukduc

So if I go fishing up at my cottage in a different BMZ than my home address and I am fishing with my neighbor that lives there can I use the bait he catches or do I need to bring my own?

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Originally Posted by mastercaster

What about when my friend drives up from Muskoka, to fish with me near my place in Kirkland Lake for a few days? I catch my own minnows, in my own private pond for bait. Can he use my minnows, or does he have to bring his own?

Does each traveling fisherman in a group, need to bring their own bait, or can a person in the group from that zone supply their friends?

MC

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Interesting scenarios. I hadn't thought of that and most likely, the MNR overlooked all the minute details also? It will be left up to the CO's to sort that mess out, as if they don't already have enough to do?

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Upstream of all this, what problem was the MNR trying to solve with these changes?

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introduction of more invasive species and a worthy goal in my opinion, just not well thought out considering the confusing scenarios mentioned here

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Originally Posted by FishHog

introduction of more invasive species and a worthy goal in my opinion, just not well thought out considering the confusing scenarios mentioned here

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That's where I am lost on this. Buying bait is more likely to introduce invasive species than catching minnows in a lake and using them for bait.
If this is the problem, the attempt at solving it will make it worse. Not very well thought through.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

That's where I am lost on this. Buying bait is more likely to introduce invasive species than catching minnows in a lake and using them for bait.
If this is the problem, the attempt at solving it will make it worse. Not very well thought through.

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The biologists come up with their concept to deal with the threat and pass the can of worms (excuse the pun) to their legal department to write it up and make it happen. I wonder if the enforcement division was ever consulted?

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

That's where I am lost on this. Buying bait is more likely to introduce invasive species than catching minnows in a lake and using them for bait.
If this is the problem, the attempt at solving it will make it worse. Not very well thought through.

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The commercial bait industry is quite regulated. They can only resell certain types of bait and can only transport it in certain areas. Way easier to control a few bait suppliers than individual anglers.

Although I agree, you should be able to catch and use bait in the same body of water.

I bet after a year of trying to enforce this Ontario just goes the way of Quebec. No minnows...live or dead. I hope not but that makes it enforceable.

Back in 2014 the revenue was:

"1200 commercial bait fishing licences are issued annually, with $17 million in direct sales of live bait."

http://www.ontarioriversalliance.ca/...tario-economy/

Is it being replaced by the artificial bait industry? I would like to believe that live bait is a lot more environmentally friendly than pieces of silicone plastic and rubber laying at the bottom of our lakes and rivers. I wonder if Quebec ever considered that negative aspect of the legislation.

I sent a list of scenarios to MNR Enforcement for feedback on how they will get enforced (including the question if you can use an other angler's home caught bait when you fish with them in a bmz that isn't your primary residence). I'll post it as soon as I hear back. I heard back from enforcement regarding commercial bait from Lake Simcoe (southern BMZ) being sold by stores in the central BMZ. I thought this would be a blatant offence with it crossing zones, but apparently this is legal if the Simcoe emeralds have been VHS tested. I wonder how that works? Is it the resposibility of the store owner to verify that it's "certified" VHS tested bait before it enters a new bmz ? Does the commercial harvester have to arrange to get it tested before they can sell to different BMZs? Here's a good one for a laugh. I paid $10 for bait and now I've gone and lost my wallet that had the receipt in it. I now have a cooler of nice healthy shiners downstairs that I cannot use because I have no receipt. This pisses me off more than the $150 it's going to cost me to replace all my lost ID! Another corker - the bait I bought contained one large adult hornyhead chub, a species that is absent from many of the Zone 15 lakes I fish. This mandatory commercial bait is just going to accelerate "bait bucket intros" of new species into lake ecosytems, thereby degrading the existing fishery (Werner's previous comment is dead-on).

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

I sent a list of scenarios to MNR Enforcement for feedback on how they will get enforced (including the question if you can use an other angler's home caught bait when you fish with them in a bmz that isn't your primary residence). I'll post it as soon as I hear back. I heard back from enforcement regarding commercial bait from Lake Simcoe (southern BMZ) being sold by stores in the central BMZ. I thought this would be a blatant offence with it crossing zones, but apparently this is legal if the Simcoe emeralds have been VHS tested. I wonder how that works? Is it the resposibility of the store owner to verify that it's "certified" VHS tested bait before it enters a new bmz ? Does the commercial harvester have to arrange to get it tested before they can sell to different BMZs? Here's a good one for a laugh. I paid $10 for bait and now I've gone and lost my wallet that had the receipt in it. I now have a cooler of nice healthy shiners downstairs that I cannot use because I have no receipt. This pisses me off more than the $150 it's going to cost me to replace all my lost ID! Another corker - the bait I bought contained one large adult hornyhead chub, a species that is absent from many of the Zone 15 lakes I fish. This mandatory commercial bait is just going to accelerate "bait bucket intros" of new species into lake ecosytems, thereby degrading the existing fishery (Werner's previous comment is dead-on).

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I’m sure you are aware that we cannot dump bait bucket contents into a water body. I’m sure they are counting on compliance to eliminate that issue.

Fenelon, in theory one could use the minnows in their own BMZ saying they trapped them. Albeit that circumvents the fact they were bought elsewhere and the purpose of the rules in the first place.
Another scenario is catching minnows in say FMZ 16 for use on Georgian bay. You cannot drive overland with the minnows up to the French through Central BMZ but you could boat with them up there as all Zones are adjacent to Georgian. Supposedly though you wouldn’t be able to take them out of the boat once you get there. That’s an an extreme example but could play out for those fishing Georgian near border of two BMZ.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

I sent a list of scenarios to MNR Enforcement for feedback on how they will get enforced (including the question if you can use an other angler's home caught bait when you fish with them in a bmz that isn't your primary residence). I'll post it as soon as I hear back. I heard back from enforcement regarding commercial bait from Lake Simcoe (southern BMZ) being sold by stores in the central BMZ. I thought this would be a blatant offence with it crossing zones, but apparently this is legal if the Simcoe emeralds have been VHS tested. I wonder how that works? Is it the resposibility of the store owner to verify that it's "certified" VHS tested bait before it enters a new bmz ? Does the commercial harvester have to arrange to get it tested before they can sell to different BMZs? Here's a good one for a laugh. I paid $10 for bait and now I've gone and lost my wallet that had the receipt in it. I now have a cooler of nice healthy shiners downstairs that I cannot use because I have no receipt. This pisses me off more than the $150 it's going to cost me to replace all my lost ID! Another corker - the bait I bought contained one large adult hornyhead chub, a species that is absent from many of the Zone 15 lakes I fish. This mandatory commercial bait is just going to accelerate "bait bucket intros" of new species into lake ecosytems, thereby degrading the existing fishery (Werner's previous comment is dead-on).

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Hi,
@ Fenelon - I was wondering if you heard anything back from MNR Enforcement, interested to know especially your question in the brackets " if you can use an other angler's home caught bait when you fish with them in a bmz that isn't your primary residence"
@all fellow members of he board -Did any of you get questioned by MNR regarding the source of your livebait ?
Thank you