LPG woes

I'm having issues with LPG! Last year I had a 420 lb LPG tank installed at my off-grid cottage to accommodate an on-demand hot water system. While I was at it, I also had lines run to provide fuel to my generator, stove (this was already piped in for the old system I had, but I have it connected to the large tank now), and BBQ. The system worked great all summer and fall.
It's a 3 season cottage, but I like to go occasionally in the winter too. The wood stove can more or less heat the place up, but I ended up buying a Big Buddy heater to provide supplemental heat and to get some quick heat into the place while the stove gets going. I bought a long line to connect the Buddy heater to the central LPG system. When I went to try it out in some recent cold weather, I found that there was not enough fuel getting to the unit to keep it lit. I could get the pilot light on after purging the line, but when I went to switch it to low, it would flame out. The heater works fine with the small green tanks. I figured that maybe there was an issue due to the fact that the line was really long (20 ft). I then tried to get my generator going to charge the batteries, and it wouldn't run on LPG either. It ran fine on gasoline.
All of this leads me to believe that my LPG tank is not providing enough vapour due to the cold temperatures. The thing is, it wasn't even that cold when I had these issues. It was maybe -20 °C over night, and then I think it warmed to -13 °C or even warmer during the day. But by the time it warmed up, I had given up on trying the central LPG system. The tank is at about 65%, so it's not an issue related to that.

My question is: do others have this issue at this relatively mild temperature? I thought it only happens when it gets really cold, or maybe at these temperatures if the tank gets pretty low. I know I started having issues with my BBQ at home even in the late fall, but I assume that's because my 20 lb tank was close to empty.

For those of you in rural areas who rely on LPG year round, do you heat your tanks? I know there are heating blankets, but they are expensive and I have to worry about electricity load due to the fact that the cottage is off-grid. Also, it's too much investment for the few times each winter that I would need a proper heating blanket. Has anyone had success MacGyvering something? I was thinking of trying waterline heating cable, but I figure I would also need to insulate the tank - by the end of it all, the cost would probably be getting close to a proper heating blanket, plus I would also have the worry about safety of the system.

Regulator freeze up ?

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Originally Posted by js4fn

Regulator freeze up ?

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Not sure. Doesn't that happen after it runs for a while, causing the temperature at the regulator to drop? Wouldn't that cut the flow off completely? I wasn't able to get anything running properly, so I wasn't pulling LPG for very long at all. Also, I know some LPG was coming out, since I could get the pilot light going on the Buddy heater, and I also put my nose to the open end of a hose when I was trying to get the generator going. I'm thinking that some LPG is flowing, just not enough to run these things.

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Originally Posted by rf2

Not sure. Doesn't that happen after it runs for a while, causing the temperature at the regulator to drop? Wouldn't that cut the flow off completely? I wasn't able to get anything running properly, so I wasn't pulling LPG for very long at all. Also, I know some LPG was coming out, since I could get the pilot light going on the Buddy heater, and I also put my nose to the open end of a hose when I was trying to get the generator going. I'm thinking that some LPG is flowing, just not enough to run these things.

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Moisture will freeze up regulator reg set high so it drain back into tank. Hand hot pockets on reg next time see if it works

Over the years I have had trouble with my propane system on my camper - each time it was something to do with the regulator - as already mentioned I would look at that first

Check the installation of your regulator. It should allow the condensate to drain back and prevent freezing.

https://www.marshallexcelsior.com/si...%202-10-17.pdf

The system was installed by professionals, but I will have a look and try some heat on the regulator to see if that solves the problem. If it does, the installer will be getting a call from me.

Edit: based on the info in the link in the above post, I don't think it's the regulator freezing that is the problem. If that were the case, there would be no flow at all - the ice would completely plug the orifice. As I mentioned, I did verify that there was some gas flow. Anyway, I'll try heating the regulator a bit, but I suspect that won't resolve the issue.

Propane is a lazy gas, at my house they keep us topped up around 70-80% when it is really cold, although we have never had it stop.

I have heard some ice fisherman have invested in an inline filter for use with their Buddy Heaters when using the 20lb tanks as the heaters would not work after a while, unsure of type/brands though.
John

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Originally Posted by johnjyb

I have heard some ice fisherman have invested in an inline filter for use with their Buddy Heaters when using the 20lb tanks as the heaters would not work after a while, unsure of type/brands though.
John

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Good tip on your part!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN4uB7_ED5E

Filter would likely freeze up.
Is this first year with tank. Could be your problem who knows how long tank sat empty collection condensation

Agreed that its a regulator issues, which is either a faulty regulator, or condensate. I've use propane down to -35C, and yes its lower pressure at that cold, but the temps like you mentioned stuff should still work.

I'd be more apt to crank the burners and oven from the stove you mention, on before I used a buddy heater.

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Originally Posted by rf2

The system was installed by professionals, but I will have a look and try some heat on the regulator to see if that solves the problem. If it does, the installer will be getting a call from me.

Edit: based on the info in the link in the above post, I don't think it's the regulator freezing that is the problem. If that were the case, there would be no flow at all - the ice would completely plug the orifice. As I mentioned, I did verify that there was some gas flow. Anyway, I'll try heating the regulator a bit, but I suspect that won't resolve the issue.

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I reread your first post and now wondering if you have 2 separate issues.
Your buddy heater, does it have a built in regulator? Not a good idea to run 2 of them back to back.
Same with generator?

You would need unregulated pressure to both of them,

As for the generator, in my experience any dual fuel equipment seems to be hard starting on propane at sub zero temps, usually I will start the engine and warm it up on gasoline and then switch to propane and it does the job. (Typically on forklifts, manlifts, welding machines)

Did you get the buddy heater to burn on high before turning it to low?

For the Big Buddy heater - I bought the filter. It is to be used only when you run high pressure LPG (for example, from an unregulated 20 lb cylinder) though a rubber/plastic line to the regulator on the buddy heater. This regulator then brings the pressure down to operating pressure of the heater. The reason you need the filter is because the high pressure LPG in the rubber/plastic line apparently causes plasticizer to leach out of the line, which then can clog the fuel supply lines in the heater. I will use this filter for my Plan B - which is to run LPG to the heater from a 20 lb cylinder.
The Big Buddy heater also has a second connection option, which is to run low pressure LPG (like from my central LPG system) directly to a quick connect on the heater. This bypasses the regulators on the heater and doesn't require the use of the filter. This was Plan A, so that I would not have to lug 20 lb cylinders into the cottage on a sled using snowshoes.

I too thought that my connection scheme to the heater might have been the issue. That's why I decided to try to run the generator off the central LPG system, since it was working fine in the summer and fall. The generator does not have a separate regulator built in. It came with a short LPG hose and a regulator, but I don't use that when connecting to the central LPG system, since it is already regulated down to the required pressure. Since I could not get the generator going either on the central LPG system, I've concluded that the central LPG system is probably the issue.

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Originally Posted by js4fn

Filter would likely freeze up.
Is this first year with tank. Could be your problem who knows how long tank sat empty collection condensation

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The tank was new when I had it installed in the summer - it's still on the first fill. I own the tank, but I'm hoping that the installer will be reasonable if I call them up and tell them that I'm having an issue with the product they sold me and installed. They also supplied me with the LPG.

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

I'd be more apt to crank the burners and oven from the stove you mention, on before I used a buddy heater.

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I didn't try lighting the stove, but I won't be surprised if it won't light either. I considered using the stove instead of buying the heater, but that seemed sketchy. Anyway, I ran the heater on the little 1 lb cylinders, and it works really well - puts out 18000 btu. I also have the option to run it on a 20 lb cylinder.

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Originally Posted by dean.f

As for the generator, in my experience any dual fuel equipment seems to be hard starting on propane at sub zero temps, usually I will start the engine and warm it up on gasoline and then switch to propane and it does the job. (Typically on forklifts, manlifts, welding machines)

Did you get the buddy heater to burn on high before turning it to low?

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The second time I was there this winter I tried running it on gasoline, then switching. At first I thought that solved the problem, but as soon as the gasoline in the carb finished burning, the generator died. I tried pull starting it again when hooked up to the LPG, and it wouldn't go.

Regarding the heater, all I can do when connected to the central LPG is get the pilot light on, and sometimes not even that. As soon as I switch to any other setting it pretty much just dies. I think one time I was able to get it lit on low, then when I switched to med, it flamed out. The proper procedure to use the heater is to light it on low, then med or high.

Hey Rob, I just bounced this off a licensed G1 tech and he said your regulator has gone bad. Needs to be replaced.
Yes, he knows its new but...
There is an adjustment screw under a cap on them that can be tweaked but without a manometer gauge it would be difficult for you to get the proper pressure setting. The spec is usually 5 to 14 inches water column at the appliance listed on the data plate.

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Originally Posted by impact

Hey Rob, I just bounced this off a licensed G1 tech and he said your regulator has gone bad. Needs to be replaced.
Yes, he knows its new but...

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Thanks for the info. Maybe I will call the company and explain the situation, see what they have to say. It should be under warranty.

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Originally Posted by rf2

I considered using the stove instead of buying the heater, but that seemed sketchy. .

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Why would you think it's sketchy? Its just used to give the cabin warm up a quick boost, is it not? It'd be the same thing as using it to cook, except nothing is on the stove. If it makes you feel better, fry some bacon n eggs? :silly:

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Originally Posted by Bushmoose

Why would you think it's sketchy? Its just used to give the cabin warm up a quick boost, is it not? It'd be the same thing as using it to cook, except nothing is on the stove. If it makes you feel better, fry some bacon n eggs? :silly:

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Well, I was also planning to run the Big Buddy heater for longer periods if need be. It's designed for that purpose and has a built in low oxygen sensor. I don't know, I just feel that an oven is not designed to be a space heater. You're probably right though, no more sketchy than the Buddy heater.

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Originally Posted by rf2

Well, I was also planning to run the Big Buddy heater for longer periods if need be. It's designed for that purpose and has a built in low oxygen sensor. I don't know, I just feel that an oven is not designed to be a space heater. You're probably right though, no more sketchy than the Buddy heater.

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Perhaps not for overnight, but putting the oven on for 2-3-4 hours is nothing different than cooking a roast.

For anyone that was following this thread and who was curious - the installer came by last month and changed the regulator. The employee noted that they had received a few complaints about certain regulator models. He also mentioned that there was a bit of debris in the regulator connector. Everything is working perfectly now, and I noticed that the flame out of my propane stove does seem to be a bit higher, so I think the pressure out of the old regulator might have been on the lower side of acceptable.
I also tried getting my Big Buddy heater to run off of the central propane system. While it took a long time to purge the air out of the line I used to connect to the central system, I was able to get the Buddy heater going. Come the fall, I will probably request a fill-up on my tank, and apparently they can put some methanol in there to reduce the chances of any freezing over the winter. I hope everything works out this fall/winter!

Some (not all) Big Buddy propane lines require an inline filter as the lines can shed some fine debris which will eventually clog the heater. I think there is info on the Big Buddy website about which lines require the filter.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Some (not all) Big Buddy propane lines require an inline filter as the lines can shed some fine debris which will eventually clog the heater. I think there is info on the Big Buddy website about which lines require the filter.

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Yes, this issue was discussed in an earlier post in this thread. I looked in to all of that and am doing everything properly. Have a look at the earlier post, as I tried to provide some useful information on the topic.