Sighting in trouble.

Last year my dad picked up a .338 lapua Sako 85 long range and put a Zeis scope on it.
After a few attempts and ~45 shots we keep chasing the zero at about a 3" group at only 100 yards even on the Lead sled.

All the screws and bolts on the scope are tight and it's properly seated. We're definitely not bad shots and we used a lead sled with the same problem so I'm seriously doubting it's user error. We tried different ammo as well with the same issue.

Any guesses on what might be the issue and anyone have similar experiences? I'd expect a top of the line gun and scope with ammo that's $10/round to perform MUCH better.

Is the barrel free-floating? You should be able to slide a $5 bill between the barrel and fore-end. I had a issue with my rifle shooting irrationally. Turns out that the fore-end was applying pressure to the barrel. It was a simple fix for me to do.

Or, perhaps the barrel needs to be bedded.

Is the scope new or off another rifle? I'd try another one you have to rule out the scope as the problem.

I had to take apart my Tikka one year ,removed from the stock ( plastic ) got caught in a wet day anyway when i went to the range with it it would not group called stoger and they gave me the proper torque spec for the action screws , did what they said and back to where it was .

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Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic

Last year my dad picked up a .338 lapua Sako 85 long range and put a Zeis scope on it.
After a few attempts and ~45 shots we keep chasing the zero at about a 3" group at only 100 yards even on the Lead sled.

All the screws and bolts on the scope are tight and it's properly seated. We're definitely not bad shots and we used a lead sled with the same problem so I'm seriously doubting it's user error. We tried different ammo as well with the same issue.

Any guesses on what might be the issue and anyone have similar experiences? I'd expect a top of the line gun and scope with ammo that's $10/round to perform MUCH better.

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Remove the scope and remount the rings and scope starting from scratch. Specifically, use the proper assembly sequence and torque on all the screws. The rifle and scope are first class units. They should work flawlessly. Let us know what happens.

Get a torque screwdriver. You’ve been given good advice to start. I’d agree with all that’s been posted above. If it where my rifle, I’d strip and remount as well as torquing the action screws to the right value. If that didn’t change things, I’d be looking to try a different scope. I’d also take a close look at the crown of the rifle. Is it a new rifle? It’s unlikely to be the scope, but it could be, I’ve had only one go bad on me over the years but I did have an older Leupold that crapped the bed, so while unlikely it can happen. Most likely it’s a mounting issue though.

Try different ammo, it might not like what your feeding it.
Even though its a Sako they can be finicky with different ammo from my experience.

What ammo You are using-it is a super duper to be at 10 $ a round.........

My 85 has a laminate stock, I found the action screws came loose last year, gun shot all over the place.

I ended up blue loctiting the action screws so I don't have to worry again.

But I want to piller bed the stock, I'm worried about overtighting with wood stock and cracking it or something.


So many variables, Is the scope new? Can you try it on a different rifle?

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

I had a similar issue at one time, changed the stamped steel scope rings for tactical style from EGW and the problem was solved.

Before you spend money, try the simple stuff first.

Here’s a good video to watch about accuracy:
https://youtu.be/q2qxTc30A2c

Excellent video,Sam. Thanks for posting.

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Originally Posted by gbk

What ammo You are using-it is a super duper to be at 10 $ a round.........

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.338 Lapua is normally around $8/round to start. Plus he used match 285gr ammo.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Is the barrel free-floating? You should be able to slide a $5 bill between the barrel and fore-end. I had a issue with my rifle shooting irrationally. Turns out that the fore-end was applying pressure to the barrel. It was a simple fix for me to do.

Or, perhaps the barrel needs to be bedded.

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Barrel is free floating and I'm able to slide a $5 bill through it with ease.

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Originally Posted by cantgetright

Is the scope new or off another rifle? I'd try another one you have to rule out the scope as the problem.

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Scope is brand new. My dad just recently purchased a new Vortex scope today to eliminate the possibility of the scope issue.

As mentioned earlier try different bullet weights and manufacturer's.
I just might like what it's being feed.
But at $10 per round this may not be cheap.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

As mentioned earlier try different bullet weights and manufacturer's.
I just might like what it's being feed.
But at $10 per round this may not be cheap.

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Yeah that's the tough part. However a .338 shouldn't be opening up that much just because of ammo. It's not exactly a rifled shotgun where you have to go through a dozen different types of slugs.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Before you spend money, try the simple stuff first.

Here’s a good video to watch about accuracy:
https://youtu.be/q2qxTc30A2c

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That's a helpful video, when I saw that 94 and his expectations of it I felt a lot better about the one I just bought that's identical.

I did get great results just by changing bullet weight from the same manufacturer, it was shooting about a 12" group then down to 2-3" at 75yds. Not as tight as the OP is seeking but it does speak to the relevance of matched ammo.

My guess is the rings. Have you tried shooting on bags and not in the lead sled? A lot of energy put on the gun in a lead sled. I’m thinking the rings could be a weak point. If it didn’t wander as much shooting on bags you might have your answer.

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Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic

Scope is brand new. My dad just recently purchased a new Vortex scope today to eliminate the possibility of the scope issue.

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I’ve blown up a number of new scopes.

So how is the crown of the rifle?

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Originally Posted by natehunter

My guess is the rings. Have you tried shooting on bags and not in the lead sled? A lot of energy put on the gun in a lead sled. I’m thinking the rings could be a weak point. If it didn’t wander as much shooting on bags you might have your answer.

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You might be on to something about the Lead Sled. Although I own and use one myself (without issue), you have to wonder where all that recoil energy goes. I’ve heard stories (online) of stocks breaking from using them. Test firing with a sand bag would be cheaper than buying a new scope.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

You might be on to something about the Lead Sled. Although I own and use one myself (without issue), you have to wonder where all that recoil energy goes. I’ve heard stories (online) of stocks breaking from using them. Test firing with a sand bag would be cheaper than buying a new scope.

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Haven't been on in a bit! Tried with a sandbag and with a bipod attached also. Both times the issue persisted.

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Originally Posted by SongDog

My 85 has a laminate stock, I found the action screws came loose last year, gun shot all over the place.

I ended up blue loctiting the action screws so I don't have to worry again.

But I want to piller bed the stock, I'm worried about overtighting with wood stock and cracking it or something.


So many variables, Is the scope new? Can you try it on a different rifle?

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

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Where are the action screws located and how would I access them? I have a feeling he should check the tightness of them as well.

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Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic

Where are the action screws located and how would I access them? I have a feeling he should check the tightness of them as well.

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The two screws on underside of the gun by the trigger guard and magazine port.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

Is it a brand new Sako right out of the box, or is it a used gun? If it's a used gun then you don't know the history and the previous owner could have taken it apart . Could have been put back wrong with action not sitting correctly against the recoil lug/block in the stock. Is there evidence/marring that the action screws have been touched? I'd check the action screw torgue settings with a proper gunsmith's torque screwdriver, following Sako's factory instructions for inch pound settings and torque sequence. Some guns are very particular as to which screw gets tightens first. My first guess would be the scope install and/or ring brand. I'd remove the scope and completely redo it - bases in with a gunsmith's alignment rod, then incremental torquing of base and ring screws with proper torque screwdriver.I use blue locktite on the base and ring screws. Make sure you torque to recomended settings suggested by the base/ring manufacturer. I make sure all my screws are uniformly torqued within 2inch pounds of each other. If you don't want to do this yourself, then take it to a good gunsmith to have it done. A good one will probably lapp your rings as well. I'd advise you don't use the gunsmith at the popular gun shop on Hwy 11 by Orillia!

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Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic

Last year my dad picked up a .338 lapua Sako 85 long range and put a Zeis scope on it.
After a few attempts and ~45 shots we keep chasing the zero at about a 3" group at only 100 yards even on the Lead sled.


All the screws and bolts on the scope are tight and it's properly seated. We're definitely not bad shots and we used a lead sled with the same problem so I'm seriously doubting it's user error. We tried different ammo as well with the same issue.


Any guesses on what might be the issue and anyone have similar experiences? I'd expect a top of the line gun and scope with ammo that's $10/round to perform MUCH better.

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I take it that might be a new rifle? Do you reload too or just use factory ammo exclusively?

As already suggested by others here, I'm afraid in your scenario, there would be a need to patiently re-examine each concerned variable. At times, albeit rare, even brand name products may have defect from the factory that had slipped past QC.

Variables (high level):

- Ammo
______________________________
- Mounts (appropriate rings/bases)
- Optics
- Proper installation of above
______________________________
- Barreled action/stock relationship
- Action screws (appropriate torques)
- Bore/Crown
______________________________
- Shooter

Occasionally, one may be fortunate enough to pinpoint the issue quickly. However, more often than not, one is left with no alternative other than follow the slower painstaking route via step-by-step process of elimination. :)

It may also be a good idea to determine POIs (group integrity) initially at perhaps 25m and/or 50m to see what results are obtained and then move out again to 100m.

You did mention trying different ammo. On multiple occasions, more ordinarily, I've found simply tweaking ammo brand/weight immediately tightened the group.

Not really apples to apples scenario comparison, anyway FWIW, few weeks ago, friend of mine needed to zero a Sako S20 300WM. He tried different factory brand/weight and eventually found what worked best in his rifle. I suppose he was lucky in that instance.

Best of luck in your endeavors.

Target paper on left is 180gr Sako ammo ....
https://i.imgur.com/7GRHBoo.png

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Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic

Yeah that's the tough part. However a .338 shouldn't be opening up that much just because of ammo. It's not exactly a rifled shotgun where you have to go through a dozen different types of slugs.

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Rifles are no exception in this case - it's a very common issue .....

UPDATE

To answer some questions yes it is a brand new gun with only around 55 shots through it now. We shot the rifle again today with a new $500 Vortex scope. The groups were tighter at around 1.5" at 100 yards as opposed to the 3" groups at 100 yards with the $2000 Zeiss scope. Still definitely not a desirable group though. For both times we shot $10/rd 285gr match ammo and $7/rd 250gr hornady ammo. Groups between the two were the same except the 285gr shoots 3" low compared to the 250gr

How many inch pounds are you torquing your base and ring screws to? What brand and part number are your rings and your base? Are you using a gunsmith's torque screwdriver to ensure that your screws are being tightened uniformly and at correct max torque setting? I would expect much better than 1.5 MOA for any Sako or Tikka rifle. I've owned 3 Sakos and 4 Tikkas. All shot significantly better than MOA out of the box with commercial store bought ammo. My latest .243 Tikka shoots, using a 4X14 Nikon scope, .67MOA at 100yds and .56 MOA at 200yds !. using store bought Hornady ammo, shooting off a home made bench that sits on concrete sono tubes, using a bag of bird seed as a rest. Your Sako should be doing better than 1.5 MOA.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

How many inch pounds are you torquing your base and ring screws to? What brand and part number are your rings and your base? Are you using a gunsmith's torque screwdriver to ensure that your screws are being tightened uniformly and at correct max torque setting? I would expect much better than 1.5 MOA for any Sako or Tikka rifle. I've owned 3 Sakos and 4 Tikkas. All shot significantly better than MOA out of the box with commercial store bought ammo. My latest .243 Tikka shoots, using a 4X14 Nikon scope, .67MOA at 100yds and .56 MOA at 200yds !. using store bought Hornady ammo, shooting off a home made bench that sits on concrete sono tubes, using a bag of bird seed as a rest. Your Sako should be doing better than 1.5 MOA.

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We're going to go to a gunsmith to take a look at the torque of the scope screws and the action screws as we're not too sure what exactly the specs are supposed to be.
However there are no loose screws at all on the rings and we make sure they're tight, not "strip the screw" tight, but definitely tight. We installed it the same way we installed all our other scopes which we never had any issues with.

So far I've eliminated the possibility of shooter error as both me and my dad have shot it with the same results and we're stacking shots on top of eachother with our other rifles.
I'm also just super curious as to why the much cheaper vortex scope worked so much better than a top of the line Zeiss scope 4x it's price and we installed them both the exact same way. Any ideas?

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Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic

We're going to go to a gunsmith to take a look at the torque of the scope screws and the action screws as we're not too sure what exactly the specs are supposed to be.
However there are no loose screws at all on the rings and we make sure they're tight, not "strip the screw" tight, but definitely tight. We installed it the same way we installed all our other scopes which we never had any issues with.

So far I've eliminated the possibility of shooter error as both me and my dad have shot it with the same results and we're stacking shots on top of eachother with our other rifles.
I'm also just super curious as to why the much cheaper vortex scope worked so much better than a top of the line Zeiss scope 4x it's price and we installed them both the exact same way. Any ideas?

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I’ll ask again. Have you checked the crown?

Action screws - try 35 inch pounds. Both same.

Are you recoil sensitive?

A 2000 dollar scope means little to nothing. It sounds to me like you may have slippage in the scope and rings. Look at the ziess, is there evidence of the scope possibly moving in the rings under recoil? I had one doing that once and it was a pain to figure out. It was a heavy recoil gun.

If you don’t own a wheeler torque screwdriver, buy one if you can find one. Takes the guess work right out of it. Have you used removable version of loctite on the bases?

How heavy is the trigger pull? My brothers S20 needed some adjustment if I remember correctly. People don’t often realize how much a heavy trigger affects accuracy.

I loaded 6 test loads for that s20 and all were .5-1.25 at 100. Factory hammerheads also shot really well but my loads were heavier and faster which is what he wanted for moose.

Finally, with the new scope and 1.5 inch groups instead of 3, you may have solved most of the problem. that change speaks to mounting issues. Heavy recoil guns make things move that would not happen same way with say a 243.

Have you tried the other ammo again?

I have found federal fusion to have some really great properties in the big calibre stuff. One foot per second spread, great accuracy etc.

I ditto what Jack is saying. Order a Wheerler Fat Wrench online. I think mine was $70 and it was worth the purchase. Use it to check all your action screws, rings, and base torques.It does 10 to 60 inch pounds and comes with 10 crew driver tips. I torque based on the crew size that comes with the base/rings. Here's the settings from the Wheeler manual, based on the size of the fastening screws:

6-32 UNC, 6-40 UNF, and 6-48 FINE screws - use 18 to 20 inch pounds
8-32 UNC, 8-36 UNF, and 8-40 FINE screws - use 28-30 inch pounds
10-24 UNC and 10-32UNF screws - 40-45 inch pounds.

I have Optilok bases and rings on my Sakos and Tikkas. I torque to 30 inch pounds +/- 2 inch pounds on all screws (for .243 and .270) and seal all with blue Locktite. I've had several friends who had scoped rifles that were not shooting consistantly. Common theme was they had mounted the scope themselves without a torque screwdriver, and didn't Locktite. Just this past November my friend came cursing to me with his new Accutrigger .308 Savage. He had spent almost $300 in ammo trying to get it to shoot. He'd get about a 2" group at 100meters. When we checked with the Fat Wrench, the torque settings were not uniform, and in many cases were too tight. In a single ring series of four mounting screws we found 18, 24,38, 32. inch pounds. We used the wrench to adjust all 8 ring crews to a uniform 30 +/- 2inch pounds . His base was about 28 and 34. We used wrench to set them at 34 inch pounds, then Locktighted everything. The gun now cloverleafs and it's held its zero. The problem was definately his scope mount job.

Get a Fat Wrench and do what Jack said since it's a big kicking caliber - torgue to 35 and spank the blue Locktite to it!

https://www.amazon.ca/Wheeler-710909...s%2C924&sr=8-5
Here's what you need. You'll have it in a few days. Looks like the price has gone up since I got mine. Just rub some dirt on the box when you get it and tell your Pappy that you found the damn thing in the ditch when you were driving home.

Oops - previous one is digital. Here's the non-digital model that I have for $82
https://www.amazon.ca/Wheeler-Firear...s%2C334&sr=8-1

Update.

The action screws were a bit loose and we tightened them up. The groups tightened up to around 1.25" at 100 yards which is ok but still satisfactory. The first shot would go high and the next two land right next to eachother. So we took a closer look at the ammo. Some of the rounds were 0.5-1mm deeper in the casing than the other.

Safe to say I'm very disappointed considering this is MATCH Hornady ammo at $10/round... My dad is planning on starting reloading now.

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Originally Posted by MihajloSimsic

Update.

The action screws were a bit loose and we tightened them up. The groups tightened up to around 1.25" at 100 yards which is ok but still satisfactory. The first shot would go high and the next two land right next to each other. So we took a closer look at the ammo. Some of the rounds were 0.5-1mm deeper in the casing than the other.

Safe to say I'm very disappointed considering this is MATCH Hornady ammo at $10/round... My dad is planning on starting reloading now.

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Belated response, however, these things are always interesting.

Now that you have the action screws torqued (to Sako specs I presume) ......

Should you still have sufficient ammo left - an idea may be to group the remnants of that box by simply measuring COL and then shoot 3-rd groups (same COL per group) to determine which might perform better.

A CBTO measure would be much more accurate compared to COL. However, at this point in time, its neither here nor there i.e. till such time one gets to start handloading and have the proper tools available for such task.

Nevertheless, one may still be constrained by mag length limitation, as far as precise seating depth may be concerned.

Best of luck in your quest for accuracy.