Printable View
Does anyone understand the rationale for why they did away with group hunting under the new point system?
Under the old system anyone in your group who drew a tag pulled the whole group out of the lottery, then the tag was awarded to the hunter in your group who had got the longest without drawing a tag.
This used up all the points for group hunters, under the new system hunters who used the group hunting are screwed over.
Does anybody know why they did this?
Fairness in tag allocation for everyone,eliminates tag fraud by "ghost" hunters,ensures greater harvest accounting,it's the same system used in other north American jusisdictions where hunting pressure is higher are all reasons to adopt this system.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibb
Simply to be fair to everyone. The groups had a good run where those of us who don’t have 12 or more people never had a chance
now it’s simply fair. Sure it sucks for those who had an unfair advantage for years but I like it. Even if it will take me 20 years to get a tag if I’m lucky at least I now have a chance
Exactly liked posted above, it’s fair!
I like it!
Agreed. In our WMU,it takes 19 points to get a tag. I only have 8. At my age,I'll never see another tag and really,after the number of Moose we've taken out over the last 21 years of hunting the same area (15) I'm OK with that. We still hunt Deer,Bear and small game and we've decided to keep our camp going,so,ir's all good.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
Yep I agree it’s a fair system. I’ve applied solo when I was young, and hunted as part of a group. A lot of the camps that where always successful under the old system aren’t going to like it, but they had it good for a long time!
I’ll hunt in an area also in a group for the last 15 years and have never had a problem getting 2 tags and I think our group will not have a problem at getting tag’s for many years to come I think a big group will have no problems at all
its more fair than past years but could use some tweaking.
High point count hunters applying in a low point count WMU and you'll be guaranteed at least one tag. Our southern home area is the exact opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphy
Really fair? After the individual "lone wolf" hunters get their tags with this new system, if they are not part of a group, they will be back at square one and still have to wait another 20 years to get a tag. Groups will still have the advantage going forward having many members and by rotating members with high points, they will eventually go back to having the advantage. They will hunt every year while individual hunters will get a tag once every 20 years as you say it. So your so called "fairness" will only be temporary. Enjoy for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by FishHog
I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of moose hunters, hunt in groups. Groups that put in their time checking stats, relocating if necessary, will be more successful at getting a tag. For our group, a single tag is enough to get us into the bush !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
Exactly my point (no pun intended LOL) and fully agree. With this new system groups will still dominate moose hunting and group members will hunt every year by getting one tag per group per year. Individuals that complained they never got a tag because of groups will get their tag with this new system, but then they will have to go back to waiting unless they join one of these groups. I want to hunt moose every year, not once every 20 years. What fun is that!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
not saying it's impossible but taking a moose out solo would be one hell of a task. I've participated in a 36h recovery with 3 of us and it was insane and would have been way longer soloQuote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
Field dressing and carrying quarters out to a road or base camp solo is definitely a job for the young and physically fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanE
Not something my old bones would want to tackleQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
LOL. Yep,those days are long past for this old dude,too.Quote:
Originally Posted by huntnmachine
Let’s say a group of eight hunters apply all for bull tags. Their points go from 7 to 0 . In the area a hunter with four points could possibly get a tag. The hunters with 7, 6 , 5 and let’s say four were awarded a tag. The hunter with 4 years claims the tag.In the secondary draw the hunters with seven, six, in five points could apply again for a bull tag . Hunters with four points again had a chance at being awarded a tag. The hunters with 7, 6, and 5 years are again awarded a tag. Then let’s say they do not claim the tags taking the opportunity away from other hunters with lower points being awarded a tag and a chance to go hunting. This new system is not better for any hunter Group or individual. As for the hunter with 10 to 20 points and complains about not getting a tag I am sure has being applying in the areas with very little chance of being successful. Being able to apply in groups with one of the hunters have the required points for a tag than pulling the rest of the group out of the remaining draws would be better for every hunter. More hunters with lower points would have a chance at claiming a tag.
Yup. FairQuote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
Can’t stop people from hunting in groups if they want. But on an individual basis this system is certainly more fair to everyone
At least now a smaller group or individual has a chance in their lifetime. As opposed to before you had to be a large group or go way north
I guess we could make moose hunting a solo sport only to be completely fair in your mind but that isn’t going to happen so at least the rest of us now have a chance
Just because 4 from a group were awarded a tag doesn't mean they have to claim them leaving their point count unaffected. Smart groups will have a hunter with the most points claim an awarded tag leaving the rest to accumulate a point for that year. Don't forget that the other hunters only need to purchase a license without the tag to party hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphy
Areas farther north a individual will get a bull tag every year 4-6 years, Cow tag easier and a calf tag is almost a sure thing
some areas every other, so just cause some areas take 20 years to get a tag, its not all. Farther south fewer moose and more hunters so obviously harder to get a tag.
A lot of people hadn't drawn a tag for 15-20 years, last year a lot of them did. If the system didn't change they had the same chance as some one applying for 2 years, that doesn't seem fair.
If I’m understanding, why would the 7,6,5 point guys apply again in the second draw, if they didn’t claim a tag in the primary draw? Groups, to be successful, need to sit down, figure out what tags to apply for, and if any are awarded a tag, figure out who the best hunter is to accept a tag. Things to consider are the ages and health of each hunter, their work schedules and or time off availability. Successful groups will be those that put in the time and effort to consider all scenarios….Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphy
100 percent right,Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
If you don't want more then 1 tag no need to apply to the second draw, and if your group wants 2 tags the guy with the highest points is the only one that needs to apply.
If individuals and groups apply for only what they needed all tags awarded would be claimed. Being awarded a tag in the second chance is a very good insurance policy if the hunter claiming the tag in the primary stage could not go for some unforeseen reason other than the stated reasons. You only pay for it if you claim it. If the hunter with the most points is the only one to apply why would you want to use seven points when you could possibly get one for five points. Them two points could be very valuable next year . Again if you could apply in groups whether it is two hunters or 10 with one of the hunters with the required points pull all the rest of the hunters out of the remaining draws Giving hunters with fewer points a better chance at getting a tag. This would benefit individual hunters as well as groups
I'm not sure you're understanding what happens when a hunter in the group with higher point count gets a tag. When they accept it,they go back to 0 and start to rebuild points. That leaves the point count to get a tag to drop exponentially in each WMU. Even after two or three seasons, from simple point exhaustion, the point count would drop from a high of 18 or 19 to 10 or lower within a couple of years. The new system will quickly (relatively) even itself out leaving a fairer system after each season allowing younger hunters to participate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphy
As with the previous system, people can moose hunt every year if they want. For those that insist on hunting the same wmu with 25 points required, too bad. There were tags given out this year to hunters with 0 points. Those are the guys that enjoy moose hunting, not just camping in the same spot for 30 years.
That's exactly what your group does.....Excellent evaluation RickQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
I listened to the recent webinar, put on by MNR and OFAH. Kudos to both organizations by the way ! It was extremely informative, with lots of information given with respect to the process, moose management and possible future tweaks to the system. I found out that one issue that came to light, was that not all adult moose tags across the province were claimed. After the second draw period, tags awarded but not claimed were not made available to hunters. It sounds like they will be looking into this, to figure out a way to get all available tags out to hunters.
Yeah. I picked up on that too during seminarQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Hopefully they come up with some first come first serve system as 3rd round in July or something. As long as the hunter pays the full tag price for it from the get go, I think it should be a fair solution to this problem.
Sent from my moto g(8) power using Tapatalk
Considering one of the reasons of implementing the new Point based system was : it is alive and well in many other jurisdictions in North America-one would think, implementation would be well thought of ,and perhaps-flawless.
In the states, the units I have applied for when you draw a tag you cant turn it back you are going hunting, Hopefully they put that into effect and you wouldn't see so many people applying drawing tags and not hunting,Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
If you can play the game of applying and not having to except a tag your going to, I know my group if we were to draw a bull tag on the 2nd round it would not be excepted till the first one is filled,
Hunters really need to plan for future years and apply accordingly. Take last year for example, I applied for a bull in the first draw but was not successful. Since there were unclaimed bull tags for the same unit in the second draw, I applied for a bull for my first choice and cow and calf for the “free draw”. When all was said and done, I drew a calf tag with no loss of points. This year I should have a bull tag and the rest of the group will try for a cow or calf tag with no points lost so that we can get a bull tag the following year.
There was a previous thread by Ralphy where he had made that observation - awarded tags going unclaimed, denying others the opportunity to use them and costing the MNRF revenue. Perhaps there needs to be a system where unclaimed tags are put up for purchase, similar to surplus tags in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
In order to maintain the integrity of the system,allocating unclaimed tags would be counter productive as a conservation effort to keep Moose populations stable. That was the main reason for adopting the system in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
One would think that, but the MNR Bios set the tag allocations, factoring in a 100% claim rate. They consider other factors such as hunter success rates, hunter numbers in each WMU, actual moose inventory reports, etc to get data indicating the percentages of tags actually filled and moose taken. So basically, WMUs with high hunter numbers and high success rates, get a lower tag allocation for obvious reasons. They are apparently looking at ways to get to the 100% tag claim rate. No doubt income from those tags is a consideration as well, although I didn’t hear that mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Personally speaking, I’m not very concerned about unclaimed tags. Under the previous system, I’m certsin that there were tag holders that never ended up hunting… especially tags from the surplus “draw”. So nothing new.
Instead of a phone-in system, maybe the Ministry should hold an auction for unclaimed tags… some tags would go higher than face value, while others would go for less but at the end of the day there shouldn’t be any left.
Does anyone have the link for this webinar? Only webinar I could find was from 2021.
It was a live Zoom event. They said they were going to make the information discussed available on the web, but I haven’t seen anything yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchaser
Edit: Try here .
https://www.ofah.org/insideaccess/
How so? If the MNRF determine that a harvest of 50 bulls in an area will meet their management numbers, what is the difference if the tags are claimed 100% through allocation, or a combination of allocation and selling off the unclaimed tags? As long as the total doesn't exceed the number of tags the MNRF has made available initially, it is just 6 of one, and a half dozen of the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
One would think when the ministry allocates the tags that the moose population would be able to remain stable or increase or they would not have offered them tags. In area 21a there was approximately 187 tags awarded that were not claimed that’s a lot of money not going into the ministry pocket. Let alone The revenue lost in northern Ontario from gas stations grocery stores outdoor stores restaurants And many more. A lot of economic loss
I have hunted 21a a few years ago and there isn't that great a moose population, we were dissapointed as others we thought because of the high number of tags available that there would be a larger population of moose . Then sometime later i read an article and i can't remember where anymore but it said that the only reason there were so many tags available was to entice hunters to hunt there to try to bring down the moose population in order for the caribou to take over and if i remember right it was confirmed by mnrf
This is an old wives tale that circulates in hunter community..Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD TIMER
Last year, i saw a caribou during bear hunt, so reported the sighting as MNR signs plastered all over. Meanwhile, got to chat a bit with a very nice MNR wildlife biologist and asked this exact question
The answer was as follows:
Moose and caribou don’t compete for habitat and food resources. Their dietary needs are quite different, especially in winter when caribou subsist on lichens and moose subsist on twigs (“browse”). The vegetation growing on road shoulders and in recent clearcuts is more suitable for moose, so previous forest management practices tended to enhance moose habitat (often intentionally) and reduce caribou habitat (unintentionally), as did other human activities after Europeans arrived in the area. Caribou are already present in all the WMUs that you listed and several other WMUs, so the overarching management goal for those WMUs is improving the existing caribou populations while maintaining moose on the landscape.
Nowhere in the province (that I am aware of) is the goal to eliminate moose to free up resources for caribou - and our dept manages about 1/3 of the WMUs where caribou is the overarching management consideration. There are areas where the goal is to keep DEER out because they are carry parasites (e.g. brainworm) that are deadly to both moose and caribou and they support larger predator populations (also detrimental to both moose and caribou). Within the “caribou zone”, the general idea is to maintain moose on the landscape but at the population density they would have been at before Europeans arrived and altered the landscape. The issue is not conflict and competition between moose and caribou, it is predation. This is explained in the Cervid Ecological Framework and the Moose Population Objectives Settings Guide. From your email, it sounds like you’ve read those? I’ve attached them for your convenience, but they are also available publicly athttps://www.ontario.ca/page/wildlife-management
Wolf populations are closely tied to moose populations. Moose are their primary prey, but they will of course take caribou when they find them. More moose = more wolves = more caribou predation. The extensive road corridors created for forestry and survey lines created for mineral exploration don’t just provide more browse for moose, they also make it possible for wolves to travel long distances quickly and find the trail of prey that crossed the road/survey line. Wolves use human-made roads for the same reason as human hunters: it increases their hunting success. That’s why the forest management plan includes requirements to “decommission” roads (turn them back into forest). BC and a few other places have tried doing wolf culls to protect caribou, but that has proven to be ineffective for long term management. As long as there is lots of food (moose, deer, young bears), wolf populations bounce back to their original level within a few of years. You have to keep doing culls every 2-4 years and that is very expensive. A cull is a lot more intensive than a hunt or a bounty. In remote areas (ie most of the caribou range) it requires helicopters with sharpshooters on board.
FYI, the caribou range assessment reports for several other parts of the province are available here:https://www.ontario.ca/page/caribou-boreal-population. See the map below for the location of all the different forest-dwelling woodland caribou ranges in Ontario (in the site area north of Attawapiskat it’s mainly barren ground caribou, which is the type of caribou most people think of when they hear caribou)
Sent from my moto g(8) power using Tapatalk