How many precent of Moose hunters are not picking up the assigned Moose tag ?
After second allocation
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How many precent of Moose hunters are not picking up the assigned Moose tag ?
After second allocation
I did not take a bull tag that was awarded to me.
Our group had 2 tags already.
I didn’t accept my bull tag in the first draw as we had enough without it. I drew a calf tag in the second… I may not buy that one either, we’ll see!
All these unclaimed tags eventually end up in the second and third choice as random draw which is why it's worth applying in those and the fact that you don't lose your points and actually gain one
I think-not challenging you,but since the timing is such -they all end up in Second Chance Allocation Stage- all 3 choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD TIMER
First likely they feed the 1st choice,and if any leftover-then they go 2 nd and 3 rd choices.
My biggest question would be : what happens with the NOT claimed tags from all 3 choices of the second allocation stage?
Someone mentioned here a while ago - huge number of tags were not claimed in 2021.........?
Outcome of the new system.
If true-depriving the willing ,able and keen from attaining a tag/go hunting.
All second chance tags do not have to be claimed. If not claimed, they don't go back for a third chance draw and will not be available to anyone else that may want to go - they are wasted.
This is a major flaw of this new system.
In wmu. 21a in 2021 there were 187 tag approx. that were awarded and not claimed in the second chance. In 15b there was a lot more not claimed. For all those non group hunters in the southern units that complained about not getting a tag for years and years are still only going to get their 1 or 2 moose hunts in their lifetime. This is by far a better system for groups. But for sure the Mnr. Can sure waste tags.
So,then after 2 years of lessons learned (if willing too)the MNRF could make changes,to improve fair access to tags.
Few ideas:
-Add 3 chance draw.There is enough time for this ,from Aug 1st -till season start ,to do so.
-Limit "not picking up"tag options,by motivating tag pick up(either by preventing drawn tag holders to not pickup tags at second draw-or :if one gives up tags 2 x in a row,no choice to apply the 3 rd time until once not picked up a tag,or implementing the 3 rd draw only for the ones not got drawn for a tag yet in that year.)
Many options to make the system more fair.
Of course,if MNRF is interested in this.
These unclaimed tags also are creating another potential problem: they are encouraging illegal activity as some potential tag claimants may be tempted to claim the tag only after they harvest an animal. I hope that the MNRF fully investigates any tags claimed and used during the open season for this reason.
It would be far better to give second chance "winners" 2 weeks or so to claim the tags and then put any unclaimed tags in a surplus tag pool, that then would be available on a first come first served basis as was done previously.
However I have a feeling that this was by MNRF design to reduce the numbers of hunters and animal harvested.
I'm not convinced that's a flaw. I think that's exactly how the system was designed to make tags available only for those who qualify in specific areas where it's been deemed that the area can sustain a precise harvest for heard management leaving other areas unaffected to stop over harvest in some areas and under harvest in others. By leaving unclaimed tags unissued,that ensures tags aren't issued in areas where the balance could be upended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahuntr300
The new system was very well explained in the webinar, put on by OFAH and MNR. I would suggest guys look it up and watch it. I learned a lot from it, with respect to how tags are allocated. The issue of unclaimed tags after the second draw was addressed, with the MNR going to explore ways to get all allocated tags claimed. I’m of the opinion that any tag not claimed, could result in one more moose to get a chance at in the following year. The allocation is based on a few things. Moose numbers, past hunter success rates, and hunter numbers in any given WMU. The MNR allocate tags to keep good moose numbers in each WMU. Basically, the MNR would like all allocated tags to be claimed.
Thanx RickQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The issue of unclaimed tags -That is quite encouraging-hopefully they will not take 4-5 years to fix the issue.
...any tag not claimed, could result in one more moose -no challenge but with hunter success rate at 20 % or so,i think every moose tag not issued is a wasted opportunity to keep Ontario hunters happy(if that matters at all....)
Basically, the MNR would like all allocated tags to be claimed. And that is how it should be-properly decide about the number of tags available,than make a system, to have them used up.
After all-if they keep doing this......we will see tag prices go thru the roof(lost revenue at unsold tags will need to be made up elsewhere)
The hunters that are complaining about tags being wasted, don't hunt the area where the tags are left,
Matt bud, I don't see here who is complaining - it is a fact, they are being wasted / unused. Even the MNRF is saying this and encouraging people to claim their tags.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt86
I don't understand what you mean that the people that are complaining don't hunt the areas where the tags are - please elaborate!
getting hunters to pay will solve it. if one is successfull in the draw, that means they just bought a moose licence and the tag they won. only option is to print it till end of season, or not .. kinda like deer.
And how did You come to THAT conclusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt86
If You would share with the rest of us, where are those areas,AND how to find that data BEFORE the draws/or at all........i believe many would like to know?
I think the primary and secondary draw is set up good the way it is, except for the wasted tags. Maybe have a 2 week window to purchase your secondary draw tag, then have a 1 day phone in for the unclaimed tags with the successfully hunters keeping their points but paying the required fee for the tag. I am pretty sure every tag would be gobbled up. A lot more hunters would be able to go for a hunt. A great week or two, successful or not
Wasted tags are good for the Moose population.
You are right on that one but not for the hunter or group that was not successful In being awarded a tag in the draws.I wonder if hunters apply in the second chance with no intention of claiming the tag?
I agree with that
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
Yep, happens a lot more than you would want to knowQuote:
Originally Posted by Ralphy
And why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
If the MNRF-as they claim,do their analysis, and come up with the number of tags to be available-those moose tags are OK to be attained.
Considering the average hunter success rate at about 20% , it is actually unfairly taking away opportunities from many many hunters, who want to hunt.
The more we look into it,the more it seems that the new system (without mandatory claiming of the tag awarded )actually works as -push out other guys from the hunt(competition perhaps?!) by applying for the tag, getting the tag, then not claiming the tag.
Why apply if no intention claiming the tag?
Every awarded and not claimed tag actually does pushes out our fellow hunter/hunters,no matter what we say.
And in the old draw we had all the crying about ghost hunters taking opportunities away from other hunters. If this is really true, we now have a draw that is much worse. With the stats to back it up.
After reading this thread, I read the government page regarding the allocation system. I noticed they even have a brief paragraph -
Consider other hunters in the second chance allocation
If you choose not to claim tag awarded in the primary allocation, the tag will become available to other hunters in the second chance allocation. However, if you choose not to claim a tag awarded to you in the second chance allocation, this means nobody will be able to claim that tag, and other hunters may miss the moose hunt entirely.
Please do not apply for a tag in the second chance allocation if you do not intend to claim it.
Yep,25 % of all available tags went to waste!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphy
4500 tags out of 17000 .Just dug it out few minutes ago.....
We can estimate 18000 hunters(4 hunter per tag avg) were DENIED access to hunting last year!
MNRF claims,they set harvest quota numbers at 50 % for bull moose harvest!
If so-:That makes MORE then 1200 bull moose tags wasted.
(About 13 % of bull tags available AND awarded were not claimed in 2021)
We need to know,that 99% of all available bull tags were AWARDED thru first and second stage!!!!
That number is huge, I wonder if people are reluctant to use points because the system is so new, which would skew the statistics. Although you would have to intentionally enter the second draw. Maybe there are a lot of group members who were successful second draw so only took what they needed?Quote:
Originally Posted by gbk
I can't see that many hunters having malicious intent but who's really to say?
Only MNRF can help this to be straightened out.Quote:
Originally Posted by dean.f
They own the system, and people are people. Will use everything to their advantage, regardless of the next guy.
Some may do it on purpose(malicious)some just do it because they can -regardless AND ignoring the hurt they cause.
I agree, if there's no deterrent I have no doubt people will apply anyway to see what they get.
Now you guys get it.
This is grossly unfair to those that want to go but cannot get a tag as the tags are basically reserved for second chance applicants until the end of the season, even if unclaimed.
The MNRF knows this and has known from day one of this “problem”. Why they still have not fixed it in year 2 of the system is the question. Maybe they want the tags not to be used as I said before to reduce # of hunters and the pressure on the moose herd.
From my experience the people I've talked to say its not fair, my group has drawn 7 tags for 8 guys in the last 2 years, 1 went unclaimed last year and 1 will this year because we had to put everyone in the 2nd draw to try a points free cow tag,
These people I've talked to say how is that not fair, well we drive 18 hours, then they call me stupid and say I will keep applying with in 5 hours they say.
So many tags went unused before there just was no way to monitor it because they were paid for before,
Post #17 by Ralphy makes a lot of sense, and would likely be well received….
I still think it matters more which area a hunter is applying for and how many tags are being issued for that area. It still appears that many more tags are being issued in far northern WMU's where Moose populations are sparse than in southern areas where populations are more abundant,but,there's more hunters requesting tags. Not only are there no tags (or very very few) being allotted,it appears there's a concerted effort to send southern hunters into the north. I'll use my own WMU 50 as an example where many camps have hunters with 10-15 points receiving no tags in either the primary or secondary draws,but,if thse hunters are willing to relocate to the northern WMU's,with that many points,there seems to be no problem buying tags in either draw.
AgreeQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I have 11 points and did not get a tag again in 49 and as you mentioned we see more moose than deer while hunting black bear and deer and several pics on our game cameras.
We drew 2 archery bull tags in 18A with guys that only had 6 points. Hunting moose in the early season has always been on my bucket list but I would much rather a 6 hour drive to 49 then a 18 hour drive to 18A
Yes Moose hunters willing to drive up north ,
can get a tag and can enjoy Moose hunting .
Hunters not willing to drive ... can not enjoy Moose hunting ..
They can enjoy collecting points ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by huntnmachine
Collecting points that won't do them a damn bit of good unless they all head north where there's less harvest opportunities. Doesn't anyone see a pattern developing with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by alfoldivandor
I don't get it ... Why ...
"where there's less harvest opportunities"
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I love moose hunting but at the end of the day it’s way to expensive now. Gas is outta control, 250.00 for a tag. Might as well buy a whole cow, it’s cheaper. It’s hard to find people who can justify the money. It might not be long before they can’t give tags away. I’m sure the locals are happy but the local businesses aren’t.
Good luck this year everyone, I hope you are successful.
Well said ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Murphy
I don’t agree with less harvest opportunities. Success rates are very good (relatively speaking) in many units. There are several units up North where I would not hunt but that has more to do with poor access and too many swamps.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Any form of hunting can be expensive. Even ammo is expensive! You can cut costs by hunting in a group. Most groups split on the expenses including the cost of tags. I really enjoy hunting and fishing, so much so I bite the bullet and pay for the chances to go. It’s hard to say no to fun and adventure!Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Murphy
100% agree with you SamQuote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Sent from my moto g(8) power using Tapatalk
There are opportunities up north just not beside the hwy ...
and even beside the hwy you can find a road killed moose to .... Ha Ha Ha
Just have to go where the moose live ....
Deep in the wilderness and swamps ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Lots of time to have a third draw. If successful you must keep and pay for the tag regardless(no give backs) as well as lose your points. Or have the tags available as additional. However if additional will still cost you your points if you purchase an additional. (additional call in first come first serve can be chaos though)
I just got talking with some hunters in a southern area WMU that are a prime example of why this system is flawed. They have always believed in shooting only bull moose. They don't believe that other hunters should be shooting cows or calves. They know roughly the amount of points to get their bull tag so they apply their hunters with the most points for bulls in allocation 1. Then when it comes to the second allocation, the guys that have enough points for a cow tag apply for that. Finally the other hunters in their group all apply for calf tags. Their group received 8 calf tags and 1 cow tag that they didn't claim.
They were bragging about how they are preserving the moose population so that they will have more bulls to shoot down the road. The problem with this system is that they are taking tags away from hunters that now have no chance to go hunting. You would think that the ministry would look at all the lost revenue in tags and come out with a fix.
There needs to be a 3rd allocation that is only available to hunters that have applied to the 2nd allocation and were unsuccessful. Any hunters that applied to the 2nd allocation that received a tag and didn't claim it should be excluded from the 3rd allocation. In the 3rd allocation you shouldn't be able to change your options (WMU bull/cow/calf). It should be the same as your 2nd allocation application. I know this is all complicated and there may still be some loop holes that I've missed considering, but something has to be done to stop this from happening.
The ministry also needs to publish a breakdown of 2nd allocation unclaimed tags bull/cow/calf by WMU. I think the results would be very telling.