Goodbye Southern Ontario Ruffed Grouse?

I've just travelled 59km on my fat bike through my traditional grouse hunting haunts near Kinmount/Minden area. Much of it is through good to excellent grouse habitat where I've harvested hundreds of birds in the past 45 years of hunting. My total bird count was zero! Not even one single bird was flushed or seen. Incredible! It's literally extirpation of the species.
Back in the early 90's I would have seen at least 25 birds, even in poor years. I would mark 1994 -1996 as the last "half decent" hunting years where you could expect to get five or six birds with a dog in about four hours of hunting. Now you can hunt for four hours and not even fire a shot. Last December I looked for budding birds after the first snows and I might have seen three birds in total for 50+ hours of travel. There would have easily been 120+ birds in an effort like this back in the early nineties. West Nile is all I can figure , from reading all the literature. It's not habitat degeneration and it's not hunting pressure. Now my area has lousy waterfowl hunting and non-existent grouse hunting. Time to move north of Gogama/Timmins? I feel bad for my poor black Lab. I'll have to drive eight hours north now if I want him to pick up a few birds during the season.

Birds of any kind seem scarce.

Must be a local thing as seeing more birds than last year and some young ones to boot. Picked up 2 road kills north west of Barrie and North east of Beaverton regularly been flushing grouse however getting close is a different story.

South end of 55B - same thing. Almost non-existent. The last 3-4 years were pretty bad. This year takes it to a whole new level. Lots of wild grapes and haw berries. No grouse.

we see the same 2 or 3 birds in 73 in one of our deer spots just about every time we sit for the past 3 years but they are pretty scarce. even up on the islands in Georgian Bay near my parents the numbers are way down

Management of our wildlife( small and big game), and its habitat, is horrendous in Onatrio !

Same up at my place last week I saw one one bird near the cabin and nothing in the bush. Talking to a friend about this the other day and he blames the demise on the grouse on our very healthy TURKEY population. It appears that Turkeys are not very particular in what they eat and everything is fair game they can take. So raiding grouse nests would appear to be pretty easy pickings.

I can’t believe I’ve heard nothing from OMNR on the serious state of the species. The numbers are so low in north WMU75 and 60 that IMO the season should be closed to protect the few remaining birds. Maybe it’s time to write a letter as there is a massive elephant in the room and Omnr is saying nothing. Looks like I’ll be driving seven hours north after the deer hunt to get a few birds!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

Same up at my place last week I saw one one bird near the cabin and nothing in the bush. Talking to a friend about this the other day and he blames the demise on the grouse on our very healthy TURKEY population. It appears that Turkeys are not very particular in what they eat and everything is fair game they can take. So raiding grouse nests would appear to be pretty easy pickings.

---

I've heard this theory as well - backed by the evidence that grouse populations are not doing badly further north, beyond the range of wild turkeys. No evidence that the two are related thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenelon

I can’t believe I’ve heard nothing from OMNR on the serious state of the species. The numbers are so low in north WMU75 and 60 that IMO the season should be closed to protect the few remaining birds. Maybe it’s time to write a letter as there is a massive elephant in the room and Omnr is saying nothing. Looks like I’ll be driving seven hours north after the deer hunt to get a few birds!

---

MNRF's position is that grouse populations are not affected significantly by hunting - that's why the seasons and limits don't change in the face of declining populations. I would tend to agree with the MNR on this. Aside from the possible turkey depredation, other significant predators are hawks - but there is no way MNRF or environment Canada is going to allow anyone to do anything about this, and racoons. The problem is definitely not loss of habitat though. Thousands of acres of prime grouse cover, no birds.

Last spring in our Wellington County bush lot there was lots of drumming and frequent flushes through the summer. Now nothing. Very discouraging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

MNRF's position is that grouse populations are not affected significantly by hunting - that's why the seasons and limits don't change in the face of declining populations. I would tend to agree with the MNR on this. Aside from the possible turkey depredation, other significant predators are hawks - but there is no way MNRF or environment Canada is going to allow anyone to do anything about this, and racoons. The problem is definitely not loss of habitat though. Thousands of acres of prime grouse cover, no birds.

---

I'll concede that numbers are at a all time low but not as low as some would think. These are different birds and require different tactics if you want to get them. You won't find them standing on the trail wearing a sign "shoot me". Tuesday walked Stella down the trail on leash as wanted to hit a spot where I always hit birds got there turned her loose and found nothing. On the walk back to the jeep let Stella run the bush as I walked back on the trail. The Astro went off with a point alert 80 yards into the bush. Cut towards her just in time to bust a pair of grouse in a raspberry thicket giving no shot. Worked back to the trail where she crossed the trail and went on point and then started trailing. Knew we had a grouse ahead walking so scanned ahead to see if I could spot it. Creeped along 20 yards while the grouse had doubled back hid behind a big oak tree waited for me to pass then flushed keeping the tree between me and it. I hunt both sides of Simcoe. West side has had a 2 bird limit for years now and no real increase in numbers. East side has a 5 bird limit and seeing about the same number of birds. Quiet honestly would love it to drop to a 2 bird limit as currently feel its just a sick joke.

It truly is sad when you think about what we once had with regards to grouse and where we are at now. The very unfortunate thing about it all is that it doesn't appear that anybody who can do something about it cares to. The ministry is so preoccupied with the declining moose herd that small game takes a back seat. Even the private sector can't seem to get things done unless its on private land because of all the red tape and all the tree huggers who don't want anyone cutting down trees.
Fenelon I have a cottage in the area's you mentioned you hunted in and that whole area is very mature forest where the last time anything was harvested was probably 100 years ago...lol The ideal grouse habitat is young forest that is 7 or 8 years old and I just don't see that around the places you mentioned. I'm sure Turkeys might have something to do with it as well but the biggest culprit I would say is proper habitat. Further North there may not be Turkeys but there are other predators and the grouse are doing just fine and the main difference is logging......just my 2 cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

It truly is sad when you think about what we once had with regards to grouse and where we are at now. The very unfortunate thing about it all is that it doesn't appear that anybody who can do something about it cares to. The ministry is so preoccupied with the declining moose herd that small game takes a back seat. Even the private sector can't seem to get things done unless its on private land because of all the red tape and all the tree huggers who don't want anyone cutting down trees.
Fenelon I have a cottage in the area's you mentioned you hunted in and that whole area is very mature forest where the last time anything was harvested was probably 100 years ago...lol The ideal grouse habitat is young forest that is 7 or 8 years old and I just don't see that around the places you mentioned. I'm sure Turkeys might have something to do with it as well but the biggest culprit I would say is proper habitat. Further North there may not be Turkeys but there are other predators and the grouse are doing just fine and the main difference is logging......just my 2 cents.

---

Fortunately there is a county doing some cutting which has created better conditions for birds though its through secondary intentions. In fact they had purchased some private land I had exclusive permission to hunt. Was able to talked to the head forester hoping the plan was to continue to let the abandon pastures/fields be naturally reclaimed by forest. He said no going to plant red and white pine plantation as people want to see trees.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

I'll concede that numbers are at a all time low but not as low as some would think. These are different birds and require different tactics if you want to get them. You won't find them standing on the trail wearing a sign "shoot me". Tuesday walked Stella down the trail on leash as wanted to hit a spot where I always hit birds got there turned her loose and found nothing. On the walk back to the jeep let Stella run the bush as I walked back on the trail. The Astro went off with a point alert 80 yards into the bush. Cut towards her just in time to bust a pair of grouse in a raspberry thicket giving no shot. Worked back to the trail where she crossed the trail and went on point and then started trailing. Knew we had a grouse ahead walking so scanned ahead to see if I could spot it. Creeped along 20 yards while the grouse had doubled back hid behind a big oak tree waited for me to pass then flushed keeping the tree between me and it. I hunt both sides of Simcoe. West side has had a 2 bird limit for years now and no real increase in numbers. East side has a 5 bird limit and seeing about the same number of birds. Quiet honestly would love it to drop to a 2 bird limit as currently feel its just a sick joke.

---

That's more than a bit condescending...

I've been hunting the same areas for 45+ years - and I do know a bit about finding grouse.
I've bought 150 acres 11 years ago and have cut through it heavily in places. The old fields with thick fence rows with wild grapes, apples and haws are still there.
My brother had his ESS out a couple of times as well to places where we would always find birds. One flush each day. That's discouraging.

I'll agree flush counts seem lower than normal but the birds are still out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

That's more than a bit condescending...

---

Sorry if you took it as such, was not my intention. Not holding myself out as some great bird finder. Those who have hunted with me know I prefer to have my dogs 20-30 yards in front of me and I'll hack them back to keep 'em there. Main reason is I like seeing my dogs work and it works well enough for woodcock, not so much for grouse. If I want to see grouse have to go quiet and let the dogs range. One of the reasons I've gone with an Astro. I believe todays grouse are not the same birds as yesteryears and require a different approach.

Plenty of grouse out there , just keep moving around and you will find them. Just like any other game you have to keep searching and trying!

The best indicator of how severe the decline is in my area is the almost total absence of winter budding birds now. Once 4” of snow hits the ground, an easy estimation of grouse abundance begins when the birds go aerial to fill their crops before dark. Early to late nineties - head out to good mixed bush with a good secondary conifer understory. Best when the barometer is dropping and a storm’s on the way. Easy for one person to locate 10 - 30+ birds in under two hours if you know what tree species to focus on. You’d often see family groups of 4 to 7 birds in one tree.
Now you can cover 25+km on a prime “budding” night and not even see a single bird! Bye-bye !

I agree with Vinni regarding the lack of traditional forest harvest intensity. Much of the former best pockets of grouse habitat were in areas that had been selectively cut within the previous 10-20 years. Much of Haliburton County was like this 40 years ago. In some cases entire townships (eg. Percy, Harvey and Hindon as examples) were reverted back to early successional states by essentially being almost clearcut. These areas have now succeeded to mid-age forests. You see the affects in big game and fur populations as well. These areas used to be prime deer range country and now they are becoming moose habitat instead. Some of the largest former traditional deer yards no longer exist due to the change in forestry practises. If you're a trapper, you would have noticed that at the same time deer and grouse were declining, fisher expanded their range dramatically to the south of their traditional haunts. They prefer mid to late stage forests, which is what we have now.

https://projectupland.com/hunting-co...ffed-grouse-2/

Looks like we are not alone - check out the above link. The US is in serious trouble as well. Some states are pending listing Ruffed Grouse as Endangered. Seasons are now closed in some states.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenelon

I've just travelled 59km on my fat bike through my traditional grouse hunting haunts near Kinmount/Minden area. Much of it is through good to excellent grouse habitat where I've harvested hundreds of birds in the past 45 years of hunting. My total bird count was zero! Not even one single bird was flushed or seen. Incredible! It's literally extirpation of the species.
Back in the early 90's I would have seen at least 25 birds, even in poor years. I would mark 1994 -1996 as the last "half decent" hunting years where you could expect to get five or six birds with a dog in about four hours of hunting. Now you can hunt for four hours and not even fire a shot. Last December I looked for budding birds after the first snows and I might have seen three birds in total for 50+ hours of travel. There would have easily been 120+ birds in an effort like this back in the early nineties. West Nile is all I can figure , from reading all the literature. It's not habitat degeneration and it's not hunting pressure. Now my area has lousy waterfowl hunting and non-existent grouse hunting. Time to move north of Gogama/Timmins? I feel bad for my poor black Lab. I'll have to drive eight hours north now if I want him to pick up a few birds during the season.

---

With all due respect, expecting to find grouse in the same location where they were abundant 45 years ago is wishful thinking. That habitat is now too old to support grouse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sidelock

With all due respect, expecting to find grouse in the same location where they were abundant 45 years ago is wishful thinking. That habitat is now too old to support grouse.

---

Nailed it. A good grouse spot is only a good grouse spot for 10-15 years max. You need to move with the grouse to proper habitat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sidelock

With all due respect, expecting to find grouse in the same location where they were abundant 45 years ago is wishful thinking. That habitat is now too old to support grouse.

---

Some of the comments on here show an incredible lack of knowledge. If a grouse is a hotspot all and only because it is a recent cut over, then your observation is correct. Any other case - hawthorne thickets, cranberry swamps, alder thickets, edges of fields - could you explain how these become "too old"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Some of the comments on here show an incredible lack of knowledge.

---

Now that's more than a bit condescending...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Now that's more than a bit condescending...

---

Actually - it was addressing another condescending remark: "With all due respect, expecting to find grouse in the same location where they were abundant 45 years ago is wishful thinking. That habitat is now too old to support grouse."

And then people wonder why the forum is losing members...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Now that's more than a bit condescending...

---

I'm starting to understand why forum members were complaining about the moderators now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

That's more than a bit condescending...

I've been hunting the same areas for 45+ years - and I do know a bit about finding grouse.
I've bought 150 acres 11 years ago and have cut through it heavily in places. The old fields with thick fence rows with wild grapes, apples and haws are still there.
My brother had his ESS out a couple of times as well to places where we would always find birds. One flush each day. That's discouraging.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

I'm starting to understand why forum members were complaining about the moderators now.

---

Good old pot calling the kettle black eh? As this was not moderated one should know why mods are still in place.

It’s been a few years since I posted or replied to any of these threads , but I decided to give my input on this one. I see that things will never change on here , after I was told to leave the European hare alone I tuned out . Seems things haven’t changed , it’s a hunting forum lighten up all… and no I haven’t left my favorite game species alone!

“Southern Ontario” is the key word in this topic! I’m going to shut my mouth about Grouse hunting in northern Ontario. ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Longears

It’s been a few years since I posted or replied to any of these threads , but I decided to give my input on this one. I see that things will never change on here , after I was told to leave the European hare alone I tuned out . Seems things haven’t changed , it’s a hunting forum lighten up all… and no I haven’t left my favorite game species alone!

---

welcome back, hope to see some post when the snow flies. Reason I became a mod because of lost members like you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Some of the comments on here show an incredible lack of knowledge. If a grouse is a hotspot all and only because it is a recent cut over, then your observation is correct. Any other case - hawthorne thickets, cranberry swamps, alder thickets, edges of fields - could you explain how these become "too old"?

---

I've hunted grouse over pointing dogs for over half a century. If that's "incredible lack of knowledge" perhaps you can enlighen me and teach me a thing or two. Like expecting to find grouse in the same location you found them 45 years ago. Talk about condensending !

Over the past 30 years, what has steadily increased as southern ON grouse numbers have steadily declined? Answer: average temperatures.

Sidelock, the area I hunt is in the Bancroft-Minden FMA (Forest Management Area) I’ve hunted this area for about the past 45years. It is actively managed under a FMP that gets renewed every 10 years. Some areas I hunt have had a couple of fuelwood cuts in this time, other areas are on a longer rotation for pole wood or lumber/veneer. You can easily focus on the best grouse habitat areas by using the plan to locate the harvest areas that have recently occurred. This always worked for me in the past. It doesn’t now. The birds are simply gone now. Not just a bit of a decline - I’m talking almost total extirpation. There’s obviously more at play here than just habitat decline. I’m thinking West Nile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenelon

Sidelock, the area I hunt is in the Bancroft-Minden FMA (Forest Management Area) I’ve hunted this area for about the past 45years. It is actively managed under a FMP that gets renewed every 10 years. Some areas I hunt have had a couple of fuelwood cuts in this time, other areas are on a longer rotation for pole wood or lumber/veneer. You can easily focus on the best grouse habitat areas by using the plan to locate the harvest areas that have recently occurred. This always worked for me in the past. It doesn’t now. The birds are simply gone now. Not just a bit of a decline - I’m talking almost total extirpation. There’s obviously more at play here than just habitat decline. I’m thinking West Nile.

---

Being in the same zone this is exactly what I am finding but I also find the snow show hare down drastically. So coyotes were on the increase and we always had lots of birds of prey.

So like you I am not sure what is happening, we have not been getting wet springs in recent years so less mortality there.

They cut off a few hundred acres of Crown land near me two years ago, so I think next spring God willing I will do a bit of walking and see what is around.

Hunted a piece of bush yesterday in Haliburton County. Beautiful day with almost no wind. Was in outstanding habitat for grouse (area was heavily cutover in 2014, lots of beaked hazel thickets, raspberry cane patches, nice interspersion of white cedar and white spruce left ). Had my trusty fat black Lab Bubba with me. 3.75 hours of tramping through perfect habitat and absolutely zero grouse, even with the dog. Put up three hare and nine different Woodcock, some of them flushing three times. This reinforces what I said earlier - the grouse are simply gone!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenelon

Hunted a piece of bush yesterday in Haliburton County. Beautiful day with almost no wind. Was in outstanding habitat for grouse (area was heavily cutover in 2014, lots of beaked hazel thickets, raspberry cane patches, nice interspersion of white cedar and white spruce left ). Had my trusty fat black Lab Bubba with me. 3.75 hours of tramping through perfect habitat and absolutely zero grouse, even with the dog. Put up three hare and nine different Woodcock, some of them flushing three times. This reinforces what I said earlier - the grouse are simply gone!

---

Was at hullet today had 4 contacts with grouse granted never laid eyes on them only the buzz of wings the garmin read points at 80-100 yards. Birds aren't sitting pretty anymore. They all have PhD in elusivity,

There was a lengthy study a few years back on West Nile virus and its impacts on grouse/turkey in Ontario...I wonder if the results ever came out

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FISH-ON

There was a lengthy study a few years back on West Nile virus and its impacts on grouse/turkey in Ontario...I wonder if the results ever came out

---

Good question. Had sent in some samples for the study. Should dig out the old paper work and try to contact the researcher directly to see if something got published

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenelon

Hunted a piece of bush yesterday in Haliburton County. Beautiful day with almost no wind. Was in outstanding habitat for grouse (area was heavily cutover in 2014, lots of beaked hazel thickets, raspberry cane patches, nice interspersion of white cedar and white spruce left ). Had my trusty fat black Lab Bubba with me. 3.75 hours of tramping through perfect habitat and absolutely zero grouse, even with the dog. Put up three hare and nine different Woodcock, some of them flushing three times. This reinforces what I said earlier - the grouse are simply gone!

---

During the deer hunt I was in the bush a fair bit and saw a good number of birds including four coming out into the open field to grab some dropped corn. Not tripping over them but they are still out there in my bush at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

During the deer hunt I was in the bush a fair bit and saw a good number of birds including four coming out into the open field to grab some dropped corn. Not tripping over them but they are still out there in my bush at least.

---

They're out there for sure. I think most people think of grouse hunting as walking a trail and shooting them along it. That's a northern Ontario hunt. There's plenty in the bush if you want to go to the correct cover.

I have seen more this year in southern Ontario than in many of the past years. I long thought the MNR was too slow at reducing the daily take to two, in reality a few years ago in southern Ontario you would be lucky to see two all season. The ones we are seeing are well educated, getting up at 60 yards ahead of you..

In the past couple of years I've noticed that what I assume to be hunting pressure has really kept the birds deep in the thick away from any trails at a couple of spots I hunt. They run, they sneak, they almost never flush until on the other side of heavy edge cover. Sometimes the only way you know they are around are the tracks in the snow.

predator control wont hurt

I’m just going by the areas I hunt, not one flush yet. I don’t hunt trail I get in the thickets and into transition zones and I have yet to flush one in my go to spots. There is No snow on the ground so I can’t confirm if numbers are down or birds are gone? But I’m not liking what I see.

I'm in WMU 90B down near the lake and there use to be good bird hunting many years ago and many believe with the reintroduction of Turkeys is the cause of the decline but in the past few years we have spotted them back in our area. My neighbours and I have agreed to not shoot any until more and larger family groups are established.

im going to be hunting beverly swamp this weekend in 87D, ive seen a handful of grouse there in the last few years and even got my first grouse there a couple years ago. I will post back if I see anything.

Whenever im there and i tell people im grouse hunting they tell me there arnt any grouse in there, even had a group of guys accuse me of target shooting back in there (not allowed to target shoot there) because they didnt believe i had been seeing any grouse. they were real shocked when i puled a dead one out of my hunting vest.

they are out there, but super quick to flush. I noticed when I would wear my rain gear I would never see one, I learned it was because my rain gear was so loud when moving around that they would flush from super far, or I would just not hear them because of my gear. I switched back to my regular quiet stuff in the rain and I would be soaked but started getting flushes again.

I'm a big believer in nature abhors a vacuum. When wild turkeys were extirpated in Southern Ontario ruffed grouse filled the habitat. Now the turkeys are back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lazyman

I'm a big believer in nature abhors a vacuum. When wild turkeys were extirpated in Southern Ontario ruffed grouse filled the habitat. Now the turkeys are back.

---

The turkeys disappeared when humans introduced the disease that killed off the local Chestnut trees. Humans were the ones to re introduce turkeys back into the Province. Humans were also the ones who logged and opened up more suitable habitat for ruffed grouse. Nature abhoring a vacuum I believe has a lot less to do with it that our impact.

They say only 1 percent of life remains on earth. The other 99% of living organisms and life has come and gone.

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishfood

They say only 1 percent of life remains on earth. The other 99% of living organisms and life has come and gone.

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

---

Talking percentages... a good thing to remember is whether it's birds or bunnies.... 10% of all the cover out there holds 90% of the game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cass

Talking percentages... a good thing to remember is whether it's birds or bunnies.... 10% of all the cover out there holds 90% of the game

---

Definitely they need 3 major things to succeed water,food and habitat. Add in low prey and they will thrive.

Not to much like the hot concrete even the people next time your in the big city look on the packed bus and tell me how many look happy lol. None of them they look so miserable hahah.

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

https://ruffedgrousesociety.org/rese...rus-infection/

As can be expected, this article off Google states that potential for adult birds to survive and recover from WNV is dependent on habitat quality. Areas hit by WNV will see more profound decline, and less chance of recovery, if only poor habitat exists.
I would class 90 percent of the habitat around my home as poor, due to lack of logging activity, by both private landowners and the Ontario government. The USA directs a lot of money into small game management and they actually fund maintenance of grouse habitat. I think we'll see the second coming of Christ before that ever happened here in Canada. Upland/small game management doesn't exist here. Maybe that's a good thing, as I don't see competent management being a possibility when the governing body would be the same group of fools who are going to "manage" our provincial moose population into non-existence within the next 15 years!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frank16

Management of our wildlife( small and big game), and its habitat, is horrendous in Onatrio !

---

Frank your spot on.

Example in Michigan - Gladwin Field trial grounds , 5000acres of grouse cover not for training or hunting ,strictly field trial .Just one example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sidelock

With all due respect, expecting to find grouse in the same location where they were abundant 45 years ago is wishful thinking. That habitat is now too old to support grouse.

---

What he said...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

The turkeys disappeared when humans introduced the disease that killed off the local Chestnut trees. Humans were the ones to re introduce turkeys back into the Province. Humans were also the ones who logged and opened up more suitable habitat for ruffed grouse. Nature abhoring a vacuum I believe has a lot less to do with it that our impact.

---

Who do you think caused the vacuum?

What about better land management? Get rid of the old woods for a rejuvenated forest for the birds to thrive in. If that's what it take for the birds. It's also recommended but never done to help control the forest fires. Only a handful of areas in Canada each year are done. Is that realy enough it's a win win.




Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenelon

I've just travelled 59km on my fat bike through my traditional grouse hunting haunts near Kinmount/Minden area. Much of it is through good to excellent grouse habitat where I've harvested hundreds of birds in the past 45 years of hunting. My total bird count was zero! Not even one single bird was flushed or seen. Incredible! It's literally extirpation of the species.
Back in the early 90's I would have seen at least 25 birds, even in poor years. I would mark 1994 -1996 as the last "half decent" hunting years where you could expect to get five or six birds with a dog in about four hours of hunting. Now you can hunt for four hours and not even fire a shot. Last December I looked for budding birds after the first snows and I might have seen three birds in total for 50+ hours of travel. There would have easily been 120+ birds in an effort like this back in the early nineties. West Nile is all I can figure , from reading all the literature. It's not habitat degeneration and it's not hunting pressure. Now my area has lousy waterfowl hunting and non-existent grouse hunting. Time to move north of Gogama/Timmins? I feel bad for my poor black Lab. I'll have to drive eight hours north now if I want him to pick up a few birds during the season.

---

Still lots of grouse in central Ontario. Saw over 50 this year in deer season thinking they’re down a bit in the cycle since I saw more last year and the year before. Have a group of six that we saw some of of not all of them on the side of the road up to the cabin almost every day in the hunt. I still find good numbers in good habitat, I was disturbed to find a dead grouse on the ground this year though. Hoping it’s just because he flew into a tree or something instead of west Nile. If some virus starts killing grouse like crazy then the north won’t do well as those viruses do better in denser populations. Still convinced though that there’ll be lots of grouse as long if there’s good habitat and predator control.

I spotted one the other day as it flew up into the trees but only the one. I'm in the Clear Creek area West of Long Point and for the past few years whenever I see one it's always by itself, no flocks, no pairs just a solitary bird.

I actually have seen a few this past season in Norfolk, more than in the past. Could be the cycle and weather conditions worked in their favor. Nice to see regardless.

Had a old farmer tell me the grouse disappeared after the reintroduction of turkeys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by longpointer

Had a old farmer tell me the grouse disappeared after the reintroduction of turkeys.

---

That story has been around for some time.... Turkeys came about the same time we started seeing opossums.. There are decent pockets of grouse in New York state that also has turkeys, and opossums.. But they have HABITANT....

I've been out shed hunting with the dog quite a few times over the last month or so. We've flushed at least one grouse each time. Saturday we saw one, heard another, and then came up on some turkeys. Looking like it was a good winter.

There's some logging still in those parts and I've seen grouse there. But closer to minden I hardly see any it's not even worth looking. But hey at this rate they will ban birdy hunting in a year or two due to bird flu.

I might not be saying goodbye this year. While walking our bush lot recently a hen did the broken wing routine meaning there's a nest nearby.

Out on my MTB in Zone 60 on Fri' and saw a hen and some little ones. My father talked about cycles when we were kids (I'm 62 now). We have 'yotes in our area which we didn't in the past.