Controlled Muzzle Loader Deer Hunt

Another successful first week hunt in 92D, with all nine tags filled by Friday. All deer were bucks. We usually pass on does until later in the week, but the bucks were very active, so we didn't take any antlerless deer. There were lots of does and fawns out, and if we weren't being selective, we likely would have been done by Tuesday. We sit every morning until 9am, have a late breakfast, and head back out at 3pm and sit until dark. New to us this year was an old cooler unit from a delivery truck that we used for hanging and cooling. We kept it at 2°-3°, which helped when we did our Saturday butchering, as everything was uniformly firm. We skin them out while they are still warm, which makes for less knife work, as much of the hide can often be removed by pulling, rather than cutting.

Great season and good job guys.
Looks like an eventful and successful week.

How many guys if You do not mind?

Good job!

Awesome and congratulations!!!
Admittedly a fussypants question. Is there potential for a fine if a CO stopped by given the tags are not actually attached to the deer?

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Originally Posted by gbk

How many guys if You do not mind?

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There were 9 of us.

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Originally Posted by Pioneerfreq

Awesome and congratulations!!!
Admittedly a fussypants question. Is there potential for a fine if a CO stopped by given the tags are not actually attached to the deer?

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I was told this year that as long as all the tags were notched out and kept in a drawer where you have the deer hanging that's all that is required if the MNR stops in. Until I see that in the regs I feel more at ease leaving them on the deer. Besides our camp is 10 minutes from 3 different WMU's that we hunt so it's easier to keep things straight.

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Originally Posted by Pioneerfreq

Awesome and congratulations!!!
Admittedly a fussypants question. Is there potential for a fine if a CO stopped by given the tags are not actually attached to the deer?

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We had this discussion when we were skinning out the deer and putting them in the cooler. We thought once the head was removed, this was the best way to keep the tag and animal together without getting heads and bodies mixed up. Also, we could shoot a deer of either sex, so having the head to prove whether antlered or antlerless wasn't an issue, although the heads were available if needed. We definitely were trying to work within the law.

Wow, great set-up and harvest. Sounds like a perfect season for you guys, congrats.

good hunt. guess that would be a question for a CO. Doesn't the regs said tag is to be attached to antler or ear, if you are not with it. Kind of hard to attach to a skinned deer. So the question would be when does it become processed.

Good job.

But hard to tell a doe from a buck in that pic. ,,CO may have a problem with them.

Congrats to you and your. That's awesome

Excellent hunt, Congrats!

We were talking about getting or trying to pick up a cooler ourselves this year up at the camp. Our butcher is an hrs drive from our camp and round trip is two hrs. We lucked out this year with the weather and not having to bring the deer up to him almost on a daily basis. Seeing your set up is definetly the way to go. Congrats on a sucessful hunt 9 for 9 is very impressive...

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Originally Posted by delmer

There were 9 of us.

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Wow-awesome. While vague-the regulation states ,that the tag needs to be on the animal (if no tag owner present)unless the animal is processed.
I do think-processing means-meat in the freezer or in sausage casing.
Cheers and keep it up.

Ok, to avoid further speculation, I looked it up. Hadn't read this section in a while and I know things change so it was a good refresher. From page 20 and 21 of the 2023 Regulations Summary (the last paragraph is and the table on page 21 is key):

Page 20
Attaching Your Tag: You are not required to attach the tag if you are both immediately accompanying the animal and immediately available to produce the tag for inspection. For example, the tag holder may carry the notched/invalidated tag in a pocket while bringing the harvested animal out of the bush provided that the tag holder remains with the animal while it is being moved.
However, you must attach the tag if you are not immediately accompanying the animal or immediately available to produce the tag for inspection. For example, the tag holder must attach the tag if they leave the harvested animal at any time, including:
• transporting the animal in one vehicle while the tag holder is in another vehicle
• leaving the animal at camp while the tag holder goes out party hunting
• leaving the animal at a butcher for processing
Important: If you are unsure about whether or not to attach your tag, you should attach it.
Make sure to follow the instructions that come with the tag. Your tag should be accessible and visible for inspection purposes even when the tag is attached to the harvested animal.
The tag must remain on your person, or attached to the animal (when required), until it has been transported to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. The animal is being prepared for long-term storage when it is being cut, wrapped and frozen/preserved.

Then on page 21:
Species......................Tagging Location and Identifying Features
White-tailed deer......Attach the tag to either the antler or the ear, keeping the head with the animal

So the way I interpret this:
Tag must be attached to ear or antler if the hunter who's tag is being used is not with the deer.
Head must remain attached (along with the tag) until the deer is being cut up and wrapped for the freezer.

The other thing that is interesting: I guess you would need to have your deer cut and in the freezer before taking the head to a taxidermist. If you were going to hang your deer for a few days, I wonder if that would negatively impact the quality of the finished mount seeing as how the head (and cape) would need to stay attached while hanging.

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Originally Posted by JUDGE

Good job.

But hard to tell a doe from a buck in that pic. ,,CO may have a problem with them.

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As I mentioned, our controlled hunt allowed for any deer (antlered or antlerless) to be taken, so there was no need to be able to identify the sex of the animal. But yes, that could be an issue in cases where the sex of the deer needs to be determined.

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Originally Posted by Pioneerfreq

Ok, to avoid further speculation, I looked it up. Hadn't read this section in a while and I know things change so it was a good refresher. From page 20 and 21 of the 2023 Regulations Summary (the last paragraph is and the table on page 21 is key):

Page 20
Attaching Your Tag: You are not required to attach the tag if you are both immediately accompanying the animal and immediately available to produce the tag for inspection. For example, the tag holder may carry the notched/invalidated tag in a pocket while bringing the harvested animal out of the bush provided that the tag holder remains with the animal while it is being moved.
However, you must attach the tag if you are not immediately accompanying the animal or immediately available to produce the tag for inspection. For example, the tag holder must attach the tag if they leave the harvested animal at any time, including:
• transporting the animal in one vehicle while the tag holder is in another vehicle
• leaving the animal at camp while the tag holder goes out party hunting
• leaving the animal at a butcher for processing
Important: If you are unsure about whether or not to attach your tag, you should attach it.
Make sure to follow the instructions that come with the tag. Your tag should be accessible and visible for inspection purposes even when the tag is attached to the harvested animal.
The tag must remain on your person, or attached to the animal (when required), until it has been transported to the site of processing and is being prepared for long-term storage. The animal is being prepared for long-term storage when it is being cut, wrapped and frozen/preserved.

Then on page 21:
Species......................Tagging Location and Identifying Features
White-tailed deer......Attach the tag to either the antler or the ear, keeping the head with the animal

So the way I interpret this:
Tag must be attached to ear or antler if the hunter who's tag is being used is not with the deer.
Head must remain attached (along with the tag) until the deer is being cut up and wrapped for the freezer.

The other thing that is interesting: I guess you would need to have your deer cut and in the freezer before taking the head to a taxidermist. If you were going to hang your deer for a few days, I wonder if that would negatively impact the quality of the finished mount seeing as how the head (and cape) would need to stay attached while hanging.

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Great job posting this.Thanx

No expert,but i think head can be removed.Any time.

You just need to prove the sex of the animal(matching the tag).

Leave a piece of "sex organ "on the game-as a proof(see moose regulation for tagging bull or cow).I am willing to bet-that will take care of everything.
cheers

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Originally Posted by gbk

Great job posting this.Thanx

No expert,but i think head can be removed.Any time.

You just need to prove the sex of the animal(matching the tag).

Leave a piece of "sex organ "on the game-as a proof(see moose regulation for tagging bull or cow).I am willing to bet-that will take care of everything.
cheers

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Here is the part you are referring to on page 21:

Note: Be sure to reference your tagging instructions that are provided with your tag for more details.
Whether you have attached your tag or not, you must keep the relevant age and sex identifying features
with the animal (applies to deer, moose and elk only).

The confusing part is it says "with the animal" not "attached to the animal".

Now I want to do Ask a CO just because I'm curious...

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Originally Posted by delmer

As I mentioned, our controlled hunt allowed for any deer (antlered or antlerless) to be taken, so there was no need to be able to identify the sex of the animal. But yes, that could be an issue in cases where the sex of the deer needs to be determined.

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Sorry but doesn't matter. If a CO cannot identify the sex, they have every right to seize the animals and issue you an infraction.

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Originally Posted by Pioneerfreq

Here is the part you are referring to on page 21:

Note: Be sure to reference your tagging instructions that are provided with your tag for more details.
Whether you have attached your tag or not, you must keep the relevant age and sex identifying features
with the animal (applies to deer, moose and elk only).

The confusing part is it says "with the animal" not "attached to the animal".

Now I want to do Ask a CO just because I'm curious...

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Great idea- please ask then let us know.

I did not read that detail on pg 21 in the Regulation-but makes sense.

Hovewer-if You do not mind,while asking ,ask please what is the relevance and HOW to prove age of the animal.
Likely will not matter for elk and deer-but would for moose!
Even though the size of a calf is hard to compare to the size of a cow.Thanx

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

Sorry but doesn't matter. If a CO cannot identify the sex, they have every right to seize the animals and issue you an infraction.

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Likely sex is not relevant in this case-since the group had Either sex tags.
All of them.

If you read post 18 -where Relevance of sex is a spelled out requirement in the regulations(page 21)-the group met the requirements.

congrats on a fine deer hunt, I love that cooler set up!

Good work on the hunt, nice cooler set up.

When we hang our deer away from camp we skin them when they are warm as well. We place the tag in a clear pouch from the dollar store and attach it to the tendon. This eliminates any issues when we are not with the skinned-out deer.

A few years ago a guy in another camp was fined because his deer was hanging in camp and he had the notched tag in his pocket.

Guys, I hate to belabor this point but it's pretty clear that the regulations do not say that if you have a tag for either sex, you have permission to obliterate sex identifying features. This could be a costly assumption to make if you are challenged by a CO. Below it says that you must keep the head with the animal, which in my view means attached to the animal until butchered. Why take a chance for trouble.

With all due respect, If you do not have the head or sex identifying features, It will be up to the discretion of the CO if you just get a warning or they seize the animals and fine you, but the regulations are pretty clear that you must maintain identifying features. That way MNR can for example assess/verify how many does or bucks are harvested.

From the MNR Tagging regulations:
https://www.ontario.ca/document/onta...tags#section-3

Attachment 44729

"Summary of species tagging locations and identifying features
Species Tagging location and identifying features
White-tailed deer Attach the tag to either the antler or the ear, keeping the head with the animal
Elk Attach the tag to either the antler or the ear, keeping the head with the animal
Moose – bull Attach the tag to one of its hind legs with scrotal sac attached to that leg by connective tissue
Moose – cow Attach the tag to one of its hind legs with vulva attached to that leg by connective tissue
Moose – calf Attach the tag to the lower jaw, which shall be left whole
Black bear Attach the tag through the cartilage separating the nostrils
Wild turkey Attach the tag to the lower part of a leg
Wolf/coyote Attach the tag through the cartilage separating the nostrils"

That was by concern also.

I'm going to email to get clarification as what exactly "keeping the head with the animal" means. Does it mean physically attached, or can it be removed and stored with the animal, as may be the case of a deer that is being caped out for a mount? If it means physically attached, the wording could be changed to better reflect that by simply saying "keeping the head attached to the animal".

I don’t know but to me the animals were in the processing state and were being hung to bleed out and aged before the actual butchering took place. If you look up each tag was still with the deer attached to the hangers. And as mentioned the tags that they had and the controlled hunt unit they were in either sex could be taken. But I do believe some clarification is needed in the regs whether the head should still be attached or still in your possession until the actual butchering takes place…

I got a quick reply from a CO regarding what "keeping the head with the animal" means according to the regs. The following is an excerpt from the reply I received.

You ask: “If skinning a deer which will be butchered at a later date, must the tagged head stay physically attached to the animal?” The reality is that the tag can only be in one place or the other. Attached to the antler/ear as part of the carcass containing the meat, or attached to the cape/head once separated. The tagging instructions allow for the removal of the head and say to ‘keep the head with the carcass until it is being transported to the site of processing and is being processed for long term storage’. “With” can be “on” but doesn’t have to be.

So there you have it. The head can be removed, but must be kept with the body until the meat is cut and wrapped. The CO mentioned that their preference is to leave the head attached until processed, to prevent any doubt as to whether the removed head belongs to the hanging body.

Official answer from "Ask a CO"

"Tags for deer, when required, are to be attached to the ear or antler and the head is to remain with the animal.

There is no requirement to leave sex parts or organs attached in the case of deer.

If the hunters planned to leave the deer unattended (not immediately accompanying the deer) then the tag should be affixed to the antler or ear and the head should remain with the animal."

The guy that does our butchering asked us to skin and hang the deer in his cooler this year. No problem as he has an electric hoist that makes the job easy but in order to keep track of everything we used brown manila tags with the Tag number attached to the head and to the carcass that went in the cooler and the original Tag gets attached to our order form in his binder. So far no complaints.