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Where are all the bucks? In the last couple decades hunting in eastern Ontario, I'd say I see 1 buck for every 10 antlerless deer - maybe even less. Really sucks when you don't draw an antlerless tag or didn't apply for a particular area. Yet other people hunt the same areas and seem to shoot bucks with some regularity. Wondering how many bucks to does others are seeing?
I'm around 4-1 in 73 and 8-1 in 78b
we do and will shoot does and regularly get antlerless tags
1for 1 in my area this year.
How can we find this out Dan for other areas?Quote:
Originally Posted by DanE
it would be trickyQuote:
Originally Posted by gbk
it's tricky just on the properties I hunt. it's pretty easy to tell what buck is what buck from the differences in the racks but the does are a lot more difficult to tell especially on trail cam. I run 6 cameras on the property in 73 (400acres) and 5 cameras in 78 (500acres) lots of times in 78 you see groups of 5-6 does/fawns crossing the fields. so you can get a rough estimate on the number of does around then match it up to the trail cam pictures of the bucks. funny thing is most of the bucks we shoot are roomers that we've never seen before so that alone throws the ratio off
In 92B this season I seen pretty much equal buck to doe.
Mature bucks are elusive as they are solitary animals, does tend to travel in groups and move more during daylight hours. Scouting your property for buck sign may tell you more information, in my experience where the does are you will find bucks not far away.
I'd guess it's about 2:1 does to bucks in my home wmu. It's now been 10 years since we had additional(doe) tags in wmu89 and the result is folks holding out for a buck. In my main block of woods, 9 bucks were taken last year. 0 does. The wmu as a whole is seeing 2:1 buck to doe harvest every year. Predation and traffic accidents will balance things out a bit, but overall, it's trending towards a very poor buck to doe ratio.
You can download the harvest data excel file from the data.ontario.ca and view the past 15 years.
Attachment 44730
I saw 21 deer over the week on my morning and evening stands hunting 3 separate farms, 4 of them were different bucks. 4 or 5 of the does and fawns were likely repeat customers. One property in 84 where you rarely get buck sightings until October and a property in 85 that has numerous mature bucks all summer until they start moving out in October but if they make it through deer season they are always back the next season. Our group took 7 deer during the November hunt, all bucks, which is generally not the norm.
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I've got 2 trail cams at bait sites on 150 acres. Based on the pics I'm seeing I'm 100% sure of the deer count:
I started the season with:
- doe with two fawns (still there)
- doe with one fawn (still there)
- solo yearling doe (still there)
- four spike/fork yearling bucks (I arrowed one, my niece shot one, one MIA just before rifle, one still there)
- one small 10 point - he only showed about once a week (MIA second week of rifle)
Discounting the fawns, I started with a 5:3 buck to doe ratio but am sitting at 1:3 now.
The one thing very strange this fall - no transient bucks moving through. Not one - the entire fall.
In 92b this year in 4 sits I saw 18 does and two bucks. However neighboring property hunters shot 3 bucks along with my buck. Heard others in 92b say they've been seeing less but that's the most I've seen since starting hunting 10 years ago.
Hard to say but over the years we’re seeing lots of bucks on camera but during the actual hunt more does have been taken than bucks. However during the muzzleloader hunt more bucks have been seen than does and our group will only take bucks during that week. I’d have to say that the does outnumber the bucks 3 to 1
4 of us spent 7 days archery hunting in 93A. In total, we saw I think 32 "antlerless" and 1 antlered. We ended up shooting two does and a button buck (antlerless). Unfortunately, no shotgun/muzzleloader tags for any of us this year in 93 or 92 :-(
Can you tell me if that was 32 individual does, maybe verified by far spaced cameras OR could it be numerous sightings of a couple of does with fawns.Quote:
Originally Posted by wasa
I read some serious stuff , many moons ago, about the buck to doe ratio.
Vaguely remembered few things(mostly that the ratio can never be too dramatic, since nature corrects itself+ establishing this ratio can be more then challenging, ( working with numbers from game cameras and observations are not much more then a good intention)-so i did some research.
For the interested ones-please read https://deerassociation.com/reality-doebuck-ratios.
In a nutshell,see a clearly badly skewed ratio study,and how(considering skewed start and hunting impact ,as worst case scenarios)nature still corrects itself:
Interesting article gbk,
we observed roughly a 1:1 ratio hunting this year between trail cams and in person sightings. We could confirm (roughly) different individual deer through text message and by time stamps.
When looking at a local deer population, it’s important to look beyond the doe to buck ratio and consider the age structure. A ratio of 1:1 might look good on the surface but if 90% of the bucks are 2.5 years old and yearlings then there is a problem. You need older bucks in the herd in order for a short rut.
One of the misconceptions about the selective harvest is that if you shoot only bucks the herd will grow. The selective harvest can result in an over-harvest of mature bucks which isn’t good. In Ontario, deer are managed for recreational opportunities and not for balanced age structures. If hunters are seeing lots of deer (antlerless deer and spike bucks) then the belief is that hunters are happy.
Cant help but think that the long bow seasons and archers prefering to target bucks might skew the numbers esp. in the agricultural south.
Most all the advertising for products feature big mature bucks and educate hunters that to be successful this is what they should be striving for. I know of camps where they set standards to try only for mature bucks, I wonder if they really know the harm they might be doing when they think they are doing good not harvesting does. Its almost a macho thing that taking a doe is beneath them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
If that’s done on a regular basis, targeting mature bucks only there’s a chance that there’ll be no competition for breeding rights and eventually passing on inferior jeans and you wind up with a stunted deer herd. NY state is a good example…
Buck to doe ratios play a huge role in breeding and ultimately herd size and health. Only hunting bucks in an area increases doe numbers. Too many does when mating season comes around and a horny buck has so many does in heat running around the buck chases and chases endlessly. The result of that is he exhausts himself as he’s constantly burning energy, 1 or none of the does get bred, and less chance of double fawns. I will add also a higher winter mortality rate as his energy/fat reserves have been used up for times of extreme snow or lack of food sources. Result is less deer year over year.
The places in US that promote a doe harvest whether it be “earn a buck” or some other program, tend to have a healthier herd, a stronger rut, and most times a higher number of mature bucks in good physical shape.
There is no perfect formula for deer populations but doing this or that for too many years in a row and continually targeting one sex or the other over an extended period of seasons will most definitely change your local herd.
Most hunters watch shows on wild tv or some other hunting media and see hunters chasing mature bucks with many sightings during their sits. This isn’t something that just happens. A healthy doe harvest combined with passing on 1-3yr old bucks contributes greatly to the odds of seeing bucks of similar caliber here in our province. I’ve seen meat poles over the years filled with 10-15 bucks, spikes up to 8ptrs. The same guys filling these poles are often the same ones complaining about not seeing those elusive “big bucks”. If you’re meat hunting then that’s what you do and good on you, but if you have dreams of shooting some 140”plus deer then there are some options to ponder. I hunt for meat and prefer to shoot does, at times I’ll target a specific 4yr old+ buck if I have some evidence of one.
I can confidently say that passing on deer has payed off for me in future years and have seen the same bucks for 3 plus seasons before harvesting. I hold no disregard for a person that doesn’t share a similar interest and simply wants some meat.
To sum it up briefly though, a group of hunters whether as a combined effort or on an individual basis can and will influence deer populations in a specific area even if unintended.
I really don't know about my area. We are hunting 600 acres that is all 100-200 acre properties that are close together.
From the trail cams you'd say they was way more does than bucks.
Between 5 of us hunting we shot 4 bucks, Seen 11 bucks altogether and I think 10-12 does.
So much land near us that is unhunted, The deer don't stay on certain properties so I don't know how far these deer travel that we seen.
Good postQuote:
Originally Posted by biggamer
Maybe the MNR should consider a Doe only tag and save a few mature bucks in some areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by biggamer
I pulled my sd cards this weekend to check for movement the last 2 weeks before muzzy starts. Lots of does, looks like the same 5 doe group I had before gun season. Not 1 buck on any of the 10 cams that are in different sites, on feed, trails, as well as random spots. I had at least 5 different bucks running around on camera for the beginning of November, hoping some of them or different ones are available this week.
John
This thread is a telltale story of the contraversy of the doe to buck ratio debate.
We can read that it is very hard to judge,measure or monitor it.
Also-it is a clear sign how hunters think about it.
Heck : for some doe to buck ratio is as it states-for some,it is mature buck to doe ratio.
From helping deer population taking only bucks to outright nah.
From measurable ratio thru camera and hunting observation,to: nothing tells the true status.
Just enjoy the good times,do what You think is right......as we can see :10 of us can have 100 opinions.
I understood excessive numbers of does had the opposite effect on buck's health. They don't have to chase around to find does because there are so many around and more importantly, they don't have to expend energy fighting other bucks - which is very hard on them. It also makes the bucks harder to find because they spend most of the rut hunkered down with a doe - 24-48hours, and during this time they are not running the woods getting shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by biggamer
That's my understanding as well. The upper age class bucks don't need to travel to find a doe in estrus. The result is a lack luster rut experience from the hunter perspective. The lack of bucks and abundance of does also results in yearling bucks running themselves ragged trying to chase down receptive does to breed. And those are the bucks that will struggle months later if there is a hard winter.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Great input everyone. I've been out 9 times this year and seen 7 does, 3 fawns and one I don't know because I only saw its white rear end disappearing in the brush. Zero bucks. That is quite typical of my sightings year over year though. Oh, and it's not a matter of me holding out for a big buck, I just missed the application deadline for the antlerless draw this year.
The fact that mature bucks act very different than does and young bucks makes accurate observations almost impossible.
They are just way more cautious even avoiding trail cams. Just because we don’t see them doesn’t mean they aren’t there
Spotlighting at night where legal is probably one of the more accurate methods. Used a lot in the us but not an option in a lot of areas
1;1 in my area spikes and up
So our group hunted November 4-10th. Most of the hunting took place along a meandering river that flowed through farmland. The woods that flanked the river ranged from 10-100 yards wide. Although my trail cams captured a couple of bucks cruising through, no one saw a buck during the hunt. We did see about 7 does/fawns and got one. Another group hunted the same spots the following week and shot 4 yearling bucks.
What this illustrates is that it can be difficult to measure the doe to buck ratio on a small parcel of land. The home range of deer can be several hundred acres in size, and some home ranges overlap. This can result in deer entering or leaving a study area and confusing the data. Another factor that can influence the data is the number of hunters whose opinions are relied on to draw a conclusion. How many hours are they in the woods, are they observant, are they moving or do they remain in the same spot?