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So I am getting a pointing dog in a couple months and have been doing all the research I can into how to train it as it will be my first gun dog. A few times now I have come across things saying don't teach your pointing dog to sit until it is older, it will affect its point. Is there anyone who can explain this more? Or have idea's on what to teach it instead of sit as a similar command?
Don't believe everything you read. Sit , stay, laydown, leave it all good things to know even before you hit the field. If you're trialing than bother with a "stylish" point I like character so mine point how they like.
I have no real intent on trialing the dog. I might do an NAVHDA NA test just for fun or maybe one day try the UT test but the dog is just for the family and hunting so style doesn't matter
^Good adviceQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
I beleive what you read is trying to recommend you stay focused in your training and not add anything that will distract from that activity, other than some basic commands which themselves would be required in the field. I have seen people try and do multiple activities such as tracking and also protection (bite dog), these dogs typically will get to a basic level on tracking but later when additional distractions are added the performance tends to drop off.
Qualifier: I have no experience with pointing dogs.
But there is a parallel, in tracking the identification for the test is a sit and the article is a glove. In the real world the article can be anything with the scent in question, and the dog's identification can be anything the dogs prefers that is known to the handler. We let our dogs tell us what ID they like, which encourages independence. Independence is important as the handler does not know where the lost article (or person is) and the dog needs to be looking for it without preset interference from the handler. In the same way, a pointing dog is out there looking for a bird.
Go ahead and teach the sit command, if the dog was competing and sat while holding a point, a judge would tell you to leash your dog you're done, they don't want see that during a trial
Mythical nonsense. No pointing dog ever has developed a bad sitting habit. Your dog, among other things, needs to be a good citizen at home. If that includes sitting on command then teach sit.
On a side note, since you have not picked up your dog yet I would suggest you do some pre-testing with the pup for final selection, if the breeder allows.
Others on this forum will have more experience in pre-testing a pup for pointing then me.
Thanks for all the info guys. Makes me feel a lot better about teaching it to sit because I have young kids and that would definitely be a command that is helpful in control
no pointer experience, but think if it in a breed to point then it will point on its own with a little help from owner. I personally think basic training commands are important in any breed, sit, stop, come, to far and one of the most important the command to go pee. I believe a dog will do what its interested in doing and what you like to do. My lab doesn't like water, so we stay on land and she does a great job at what I do and need her to do. People tell me that I have the best trained dog, I always say it is all her, I just give her the opportunity to show off.
Its the old Nature or Nurture (or more appropriate Nature and Nurture) debate. Bottom line are you training for your desire or someone else's. As the one who feeds the dog it better work to my liking.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabmgb
The only issue with teaching your dog to sit prior to teaching your dog to whoa is the confusion of the dog. Usually training set ups have the dog on a lead, when you train to whoa you stop the dog with the command whoa, likewise when you train to sit the dog is stopped and with command will sit. When you use the lead to give the command the dog can get confused by the snap of the lead on the collar. . Some dogs quickly get over the sitting once stopped and understand the command whoa.... When the dog enters the field and finds a bird , the natural instinct for the dog will be to stand... Personally, I do not teach sit until the dog understands the command whoa. Whoa means stop, and as a young dog that is all I expect that dog to do. The dog when on a walk and I want him to stop and stay in place I use the command whoa.
For me training "sit" and reenforcing "whoa" are dissimilar enough that never had a dog sit on point. "sit" involves a rise of the lead with a push down of the hand on the haunch. "whoa" would be more of a horizontal resistance with a long lead at a distance. I like "heel" for "stay beside me while on a walk." In the end what matters is what works for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDH
So more or less you are using whoa in place of sit? As sort of a control method to hold in place, say before crossing a street, while waiting to be fed etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by BDH
I don't think it matters what word you use, as long as you are consistent with whatever words you use. For me STOP means stop and sit, this is the most important command to learn early. I only use stop when there is danger of her going somewhere she will get hurt.
My recommendation would be that you can absolutely teach your pointing dog to sit. However, do not use "sit" as your default command every time you're training or asking the dog to do something or if the dog isn't listening, etc. I think that's usually where the confusion comes in for the dog when you go to teach whoa. When dogs get confused they tend to offer behaviours that have been rewarded in the past. To avoid this take baby steps when teaching something new, especially Whoa training. And don't ask your dog to "sit" so often that it becomes the default for the dog when it isn't sure about something.
If this is something that you're worried about messing up than you can always wait to teach "sit" until after whoa training. Place training can often be used in lieu of asking the dog to sit.
Well if you want to teach it something other than sit the correct answer is "whoa". But if your dog lives in the house, "sit" is an invaluable command. Sitting and pointing are 2 very different things. You'll be okay teaching it to sit. My pointing dog sits and has no problem pointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by anglodrkns
Honestly don’t waste your time doing NAVDHA. Spend the time getting the dog on wild birds and teaching obedience.Quote:
Originally Posted by anglodrkns
Wild birds teach the dog. Pen raised birds which Navdha use to “ train “ with allow the dog to make mistakes a wild bird won’t tolerate. Too much training on pen raised birds isn’t good for a hunting dog. If your intent is to hunt then get it on as many wild birds as possible.
Yes you can do some training with a Navdha chapter to introduce the pup to birds, gun fire etc but that’s it.
NAVDHA doesn’t work in the real hunting world and just makes robot dogs.
I’ve seen it where a dog wins prize 1’s in UT then gets to the grouse woods and all the NAVDHA is out the window. Dog can’t handle a grouse.
Pen raised birds allow the dog to get way to close and that can spill over into hunting. Which can lead to a dog busting birds all tbe time.
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Absolutely true wild birds finish a dog. Thing is round here just not enough wild birds to work and the ones available give even good dogs a challenge. Wish there was some sort of high fence operation (1000 plus acres) were birds are always out would make a good substitute. If I was getting a pup in January the year would probably look like this. Jan-March basic training sit stay come yada yada. March to the fall walking in cover, bird handling intro and basic work with pen birds. Fall time to put it in overdrive book time off work as much as you can to work woodcock keep in mine you'll be working on finishing every contact than hunting. Once the woodcock are gone than work on grouse ( pray we have a decent hatch).Quote:
Originally Posted by BSP1
I’m not saying to not do any pen raised bird work but there is a limit to it and if too much work with pen raised birds is done it can do more harm than good. Specially when they start to catch the birds which can easily happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Even a few wild birds a week can teach a dog. Yes it can be hard to get dogs on wild birds but with some effort they can be found. The first season with a pup on wild birds is really just a learning season. They will teach a dog fast and with the right foundation like obedience etc.
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Navda training doesn’t allow dogs to learn to relocate. It teaches the dog to stay still on point to wait for the hunter to arrive. Grouse don’t wait around, specially educated ones. For a hunting dog you want a dog to relocate on its own. After all the dog knows when a bird is there or notQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
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In Ontario where are you going to get sufficient WILD bird to train a dog on. Birds do make a pointing dog! Where can you train in the off season on wild birds ethically and legally. You can train during a hunting season , you could catch migrating woodcock prior to nesting. I believe there are laws against harassing game in the off season, so where are the wild birds you speak of? Now if pen raised birds are used correctly, not allowing a dog to walk in , creep in on a planted bird it has learnt to hold that bird. A dog that points a running bird and waits for its handler is far more beneficial than a dog that points, decides on its own merits to creep on that bird risking the chance of getting too close and pushing out that bird with out the handler having an opportunity to be in position to shoot. To finish a dog to be steady to wing , shot and fall you will need domestic birds. If you have introduced and trained your dog with release trap correctly, be it with NAVHDA, a good knowledgeable dog friend down the road its adapting to wild birds will go relatedly smooth. Most inexperience trainers allow the dog to get too close and establish a point with initial release traps exposure. When the dog acknowledges bird scent, the trap should be released and the dog made to whoa.Quote:
Originally Posted by BSP1
Birds make a bird dog. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDH
One can head north and get on 20-40 birds in one day or weekend if you know where to go during the legal hunting season. So yes you could train during hunting season. And one day or a weekend in wild birds can teach a dog far more than a whole summer on pen raised birds.
Yes you should use domestic birds to train things like steady to wing and shot and other basics but you don’t need Navdha. A lot of people seem to over do it with the pen raised birds.
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As you can see there are alot of different opinions on how, when, where to train your dog. It can be daunting for a newbie as easy to feel overwhelmed. Just remember you'll be learning along with the dog and in time figure out what works for you. Listen to all and take what info works for you.
Stella's first fall of hunting was a mix of planted and wild birds.
https://live.staticflickr.com/836/29...b6637a88_z.jpg
Nova did all his summer training with one fat pigeon
https://live.staticflickr.com/4386/3...94f1dc7d_z.jpg
Though neither probably would win a trial think they work good enough for me.
Both your pups seem to do just fine in finding them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Thanks for the info everyone. IT is overwhelming trying to find what info I think will work best for me. I think it will just end up being a trial and error system and we will see how things go. I think I will teach to sit as we are around kids all the time and I do still think it is an invaluable command.
I think my big goal will simply to be get it out as much as possible and on as many birds as I can
That's how we all started. Its also what makes working a dog fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by anglodrkns
You are right. A mix of pen raised and wild is good. I’ve just seen dogs that trained strictly on pen raised and then went to the field and busted every grouse it found. Yet ir was a prize 1 dog in tests. And seen ones that did as you did using a mix that did well.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
I’m not an expert nor claim to be one. For me I looked at Navdha and it wasn’t for me
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and that's ok. I'm a firm believer if a program or organization doesn't fit or suit your needs it shouldn't be crammed down your throat or made to feel ostracized.Quote:
Originally Posted by BSP1
BDH is right. Obedience has to come before hunting. A dog is called, comes and sits beside the handler. Same thing with retrieved bird. Creeping and catching birds is actually eliminated through good training. Cheers.
Valid points have been made pro and con regarding NAVHDA. My pup and I have a year of NAVHDA and a bird season under our belts. Despite some things I would have done differently knowing what I know now, we'll be back with NAVHDA in the coming year, but with some specific training objectives in mind.
Like any testing or trialing system (AKC, CKC, NSTRA) dogs can be taught to excel at a fake game but still suck at real world hunting. Chukars in traps won't make a bird dog any more than sporting clays will make a person into a bird hunter. But when augmented/integrated with real wild bird experience, NAVHDA can be an excellent resource. But let me be clear: NAVHDA TRAINING DAYS WILL NOT TRAIN YOUR DOG FOR YOU. Instead, they will show you basic techniques (including proper first exposure to birds and guns) that you can then apply on your own. It will also connect you with experienced people, which in my case have been a great resource outside of NAVHDA.
some good insight thereQuote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
This a cornerstone of the West-Gibbons method. Pigeons (not chukars) and remote launchers in experienced hands can used to great effectiveness as BDH has described. Its how Kyle Warren (Paint River Setters) prepares his young dogs for ruffed grouse. From there they say it takes 200 wild grouse contracts for a dog to "get it". From what I've seen I believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDH
Pick a training system and stick with it. As a beginner, you don't have the experience and the understanding to mix and match. A pair of experienced eyes is invaluable, reading a dog is art and science, so try to find a good partner/mentor.Quote:
Originally Posted by anglodrkns
Also, about planted birds. I just watched someone train an adult dog which was trained on planted birds only and to me the dog would be worst than useless for hunting wild birds.
In ON it's almost impossible to avoid planted birds in training, cause we don't have enough wild birds, but their use should be only as required in achieving set goals (finding and pointing birds vs steady to whatever).
Some people want their dog to lock up and never move until released and to my understanding and from what I’ve seen that’s the “ NAVDHA way” Others want their dogs to relocate naturally. I’m in that group. My dog is a hunting dog not a FT dog and relocating naturally is what I want. Because a Ruffed Grouse, woodcock, Hun, Sharptail or pheasant doesn’t wait for you to get to the dog. They run and I want my dog to relocate on running birds. Which she does and does well for a young dog. Yes mistakes are made but those mistakes only teach her. She relocates just enough to keep in contact with the bird. All that goes against the NAVDHA way. So if you want a FT dog and to play games…. Train with NAVDHA. If you want a hunting dog get the dog on as many wild birds. Of course use Pigeons to train the basics but after that wild birds make a bird dog. The more the better of course. But even a few a weekend is still better than 100 pen raised chukar
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Great advice! Inevitably in any training system you will come to a point where you don't have the resources, space or equipment that the pro trainer does. This is where you need to get creative, find the work-arounds and tap into the advice and resources of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz
There is no problem with teaching a pointing dog to sit. The point is natural instinct bred into them. You just have to bring it out in them and show them why they want to point. Nothing better than real wild birds to do this and in the old bird rich days that was how it was done. Now a day's a combination of wild and pen raised will get the job done. Good flying wild barn pigeons are the best in my opinion as dog won’t be able to catch them. Use these planted to get the pup started, once it’s holding point shoot a few down on it. Then switch over to wild birds and don’t shoot any bumped birds. You will have yourself a fine grouse dog.
The worry was in teaching to sit before whoa work is that sitting comes very naturally for a dog to do and it is generally the first command that dogs learn , with some whoa training methods the dog would be experiencing some kind of external pressures in situational and possibly trainer induced and if already taught a sit command the dog may in some instances revert to a sit type of behavior to release the pressure . However depending on the temperament of the dog and how good of a trainer and the program in place its not an issue generally in a dog with a good introduction.
i have got both dogs who are trained to sit and some just to whoa both are valuable in getting to stop if the situation arises traffic , deer , etc.
Thanks to everyone for the info. The general consensus seems to be that training to sit is not an issue. There may be a needed correction come proper whoa training but that it shouldn't be hard to do as long as it is done properly