To bait or not to bait DEER

With all the scare about CWD,Blue Tongue etc,with the ban on the use of all animal products to attract deer(deer urine ,scent gland extract etc),with all them rules how to bring -and how not to bring in to Ontario Cervid meat / body parts or even the trophy from any other jurisdiction........and with MNRF stopping supplemental winter feeding of deer ,to avoid spread of unwanted diseases- should they ban baiting for deer?

In a name of greater good............i think they should, in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

Start planting apple trees, I don't think you're far off.

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Originally Posted by gbk

With all the scare about CWD,Blue Tongue etc,with the ban on the use of all animal products to attract deer(deer urine ,scent gland extract etc),with all them rules how to bring -and how not to bring in to Ontario Cervid meat / body parts or even the trophy from any other jurisdiction........and with MNRF stopping supplemental winter feeding of deer ,to avoid spread of unwanted diseases- should they ban baiting for deer?

In a name of greater good............i think they should, in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

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In the name of the greater good? What good? As far as I've read there is no CWD in Ontario. Blue tongue is spread by midges in summertime.

The existing ban on natural deer scent isn't backed by science.
The bans on bringing deer parts - into Ontario is a feel-good measure - nothing more.
The MNRF did not stop supplemental feeding to prevent the spread of diseases - they didn't want the cost or responsibility for it.

We don't need a deer feeding ban, and if we get one, it won't do any good. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist here - large scale deer farms and high deer densities.

not here yet, maybe that a good thing, lets keep it that way. there are a lot of states I believe are taking the NO bait to stop or slow down CWD. Maybe we should be proactive and do the same.

I bait mainly to see what kind of/ how many does/fawns I have in my area, as they bring in the bucks come boom boom time. The same group has this territory as its' own stomping ground and as far as I can see no other doe groups encroach on them. Even if not baiting the same group of animals would be loosely hanging out and doing deer stuff whether I am baiting or not. I don't see the use of a no-bait law as there is no impact during the season for drawing deer together except new bucks who are going to be in travel mode no matter what.
John

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Originally Posted by gbk

With all the scare about CWD,Blue Tongue etc,with the ban on the use of all animal products to attract deer(deer urine ,scent gland extract etc),with all them rules how to bring -and how not to bring in to Ontario Cervid meat / body parts or even the trophy from any other jurisdiction........and with MNRF stopping supplemental winter feeding of deer ,to avoid spread of unwanted diseases- should they ban baiting for deer?

In a name of greater good............i think they should, in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

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I think it would cause more problems and as Werner said attack a problem that does not exist.

I know a number of folks up my way who simply like to feed deer to have them around, others are retired hunters and want to give something back to the deer for all the years they provided hunting.

How would you square up a hunter hunting over a corn field in Windsor where the deer are baited in by the fallen corn and a hunter in the central Ontario big bush country who throws down some corn
to funnel the deer his way. One might be legal and the other suddenly an offender.

Almost every deer hunt featured on the Telly across this nation features hunters hunting over bail piles in almost every province from what I have viewed.

I will assume then that the outfitters seen on these shows do this for all their clients, so how would that affect their business.

I am in the same boat as poster #5, apple trees get them onto my place and its the same group of animals coming into the area. I put out a very limited amount of corn at feeders to see where in the back 40 the bucks are sneaking in prior to the season.

How would such a law be enforced, would we be empowering the MNR to simply walk onto private land for instance and check for violations or would they have to have information to act to form reasonable grounds to believe.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think it would cause more problems and as Werner said attack a problem that does not exist.

I know a number of folks up my way who simply like to feed deer to have them around, others are retired hunters and want to give something back to the deer for all the years they provided hunting.

How would you square up a hunter hunting over a corn field in Windsor where the deer are baited in by the fallen corn and a hunter in the central Ontario big bush country who throws down some corn
to funnel the deer his way. One might be legal and the other suddenly an offender.

Almost every deer hunt featured on the Telly across this nation features hunters hunting over bail piles in almost every province from what I have viewed.

I will assume then that the outfitters seen on these shows do this for all their clients, so how would that affect their business.

I am in the same boat as poster #5, apple trees get them onto my place and its the same group of animals coming into the area. I put out a very limited amount of corn at feeders to see where in the back 40 the bucks are sneaking in prior to the season.

How would such a law be enforced, would we be empowering the MNR to simply walk onto private land for instance and check for violations or would they have to have information to act to form reasonable grounds to believe.

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Interesting feedbacks so far-thak You guys for them.
Opinions-as asked for(no better or worse then my opinion).

Few answers-just as follow up.

Feeding deer from depth of heart is one thing-likely happens randomly,few and far between ,and feeding deer is not exactly baiting deer.
Baiting is time limited-with intent to draw in deer for the hunter.

Hunting natural food (cornfield)does not equal to hunting a pile of corn. Natural food placed by "act of god"or planted crop by farmer decision vs bait.
While the first two are part of life-the latter is a choice.

Just because TV shows hunters hunting over bait-does not make it any better.I think.

On a top-food plots were invented to mimic nature-and first and foremost ,to work around no baiting rules.
Yet they greatly differ(acres and acres of crop vs couple of square meters of bait).Animal concentration on food source is simply different.

As far as outfitters goes- deer are harvested with great success without baiting,in many jurisdictions ,so i figure-the ones rely only on baiting, will learn how to cope.

As far as law enforcement goes-i believe MNRF can and would be able to monitor and enforce as much, as they are enforcing no hunting waterfowl with bait / or not hunting bear within 400 m to a dump.
They are already empowered today to walk in/search/ question etc-we know that.What would change?

There will be always some bad characters-but that is another story.Most hunters will follow the law...as always do.

At the end-i think ,us having healthy deer heard in the future too-and great hunting opportunities, would need to override the urge of the few, to hunt deer over bait.

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Originally Posted by gbk

Interesting feedbacks so far-thak You guys for them.
Opinions-as asked for(no better or worse then my opinion).

Few answers-just as follow up.

Feeding deer from depth of heart is one thing-likely happens randomly,few and far between ,and feeding deer is not exactly baiting deer.
Baiting is time limited-with intent to draw in deer for the hunter.

Hunting natural food (cornfield)does not equal to hunting a pile of corn. Natural food placed by "act of god"or planted crop by farmer decision vs bait.
While the first two are part of life-the latter is a choice.

Just because TV shows hunters hunting over bait-does not make it any better.I think.

On a top-food plots were invented to mimic nature-and first and foremost ,to work around no baiting rules.
Yet they greatly differ(acres and acres of crop vs couple of square meters of bait).Animal concentration on food source is simply different.

As far as outfitters goes- deer are harvested with great success without baiting,in many jurisdictions ,so i figure-the ones rely only on baiting, will learn how to cope.

As far as law enforcement goes-i believe MNRF can and would be able to monitor and enforce as much, as they are enforcing no hunting waterfowl with bait / or not hunting bear within 400 m to a dump.
They are already empowered today to walk in/search/ question etc-we know that.What would change?

There will be always some bad characters-but that is another story.Most hunters will follow the law...as always do.

At the end-i think ,us having healthy deer heard in the future too-and great hunting opportunities, would need to override the urge of the few, to hunt deer over bait.

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What I get out of that is that you are against baiting in principle and are trying to rationalize a ban on it.
Your closing statement is flawed in that you are creating the false premise that banning baiting would provide a health deer herd in the future, while baiting puts that at risk. There is absolutely no evidence to support this.
If you don't want to hunt over bait, then don't. But trying to impose your will on others - well where does that end? No hunting with dogs? No hunting with rifles? No hunting with crossbows? No hunting with compounds? No hunting at all. It's a slippery slope you're walking on.

I would add that baiting has taken most of the big bucks after gun season and the rut is over. Deer in area 50 are very low. Hunting over bait in late season is hitting the population hard. Maybe not a ban all together but cease baiting Nov 1. Or stop bow hunting month earlier ? Gun is only 2 weeks. Weather/wind/pressure it’s part of the hunt. Bow isn’t like that. And late season is sit in a blind with corn out where it isn’t natural and wait to shoot a buck at 30 yds. Not really deer hunting … the way I like to hunt. That said
Banning bait for disease or any other reason is a cover up no science what so ever.
My 2 cents

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Originally Posted by choclab

I would add that baiting has taken most of the big bucks after gun season and the rut is over. Deer in area 50 are very low. Hunting over bait in late season is hitting the population hard. Maybe not a ban all together but cease baiting Nov 1. Or stop bow hunting month earlier ? Gun is only 2 weeks. Weather/wind/pressure it’s part of the hunt. Bow isn’t like that. And late season is sit in a blind with corn out where it isn’t natural and wait to shoot a buck at 30 yds. Not really deer hunting … the way I like to hunt. That said
Banning bait for disease or any other reason is a cover up no science what so ever.
My 2 cents

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I don’t see this kind of behaviour at all with baiting on my property re: baiting removes the mature bucks after the gun season/ rut. The norm at my place is that food plots/baiting draws the does and fawns into that area in early October . My cams start to show bucks slowly filtering in, with most of them being yearlings. You’ll see the odd mature buck but it’s usually nocturnal of the cam. They only make daytime visits when the rut is on, and that’s usually the only time you get a chance at them (maybe a three day window during the two week gun hunt). Everything then reverts back to does and fawns after the week of November. The big boys still visit but 95% of the time they are still nocturnal. Continued baiting gives you a chance to hold deer for the December ML hunt but it is usually does, fawns, and the odd yearling buck. I don't see this late baiting targeting mature bucks. It’s all moot for me anyway as the usual for my wife and I is two yearling or two year old bucks each year for the freezer.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

What I get out of that is that you are against baiting in principle and are trying to rationalize a ban on it.
Your closing statement is flawed in that you are creating the false premise that banning baiting would provide a health deer herd in the future, while baiting puts that at risk. There is absolutely no evidence to support this.
If you don't want to hunt over bait, then don't. But trying to impose your will on others - well where does that end? No hunting with dogs? No hunting with rifles? No hunting with crossbows? No hunting with compounds? No hunting at all. It's a slippery slope you're walking on.

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Interesting opinion.

If we look at the topic at different angle,like-all who are against ban on baiting are the bait hunters,and they rationalize around their need for baiting ,claiming based on scientifically not proven statements -baiting is a no threat.....?
Then exponentiate that stand by implying : other " limitations"can potentially be imposed on hunting, as they may be linked to a "bait or not to bait" question in a "Dime a dozen Thread" on an Internet Forum?

I am a little guy,and never thought i can impose "anything"on anyone............

I simply hoped for exchange of opinions.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

In the name of the greater good? What good? As far as I've read there is no CWD in Ontario. Blue tongue is spread by midges in summertime. _
The existing ban on natural deer scent isn't backed by science.
The bans on bringing deer parts - into Ontario is a feel-good measure - nothing more.
The MNRF did not stop supplemental feeding to prevent the spread of diseases - they didn't want the cost or responsibility for it.

We don't need a deer feeding ban, and if we get one, it won't do any good. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist here - large scale deer farms and high deer densities.

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I agree 100 % with Werner. Reiche's reply.

I agree with others in that the belief that banning baiting to prevent disease or to slow down the spread is flawed. IMO, there are too many settings in the natural world where deer interact and make contact with each other which makes baiting prohibitions futile.

CWD is the current boogeyman but I think EHD kills more deer every year across the continent and there isn’t a lot that can be done to prevent it.

I think there should be more education about the risks of baiting e.g, acidosis. I would wager that most hunter’s aren’t aware of how a deer’s stomach works and how sensitive they are to food changes. A one-pager in the regs would help.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

I agree with others in that the belief that banning baiting to prevent disease or to slow down the spread is flawed. IMO, there are too many settings in the natural world where deer interact and make contact with each other which makes baiting prohibitions futile.

CWD is the current boogeyman but I think EHD kills more deer every year across the continent and there isn’t a lot that can be done to prevent it.

I think there should be more education about the risks of baiting e.g, acidosis. I would wager that most hunter’s aren’t aware of how a deer’s stomach works and how sensitive they are to food changes. A one-pager in the regs would help.

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I not sure I agree completely. Baiting typically concentrates deer to a very small pile they all eat on. Natural sources sure can do the same in some circumstances but it would be much less likely. Since CWD is spread through saliva from one deer to another, the spread has to be more concentrated at bait piles.

EHD is certainly an issue, especially more so now in Ontario since we don't have CWD yet, at least not confirmed, but CWD is a death sentence for every deer that gets it, unless it dies of something else first.

I'm not against baiting at all, do it myself and love my mineral sites as well. But I can see the reason behind banning these things when CWD arrives. In my mind that is only a matter of time.

I appreciate the OP's attempt at a discussion and keeping calm and cool about it despite some of the replies he has received. Talking isn't an attack on your hunting methods. But clearly some take it pretty personally.

Hopefully the results from areas that have tried these types of bans will be shared with the MNR and they can make an informed decision when we do finally get CWD. I truly hope that never happens, but I think that is wishful thinking. Hopefully we can delay until there is a cure/treatment found at best in my opinion.