Second chance Draw for Moose

Reminder-today is the first day of the application period.

There is more then 9402 tags not claimed/drawn out from 16309 in the first round.
Total 42 % of the tags was claimed ONLY.

Yes-there will be many claimed after the second chance draw ,but over 3000 tags go unclaimed ever since this system is introduced.Annually.

MNRF hopefully WILL DO something about this ......even though it was contemplated already for 2024.
In my books-it is far from fair for people to "play"the system, leaving others without chance.

Its taking more time than I thought for the required points to decrease in some WMU's. Dropped 2 points where I hunt. Still plenty of big groups around I think that have several big point guys, so claiming 1 sends the rest back for next year. Although that theory would suggest they get their tag in the first draw and the group of guys wouldn't need to apply in the 2nd. I'm sure there are guys that apply in the 2nd allocation with no intentions of claiming it. Don't get me wrong, I like the new system, just needs a couple tweaks.

I am getting tag every year with the new system ,
And you try to tell me that the system is not good ...?!
I am hunting Moose year after year ...
Get a calf tag and go hunting ...

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Originally Posted by gbk

Reminder-today is the first day of the application period.

There is more then 9402 tags not claimed/drawn out from 16309 in the first round.
Total 42 % of the tags was claimed ONLY.

Yes-there will be many claimed after the second chance draw ,but over 3000 tags go unclaimed ever since this system is introduced.Annually.

MNRF hopefully WILL DO something about this ......even though it was contemplated already for 2024.
In my books-it is far from fair for people to "play"the system, leaving others without chance.

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Originally Posted by alfoldivandor

I am getting tag every year with the new system ,
And you try to tell me that the system is not good ...?!
I am hunting Moose year after year ...
Get a calf tag and go hunting ...

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I never cried about me not going moose hunting because i got no tag-but about the system.

You getting tag does not means the system is good!
It is good in certain aspects -BUT remember ,you could hunt calf with the old system too.without any hassle.

The new system needs some fine tuning but it is miles a head of the old system,
Least this system shows how many tags get wasted, was lots of people that drew tags and never went before that is a given.
Im 3 tags in 4 years on this system. old system I was 2 tags for 18 years so Its working for me and everyone I know.
Even had a buddy hadn't drew a tag for 20 years and drew one, old system good chance he still wouldn't have drew a bull tag.
Not calf hunting will help the population and the amount of meat you get off a calf is it even worth it unless solo hunting?
half the people complain no tags and the same half complain they cant smoke every calf in Ontario. Sooner of later the calves that haven't been shot over the last 4 years calves will start having calves and hopefully the population increases which will increase tags and points will go down.

the wasted tag arguement keeps coming up, but in reality the MNR will only allow a certain percentage of animals harvested. If everyone claimed all the tags, they would just have to reduce the numbers of tags. If in the first couple years less tags were claimed, then they would increase the number.

At the end of the day we can only take so many moose, if the system is changed so tags all get claimed, by the next year there will be a lot less tags. Your chances really aren't going to improve either way.

The MNRF will never succeed 100% in pleasing everyone!
There will always be someone who finds fault with whatever systems they implement.
I have never drawn a tag in the moose lottery myself, but if you want a healthy moose population - as I DO - then this system is FAR BETTER than the old way.
For years I suggested to have a three year pause in ALL moose hunting in order to help the dwindling population, but moose seem to be doing somewhat better since the pandemic era, and I am loving this new draw system. Those who can afford buying expensive tags from outfitters and lodges can pretty much go hunting wherever they want, so I don't think they will ever complain anyway.
The rest of us, can "play the system" - which is a fair draw IMHO - and hope for the best. ;)

The point system makes hunters who apply in groups more strategic as you hope to get a tag on a regular basis. In the old days a group might get multiple tags however the objective now is to only claim the tags that you absolutely need.

In our group of 4 hunters, 3 hunters are eligible for a bull tag but we are only claiming 1. So 2 tags go unclaimed meaning 2 guys will be eligible next year. We are happy with the new system but wish that the season started a week earlier like it used to. It’s hard to call a mature bull out in the middle of October as they are worn out already.

Getting off topic but why was the season changed to a week back?
We hunt a area that opens October 12th less then 3 km from my spot rifle season starts September 14th for rifle, it really makes no sense at all to me.
First year back to rifle from bow in a few years, going to be a big change in moose activity for us

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Originally Posted by FishHog

the wasted tag arguement keeps coming up, but in reality the MNR will only allow a certain percentage of animals harvested. If everyone claimed all the tags, they would just have to reduce the numbers of tags. If in the first couple years less tags were claimed, then they would increase the number.

At the end of the day we can only take so many moose, if the system is changed so tags all get claimed, by the next year there will be a lot less tags. Your chances really aren't going to improve either way.

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You are absolutely right -if that is their goal. Who knows-not sure if it is,to be honest with you.

At the other hand-if they would fix "this issue"-transparency would improve, straightforwardness would be present, accountability for the ones "claiming and not taking" would make applicants "share the wealth"so to say-many more-You name it.

This way- the guy who held back from moose hunting,because he wanted to hunt moose in his back yard ( MIMBY...;))sat and by "default"accumulated points ,is privileged to "displace"others.

Or-makes "lower point groups" hunting more remote areas "displace"others from even having a chance to get a tag,by qualifying "en masse"then not taking the tag.
Yes-they "play"the system-set up for them,but that does not make it any more fair.

I am not crying, and i could go "any time" - i have enough point to hunt-just not ready yet.

My point is :fair is fair.

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Originally Posted by Matt86

Getting off topic but why was the season changed to a week back?
We hunt an area that opens October 12th less than 3 km from my spot rifle season starts September 14th for rifle, it really makes no sense at all to me.

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The MNRF moved the season back (and out of the peak rut) to reduce the bull harvest -especially mature bulls. During the rut, bulls are more easily drawn into range by calling. Mature bulls are much harder to call in after the rut however yearling bulls are easier to fool. The number of bull tags available for the archery season were also reduced for the same reason. The opening dates in the far north were left unchanged so that the fly-in outfitters can run their hunts before ice forms on the lakes.

Back in the day, the MNRF believed that an annual 30% mortality rate was tolerable, but they have since learned that 10% is about the maximum that a herd can sustain. This all equates to shorter seasons and fewer tags.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

The MNRF moved the season back (and out of the peak rut) to reduce the bull harvest -especially mature bulls. During the rut, bulls are more easily drawn into range by calling. Mature bulls are much harder to call in after the rut however yearling bulls are easier to fool. The number of bull tags available for the archery season were also reduced for the same reason. The opening dates in the far north were left unchanged so that the fly-in outfitters can run their hunts before ice forms on the lakes.

Back in the day, the MNRF believed that an annual 30% mortality rate was tolerable, but they have since learned that 10% is about the maximum that a herd can sustain. This all equates to shorter seasons and fewer tags.

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Thanks, almost be nice they dropped the number of tags so could hunt the rut with a rifle, or closed the season early so doesn't run to December 15 to help out with harvest rates

I just applied, when do the results of the second draw come out?

Sent from my SM-G990W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Domi

I just applied, when do the results of the second draw come out?

Sent from my SM-G990W using Tapatalk

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August 1

We are almost there ...

To know the result ...!

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Originally Posted by newbiehunter

August 1

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Originally Posted by alfoldivandor

We are almost there ...

To know the result ...!

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24 hours and counting [emoji1]

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Originally Posted by gbk

Yes-there will be many claimed after the second chance draw ,but over 3000 tags go unclaimed ever since this system is introduced.Annually.

MNRF hopefully WILL DO something about this ......even though it was contemplated already for 2024.
In my books-it is far from fair for people to "play"the system, leaving others without chance.

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That's the whole point of the system - reduce the harvest rates while keeping as many people involved (maximize profit, whether they claim tags or not, the fees still collected by MNR)
The unclaimed tags percentage simply rolls over into next year available tags.

If everyone claimed/and were successful, the next year's later tags would drop to nonexistent levels.. And minimum requirement points would be back to their old average

In terms of groups " playing" the system - well nothing changed in that regard, large groups have always had preferential treatment historically, the system has simply opened up opportunities for small groups too

Not sure what is the point of the system.

Definitely what is happening is reducing the participation rate in the hunting(eliminating potential hunters). With great help from hunters pushing each one out.

This may not necessary equal to less moose harvested, Ontario moose harvest being less and less successful(for the majority of hunters).One just need to look at success rates change over time.
If they worry about harvest rates-reducing tag numbers is equally effective.(other then reducing non regulated harvest-and do something about predation)

At least we would KNOW with great certainty what is the chance of one getting a "meaningful "tag.
If they worry about moose decline-they could do many things, other then playing Lottery Corporation of Ontario ,while saying they work with hunters.

In terms of Large group allocation-other then the Ministry slowly pushed themselves out of max group limits,they balked to the pressure of all the MIMBY hunters(moose in my back yard).

They could have easily split WMU-s ,to keep max group sizes workable ,and meanwhile "protect the herd".
They could also give a quota to the group members-one year participate-then next year you are not.

Both would give MORE opportunity to hunters, with fair AND transparent system,while maintaining the herd.

Never mind the calf harvest allowance-even today ,when the moose is suffering in most of its historical range.
THAT still being part of the system-no one can explain properly.
Maybe-political (to keep hunters "happy")and meanwhile grab some money IS the only goal.

Yet-if they worry about moose future-calf harvest should have been gone LONG ago.

9 More hour and one more tag with 0 point .... Will come

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Originally Posted by newbiehunter

24 hours and counting [emoji1]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by alfoldivandor

9 More hour and one more tag with 0 point .... Will come

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Do expect something other than a calf tag? Guys around here won’t hunt solo for calves. Calf hunting is incidental to bull/cow hunting.

I am expecting only Calf tag but if I get a Cow/Calf that is good to
for roaming the wilderness .
I like to spend week or two every fall in the bush harvesting a game is not a priority for me .

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

Do expect something other than a calf tag? Guys around here won’t hunt solo for calves. Calf hunting is incidental to bull/cow hunting.

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Lol either few people hunt moose or those that want to didn’t draw a tag. I would have thought there would have been a few posts today about being successful in the draw or not.

For the record, I was a awarded a zero-point calf tag. My hunting partner is travelling today so won’t be checking until tomorrow however I expect that he will draw a bull tag. We declined 2 bull tags after the first draw because those guys aren’t available to hunt this fall so we should be good for at least one tag next year and the year following that.

All our gang applied to the primary and got nothing. Some of us applied in the secondary and still got nothing (WMU 50-between 10 and 18 points). This year's corn and weenie roast is still a go at the old camp we decided to hang onto rather than let it go. Some us have Bear tags and three of the eight of us even got anterless tags this year which was
a huge surprise,so,other than Moose being a write off ir should still be good.

edit: I forgot to mention about the one calf tag.

1 of the guys in our group got an archery cow tag so we are going moose hunting .

I got a Calf tag with 0 point

Our group got no tags in the first and second draw with 2 of us with 12 points and 1 with11 points

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

All our gang applied to the primary and got nothing. Some of us applied in the secondary and still got nothing (WMU 50-between 10 and 18 points). This year's corn and weenie roast is still a go at the old camp we decided to hang onto rather than let it go. Some us have Bear tags and three of the eight of us even got anterless tags this year which was a huge surprise,so,other than Moose being a write off ir should still be good.

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I cant figure this stupid Moose draw stuff, you got be be a Bay Street lawyer to read all this crap.

I drew a calf tag last year in what I believe would be the primary draw, had no idea what it would cost in points.

Up until the 1st August 2024 , I was showing 12 points in the bank, I check today and see that I now have zero because of last years calf tag.

So it looks like I spent all 12 points getting a calf tag for WMU 60 LOL.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I cant figure this stupid Moose draw stuff, you got be be a Bay Street lawyer to read all this crap.

I drew a calf tag last year in what I believe would be the primary draw, had no idea what it would cost in points.

Up until the 1st August 2024 , I was showing 12 points in the bank, I check today and see that I now have zero because of last years calf tag.

So it looks like I spent all 12 points getting a calf tag for WMU 60 LOL.

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I've always been very good at reading law and regulations,but,I have to admit this one has me stumped,too. I thought a calf tag was exempt from point reduction. Now,I'm told that if we accept it at the primary draw stage,points automatically go to "0". One of our senior members drew and accepted a calf tag with 15 points in the primary. Before he accepted,he called me and asked if I'd go with him because his wife won't let him unless two others go,too. Now,this fella is 85 this year and let's face it,it could literally be his last although,right now,he's still in damn good shape,but,for any of us,health can turn on a dime. I'll freeze in H**l before I ever step on someone's dream. I'm in.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I've always been very good at reading law and regulations,but,I have to admit this one has me stumped,too. I thought a calf tag was exempt from point reduction. Now,I'm told that if we accept it at the primary draw stage,points automatically go to "0". One of our senior members drew and accepted a calf tag with 15 points in the primary. Before he accepted,he called me and asked if I'd go with him because his wife won't let him unless two others go,too. Now,this fella is 85 this year and let's face it,it could literally be his last although,right now,he's still in damn good shape,but,for any of us,health can turn on a dime. I'll freeze in H**l before I ever step on someone's dream. I'm in.

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Good on you for committing to take the fellow out one last time. I hope you have a joyous trip with many fond memories. I hope that I’m still hunting in 20 years but being the youngest in our deer camp, I’ll be the last man standing. Bums me out when I think about it.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I cant figure this stupid Moose draw stuff, you got be be a Bay Street lawyer to read all this crap.

I drew a calf tag last year in what I believe would be the primary draw, had no idea what it would cost in points.

Up until the 1st August 2024 , I was showing 12 points in the bank, I check today and see that I now have zero because of last years calf tag.

So it looks like I spent all 12 points getting a calf tag for WMU 60 LOL.

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This draw is very easy to understand, its is all in the regs quite clear
1st round all points gone
2nd round 1st choice points gone
2nd round 2nd and 3rd choice are random and you don't loose your points.
We drew our bull tags and 3 calf tags for our group of 4. All calf tags were in the random no point draw

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Originally Posted by Matt86

This draw is very easy to understand, its is all in the regs quite clear
1st round all points gone
2nd round 1st choice points gone
2nd round 2nd and 3rd choice are random and you don't loose your points.
We drew our bull tags and 3 calf tags for our group of 4. All calf tags were in the random no point draw

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Yes very easy to understand that is why it takes from pages 56 to 73 to try and explain the process.

I Just explained how the point system works towards tags in 25 words I think
All them pages are hunt codes, previous tag points required for the year before, the season of each wmu, tag transfer, party hunting few advertisements.
This is the problem with how you are making it sound, a new hunter will read how you say its so complicated and there is 20 plus pages on how to apply, but you are so completely wrong it isnt funny,
So don't cry and scare away new moose hunters cause you cant understand something,

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Originally Posted by Matt86

I Just explained how the point system works towards tags in 25 words I think
All them pages are hunt codes, previous tag points required for the year before, the season of each wmu, tag transfer, party hunting few advertisements.
This is the problem with how you are making it sound, a new hunter will read how you say its so complicated and there is 20 plus pages on how to apply, but you are so completely wrong it isnt funny,
So don't cry and scare away new moose hunters cause you cant understand something,

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I think I can understand a "new hunter" will have zero points and probably will not read much more of the other pages.

Why not? I don't get your point if it is cause you think zero points wont get you a tag
I've drew 3 tags with zero points in the last 3 out of 4 years so why wouldn't someone with zero points be interested in applying for moose in Ontario and understanding it to get a tag?
and the year I didn't draw with zero I used my points

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Originally Posted by Matt86

Why not? I don't get your point if it is cause you think zero points wont get you a tag
I've drew 3 tags with zero points in the last 3 out of 4 years so why wouldn't someone with zero points be interested in applying for moose in Ontario and understanding it to get a tag?
and the year I didn't draw with zero I used my points

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I think you just provided me with another example of how convoluted the system is now.

Pretty easy you apply where there is tags you get them.
Think you may need help from someone explaining the system instead of bashing it.

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Originally Posted by Matt86

Think you may need help from someone explaining the system instead of bashing it.

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Lets remember debate is good just don't let it get to heated or personal.
No system will be acceptable to every hunter as everyone has their own reason to hunt.
There is a reason Idioms such as :You can't have your cake and eat it (too) or If Mohammed won't come to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed exist
Meaning: If something cannot or will not happen the easy way, then sometimes it must be done the hard way.
So you want to hunt moose apply where no one wants to go. You want to hunt a specific place than line up with every other hunter who wants to do the same and wait your turn.

X 2 me also 4 years and 3 time tag with 0 point
just have to study the sistem....

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Originally Posted by matt86

why not? I don't get your point if it is cause you think zero points wont get you a tag
i've drew 3 tags with zero points in the last 3 out of 4 years so why wouldn't someone with zero points be interested in applying for moose in ontario and understanding it to get a tag?
And the year i didn't draw with zero i used my points

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Good comment ....

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

lets remember debate is good just don't let it get to heated or personal.
No system will be acceptable to every hunter as everyone has their own reason to hunt.
There is a reason idioms such as :you can't have your cake and eat it (too) or if mohammed won't come to the mountain, the mountain must come to mohammed exist
meaning: If something cannot or will not happen the easy way, then sometimes it must be done the hard way.
So you want to hunt moose apply where no one wants to go. You want to hunt a specific place than line up with every other hunter who wants to do the same and wait your turn.

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Procedural matters can take a bit of time and study to understand. It’s no different with the moose draw. It was no different in the early 1980’ when the original moose draw came out as some hunters complained that it was too complicated. Some people must be taught, while others learn by doing. Learning new things can be challenging, especially for seniors who are experiencing memory issues. However for most younger folks, if something really interests you (e.g. moose hunting) then you take the time to figure it out.

IMO, folks who give up an activity and claim that it’s too complicated are quitting for other reasons as well.

We need to remember that 75% of Ontario Moose hunters aren't spring chickens anymore (average age is over 70). Moose hunter recruitment is exceedingly low. Many had (have) camps south of the French River where tags are virtually impossible to obtain. For them, traveling 12-14 hours north and camping out is no longer an option. Those northern areas are where the tag availability is the highest,although,still a mere shadow of what they were.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

We need to remember that 75% of Ontario Moose hunters aren't spring chickens anymore (average age is over 70). Moose hunter recruitment is exceedingly low. Many had (have) camps south of the French River where tags are virtually impossible to obtain. For them, traveling 12-14 hours north and camping out is no longer an option. Those northern areas are where the tag availability is the highest,although,still a mere shadow of what they were.

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It’s really interesting how demographics are changing across North America and the corresponding impacting hunting. LOL I just deleted 2 paragraphs where I was going into a deeper dive into the broader subject of changing demographics but don’t want to highjack the thread.

Anyway, as Trimmer has pointed out, due to poor hunter recruitment, hunters are older and there are fewer of us each year. Going forward, the availability of tags won’t be an issue (unless CWD or other disease wipes out wildlife) and there will be fewer hunters to defend hunting.

The MNRF sets the number of tags per WMU that it believes can be harvested, so the less tag argument doesn't fly. The amount of unclaimed tags per WMU in 2023 was staggering after the 2nd allocation. A lot of groups did not go hunting because they didn't draw an adult tag because a lot of hunters turned down their awarded tag, and hence that tag goes unclaimed. There is a website that shows a chart with full transparency on all WMU's for the 2023 hunt, but for some reason the MNRF does not post this link in either the electronic or Printed regs. Under the old rules all leftover tags were allocated for all hunters to purchase without being penalized(moved to Pool2). The new system is easy to fix, reduce the amount of time for the primary and secondary allocation process to take place. Make a hard deadline to claim your tag after the 2nd allocation,of, say August 1st, then release the unclaimed tags as in the past for all to claim on a first come first serve basis without loss of points. I think many hunters would be very surprised to see the the actual amount of unclaimed tags in the province, I was personally blown away. I deer hunt Area 50 and personally know a lot of moose hunters in that area, one bull tag went unclaimed in 2023, they MNRF gives less than 20 bulls there. Leaving that tag unclaimed is a joke imho WMU 50 can sustain the amount of tags that are allocated. Our group see moose every year during the deer hunt. The WMU in the northwest where we moose hunt had 18 bulls, 39 cows and 89 calf tags go unclaimed, and once again I know of 2 groups that did not go hunting because they did not draw an adult tag, once again Joke!

One last note, I do not believe a hunter should be penalized for not claiming his awarded tag as maybe another group member also received a tag and they want to preserve their points for the following season. But as earlier stated, wake up MNRF and set a hard deadline for claiming tags and then release the rest of the tags for all as in the past.

Unclaimed tags ,I get it . But thats a good way to increase the moose population.
I have not claimed 2 tags in the last 3 years, because our group already had tags .

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Originally Posted by matt64

One last note, I do not believe a hunter should be penalized for not claiming his awarded tag as maybe another group member also received a tag and they want to preserve their points for the following season. But as earlier stated, wake up MNRF and set a hard deadline for claiming tags and then release the rest of the tags for all as in the past.

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We posted about this many times-seems MNRF has no interest fixing the issue.

Hence- many hunters do not go moose hunting because OTHER hunters push them out( applying for a tag which then they do not claim)
Very fair.

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Originally Posted by matt64

The MNRF sets the number of tags per WMU that it believes can be harvested, so the less tag argument doesn't fly. The amount of unclaimed tags per WMU in 2023 was staggering after the 2nd allocation. A lot of groups did not go hunting because they didn't draw an adult tag because a lot of hunters turned down their awarded tag, and hence that tag goes unclaimed. There is a website that shows a chart with full transparency on all WMU's for the 2023 hunt, but for some reason the MNRF does not post this link in either the electronic or Printed regs. Under the old rules all leftover tags were allocated for all hunters to purchase without being penalized(moved to Pool2). The new system is easy to fix, reduce the amount of time for the primary and secondary allocation process to take place. Make a hard deadline to claim your tag after the 2nd allocation,of, say August 1st, then release the unclaimed tags as in the past for all to claim on a first come first serve basis without loss of points. I think many hunters would be very surprised to see the the actual amount of unclaimed tags in the province, I was personally blown away. I deer hunt Area 50 and personally know a lot of moose hunters in that area, one bull tag went unclaimed in 2023, they MNRF gives less than 20 bulls there. Leaving that tag unclaimed is a joke imho WMU 50 can sustain the amount of tags that are allocated. Our group see moose every year during the deer hunt. The WMU in the northwest where we moose hunt had 18 bulls, 39 cows and 89 calf tags go unclaimed, and once again I know of 2 groups that did not go hunting because they did not draw an adult tag, once again Joke!

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I have no problem with distributing left over tags but, technically speaking, the old phone-in surplus tag method was first-come first-served but it was seriously flawed to the point that it wasn’t fair. They should come up with an online draw with the stipulation that if you’re drawn then you must buy the tag.

For all we know, the MNR factors in the unclaimed tags into the allotment process. I agree that un-claimed/in-used tags can help the moose population.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

For all we know, the MNR factors in the unclaimed tags into the allotment process. I agree that un-claimed/in-used tags can help the moose population.

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Exactly. If all tags were claimed there would be a lot less available in the first place. They only want so many moose harvested as there are only so many. Success rates and unclaimed tags are factored in.

This unclaimed tag argument is just that an argument. It doesn’t make more moose and the numbers that can be harvested are

Everybody is happy the hunters got a tag they do not claim it and the Moose stay in the wilderness...
We should start hunting wolfs that would be even better for Moose population ...
Nothing wrong with the system ...

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Originally Posted by gbk

We posted about this many times-seems MNRF has no interest fixing the issue.

Hence- many hunters do not go moose hunting because OTHER hunters push them out( applying for a tag which then they do not claim)
Very fair.

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Originally Posted by FishHog

Exactly. If all tags were claimed there would be a lot less available in the first place. They only want so many moose harvested as there are only so many. Success rates and unclaimed tags are factored in.

This unclaimed tag argument is just that an argument. It doesn’t make more moose and the numbers that can be harvested are

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The tags allocated to the WMU's are calculated as to what the area can sustain. Unclaimed tags are not part of the process. Hunter reporting gives them a success rate per WMU, all tags should be awarded, period.

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Originally Posted by matt64

The tags allocated to the WMU's are calculated as to what the area can sustain. Unclaimed tags are not part of the process. Hunter reporting gives them a success rate per WMU, all tags should be awarded, period.

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You don’t think if more tags were issued more moose would be taken and so they would reduce the number of available tags that wmu could sustain?

Ultimately it not about the number of tags w the number of moose taken. That’s a function of tags, claimed tags, active hunters, success rates. All of that data is used to come up with tags given.
I get you want a tag. We all do but at the end of the day there are only so many moose and things are adjusted to keep within sustainable harvest rates.
“Period.” (Which I find a little rude but you used it)

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Originally Posted by FishHog

You don’t think if more tags were issued more moose would be taken and so they would reduce the number of available tags that wmu could sustain?

Ultimately it not about the number of tags w the number of moose taken. That’s a function of tags, claimed tags, active hunters, success rates. All of that data is used to come up with tags given.
I get you want a tag. We all do but at the end of the day there are only so many moose and things are adjusted to keep within sustainable harvest rates.
“Period.” (Which I find a little rude but you used it)

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First sorry for using "period" that was not directed to anyone on the forum, only to the MNRF. Also unclaimed tags is 100% not a function tag numbers, call the MNRF or OFAH to confirm. Once again, the amount of tags released per year to all WMU's are what the MNRF believe is sustainable. The number changes due to surveys and now also hunter reporting, That is why I am upset at the amount of tags that are left unclaimed. This could have been fixed after the first year of the new system being implemented. Also, just a heads up but this will be all changing again in 2027. What would be helpful is for all moose hunters to call Doug Ford, Graydon Smith and Patrick Hubert, Senior wildlife biologist- Policy advisor, OFAH and the BGMAC to voice your concerns. When the system was implemented there was only a very small number of hunters who sent in their 2 cents during the open process period. So lets try to gather all outdoor enthusiasts and start to convey our concerns. The system is flawed. Cheers

I notice that some posters here (and in other forums) still refer to tag allocations as in "groups". We need to remember that "groups" no longer enter the equation in the system. Just sayin'.........

Next time ask, it's not that hard to figure out, I believe it's easier for people to throw their hands up in the air than to ask, however, I thought that our group should've received a Bull tag in the 2nd chance but we didn't, so now we only have 2 cow tags, I think 1 will be enough, I myself have received a calf tag the last 3 years in a row, my son who had a Bull tag last year received a calf tag this year.

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Originally Posted by matt64

First sorry for using "period" that was not directed to anyone on the forum, only to the MNRF.

tags released per year to all WMU's are what the MNRF believe is sustainable.

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Thanks appreciate that.
I agree tags released is what they think is sustainable. But you seem to think that if they release 100 tags they think 100 moose can be taken.

In reality they work that down to how many hunters who got a tag were successful. If that 25% for example they believe 25 moose could be harvested and that being sustainable.

If we were ever 100% successful and 100% of tags were claimed they would only issue 25 tags in the first place.

Don’t kid yourself. MNR makes money off of claimed tags. If they could get away with issuing more and not decimating the moose population they would.

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Originally Posted by FishHog

Thanks appreciate that.
I agree tags released is what they think is sustainable. But you seem to think that if they release 100 tags they think 100 moose can be taken.

In reality they work that down to how many hunters who got a tag were successful. If that 25% for example they believe 25 moose could be harvested and that being sustainable.

If we were ever 100% successful and 100% of tags were claimed they would only issue 25 tags in the first place.

Don’t kid yourself. MNR makes money off of claimed tags. If they could get away with issuing more and not decimating the moose population they would.

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matt64 is saying what i am also trying to say-make the system transparent and predictable.
As far as the $ concerns-i hardly believe the roughly 1 million dollar they collect from all moose tags/year is of any motivational value for a big organization like MNRF.

So far we guess a lot.
How they guess how many tags will go unclaimed? As this being big part of the equation for the supporters of the theory that those tags are part of the foreseen/allotted potential harvest?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matt64

First sorry for using "period" that was not directed to anyone on the forum, only to the MNRF. Also unclaimed tags is 100% not a function tag numbers, call the MNRF or OFAH to confirm. Once again, the amount of tags released per year to all WMU's are what the MNRF believe is sustainable. The number changes due to surveys and now also hunter reporting, That is why I am upset at the amount of tags that are left unclaimed. This could have been fixed after the first year of the new system being implemented. Also, just a heads up but this will be all changing again in 2027. What would be helpful is for all moose hunters to call Doug Ford, Graydon Smith and Patrick Hubert, Senior wildlife biologist- Policy advisor, OFAH and the BGMAC to voice your concerns. When the system was implemented there was only a very small number of hunters who sent in their 2 cents during the open process period. So lets try to gather all outdoor enthusiasts and start to convey our concerns. The system is flawed. Cheers

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Hi matt64-what is changing in 2027? If you do not mind to share it with us.Thanx

If they made a cut off date to claim the 2nd draw tags and sped up the draw process and then left over tags bought over the counter per say most of the complaining would go away, it is a pretty easy fix and one that happens in the States for elk and mulies,

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Originally Posted by gbk

Hi matt64-what is changing in 2027? If you do not mind to share it with us.Thanx

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Hey GBK, we do not know what it the changes are but the BGMAC and OFAH has heard from the ministry regarding changes for 2027. The MNRF acknowledges flaws but have said that a surplus system can not be created in time for next years hunt, which again is a joke. And once again,there seems to be disagreement on WMU tag allotment, The tags available are what the MNRF biologists believe to be sustainable, therefore all remaining tags should be available in a surplus system. If you are in disagreement call someone on the BGMAC committee or a MNRF , OFAH biologist as I have done. On a final note my group has received an adult tag for our current WMU since 1992, I am advocating this on behalf of all the hunters that cancel their hunt, when all these tags are left unclaimed. One final example in 2023 WMU 2 had 20 Bull, 104 Cow and 113calf tags awarded and then left unclaimed. Lets stand up and be heard , give Graydon Smiths office a call please. Cheers Matt

As long as they don’t bring back the phone-in draw!

Scenario-to make this topic more tangible.
WMU where there is a good chance to get a tag for high(-er)point holders,and good area for moose hunt.
Larger group (lets say 6)with many high points.
Apply all 5(6-th just used up points last year .)
Get 5 tags in the first draw.

Claim ONE(or NONE).


All remaining point holders apply in the second draw.
All get tags.

Claim ONE.

This way they achieved FOR THEIR group many things:
-they got a tag
-them successfully ELIMINTED 30-40 OTHER hunters as competition from THEIR area for the season.No tag-no hunting.
-by eliminating many others,they got their OWN private hunting area
-by eliminating many others they "ASSURE"moose harvest is low-so THEY will have GOOD chance even next year to BAG a moose.
-they assure they will be able to get tag next years too
-they assure the can play this game of "good for me -bad for thee"for many years to come

We are all humans,and just because someone is a hunter does not make the hunter a SAINT. We are juts as selfish as the next sportsmen in another field.

Hard to see why this unfair system is so difficult to change.


Leave the first draw as is-but make a rule:

You apply for the tag-you got a tag-you loose your points(you can decide if you claim it or not though)

Easy as easy-and NO new software programming ,no waiting ,no delays.


ps-phoning in is likely the least predictable, and most frustrating way of spending half a day ,phoning like crazy-getting a no connection(line busy signal)for hours,then going thru to find out,no tags left ......
Leaving many ,many with sour taste,challenging their own sanity of doing something so futile..........

That's the problem people complained about the phone in line, I used it once and got a tag so I liked it. but them tags all got used, just because it was a pain for some, the people that got the tags were happy. Not everyone is going to be happy. I will gladly spend half my day calling in with 3 phones to be told there isn't a bull tag means I missed out, but the chance I did and get one that's awesome.
This system is not unfair, the people that have applied the longest in the wmu they want to hunt get the tags, how many tags were drawn in the old system that never got used but no one heard about it because you didn't have a choice, some random person in your group that don't hunt gets a tag and cant transfer,
Maybe get rid of party hunting and you must have a tag and can only shoot your animal like some states.

Matt. The other day you were advocating for hunters that had to cancel their hunt because tags awarded go unclaimed taking opportunity’s away from other hunters. Now you are saying get rid of party hunting or group hunting. Probably 3/4 of all moose hunters that go hunting would not be going if only the tag holder was allowed to shot the moose. The last time I checked we live in Canada. Who cares what they do in the states

Ralphy, there are 2 different Matt's that have posted

Sorry about that I never realized there was 2 Matt’s. What Matt 86 says about tag transfers in the old system is not right. Every group could have one transfer.The hunter with the most consecutive years of applying got the tag and could be transferred to the hunter with the 2nd most. If the transfer was going to another member of the group that was not going that would be on the group or group leader. Not the old system. The rules are made for everyone to go by. No one can complain about playing by the rules.

So you think that is fair having a bunch of people never planning on moose hunting apply in a group and so you can transfer the tag, I have a friend that hunts 48 the old system he had his mom,sister,grandma and aunt in the draw. None ever even touched a gun, trust me I know how the old system worked.
My thoughts on no party hunting is only due to the fact be no unclaimed tags that were drawn, you draw you go simple system really. Everything left over buy on a first come first serve basis.
New Bruinswick has a system in place like that, 2 people to a gun and takes 8-10 years to draw a bull tag in the areas I know about, I've hunted a lot of different places and there really is no system that is going to keep everyone happy.
I personally love the new system I have had 4 tags in 4 years with it, my dad is 3-4, my hunting partner is 3-4. Hope it changes to can buy unclaimed tags after the second draw but future will tell

Matt86 I was not questioning anything but what you said about tag transfers which was not correct. I think if your friends mom, sister, aunt and grandmother took the required hunting and gun safety courses, had their aquasition and possession card and bought a moose lic. I would say they are playing by the rules.If your friends family never went hunting did he get the tag every year.

Yes playing by the rules but was it fair?
and yes they did get a tag every year because was about 8 others who family did the same thing and all apply as a group, and was ways around the same person not drawing a tag 2 years in a row if you had enough people. The one that drew year before if they transferred they simple didn't apply the next year then back to pool 2 and a reset for them. And they hunt wmu 48 which is extremely hard to draw in

My dad and I gave up moose hunting many years ago 21b. We have a beautiful camp/cottage up there since 1973. Plenty of fish and grouse makes us satisfied. The system is so flawed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One of the best things included in the "new" system is tightening up tag transfers that effectively brought all the so-called "license stacking" nonsense to a screaming halt. Now to transfer a tag,MNR requires lots of documentation and each application is required to be actively verified. Anyone with a bogus application will likely wish they didn't.

This year our group got our tags in the primary draw. In the second chance draw I applied for a bull in the first choice with a chance I would or would not claim it if I was awarded a tag.A couple of bays latter I called the MNR and asked if I could change my first choice from a bull to 999 and I was able to.Hopefully giving a group without a tag a chance at a bull tag. My question is what are other groups doing out there that where successful in the primary draw.

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Originally Posted by Ralphy

This year our group got our tags in the primary draw. In the second chance draw I applied for a bull in the first choice with a chance I would or would not claim it if I was awarded a tag.A couple of bays latter I called the MNR and asked if I could change my first choice from a bull to 999 and I was able to.Hopefully giving a group without a tag a chance at a bull tag. My question is what are other groups doing out there that where successful in the primary draw.

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It was mentioned many times-people get 2-3 tags,then claim one. With many agendas why ............That is what many groups are doing.
One just need to read the MNR reports to see that.

i can not fathom why this is much fairer then the "ghost moose hunters system "was-then and there a ban on transfer would fix that.Not happened.
Here and now-, a simple"You apply-you take "would fix everything.

Giving it back with heavy duty reasons should be still allowed. Within serious reasons(health-family )

I take no issue with guys applying for tags in the first draw and not claiming tags they don’t need. It’s about managing a group’s tags in order to at least take one tag. Our group has been together for some forty years or more. The days of getting multiple tags are gone. We manage our applications to try and at least get one adult tag. A calf tag is applied for, for a “just in case” scenario. That hasn’t presented itself yet. I do think that after the second draw, there needs to be a mechanism that will allow unclaimed tags to be available. I’m sure the MNRF are considering that issue once more data is available.

I did not think there would be much of a response on the question what groups do in the second chance after being successful in the primary draw. I think that pretty much all hunters that hunt in groups apply again in the secondary that have not claimed a tag in the primary. I have to agree with JBK that this system is no better than the old system . The complaints about the old system pretty much came from hunters , I am guessing hunting in the southern units where getting a tag is still pretty much 15 or 20 years. As finfurfeather says if you want to hunt go where the tags are . If you want to hunt in a certain area lineup and wait you’re turn.

This system is way more fair then the old system, No one can even argue that. If they thought of how there would be so many hunters not claiming tags maybe they could have did something right away.
But it is the hunters applying for tags they don't use, nothing to do with the system we are taking advantage of the situation.
That's human nature, If I found a way I didn't have to pay taxes I would take that to, as I'm sure everyone would.
Most groups I know all apply to the 2 round to try and get bonus tags that don't cost a point after you get you main tag you want, That's the main reason so many tags go unclaimed, We as a group of 4 got a bull, we all applied for cow and calf tags and all drew calf tags because no one wants them and we all got them on are 3rd pick. so that is 2 calf tags just in our group going unclaimed. but way it set up we all have to apply for them cause it is a lottery.

If group hunters were more aware and trusting of the system, then only the hunters that are 100% of being awarded and accepting of the tag should apply. For example in our group of 4 we only wanted one bull tag yet 3 hunters had enough points and applied for bull tags. End result was that we were awarded 3 bull tags but claimed only 1. Had only one guy applied, we would have been awarded our bull tag which would have left 2 tags for other hunters/groups to claim.

As it stands now, there’s no justification in applying for an adult tag with your second or third choice as all tags are awarded to hunters with there first choice.

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

If group hunters were more aware and trusting of the system, then only the hunters that are 100% of being awarded and accepting of the tag should apply. For example in our group of 4 we only wanted one bull tag yet 3 hunters had enough points and applied for bull tags. End result was that we were awarded 3 bull tags but claimed only 1. Had only one guy applied, we would have been awarded our bull tag which would have left 2 tags for other hunters/groups to claim.

As it stands now, there’s no justification in applying for an adult tag with your second or third choice as all tags are awarded to hunters with there first choice.

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But for example, if said group had 3 guys with the same number of points had only 1 guy apply and that was at the cutoff point total, it goes to a random draw for everyone at that point total if it exceeds the number of remaining tags and you'd be kicking yourself for not having all 3 guys in for a chance at 1.

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Originally Posted by cantgetright

But for example, if said group had 3 guys with the same number of points had only 1 guy apply and that was at the cutoff point total, it goes to a random draw for everyone at that point total if it exceeds the number of remaining tags and you'd be kicking yourself for not having all 3 guys in for a chance at 1.

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This is my concern. If your group had 2 or three guys with the sufficient point numbers, it’s best to all apply since the number of applicants is an unknown and you may end up in a random draw scenario. If all are awarded tags, then only accept one if that’s your plan. The big issue is the MNR needs to have a process where all turned back tags get awarded. I’m sure they are looking into this issue now.

Another reason not to allow second round tags to remain unclaimed until the end of the season - the temptation to use them after the fact. Don't do it!! Boneheads!!

https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/h...nces-1.7020545

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

Another reason not to allow second round tags to remain unclaimed until the end of the season - the temptation to use them after the fact. Don't do it!! Boneheads!!

https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/h...nces-1.7020545

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Bingo!! This forum needs a "like" button.

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

Another reason not to allow second round tags to remain unclaimed until the end of the season - the temptation to use them after the fact. Don't do it!! Boneheads!!

https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/h...nces-1.7020545

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It’s not clear whether the hunter forgot to buy his tag or only planned to buy it after the fact. Regardless, it’s a good reason to prohibit tag sales after the season starts!

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Originally Posted by Sam Menard

It’s not clear whether the hunter forgot to buy his tag or only planned to buy it after the fact. Regardless, it’s a good reason to prohibit tag sales after the season starts!

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LOL; Forgot to buy it? Come on Sam, you cant be serious, no one is that forgetful! Who in their right mind would forget to buy their tag, go moose hunting, and then suddenly remember after they shot the animal LOL? No reasonable person would believe such a story.

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

LOL; Forgot to buy it? Come on Sam, you cant be serious, no one is that forgetful! Who in their right mind would forget to buy their tag, go moose hunting, and then suddenly remember after they shot the animal LOL? No reasonable person would believe such a story.

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Well there were people that forgot to buy their licences when the new system came out… they thought they paid when they applied. I’m not making excuses for them, just not sure what happened.

Maybe their group shot 2 cows while hunting apart at the same time. A good possibility that has happened before. Also the first year of the new system one member of our group bought the 15$ fee and did not realize he had to buy the 35$ lic. He never got checked out by the MNR that year luckly. He realized the next year when he drew an adult tag.

This would have never happened in the old system.If the MNR would have tightened up the tag transfers in the old system like the new system there would have been no unclaimed tags. I think the MNR bent to the hunters in the southern units where in some WMU,s getting a tag was every 15,20 to 25 years and is still the same. Applying individually and not in groups every hunter would have been on level ground .

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Originally Posted by Ralphy

This would have never happened in the old system.If the MNR would have tightened up the tag transfers in the old system like the new system there would have been no unclaimed tags. I think the MNR bent to the hunters in the southern units where in some WMU,s getting a tag was every 15,20 to 25 years and is still the same. Applying individually and not in groups every hunter would have been on level ground .

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But you will never know how many tags didnt gets used, Cause they defiantly got drawn and someone said oh I cant go oh well was 50 bucks
I know my friend drew a bow tag with the old system but never went hunting, And I have a uncle that his wifes mom died day before leaving and he didnt go, There was lots of this I'm sure in other gangs,
It is a easy fix to put a dead line in place for the second draw and then sell over the counter, or even after the first draw you sell tags over the counter. Just needs to happen is all

Matt86 things are going to come up in a persons life and plans might get changed but a friend or family member passing away is probably a good enough reason to change plans. I don’t think you can say how many tags did or did not get used. Your just guessing. Plans will get changed for one reason or another for a person weather it’s the new or old system

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Originally Posted by Ralphy

Matt86 things are going to come up in a persons life and plans might get changed but a friend or family member passing away is probably a good enough reason to change plans. I don’t think you can say how many tags did or did not get used. Your just guessing. Plans will get changed for one reason or another for a person weather it’s the new or old system

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I get that but if you think people getting tags and not going hunting is new your wrong, yes there is lots left over but take away the calf tags, take away all the tags in the wmu 1 and 16s and then see.
Im not arguing that tags not being claimed is a issue, I wish we had 2 or 3 bull tags instead of 1. Its a easy fix it is just a matter if the government dose it or not. This same system is in many places and tags are over the counter after the draw.
And if you look into other provinces I will take ours over New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia. When you start hunting all over and seeing how things are ran you get a better picture of it.