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https://youtu.be/DabxhqKTUnM
Watched this vid and found it unappealing. Yes dog looks great. Worked amazing. Just something about it just didn't feel right to me. Could be the dog was just too mechanical. Sure there have been times working a bunch of flight birds wished had a rock solid dog but now I like my happy go lucky pals a little more.
Trials always have irked me for the reason your training your dog to impress someone else.
Thoughts?
that the point of a pointer isn't it. I have hunted behind pointers and personally don't like it, I prefer a flusher myself. My lab would just flush them then retrieve them back to me.
You are absolutely right. That would be text book pointer. Could not be better however for me too extreme end of "prefection"Quote:
Originally Posted by sabmgb
Hunting with mine where no where close to perfection just the dogs seem to have a bit more joie de vie,
https://youtu.be/R0MTaontQQg
Love the Euro pointing style of your dog!
As for the woodcock video, I love a steady dog, but when the guy said “He’s gonna go find the bird and bring it back to the dog”, I almost spit my whisky out! :D
Ya had a hard time with that. Though if its an easy find I do prefer to pick 'em up myself as esp Stella has a hard mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
I have mix
I spent many years trialing setters and have no regrets. You train your own dog (wonderful experience) and then you say , "Others should see how great this dog is." At the trial you help many new dog owners and the social life is great. The many trialers I knew also hunted.
Only thing I don't like at trials is that the dog can't relocate on its own after pointing.
You'll notice there are not many trialers posting on here. The younger generation has other things they prefer doing. The best ON. trialers who used to post on here are now either dead or gone.
A trial dog is probably the best odds in getting a pup worth a dam. I grew up in the tradition of 2 hunters who had "good" dogs had a litter the pick was kept for either owner and the rest of the pups went to other hunters . Now a days hard to find a backyard breeder designed for the hunter but for the pet trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by swampsinger
Wonder if this rule will change at least in cover dog trials. Find woodcock are becoming more apt to scurry along and don't sit a tight as they used to. A lot of "false" points are just points where the dog locked up and the bird walked another 10-15. A little cat and mouse action usually gets the bird in the bag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
I do think that is allowed in Cover dog trials and NAVHDA.
Never been in a trial where woodcock were used.
Chukar, quail or pheasant were planted and these birds tend to hunker down.
FFF’s dog’s pointing style is a perfect example. This was once how all setters pointed (crouching). The high-head, high-tail pointing style we now typically see in setters is purely a North American construct of the field trial system.Quote:
Originally Posted by swampsinger
English setters have been taught to have the high-head, high-tail pointing style for the simple reason that you can see them better in tall grasses as opposed to the European setters that crouch. However when an English setter gets too close to a bird they still hit the ground and "set" (crouch) as that has been bred into them for decades if not centuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
In my opinion all pointing dogs used for hunting any species of upland, should at the very least be steady to wing and shot.
Depends what upland species of bird you plan on hunting. Flushers would not work very well out west hunting Grey Partridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabmgb
I'm happy with steady steady to wing. If I was a better shot maybe to shot too. Sometimes heading off a cripple a head start is a good thing. As for their point I let them be as if they are strung out I know its a woodcock. Though they'll stand to attention for a grouse.Quote:
Originally Posted by huntervinni
Its a spectacular sight to behold!Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Personally, I hunt mostly by myself and my requirements or I guess expectations have loosened quite a bit over the last few years. My cocker was my first dog and I was obsessed with training and making sure he was steady as could be till I sent him for the bird. He's 11 now and I'm extremely lax with what I let him away with. I don't care if he's steady to the fall anymore. My munster's "training" has basically just been going hunting aside from a bit of pigeon work early on. She's 2 so maybe that will end up biting my in the rear but she points and waits for me to flush without me really training her to do anything. I've never even trained her to "whoa". She breaks on the flush which is fine with me. I love seeing a dog steady to fall but I can't imagine not sending a dog for the retrieve unless of course they're hunting with the hawk. If you play dog games, you need to train for that. But I do believe the average hunter probably doesn't need all that polish to fill the game bag. Plus it makes for a much more relaxed hunt if you're not focused on perfection the whole time.
Good post!
I saw someone almost shoot their dog once so being steady to the flush and shot is essential imo.
That's a case for better training of the shooter not the dog. Anyone who can't hold off on a questionable shot for any reason should have the e collar on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
I agree 100%. That's a shooter issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Wouldn't really be a questionable shot if the dog was steady to the flush and shot......Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
I don't know, you would hunt with a guy who would take a low shot irregardless of what else might be in front of him?Quote:
Originally Posted by huntervinni
Well, it's been awhile and I'm guessing many will hope it's a while before I post again! :)
Mr. Ecker is a long time cover dog trialer with an admirable past in cover dog trials. He has his own way of doing things which are not how I would do things however that's neither here-nor-there. I've had my own success in trials, including cover trials where-by we hunted grouse or woodcock - not pen-raised/planted birds.
It is my observation (and I could be wrong) that FFF's setter is an American setter, not European. *European setters do in fact still "set" but not quite like FFFs.
Trials are a medium that supports the sporting aspect of working dogs. Without them, I believe the breeds would erode over time. They provide a stringent expectation while ensuring the canine entrants are not only trained well but reflect their inherent traits AND must be both mentally and physically strong. Without them, we'd have a WIDE series of performances from the "same breed" because most everyone today has migrated away from what the basic performance standard of a pointing dog "should" be. The dogs are quite capable of performing at top level. Their owners are not invested and so the resulting performance erodes exponentially over time. For example a well-bred pointing dog has all the tools in his/her box. If the owner keeps reaching for the hammer for every application, it doesn't really tell what else is in the box. ALL of the dogs I contribute towards leave here completely steady (like the one you saw Mr. Ecker training). They handle WITHOUT a whistle or hacking because it's the dog's responsibility to watch where I'm going - not the other way around. I hunt wild birds, not dogs. As such, my opportunities for success improve exponentially because of the silent approach and the synergy/faith the dog and I have in each other to git 'er done whether it's early season grouse/woodcock or Huns/sharpies on the prairies! The higher level of success rewards both the dog and I. My dogs retrieve, so unlike the one you saw in the first vid, I send my dog(s) to find and bring back my birds. Even in my trialing days, my dogs retrieved when hunted. They knew the difference between a trial and hunting. MY expectations were the same unlike some that allow their dogs to break when hunting which in fact can contribute to ambiguity for the dog. As I stated, a proper steady dog is WELL within the wheel-house of your well-bred pointing dog regardless of breed. The challenge remains with the dog's owner/trainer.
So, I'm hunting quail in KS. My setter locks up. I walk in and quail - unlike Huns for example - flush like "popcorn". They also go in a variety of directions! I settle in, pick my bird, shoot. I then send my dog for the downed quail. Let's replay this with the unsteady dog. The dog points solid. The owner steps in and the first quail launches. The dog rips past him and runs right through the main body of the covey and it's ABSOLUTE MAYHEM!! Birds everywhere, dog wheeling and spinning, shots going off but watch out for the dog!!! You might drop a bird but.....can't find it in the flurry! NOT good! Finally, it has been my experience that waterfowling dogs are the strongest retrievers. NOT because they are born better at retrieving but because of the method of success. Really good waterfowl dogs mark incredibly well and can then be sent for multiple dead birds in that variety of settings - water, reeds, fields, etc. What makes them especially successful? It's their high aptitude for MARKING. Your pointing dog might not have that acute ability to mark but he still has one. It is virtually NULIFIED by the unsteady dog. Imagine the disastrous result coming from a Lab launching out of a blind as ducks drop into the blocks or at the initial sight/sound of a gun!?!?!? Good luck finding those downed ducks!
As for running birds - and to Sharon's point - if "I'm judging" and a dog self-relocates, I admire that, rather than fault the dog HOWEVER, a bird CANNOT be bumped in the process! A steady, savvy dog will learn to self-relocate successfully. Another steady dog might need your support and be sent on to relocate the runner but again, in neither case can the dog bump the runner. As I said, it's not hard for the dog....
Finally, when you sift through these details, with a properly trained dog, you end up with a better dog, have more fun, are provided with more quality opportunities to shoot birds with the added bonus of better table fare! ;)
Good post and an explanation for the rationale which I understand the need for. Guess I'm just more recreational hunter the competitive one. As for lineage can't say either way as Stella and her son are products of a hunter with decent dogs propagating the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
Don't know if anyone would score her as a well trained dog but Stella works well enough for me. I like this clip showing what I believe is a bit of intuitive dog work to keep the bird in play. You'll see where she relocates when she figures I'm having trouble finding the bird, than later relocates to get in front of the running bird. Can I say I taught her that no. Did she play the game long enough to put it together yup.
https://youtu.be/DigEiXYkQFw
" and to Sharon's point - if "I'm judging" and a dog self-relocates, I admire that, rather than fault the dog HOWEVER, a bird CANNOT be bumped in the process! A steady, savvy dog will learn to self-relocate successfully. Another steady dog might need your support and be sent on to relocate the runner but again, in neither case can the dog bump the runner. As I said, it's not hard for the dog..." Ugo
Got it. Thanks for the explanation.(Welcome back :) )
Ugo, great post and well laid out ( cause and effect ). Throughly enjoyed reading through it.