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new to the forum been trying to get confirmation on the following, taken both the firearms and hunting course passed both. PAL registration has been submitted and is input in the system(i called to inquire. was told should have in a few weeks). i went to obtain my outdoors card today and recieved three sepereate tags, temp outdoors card 3yr, small game 3yr and fishing licence. am i ok to hunt using a friends firearm or do i need to wait for formal PAL documentation?
thanks in advance
I believe, legally, you must possess the card. I recall awhile back asking the processing center (as mine expired) if I could just print out the status of my application from their website as it stated "Approved, should arrive in blah blah"Quote:
Originally Posted by BSKA
And I was told no, I must actually possess the card.
As TR mentioned, the answer is NO if you're hunting on your own, or with a friend and your own firearm. If you're hunting with someone else, using their firearm (i.e. there is only one between you) then the answer is, I dunno :). There may be a distinction there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BSKA
Call and ask but i'd say NO as it is a POSSESION licence and without it you CANNOT posses a firearm no mater who owns it..if it is in your hands then you are in possesion of it without a possesion licence...i may be wrong so phone and ask the proper authorities.
You must have either the POL or the PAL to be in posession of a firearm at anytime
As far as I know, an unlicenced individual can operate a firearm, provided they are under direct and immediate supervision of an individual licenced for that class of firearm.
contact the RCMP.
That's right .Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
TD
That's right, which is why my son could partake in a youth trap shoot last year (and why I can take my daugher and her friend out plinking tomorrow :) ). But not sure if that applies to hunting. I think it may though. IIRC when my son and I bow hunted and he had his apprentice hunting license we had to share a bow. That's a bit crazy, but it's because they're assuming we're actually sharing a gun - and he didn't have his PAL. So i think the question is valid and the answer may actually be yes (but I'm confident enough to suggest that's the right answer).Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
that is correct. That person can not be outside of arms reach of you and the firearm.
Nick
Wheel is correct. A PAL has nothing to do with hunting whatsoever. You can hunt without a PAL.
What you can't do is buy or possess a firearm without a PAL. The way around that is that you can shoot a gun without a firearms license as long as you are under the "direct supervision of an adult 18 years or older who has a firearms license for the category of the firearms you wish to shoot."
"Direct Supervision" is, as always the case when looking for certainty, not defined in law and subject to interpretation. If the supervising person is also carrying a firearm and 100 yards away, is that direct supervision? Or does the supervising PAL holder need to be without a gun and immediately next to the non-PAL hunter?
They certinly don't go out of their way to make the firearms laws clear to everyone. I just got my grandson 'minor carry permit' [ between 15 and 18] it took forever, and nobody seemed to be able to answer direct questions while doing it. Had to deal with O.P.P, R.C.M.P, and D.R.P.S.:whacked:Quote:
Originally Posted by GRAARG
That is correct. Direct supervision requires you to be as near to the person as is practicle and not engaged in any other activity (including your own shooting).Quote:
Or does the supervising PAL holder need to be without a gun and immediately next to the non-PAL hunter?
By the time my Minors permit came in (I had the cabron copy I was allowed to carry) but by the time the plastic actually arrived, I was no longer a minor and it was useless lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
I looked up the wording to be more sure. In the Firearms Act is uses the term "direct and immediate supervision" and, while not a defined term, I would interpret that to mean the person needs to be pretty close by and not principally engaged in something else.
See: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...n+direct#s-33.
As long as your with someone who has their PAL they can use a Firearm under that persons supervision. However you still may require your Hunting Tags and Licenses to hunt game.
ANYONE in possession of a firearm MUST have a PAL or POL(if still valid meaning unexpired). To NOT do so leaves one open to a criminal charge of "unlawful possession of a firearm". Anyone "in direct supervision" must be actively engaged with the shooter and only one firearm is allowed between both shooters. The only instance where a hunter doesn't need a PAL is when using archery equipment,only. Of course,a hunting license is always a "must have".
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
Bingo,,,,,,,,,,,,
Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Can you show me where it says only one firearm???
Got to be careful with those broad statements there Trimmer !!! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
So you can't have a nap while supervising? That's an integral part of hunting for me.
I've always heard people talk about the "1 gun between them" thing, but have never officially seen a law / rule on it?
This is from the RCMP.
No where on the page does it mention, 1 gun.Quote:
Firearm Owners and Users Aged 18 and Older
PDF Format
Licence Requirements
It is necessary to have a firearms licencein order to possess or borrow a firearm or to acquire, by any means, a firearm or ammunition.
Exception: A licence is not necessary to borrow a firearm if the borrower remains under the direct and immediate supervision of a properly licensed adult aged 18 or older.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...etaire-eng.htm
And for Minors,
And Further,Quote:
Firearm Users Younger than 18
PDF Format
Those under 18 years of age are not permitted to bring firearms into Canada or to acquire firearms by any means, even as a gift, but they are allowed to use them under some circumstances.
Minor’s Licence
A minor’s licence permits the borrowing of non-restricted firearms (ordinary rifles and shotguns) for the following activities:
A minor's licence also permits the acquisition of ammunition, unless there is an age restriction under provincial or territorial law.
- target practice
- organized shooting competitions
- hunting
- being instructed in the use of firearms
Again, no mention of only 1 gun.Quote:
Using Firearms Without a Minor’s Licence
Without a minor’s licence, the minor may still use firearms of any class, providing they are under the direct and immediate supervision of someone who is licensed to possess that class of firearm. This generally means that the licensed person must be close enough to them to take immediate action to prevent any unsafe or illegal use of the firearm.
This provision affects cadets and members of other youth organizations who receive instruction in the use of firearms or who take part in target practice. It also applies to young people who go hunting or who use restricted or prohibited firearms in organized shooting competitions.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...mineur-eng.htm
It doesn't, it says:Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
33. Subject to section 34, a person may lend a firearm only if
(a) the person
(i) has reasonable grounds to believe that the borrower holds a licence authorizing the borrower to possess that kind of firearm, and
(ii) in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, lends the registration certificate for it to the borrower; or
(b) the borrower uses the firearm under the direct and immediate supervision of the person in the same manner in which the person may lawfully use it.
Full Firearms Act here:http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/
I think that interpretation is just that, an interpretation which is typically communicated during the CFSC or by cops, MNR, etc. There is almost no case law precedent for this sort of thing so a judge has never had to decide what "direct and immediate" means. And as it is not defined in the Act, it is up to us to argue about what it means! In truth, until a judge decides and precedent is set, who knows what it means.
Lots of areas like this.
ie., #1 Ammo storage is regulated in the Criminal Code and it is a crime to store ammo "carelessly" but that is not a defined term nor is their any real case law precedent for what "careless" storage of ammo means - how much ammo, how it is stored, where it is stored, etc.
ie #2 the section in the Firearms Act about the storage of non-restricted firearms has the clause "it is not readily accessible to ammunition" - what does readily accessible mean? Lots of CFSC instructors have opinions about it as others do but there is no case law about what "readily accessible" means - ammo 5 feet away from the gun? 3 floors up? In the garage when you gun is under the bed? Similarly there is almost no case law precedent.
So, unless it is defined in the Act or there is case law, use your best judgement and err on the side of caution. Even then, if you run unto an officer who interprets it differently, you may end up in court.
LOL . Again another thread that comes under " interpretation " but by gosh we'll get the " interpretation " right on the money here " . LMAO . I think I'll wait for the " interpretation " of a real judge and if I don't like his " interpretation " . APPEAL . LOL . Odds are I will even win because the law is so vague and maybe even sue . I get a chuckle out of all the wannabe lawyers and judges and heah even co's and cops on here . LMAO . We'll all be posting from behind bars soon with the judicial system of "ood forums " at the helm . LOL
TD
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
I believe the OP asked about hunting,not shooting,specifically. Did I misread the intention? I know when doing any instruction whether formal (which I'm not qualified to do) or informal,it's quite permissible to use any number of firearms. Can someone please clarify?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
wow, opened a can of worms here lol! maybe i will just wait for the PAL to come through thus no issues. i have searched this board and net, thus still no clear cut answer. lots of grey areas, not worth the battle in court if i where asked while hunting.
thanks for all the replies. i will call rcmp tomorrow just to see if i get an answer, will post back if i do.
Mooboy76 is correct. You can hunt or target shoot without a pol/pal if you are under direct supervision of a licensed person.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
If you have a friend who is willing to let you borrow a gun, you can hunt with him, with 2 guns, and shoot your limit, no problem. Totally legal, as long as you are within arms reach. That is straight from the mouunties. My PAL expired, and I continued to hunt with my dad using his gun. I had a printed email right from the CFC, but tossed it since. Call them, they will tell you the right answer. Asking here will only get you opinions. Half the guys here have no idea what they're talking about!! The people at the cfc defined direct supervision as being within arms reach.
S.
Come now Sinker . You actually listened to anything from the CFC . I'm surprised you could even understand any voice from there . LOL . Most times I spoke to them I had to guide them through the process and speaking english or french was definately not their mother tongue . I still think I was talking to a call center often in Pakistan or India but I could be wrong and it might have been Syria or something . I do know it wasn't Nuktuk,French or English or any of the Iroquois or Objibway dialects .;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
Arms length ? . Well I'm Spiderman . If they told you that then they are full of b.s . But I am spiderman dontcha know . LOL:D:fish:
TD
:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
I haven't either - but I suspect it's overlapping with the apprentice/minor hunting thing. When my son and I started hunting and he didn't have a full license, it was very clear that we were only allowed one firearm between us. Perhaps that requirement is not the case when the two hunters are both adults - but everything I was told during our hunting course was that with a minor apprentice hunter it was absolutely one firearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkeyRookie
Which was really a pita since we were bow hunters at the time, and we could only bring one bow out (and his bow at the time was way smaller than me).
You are referring to the apprentice hunter which is provincial law, while firearms possession is federal law.
Correct as long as hte licenced owner is within reach. How many people have been to a gun range without a licence.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
PLUS you do not need a PAL/POL to bow hunt
[QUOTE=410001661;591732]Correct as long as hte licenced owner is within reach. How many people have been to a gun range without a licence.
Exactly! How would a person learn enough gun handling to get his PAL if they could not hold the gun under their control. Similarly, if I take a young friend out to my range, I will probably be taking more than one gun for them/us to use/practise with.
False.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Not false.See post #26Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
X2:moose:
It's time we all got on the same page with a definition of " possession". If I hand you my gun to look at or hold while I climb the fence, load the ATV, open the door, or shoot at a target, then you are in possession of the gun in a physical sense, NOT a legal sense. If you are loaned a vehicle that has a shotgun in the trunk, then you are legally in possession of that gun, even if you didn't know it was there.
I'm not really sure what post 26 is saying. Care to clarify your stance?Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The only law that says anything about having only one firearm is as an apprentice hunter which is under the age of 14 or 15. That is provincial legislation.
So given your rationale, if I give you a pound of dope to hold, you are not in the "legal" possession ?? If you are holding a firearm....you are most definitely in "possession", legal or otherwise. Just to clarify !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat32rf
It would be illegal for anyone (who doesn't have a medical or legal reason) to "hold" a pound of dope. It would not be illegal for a person with no POL/PAL to hold my unloaded rifle while I locked my truck or climbed into a boat etc.:scream:
There is no law that states you cannot pick up and look at or test the feel of a rifle unless you have a PAL. How would you expect someone to learn enough to pass the PAL test or even get interested in shooting if they needed a PAL before picking up a gun?
Quote:
Originally Posted by patvetzal
Right you are.....my point was to clarify the "possession" aspect for Pat32rf...
Why doesn't someone ask the feds what the rule is instead of arguing a bunch of opinions?? I did it, and got my answer in writing. Believe me or don't. I don't really care. Why anyone would ev en ask this question on a hunting forum is beyond me. The answer is a simple phone call away!!
S.
Sorry,I meant post #25. :ashamed: The OP was asking about hunting,specifically. My intention was merely to answer a very simple question with an equally simple answer. I wasn't addressing any "hypotheticals" and certainly wasn't commenting on the vagaries of the legislation. :confused: This thread seems to have gone off on it's own tangent.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
Legally you must have it on your persons, UNLESS.......
A person with a valid PAL acompanies you and stays with you with only 1 firearm, then you can legally shoot.
I got stopped this yr with my son who does not have his right now and he was in care of the firearm. But I was with him and there was nothing they could do but check my card.
I let my kids shoot 22,20 and 410 quite often under supervision and YES its legal, even my 7 yr old gets in on it....
I asked the CFC about this in 2006.
Here is their reply.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Canada Firearms Centre - Centre des armes à feu Canada" <[email protected]>
To:
Subject: RE: Using a firearm under supervision
Date: May 23, 2006 10:35 AM
Thank you for your correspondence.
Direct and Immediate Supervision
If a person wishes to hunt and does not have a valid federal firearm license he/she may do so under the direct and immediate supervision of a properly licensed adult, providing there are no court orders prohibiting this individual from possessing firearms.
Federally, for minors and unlicensed adults being under direct and immediate supervision means that they should be close enough to a licensed person when in possession of the firearm to allow the licensed individual to intervene to remove the firearm should it be required.
In addition, please verify this procedure with your local department responsible for hunting regulations, as your province may have requirements over and above the federal requirements.
Sincerely,
Brenda
CPS Communications
________________________________
From: ]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:24 PM
To: Canada Firearms Centre - Centre des armes à feu Canada
Subject: Using a firearm under supervision
Is it necessary for a person to have a POL, PAL, Minor's Permit or other certificate to use a firearm for target practice or hunting under the supervision of the licensed gun owner?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for posting that Justin. Thats pretty much the exact explanation I got as well. There's nothing in there about one gun!!!
S.
im pretty sure you would have to share the gun so id say just wait for your pal to come in!
my wife and i hunt all the time and i am the only one with a pal we are allways together a pol lets you borrow a gun not buy one
LOL....."pretty sure"...based on what???Quote:
Originally Posted by tarantola911
Quote:
Originally Posted by snortwheez
Snort, where do you get the "one gun" from??
I first got it from the Firearms centre over the phone and then from a family member that is a police officer.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent
There reasoning over this was the fact that if I also had a firearm, i'm not able to take control quickly if need be.
The officers that checked us were not complete dicks, but agreed that only one gun was allowwed apprentice or not because he had no PAL
Fair enough, however I think that is just a specific person's intrepretations.Quote:
Originally Posted by snortwheez
There is nothing written in the FA that states it must only be one firearm.
[QUOTE=Pat32rf;591862]I agree with the above or everyone taking the hunting or PAL course would be in violation when handling a firearm, which they must do, during the course.Quote:
Originally Posted by 410001661
The reason why I looked up this old post was because a friend of mine let his Pal expire and is waiting for the renewal to come in and wants to come hunting with me and borrow one of my guns. He has his licenses and turkey tag but not his PAL yet. I think he is good to hunt but there does not seem to be any clear answer. I have never been asked to see my PAL other than buying guns or ammo.
[QUOTE=ihunt;972762]Easy solution....sit together and you are good to go !Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat32rf
[QUOTE=ihunt;972762]Those are all deactivated firearms, so that comparison is a bit apples & oranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat32rf
Why are people necroing three year old threads?
John Snow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Lol. Well played!Quote:
Originally Posted by mooboy76
[QUOTE=ihunt;972762]It looks like Section 91(4)(a) of the Criminal Code applies to your situation. Sit together and it's all good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat32rf