Shopping at Sail... Weird

Stopped by Sail the other day on my way to shoot trap - Found a decent deal on a box of 7 1/2 shot shells and picked up a bunch other stuff.

Guy behind the 2nd floor gun counter tells me I have to cash out at customer service at the back of the main floor because of the ammo.

Ok...

So I take all my stuff down to customer service, show my PAL (they write the number down in a logbook - not sure how I feel about that, but whatever) and I pay.

Everything goes in a Sail bag and I head toward the exit with my <>$300 receipt in hand.

Girl at the front door asks to see my receipt...

Proceeds to slowly dig through my bag and match up each and every item.

It just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Just a thought for the management at Sail - It might be a good idea to put your customer service at the exit instead of conducting a protracted investigation of your paying customers on the way out.

There's nothing so unique at your store that isn't available in shops where I don't get shaken down at the exit.

100% agree. I have bought quite a bit of ammo there and its a pain.

I found that same problem , it's a total pain in the , I usually go in buy my shells take them to the truck and come back in to finish my shopping, that way front desk has nothing to go through, they see flat of shells and receipt in hand and let you go through

It's a proven loss deterrent... to stop shop lifting. WalMart has been doing it for many many years.

I don't blame a store for doing it and don't mind letting them take a quick look. Don't know why peole would consider it enough of an irritant to complain about it, must be a slow day :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

...don't mind letting them take a quick look.

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This wasn't a quick look - It was a minute or more of pulling items out of a shopping bag and matching up each item on the receipt.

Perhaps I could be accused of having rich-white-guy complex, but I don't accept that everyone shopping in a store is automatically a shoplifting suspect.

Building policies around that premise is a proven race to the bottom in terms of brand equity.

I guess the comparison to Wal Mart is appropriate - Bet the owners of Sail wouldn't be too happy with that...

I'm going to stick to my local gun shop for shooting supplies in the future. :thumbup:

I wouldn't shop there for hunting stuff..

more of a camping store... not crazy about it... another Quebec retailer that WONT last here... Maxi & Co, Metro, Steinberg, and on and on.. they can't complete with the big boys (Uncle Sam)

What's the big deal. Many other stores have been doing it. If you've got nothing to hide no sweat. With all the types of bags that people are carrying around its no wonder loss prevention is being enforced.

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

This wasn't a quick look - It was a minute or more of pulling items out of a shopping bag and matching up each item on the receipt.

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I can't believe someone is so tightly wound the axle that a "minute' of the time to help a store with loss prevention, in order to keep the cost/prices lower, would be enough of an irritant to stop you from ever shopping there again...

That's like refusing to drive because the OPP set up a RIDE checks..:silly:

Shoplifting facts:

• theft and measures to prevent theft constitute about 2.5 per cent of the average retailer’s operating budget
• Canadian retailers estimate they lose between one and 4.5 per cent of merchandise to shoplifting
• Nationwide, $3-billion worth of products are stolen through shoplifting, store employees and administrative errors

I agree with you Mike!
If it takes 1 or 2 mins whats the big deal?
If you got nothing to hide who cares!
I have no problem with them checking, in fact if they do this to every1 no 1 is singled out! And when the ''Theif'' sees this makes them think twice! If it keeps our costs down that is ''good'' enough for me!
flip

I think the problem here is that the store's management has laid things out so that anyone buying ammunition has to go through this hassle. If they let you pay for the ammo at the front, they wouldn't be checking receipts.

This is also a scenario that bugs me. From my understanding of the laws in Ontario you legally do not have to allow anyone to search any of your bags. Store owners and employees can not detain you only the police have that power. It really more of a courtesy on the shoppers part. Now on the other hand if you like shopping at this store you may want to let them have a peek because the store can refuse future service.

I do t steal. I understand a quick look in my bags. That isn't the problem. I've shopped at sail a few times e cause I live 5 mins away from the Oshawa one. And I don't like it there. The staff don't know much and it's impossible to get any real help. I've never had a problem with them checking my bags though. Over all I don't like them I no do %99 percent of my shopping at gagnons just like I used to. The staff are good and they know what there talking a out.

Point is that you just can't beat those good old mom and pop shops.



On another note I remember when zellers shut down I went and bout a coffee maker and a few other things ( can't remember ) and the security guard said can I look in your bag said sure gave him my receipt and he goes to put his hand in my bag. I took a step back and just said not happening and walked away he tried to follow me to my truck and it looked like he was righting my plate # down. Nothing ever came from it and i never went back there I'm not a thief and i don't want to be treated like one. I'm ok with a look in the bag and a check of my receipt and if you see something that is t on the list then we step aside. And we deal with it.

It's a big deterrent being treated like a thief

The "Bag Checker" thing can back fire on a store as well. Had a case in a Department store when I work in NB. They had a couple of nice "young" ladies( Seasonal staff) politely checking bags at Christmas. A man and woman in their 20's where asked by one of the girls to show them a receipt and the stuff in the bag. The man and woman after a quick exchanged look said "NO." The other girl signalled a head cashier and the couple where taken to a table/counter in full view of the other customers and the bag was emptied. This young just married couple had to stand there, well two teen aged girls removed "VERY PERSONAL" items from the bag and placed them on the counter top.

I got to filed the reports and give statements to the police( Possible charges against the cashier for allowing the girls to do the search), as well as drive to Head office to explain what happened to the District Manager. The store was sued by the couple, and sued by the parents of both of the girls.



When I talked to the couple, they said the reason( only reason ) they said no to the girl was because she was too young. If the older cashier or an older person had asked to look in the bag they would have been OK with the bag check.

I was at costco with my mom one time and they wanted to look in her purse! I thought my mom was going to beat the guy with it! She told them there is absolutely no way they were checking her purse, or our bags, and we walked out. The security guy followed, and grabbed my mom by the arm asking her to stop. That's when I stepped in and told the guy if he didn't take his hands off my mom we were going to have a very serious problem.

He let go, and we left. Lucky for him he made the right choice!

S.

I don't have an issue with stores doing security, but it should be handled better. Don't make anyone feel like a thief. On another note, Sail sucks for ordering anything in that is not in stock. But I can get lebarons or Al Flarety to order anything I need without the b.s of its got to be 500.00 worth that I got at Sail

It's not the fact they check your bags it's the fact that when u but ammo you check out at a different checkout at back of store, why not put the checkout for ammo at the front door, less issues and a lot less hassle for customer and employee

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Originally Posted by flippin

If you got nothing to hide who cares!

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Oh boy...

http://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/d...nces_sheep.jpg

Sail is not doing anything to make hunter feel like home. Checking out at the customer service is just not right, last Sunday I had to wait ten minutes behind someone that was bringing stuff back. I mentioned to somewhat of a manager that I felt like at Walmart. I won't be back there for sure unless their change their attitude toward us.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

It's a proven loss deterrent... to stop shop lifting. WalMart has been doing it for many many years.

I don't blame a store for doing it and don't mind letting them take a quick look. Don't know why peole would consider it enough of an irritant to complain about it, must be a slow day :)

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After having to wait at the customer service and then having to open your bag it might get a bit irritating, no?

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

Stopped by Sail the other day on my way to shoot trap - Found a decent deal on a box of 7 1/2 shot shells and picked up a bunch other stuff.

Guy behind the 2nd floor gun counter tells me I have to cash out at customer service at the back of the main floor because of the ammo.

Ok...

So I take all my stuff down to customer service, show my PAL (they write the number down in a logbook - not sure how I feel about that, but whatever) and I pay.

Everything goes in a Sail bag and I head toward the exit with my <>$300 receipt in hand.

Girl at the front door asks to see my receipt...

Proceeds to slowly dig through my bag and match up each and every item.

It just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Just a thought for the management at Sail - It might be a good idea to put your customer service at the exit instead of conducting a protracted investigation of your paying customers on the way out.

There's nothing so unique at your store that isn't available in shops where I don't get shaken down at the exit.

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I would have returned it! Havent left the store it's their problem.

Next time I'd say no. They have no authority to detain you unless they have reasonable grounds to believe you stole something IMO.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I can't believe someone is so tightly wound the axle that a "minute' of the time to help a store with loss prevention, in order to keep the cost/prices lower, would be enough of an irritant to stop you from ever shopping there again...

That's like refusing to drive because the OPP set up a RIDE checks..:silly:

Shoplifting facts:

• theft and measures to prevent theft constitute about 2.5 per cent of the average retailer’s operating budget
• Canadian retailers estimate they lose between one and 4.5 per cent of merchandise to shoplifting
• Nationwide, $3-billion worth of products are stolen through shoplifting, store employees and administrative errors

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More like apples to oranges. The items in the bag are now HIS property he paid for it. What right do they have to detain him?

A check point where you have a legal obligation to stop.

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Originally Posted by archie126

They have no authority to detain you unless they have reasonable grounds to believe you stole something IMO.

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Even then they can't detain you. They have to witness you stealing before they can detain you.

But that's neither here nor there, and whether stores should check receipts as people leave is neither here nor there.

The problem here is that Sail is set up so you pay for ammo in the back and then walk to the front, where obviously they have to then check that you paid for it. If you paid for ammo up front, no bag check would be required. They've laid the store out in a way that causes a hassle for customers, and that's just dumb.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Even then they can't detain you. They have to witness you stealing before they can detain you.

But that's neither here nor there, and whether stores should check receipts as people leave is neither here nor there.

The problem here is that Sail is set up so you pay for ammo in the back and then walk to the front, where obviously they have to then check that you paid for it. If you paid for ammo up front, no bag check would be required. They've laid the store out in a way that causes a hassle for customers, and that's just dumb.

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I agree the problem stems from the store policy but what can they do if you say no I am leaving and you walk out?

I will also agree with your witness statement above.

Which store was that? I bought ammo at both Burlington and Etobicoke stores and never experienced that. Yes, I paid for the ammo at the customer service at the back, but they put my stuff in their plastic bags and nobody bothered me at the checkout at the front, I just walked through it.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

It's a proven loss deterrent... to stop shop lifting. WalMart has been doing it for many many years.

I don't blame a store for doing it and don't mind letting them take a quick look. Don't know why peole would consider it enough of an irritant to complain about it, must be a slow day :)

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i agree - it's not like they are selling vegetables....

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Originally Posted by archie126

I agree the problem stems from the store policy but what can they do if you say no I am leaving and you walk out?

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Doodly squat in the real world, of course. Nobody's going to put his hands on you to stop you.

Do what you choose but as a gun owner buying ammunition do you really want to risk having a retailer call the police into this situation of having someone look into your bags? The police forces in the GTA are extremely antigun and whatever the laws are will mean nothing if some rookie cowboy decides you are going to lick the floor for having the gall to question his authority. Even if you are within your rights they could still go to your home and clean out every firearm you have. It could cost you months of anguish and thousands of dollars to get your property back. The officer has basically nothing at risk and you have everything to lose. Let them look in your bag unless you have something to hide.

I like Sail nor do I mind having to go to CS. As someone else said, if your there to do some shopping, do that first. If your asked to show your bag it takes 2 seconds as you walk out the store. Put it in the car and then go shop. If thats all your there for, it takes 2 seconds as you walk past any people in line at the registers.

At the end of the day, we usually have the choice to let something get under our skin or not.

Terry, they wouldn't do that. As Welsh stated you can't be detained on suspicion, it has to be witnessed. Detaining someone illegally is asking for a whole lot of trouble

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Originally Posted by Grasu200

i agree - it's not like they are selling vegetables....

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Do you have to go to custommer service when you buy a knife? They are not vegetable either!

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Originally Posted by terrym

Do what you choose but as a gun owner buying ammunition do you really want to risk having a retailer call the police into this situation of having someone look into your bags? The police forces in the GTA are extremely antigun and whatever the laws are will mean nothing if some rookie cowboy decides you are going to lick the floor for having the gall to question his authority. Even if you are within your rights they could still go to your home and clean out every firearm you have. It could cost you months of anguish and thousands of dollars to get your property back. The officer has basically nothing at risk and you have everything to lose. Let them look in your bag unless you have something to hide.

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Are we still in Canada? How?

I worked retail for over 30 years and my concern isn't that you were stopped but you aliowed them to search your bag. They are not allowed to unless it is a safety or threat concern. Next time they ask say no unless they place you under arrest and see there reaction

Why are you guys so bend on making life difficult for some poor hourly guy who was told it's his job to confirm the content of the bags match the receipt as customers leave the store...it's corporate policy, not his. Giving him a hard time does nothing but make his life less fun....turn around and walk back to the customer service desk and complain to them..do something productive......or let the guy do his job and move on.

Man some of you must live under allot of stress or have a lot of pent up anger if it's stuff like this that gets you bent out of shape....

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Originally Posted by oaknut

This is also a scenario that bugs me. From my understanding of the laws in Ontario you legally do not have to allow anyone to search any of your bags. Store owners and employees can not detain you only the police have that power. It really more of a courtesy on the shoppers part. Now on the other hand if you like shopping at this store you may want to let them have a peek because the store can refuse future service.

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Store security can detain you - happens to shoplifters all the time.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Why are you guys so bend on making life difficult for some poor hourly guy who was told it'd his job to confirm the content of the bags match the receipt as customers leave the store...it's corporate policy, not his. Giving him a hard time does nothing but make his life less fun....turn around and walk back to the customer service desk and complain to them..do something productive......or let the guy do his job and move on.

Man some of you must live under allot of stress or have a lot of up anger if it's stuff like this that gets you bent out of shape....

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I think we're drifting a bit from the original point - I didn't give the cashier a hard time - On the contrary - I let her check my bag, politely thanked her and left.

Within a dozen posts some guys are making it sound like I tried to shoot my way out of there... :whacked:

The main point is that I have a right to vote with my dollar - Based on the STRUCTURALLY poor shopping experience at Sail, all of my future dollars will go exclusively to retailers that don't lay out their stores in such a way that necessitates a policy of searching their customers on the way out.

The secondary point is that as far as big box stores go, Sail is just not that good... MEC is far better for camping gear and Bass Pro is far better for shooting & hunting gear. And guess what? Neither of them search me on the way out... ;-)

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Originally Posted by JBen

Terry, they wouldn't do that. As Welsh stated you can't be detained on suspicion, it has to be witnessed. Detaining someone illegally is asking for a whole lot of trouble

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Who says they have to detain you?. Sail is more of a camping store than a gun store. Who's to say that they don't have some over zealous flip flop wearing anti hunter working there. All it takes is a chain of escalating mistakes by untrained staff and you have the biggest problem of your life. We're talking GTA here. One poor guy's kid drew a picture of a gun and he was cuffed and dragged away to have his anal cavity searched and his kids taken away. When they hear Gun or bullets you had best be careful. Hey it's no skin off my nose but I make a point of flying under the radar in and around the GTA when it comes to anything related to firearms.

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

I think we're drifting a bit from the original point - I didn't give the cashier a hard time - On the contrary - I let her check my bag, politely thanked her and left.

Within a dozen posts some guys are making it sound like I tried to shoot my way out of there... :whacked:

The main point is that I have a right to vote with my dollar - Based on the STRUCTURALLY poor shopping experience at Sail, all of my future dollars will go exclusively to retailers that don't lay out their stores in such a way that necessitates a policy of searching their customers on the way out.

The secondary point is that as far as big box stores go, Sail is just not that good... MEC is far better for camping gear and Bass Pro is far better for shooting & hunting gear. And guess what? Neither of them search me on the way out... ;-)

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I agree with you. I have been to Sail many times and have yet to see them anywhere near busy. I think they may have over estimated the outdoors market. Looks like this category is "over retailed" already and someone is going to go belly up. Unfortunately its likely to be the smaller shops first.

Well theres always the possibility of running into someone who is "anti" or fearful. <Suspect this latter has something to do with Sails policy ( its not a hunting store...its an outdoor store whose demographic is very wide). All the more reason not to do something that "could" potentially escalate into something worse.

My point is they (the store) can't detain you, hold you. They could only do so, if they witnessed theft and make a citizens arrest or if store security witnessed it. I think they (store security) are legally termed an officer of the queen/court (dont recall specifics). Either way unless they are willing to risk legal hot water (potentially including false arrest) they couldnt hold you while waiting for LEO, nor could they use the information in the book to send LEO to your house...On what grounds?

Is it an inconvenience? Sure it is, but we have the choice and the ability to let it affect us or not.

Not sure what the legalities are but my neice works retail and my oldest daughter also does part time and when shoplifters are caught the mall security takes them into an office and holds them until police get there. I don't have a clue if they have the right to do so but it's how it is handled.

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Originally Posted by seabast

Are we still in Canada? How?

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You pose a good question.
The situation we are in is the result of the disease called liberalism, which is just a western version of communism.
Think about it, they even want to control the light bulbs we use in our homes.
But let's hope Canada is slowly but surely recovering.

At least at Sail they give you your ammo in a sealed pouchand allow you to finish you shopping. At CT you are escorted to the check-outand the clerk carries the ammo. How’s that for making one feel like a criminal?I asked the guy what they do when someone buys something really dangerous likean axe or a sledgehammer because without a firing pin and a chamber the ammo isuseless. Got told not to be smart.
And try to buy fishing tackle at the Ancaster CT. A fewseconds at the door checking receipts is nothing compared to the time wastedwaiting for a clerk to tear himself away from his whatever important job he isdoing then saunter over to the fishing section to unlock the display cases allwhile sighing and asking if that will be all in a tone of voice that implies that I’m the one inconveniencinghim.

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Originally Posted by JBen

Is it an inconvenience? Sure it is, but we have the choice and the ability to let it affect us or not.

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We also can choose to have standards by which we expect to be treated.

Retailing is a competitive sector - As a company, the way you treat your customers depends on what segment you're competing for...

If you're after a (relatively) wealthy client base with enough disposable income to buy a $1000 4-season tent and enough time to use it, then you probably don't want to treat them like they're shopping at Wal-Mart next to the guy with poop stained track pants who's trying to steal baby formula.

;)

When your at the Tims drive through and the car up ahead places a huge order.
When your at the ATM and the person ahead of you starts paying bill after bill after bill.
When your at the other big box and have to take a number and wait and wait and wait.
We have the power to choose to let it get under our skin............................ or not :)

Its all in how you look at it, and what you choose to let affect you.

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Originally Posted by JBen

When your at the Tims drive through and the car up ahead places a huge order.
When your at the ATM and the person ahead of you starts paying bill after bill after bill.
When your at the other big box and have to take a number and wait and wait and wait.
We have the power to choose to let it get under our skin............................ or not :)

Its all in how you look at it, and what you choose to let affect you.

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None of the minor irritants you've listed involve the systematic questioning of a person's character.

For me at least, that's the difference.

Thats fair.
When your in a rush to hit the road and get to the cottage/vacation and waiting for what seems forever and your carded at the beer store/lcbo....;)

When you get a text late at night while cuddling with your wife and she ask "Who was that"...........;)

Point being you don't have to let it get to you. No more, no less.

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Originally Posted by terrym

I agree with you. I have been to Sail many times and have yet to see them anywhere near busy. I think they may have over estimated the outdoors market. Looks like this category is "over retailed" already and someone is going to go belly up. Unfortunately its likely to be the smaller shops first.

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I dont know about that at the sail i go to its never bizzy the guys there must have an easy job. but when im in gagnons my local outdoors store there pretty bizzy. And there vary nice and i don't get watched the hole time im in there. and i get to know most of the staff and i do 99% of my shopping there again i tried sail no good. the only time i go there is when i cant find something at gagnons. i think this time it will be sail thats sent packing and i say good riduns to them....:shades:

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Originally Posted by M_P

At least at Sail they give you your ammo in a sealed pouchand allow you to finish you shopping. At CT you are escorted to the check-outand the clerk carries the ammo. How’s that for making one feel like a criminal?I asked the guy what they do when someone buys something really dangerous likean axe or a sledgehammer because without a firing pin and a chamber the ammo isuseless. Got told not to be smart.
And try to buy fishing tackle at the Ancaster CT. A fewseconds at the door checking receipts is nothing compared to the time wastedwaiting for a clerk to tear himself away from his whatever important job he isdoing then saunter over to the fishing section to unlock the display cases allwhile sighing and asking if that will be all in a tone of voice that implies that I’m the one inconveniencinghim.

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My dad bought an invertor from ct when was with him and we were treated like we stole something the guy walked us to the front and gave it to the cashier didn't even put on the belt. So i asked him so i can buy a fising rod wortho more then the invertor and i dont get walked to the front whats the diffence no answer.

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Originally Posted by JBen

When your at the Tims drive through and the car up ahead places a huge order.
When your at the ATM and the person ahead of you starts paying bill after bill after bill.
When your at the other big box and have to take a number and wait and wait and wait.
We have the power to choose to let it get under our skin............................ or not :)

Its all in how you look at it, and what you choose to let affect you.

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I agree with you100% but this is what gets under my skin. and i wont be treated like that so i stay away from those stores if i can

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Originally Posted by JBen

My point is they (the store) can't detain you, hold you. They could only do so, if they witnessed theft and make a citizens arrest or if store security witnessed it.

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Correct. They have to witness the offence, or they can't detain you.

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Originally Posted by JBen

I think they (store security) are legally termed an officer of the queen/court (dont recall specifics).

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Nope. They have no police powers or special authority.

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Originally Posted by terrym

Not sure what the legalities are but my neice works retail and my oldest daughter also does part time and when shoplifters are caught the mall security takes them into an office and holds them until police get there.

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When shoplifters are caught is the key. Someone sees me put an item in my pocket and try to leave the store, they can hold me. Someone thinks I look fishy and tells me I can't leave until I turn out my pockets for them, that's forcible confinement, a criminal offence.

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Originally Posted by M_P

At least at Sail they give you your ammo in a sealed pouchand allow you to finish you shopping. At CT you are escorted to the check-outand the clerk carries the ammo. How’s that for making one feel like a criminal?

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CT's policy actually requires them to do this for all the stuff in glass cabinets, apparently. It's a stupid way to treat your customers.

You could, of course, be very childish and kind of turn it into a game (eg. something to do on one of those rainy Saturday mornings). Visit the gun desk when it's really busy, and tie-up one of the sales staff for a good hour. Purchase a grade V Beretta over/under, ammo, and maybe something like a Sako Finnlite, with Swarovski scope and rings. A pair of Leica binocs wouldn't hurt either. Let them do their bag search thing, then ask to see the manager. Tell him that you are "particularily not fond of their customer service attitude", and return the $7 box of cheap ammo, and decline the other $10K of goods you were going to purchase. When the manager's face goes white, ask him if he likes apples. When he says yes, you do the classic Goodwill line "you do? Well how do you like THEM apples"!".
Alternatively - get you and eight of your buddies to show up in the parking lot, Timmy's in hand. Best if everyone wears a ripped-up Dickies insulated tarten shirt, and an old pair of worn Carhart pants that has the arse ripped out of them. Everyone ditches their street boots and puts on their rubber field hunting boots. Now you open the Tupperware locker tub that you brought. Everyone takes turns coating their boots in the liquid pig e that fills the tub. All nine of you now hit the store, and browse the clothing section that has the nice carpeted floors. Act like you've been personally violated when they ask you to leave.

Oooppps double post

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

You could, of course, be very childish and kind of turn it into a game (eg. something to do on one of those rainy Saturday mornings). Visit the gun desk when it's really busy, and tie-up one of the sales staff for a good hour. Purchase a grade V Beretta over/under, ammo, and maybe something like a Sako Finnlite, with Swarovski scope and rings. A pair of Leica binocs wouldn't hurt either. Let them do their bag search thing, then ask to see the manager. Tell him that you are "particularily not fond of their customer service attitude", and return the $7 box of cheap ammo, and decline the other $10K of goods you were going to purchase. When the manager's face goes white, ask him if he likes apples. When he says yes, you do the classic Goodwill line "you do? Well how do you like THEM apples"!".
Alternatively - get you and eight of your buddies to show up in the parking lot, Timmy's in hand. Best if everyone wears a ripped-up Dickies insulated tarten shirt, and an old pair of worn Carhart pants that has the arse ripped out of them. Everyone ditches their street boots and puts on their rubber field hunting boots. Now you open the Tupperware locker tub that you brought. Everyone takes turns coating their boots in the liquid pig e that fills the tub. All nine of you now hit the store, and browse the clothing section that has the nice carpeted floors. Act like you've been personally violated when they ask you to leave.

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Hahahahaha to funny

im surprised they didnt put the ammo in a big red locked zippered bag.
they did for me.
i had to carry around this bag until i was ready to check out.

Sail has a few odd rules but when im saving money i will go with it.

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Originally Posted by perch hunter

I worked retail for over 30 years and my concern isn't that you were stopped but you aliowed them to search your bag. They are not allowed to unless it is a safety or threat concern. Next time they ask say no unless they place you under arrest and see there reaction

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Yeah... I just keep walking.

'Never had a problem. They follow me so far saying "sir"... "sir"... but then give up.
If they really think I'm stealing they can call the 5-0

I mean I've NEVER sen it posted anywhere at Walmart/Costco or SAIL that visitors are subject to bag searches upon exiting their stores, so... It's not like they're giving you the option to stay outside if you don't want to play their little game.

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Originally Posted by JBen

When your at the Tims drive through and the car up ahead places a huge order.
When your at the ATM and the person ahead of you starts paying bill after bill after bill.
When your at the other big box and have to take a number and wait and wait and wait.
We have the power to choose to let it get under our skin............................ or not :)

Its all in how you look at it, and what you choose to let affect you.

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Good post.
Too many folks on here are too sensitive.
You're all going to have heart trouble before you're 50.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

Oh boy...

http://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/d...nces_sheep.jpg

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I didn't read every single post, but most of them on this ^ I agree. Their prices aren't great, the knowledge base doesn't seem to be either. In fact, the prices on their fishing gear is the worst I've seen in S. Ontario. (reels and fish finders, both of which I was shopping for last year) The gun counter is a joke. Unless you're the only one there...you'll have to wait until the little boys club/chit-chat between the staff and some "customers", NOT seeming to buy anything, ends. Every time I'm there. Look for them down by the expensive O/U shotguns. Rant almost over...

I completely resent being "frisked" by staff after paying good money, some 50 yards from where I parted WITH that money. It's insane. I bought a .22 there the first week they opened. They weren't that busy, but it still took almost 20 minutes to get someone's attention, get them to fill out a slip/bill of sale. I had to march that down to customer service, take it (now paid) BACK up the gun counter where the boxed rifle wasn't passed to me....but rather, a twerp from the gun counter who marched me practically to my truck before handing it to me. Felt like I was a shoplifter being escorted out by security. It was embarrassing.

If you want a kayak, backpack, or $20 pair of socks, it's probably a great store. If you want to pay ridiculous prices for fishing gear, get marginal customer service from the gun counter, then be treated like a criminal, SAIL is the place to go.

No thanks.

I've had nothing but good service with friendly staff. I've purchased ammo, camping gear, clothing and hunting/fishing equipment from Sail. Never once asked to see my bag, never once felt I was a burden to the sales associates. In fact, the poor bugger in the camping section in the Burlington store deserves a medal after dealing with me, my wife and 5 year old son for 1.5hrs on a Friday night, while it was busy.....Jeez, lighten people.
I didnt care much for their fishing rod selection so I took my business elsewhere, my choice.

RB

Not everything can be justified based on protecting big box corporate profits against theft.

There was a time (in my lifetime) that a store would not dare do this to a customer unless they KNEW a theft had been attempted (in which case it's justified).

However if we keep up the acceptance of these practices, and we'll end up with CCTV cameras in the change rooms and rest rooms as well.

Or is that ok too?

Where does one draw the line?

Maybe you shoved a fishing lure down your pants... Should we all line up for a cavity search at the exit in order to ensure low low prices?

Sorry guys - The Libertarian in me sees a huge slippery slope when it comes to practices like this, and I won't spend my money at a store that does it.

I think we can all agree that everyone has a right to choose where to shop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Good post.
Too many folks on here are too sensitive.
You're all going to have heart trouble before you're 50.

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Life is short and I just want to be traited like a normal customer. I made my choose and I won't be back to Sail to buy ammo, I don't want to wait again ten minutes at customer service while there is no one at the "normal people" check out. Even Walmart doesn't do that!
And it has nothing to do with sensitive, it all about making it right for every one and trying to change thing. What's wrong with that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Thats fair.
When your in a rush to hit the road and get to the cottage/vacation and waiting for what seems forever and your carded at the beer store/lcbo....;)

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Carded? I wish..:D
When I was a kid they were still working on this new high tech stuff called dirt.. You know how hard it is to get rock stains out of Styracosaurus skin pants( Means spiked lizard):joker:

I haven't had time to read all the posts....

But atleast when you get stopped at the door they actually take the time to check your receipt and what you bought. at Costco they make you line up at the door, than the person pretends that they check your stuff over and put a black line on your receipt. Why am I waiting in line (again) for the illusion of security?

I don't think it should be necessary, especially when they have scanners sensor thingys at the doors anyways!! that being said I would like someone here to prove that they are not allowed to look into your bag on your way out. I believe they are as long as you are on their property, but I could be wrong.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bowj

I would like someone here to prove that they are not allowed to look into your bag on your way out. I believe they are as long as you are on their property, but I could be wrong.....

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Legally speaking, they can ask to look in your bag. If you refuse to comply, they have a choice to make...

They can either let you walk away, or they can attempt a citizens arrest using no more force than is necessary to detain you for the police. Store staff or private security has the same authority that any citizen does. No more, no less.

If you believe you are being falsely arrested by another citizen, you also have the right to use no more force than is necessary to prevent that arrest.

Where I grew up, that's called a fist fight ;)

When asked, I always comply and then never (ever) return - I'm not out to ruin some poor wage-slave's shift or risk a confrontation with an overzealous rent-a-cop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

Not everything can be justified based on protecting big box corporate profits against theft.

There was a time (in my lifetime) that a store would not dare do this to a customer unless they KNEW a theft had been attempted (in which case it's justified).

However if we keep up the acceptance of these practices, and we'll end up with CCTV cameras in the change rooms and rest rooms as well.

Or is that ok too?

Where does one draw the line?

Maybe you shoved a fishing lure down your pants... Should we all line up for a cavity search at the exit in order to ensure low low prices?

Sorry guys - The Libertarian in me sees a huge slippery slope when it comes to practices like this, and I won't spend my money at a store that does it.

I think we can all agree that everyone has a right to choose where to shop.

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I agree I'm not letting anyone check my bags. I find sail totally useless and over priced most of the time. They take forever to help and when they do they don't know anything g so your still left there looking for real help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bowj

I haven't had time to read all the posts....

But atleast when you get stopped at the door they actually take the time to check your receipt and what you bought. at Costco they make you line up at the door, than the person pretends that they check your stuff over and put a black line on your receipt. Why am I waiting in line (again) for the illusion of security?

I don't think it should be necessary, especially when they have scanners sensor thingys at the doors anyways!! that being said I would like someone here to prove that they are not allowed to look into your bag on your way out. I believe they are as long as you are on their property, but I could be wrong.....

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I'm yet to have someone actually stop me and hold me I wouldn't resist if some one came and tried. But you can bet your @$$ you wouldn't be working there when your done humiliating me i front of everyone. I've even had security follow me telling me to stop right to me truck. But never stop me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

Not sure what the legalities are but my neice works retail and my oldest daughter also does part time and when shoplifters are caught the mall security takes them into an office and holds them until police get there. I don't have a clue if they have the right to do so but it's how it is handled.

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Citizens arrest powers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

Legally speaking, they can ask to look in your bag. If you refuse to comply, they have a choice to make...

They can either let you walk away, or they can attempt a citizens arrest using no more force than is necessary to detain you for the police. Store staff or private security has the same authority that any citizen does. No more, no less.

If you believe you are being falsely arrested by another citizen, you also have the right to use no more force than is necessary to prevent that arrest.

Where I grew up, that's called a fist fight ;)

When asked, I always comply and then never (ever) return - I'm not out to ruin some poor wage-slave's shift or risk a confrontation with an overzealous rent-a-cop.

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Exactly. They're not the only show in town, and certainly not the best. Any place that makes Le Baron's customer service look good has got REAL problems. Haven't been to SAIL in months, no plans on going back.

I find it ironic that the people who think having your bags checked as a trivial thing, would probably be the first to complain about registering your guns. Using your logic you have nothing to worry about if you are doing nothing wrong. Freedoms and rights come in all forms

didn't get the point...if there was one...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seabast

Do you have to go to custommer service when you buy a knife? They are not vegetable either!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by perch hunter

I find it ironic that the people who think having your bags checked as a trivial thing, would probably be the first to complain about registering your guns.

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No Irony would be if you complain about having your purchase checked leaving the store, but didn't care they searched you bag pack going in the a Rock Concert in the stadium... (which most do now). Try and refuse to allow them to do that and see if you get thru...you'll be enjoying the concert from the parking lot :)

No idea what's changed these days, maybe nothing, maybe something.

They have the right to detain you if they witness a theft...a citizens arrest..That holds you until LEO arrives, evidence is given and LEO formally charges.At one time in my life a long time ago I was a licensed PI, way back it carried a title of officer of court/queen (not sure). These days security guards, PIs all get licensed, are all trained on powers of arrest, evidence collection and retention.....Am not sure about retail store, loss prevention staff if they are in house. Worked on a number of things, with LEO and others, including a particular place that was experiencing significant losses. Suspicion isn't enough.

That said, if someone does make a citizens arrest advantage them. True they can't use any more force than necessary, but they can use "force" to detain you (just within limits), the more you resist, the more force can be used against you...."fight" them and you could be in more hot water resisting arrest.

Does anybody get bent out of shape at airports where bags are searched? Where your subjected to scans? A sign of times is all. Its an inconvenience, one that is easily avoided and one that is easily ignored and at the end of the day its your choice to let it get under your skin, to let it raise your blood pressure or not.

Stress is not a good thing, trust me.
pick your battles and smell the roses

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

No Irony would be if you complain about having your purchase checked leaving the store, but didn't care they searched you bag pack going in the a Rock Concert in the stadium... (which most do now). Try and refuse to allow them to do that and see if you get thru...you'll be enjoying the concert from the parking lot :)

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That's not really a valid comparison.

Besides, why would you bring a backpack to a 2 hour rock concert?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

the more you resist, the more force can be used against you...."fight" them and you could be in more hot water resisting arrest.

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You'd only be in hot water for resisting if the arrest was justified.

You have every right to resist an unjustified citizens arrest.

But I agree that if you are about to resist or fight, you'd better be sure about the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grasu200

didn't get the point...if there was one...

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Well, you mentioned that Sail is not selling vegetable. So I thought you meant that buying ammo has to be a big deal, going to customer service and bag check.... Knife are no vegetable either and can kill in the wrong hand.... Get it now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

No Irony would be if you complain about having your purchase checked leaving the store, but didn't care they searched you bag pack going in the a Rock Concert in the stadium... (which most do now).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

That's not really a valid comparison.

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What are you talking about..it's the perfect comparison....your willing to drop your indignation for one search but complain about another....you either stick to your scruples or you don't, it's called hypocrisy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

You'd only be in hot water for resisting if the arrest was justified.

You have every right to resist an unjustified citizens arrest.

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Actually, you get onto shaky ground very quickly there. If this was ever to happen to you -- and it's exceedingly unlikely it ever will -- the smart course is to wait for the police and make a complaint against the person who detained you.

You have the right to defend yourself from harm. You don't have a blanket right to get physical whenever anyone touches you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

What are you talking about..it's the perfect comparison....your willing to drop your indignation for one search but complain about another....you either stick to your scruples or you don't, it's called hypocrisy.

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You're getting pretty excited about defending Sail's shoddy business practices there Mike... You own shares or something?

Not sure what in this thread has been said to offend you to the point that you feel the need to start calling people with differing opinions hypocrites, but I never said I would be fine with a search at a concert. You and I must go to different kinds of shows, but I've never been searched at such an event. I guess I don't spend a lot of time in places where people try to stab eachother.

If I were to be searched, the same principle applies - I would consent to the search, and then never again return to that venue.

Airports are a whole different (and political) matter, and while I must travel for work, I don't have to support or extend our growing surveillance society into my private recreational life. I will vote for any party that runs on a platform of dismantling the security theater sham at our airports.

Either way, security screening at a public venue or an airport cannot be compared to a store putting a checkout at the back of the store and then systematically casting suspicion over paying customers at the exit.

The logical fallacy in your argument (if you can call it that) is called the 'Straw Man". Look it up, and you'll cross the 10,000 post mark a wiser man.

It can be "compared" to the extent that it's an inconvenience and they both are. Yeah the reasons for them are very different. Its still an inconvenience and I for dont enjoy waiting to clear customs, all I want to do is get out and home.....then when its my turn, having to hope they dont search my bags looking for a bottle or food Im not supposed to bring back....I can choose to let it get under my skin, or not.

So are many other things, like being carded after waiting in line. Rev Can randomly selecting your tax return out of the millions, likewise isn't an assualt on your character and is no less an inconvenience. Now you need to dig up receipts, package it all neatly, mail it off. It to is an inconveinience like so many other things. Jury duty.

Ride spot checks. Do get your blood up or T off on an officer (not suggesting you T off on the cashier) thats randonmly waived you to the side of the road. Gosh darn, you just want to get home, catch the last period, kiss your child good night....or crawl into bed yourself...

They are little things we put up with. Whether you continue to shop there or not is your choice and one way to deal with it. Just as you feel its an afront, and it gets under your skin, to others it wont or they simply choose not to let it, . It not even a minor hiccup worth blinking over.

/shrug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Ride spot checks. You do get your blood up or T off on an officer thats randonmly waived you to the side of the road. Gosh darn, you just want to get home, catch the last period, kiss your child good night....or crawl into bed yourself...

They are little things we put up with. Whether you continue to shop there or not is your choice and one way to deal with it. Just as you feel its an afront, and it gets under your skin, to others it wont or they simply choose not to let it, . It not even a minor hiccup worth blinking over.

/shrug

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Jben.. One day I hope to achieve your level of tranquility... Sounds like you could teach even the Bhuddists a thing or two along with the rest of us...

Cheers.

Lol Im Irish so dont assume my blood doesnt get up. I've just learned after 20 years in a stressful job, and too many health complications to name not the least of which was heart palpations at 36 and more and all of them related to stress (including a tumor) to "pick my battles".

Many who know me, have called me Mr non chalant, aloof, Mr la, la, la. Accurate enough at times.
But when Dr after Dr is telling you before the age of 40 your a walking heart attack and then have some pretty hairy stuff occur within the span of 6 months and coming really close to checking out by 44.

You learn you have the choice to let things affect you......................or not.
Its actually really easy
:)

Stress kills. Youd be surprised what I dont blink at

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

Lol Im Irish so dont assume my blood doesnt get up. I've just learned after 20 years in a stressful job, and too many health complications to name not the least of which was heart palpations at 36 and more and all of them related to stress (including a tumor) to "pick my battles".

Many who know me, have called me Mr non chalant, aloof, Mr la, la, la. Accurate enough at times.
But when Dr after Dr is telling you before the age of 40 your a walking heart attack and then have some pretty hairy stuff occur within the span of 6 months and coming really close to checking out by 44.

You learn you have the choice to let things affect you......................or not.
Its actually really easy
:)

Stress kills. Youd be surprised what I dont blink at

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Good way to look at it JB. I'm with the OP on this though. Airports/concerts etc., those are security issues. The collective safety of many is the goal there. Basically getting the equivalent of a polite pat-down leaving a store~an entirely different matter. I don't get my hackle-up (isn't the store clerk's policy) I just don't shop there again in the future. It isn't a matter of inconvenience for me, it's the feeling that there is some assumption that I've stolen something. I resent that, plain and simple. The store won't sink or swim based on whether or not I shop there, but it seems unlikely that there are only 2-3 people who find the practice offensive. If there was great customer service/selection/pricing I could weigh that against my sensibilities and maybe see things differently...but since that ain't the case, the store is simply a sign I see on the side of the 400.

No doubt GW and I would be one of the first to suggest if it bothers you for any reason dont let it and one very perfectly acceptable way is not shop there, just keep walking, what ever works. Its not worth getting "uptight" about :)

I wonder why this thread hasnt been shut down. There was a thread a while back about someone reporting about a bad shopping experience they had at the shooters choice gun room and it got shut down very quickly. Something about not being allowed to make negative comments about businesses for fear of being sued or some nonsense. Maybe shooters choice is an OOD sponsor and sail is not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marko

Which store was that? I bought ammo at both Burlington and Etobicoke stores and never experienced that. Yes, I paid for the ammo at the customer service at the back, but they put my stuff in their plastic bags and nobody bothered me at the checkout at the front, I just walked through it.

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Are you a VIP member? I just spoke to someone I work with who goes to the Oshawa location and they know him quite well. He NEVER gets stopped when walking out the door with a RED bag. I don't think this is about shop lifting, it's more about government scrutiny and compliance above and beyond. Like any other items they sell, the electronic tags affixed to (sometimes built into the packaging) should be sufficient enough to set off the alarms at the doors. This almost seems to be an ADDITIONAL way of monitoring who's buying ammo, how much they're buying and how often. Are there cameras at the door?

I guess you people do not shop at costco, they search all the bags going out their doors. And you must be a member with a card, to get in to shop. I think most stores will be going in this direction, but you could always shop on the internet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishermccann

I guess you people do not shop at costco, they search all the bags going out their doors. And you must be a member with a card, to get in to shop. I think most stores will be going in this direction, but you could always shop on the internet.

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2 words - cheap security
Time is money and they ain't got no problem wasting yours.
I have to give Costo credit though, not too many places can weasel 60 bucks out of you a year just the to go there, aside from maybe the banks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guelph1981

I wonder why this thread hasnt been shut down. There was a thread a while back about someone reporting about a bad shopping experience they had at the shooters choice gun room and it got shut down very quickly. Something about not being allowed to make negative comments about businesses for fear of being sued or some nonsense. Maybe shooters choice is an OOD sponsor and sail is not?

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It always been this way, just get use to it... Rules don't apply for everyone the same way!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

You're getting pretty excited about defending Sail's shoddy business practices there Mike... You own shares or something?

Not sure what in this thread has been said to offend you to the point that you feel the need to start calling people with differing opinions hypocrites, but I never said I would be fine with a search at a concert. You and I must go to different kinds of shows, but I've never been searched at such an event. I guess I don't spend a lot of time in places where people try to stab eachother.

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Yea..from the tone of your responce it's clear I was right way back at post #32 (below).....some of you guys are just wound a little to tight when you let something as trivila as this ruin your day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Man some of you must live under allot of stress or have a lot of pent up anger if it's stuff like this that gets you bent out of shape....

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

The logical fallacy in your argument (if you can call it that) is called the 'Straw Man". Look it up, and you'll cross the 10,000 post mark a wiser man.

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Oh and for the record....my pointing out that having to have your bag subjected to a search to gain access is indeed the same as having a bag subjected to a search as you leave a store...so NO it's not 'logical fallacy'. It's a direct comparison.

seriously, you can't tell the difference between two logical scenarios supporting an argument, so you correct my spelling...really..with visual aids :silly: ....petty, I'm embarrassed for you.

..come back anytime..it's been a slice :)

edit add: If you do want to engage in debate, you really should learn not to let your rebuttals denigrate with personal attacks and comments...you lose all credibility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

I agree with you. I have been to Sail many times and have yet to see them anywhere near busy. I think they may have over estimated the outdoors market. Looks like this category is "over retailed" already and someone is going to go belly up. Unfortunately its likely to be the smaller shops first.

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The smaller shops will only go belly up, if people continue to shop at big box stores. IMO, the service at mom and pop places only gets better over time.

I don't see the SAILs and Bass Pros and Cabela's driving the little places out of business, except for a few mom & pop shops that are located close to the big box stores.

The fact is that the outdoor market is mostly a market for bits & pieces and consumables. Once in a while you make a big purchase like a gun; the rest of the time you're buying ammo and bootlaces and oil and so on. And I'm not driving to Niagara or Vaughan or Burlington to get those things.

Even for the big things, like a new gun, there's no reason to drive half-way across the province if the local shop has it.

I tend to hit places like Bass Pro and Cabela's when I pass through for work. And more often than not, they have nothing I want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

...places like Bass Pro and Cabela's... more often than not,... have nothing I want.

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Yup... Every time I leave either I hear myself sayin'...

"Well that was a waste of time."

I have no problems with SAIL. In fact I say - put more stores here, SAILs or whatever! Not enough products and competition.

But here is my story for SAIL haters :) - I come to Etobicoke store and ask a guy there (who I believe is a manager) - "when is your next no-tax sale?". He makes a face and replies "no tax? this praclically NEVER happens here! That sale on opening week was one-off". Ok, I say to myself. We will see. Of course in a month or so they have a no-tax event so I come to the guy and say - "so this never happens, right?!?". There was not a slight shame on his face even though he knew he is lying aS&^$le.

Since then SAIL has another two or three no-tax sales...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welsh

I don't see the SAILs and Bass Pros and Cabela's driving the little places out of business, except for a few mom & pop shops that are located close to the big box stores.

The fact is that the outdoor market is mostly a market for bits & pieces and consumables. Once in a while you make a big purchase like a gun; the rest of the time you're buying ammo and bootlaces and oil and so on. And I'm not driving to Niagara or Vaughan or Burlington to get those things.

Even for the big things, like a new gun, there's no reason to drive half-way across the province if the local shop has it.

I tend to hit places like Bass Pro and Cabela's when I pass through for work. And more often than not, they have nothing I want.

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I am jealous of you sir. There's not a lot of offerings and selection up my way. Trips to Bass Pro are a kind of fun day excursion for my son and I. Sure, did we need the 5lbs of jerky? Probably not, but the powder, wads, and shot for my habit are decently priced, and my little guy always gets to pick a fishing lure, or something small to take home.

My only gripe with Sail was having to produce my PAL twice in order to buy a box of .22 shells, once when I got them at the ammunition counter and again when paying for them.

Was in Sail today, 3 flats of 12g target loads. Give VIP#, paid and left the store. No questions, security checks or such. The guy's from the hunting section remembered me from the last time I was in and we had a coupla good chats. Once again an enjoyable shopping experience.

outback

Hey outback. How much we're they per flat?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebulldog

Hey outback. How much we're they per flat?

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Good-day Bluebulldog

Winchester Xpert and Challenger, 2 3/4- 7 & 7.5 @ $59.99 per case. 10 boxes.

outback

SAIL has earned my respect. Very good price on my favourite hiking shoe (Merrell), and a great price on my portable ice hut (20% off, with no tax). Competivitly priced ammo and miscellaneous fishing gear too. Do the sales staff sometimes lack knowledge? Of course, but at the very least theya re polite and courteous. The same cannot be said for some "ma and pa" stores around the province. In fact ive been treated no better then dirt at some of the most highly touted gun shops in ON, over nothing I did wrong. Im a firm believer that how you treat someone at a store is reflected in how they treat you, well in those cases it certainly was not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

Just a thought for the management at Sail - It might be a good idea to put your customer service at the exit instead of conducting a protracted investigation of your paying customers on the way out.

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Exactly.

Withdrawing one's patronage from a certain store hurts nobody except oneself,especially if you miss some great sales. It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. BUT,if you decide to do just that,then send a very strongly worded letter of complaint to not only local management,but,to upper management or store executive at the same time. Believe me,these things get noticed and policy is changed,quickly,if even a few letters are received. The threat of a liability lawsuit for false arrest and/or unlawful confinement strikes terror into their hearts because they see their liability insurance coverage costs skyrocket or being cancelled outright,forcing them out of business. Besides the obvious shortcomings of the skillset of store security guards,most haven't a clue about surveillance techniques and the rules of evidence governing in-store shoplifting abatement programs. Deviate one iota from any one of those rules could most certainly result in severe legal reprecussions. Police Constables called to shoplifting incidents are acutely aware of these shortcomings and usually exercise great care in complaint investigation and follow-up because the know that once they continue an investigation resulting in an arrest,their arses on now on the line,also. Believe it or not,many shoplifting subjects are released for that reason than for any other. I'm not sure why Sail stores require a separate checkout for ammo purchases. It doesn't seem to make much sense to simply drive up administration costs like that. All Canadian Tire stores always require sales staff to escort customers with expensive,easily concealed merchandise to checkouts that are kept in locked cabinets to prevent theft. That is the sole discretion of the store. Being subjected to illegal searches AFTER the purchase is certainly grounds for complaint. It's absolutely illegal where no grounds of illegal activity exists.

Just for the record, they have ZERO right to search your bag on the way out of the store. It is YOUR RIGHT to refuse such search, and any search that is insisted would be considered unlawful and a violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Many stores have been sued for this because someone sets off the detector at the door, and the employee thinks that its their duty to search through peoples stuff.

In order for them to have the right to search you, they must have seen you select an item, conceal the item (if applicable), then exit without paying...100% continuity is necessary. Whenever I am in Walmart and an item of mine sets off the detector, I let them find what item is setting it off, but I refuse to provide receipt. I shouldn't have to prove that I am not stealing...that's not how our legal system works.

Sometimes I wonder if each store doesn't have a different management that has the 'rule of the day' and no consistency. I visit the Sail in Ottawa on a regular basis and I know all the guys in the Hunting department by name. Never had an issue. I can tell you that I bought a Browning X-Bolt at Sail in November. After searching all of Canada and US there is no place you can buy an Browning and/or many other weapons cheaper than Sail. Lebaron, Bass Pro, Cabela's and Ellwood Epps are all on average $50 more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

Sometimes I wonder if each store doesn't have a different management that has the 'rule of the day' and no consistency. I visit the Sail in Ottawa on a regular basis and I know all the guys in the Hunting department by name. Never had an issue. I can tell you that I bought a Browning X-Bolt at Sail in November. After searching all of Canada and US there is no place you can buy an Browning and/or many other weapons cheaper than Sail. Lebaron, Bass Pro, Cabela's and Ellwood Epps are all on average $50 more.

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For an extra 50$, I will go somewhere else. I might go back in a year to see if I still have to wait to customer service to pay for my ammo and if it's still the same I will be done with Sail.

Went into sail today as they have 15% off hunting and fishing gear this weekend to maybe look at a new coat and pick up a few small odds and ends. Left there with two coats, more than a few odds and ends, and a new SXP that was just too good of a deal to let go. Buying a gun there is a hassle, your PAL gets scrutinised, photocopied and written down about half a dozen times, back and forth with paperwork and checkpoints, but other than that I actually left with merchandise they had in stock this time.

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Originally Posted by chris1395

Went into sail today as they have 15% off hunting and fishing gear this weekend to maybe look at a new coat and pick up a few small odds and ends. Left there with two coats, more than a few odds and ends, and a new SXP that was just too good of a deal to let go. Buying a gun there is a hassle, your PAL gets scrutinised, photocopied and written down about half a dozen times, back and forth with paperwork and checkpoints, but other than that I actually left with merchandise they had in stock this time.

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Hope you like that sxp man! :)

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Originally Posted by Sal

Hope you like that sxp man! :)

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Thanks! I picked up an SX3 a month ago and I liked it so much I had to bring home its little brother. ;)

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

Perhaps I could be accused of having rich-white-guy complex, but I don't accept that everyone shopping in a store is automatically a shoplifting suspect.

:thumbup:

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Agreed. If you have a shoplifting problem, get cameras, hire more staff, or secure your items in a better fashion.

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Originally Posted by chris1395

Thanks! I picked up an SX3 a month ago and I liked it so much I had to bring home its little brother. ;)

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No problem buddy, your going to love it.. I sold it to ya :).. Sometimes customer service is slow.. I try to have my customers out quick time tho, and its way less paper work compared to another store i know.

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Originally Posted by Sal

No problem buddy, your going to love it.. I sold it to ya :).. Sometimes customer service is slow.. I try to have my customers out quick time tho, and its way less paper work compared to another store i know.

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And might I add customer service was excellent that day;)

I can see how store policy that does not follow the law can get the store in trouble or lose customers for them. Last fall I was going to go to the trap club with my son and stopped at SAIL in Burlington to buy a flat of trap loads. When I got to the courtousy desk the young man behind the counter asks to see my PAL. So far no problem. He records it in his system. Not a book, but in some database. This raised an eyebrow but didn't want to embarrass my son and said nothing. Then he asks my for my name and address. I politely declined. He says well we cannot complete the sale then. I told him you have everything you need with my PAL number. The CFO can match it to my address if he wants but your not putting my info in that computer. I walked out without the shells and paid twice as much at the club. Later I called the CFO directly. He stated the store broke the law in requiring your personal information that wasn't already on your PAL. Both he and I contacted the store manager to educate him. Even so that was my last purchase attempt at SAIL.

As for Ellewood Epps being more expensive. Thats not true on guns. I was advised when I bought my sons 870 that they will price match any advertised price in Canada. He even looked up the Cabelas web site for me and knocked $40 off the price and gave my son a free box of trap loads. I would go back again.

I can see how the check out process may be a bit of a pain. To be honest I can't complain big fan of the place. The process is a minor inconvenience when you take the price of ammo in comparison to BP. Just as an example winchester xp2 30/06 @ BP wa selling for $ 24/box, sail was $16/box. For the price of 2 boxes @ BP you get 3 @ SAIL. Scopes tend to be anywhere from 10-20% less at SAIL.

A minor inconvenience when you looking at the savings. This might be a direct result of the theft deterrent procedures, which in turn benefits company and consumer.

Just my .02

If something like bag checks and gun-walks to the door upset you, speak directly with any of the managers at SAIL. I guarantee you'll be 90% assuaged.
The managers will agree with you that some things are a little clunky or inefficient, but take the time to explain to you why the policies are in place.

Specifically for bag checks, they're not done all the time and for every body. SAIL only does them a couple times per year, during the highest shoplifting periods. 300+ days of the year you won't receive a second glance, no matter what you look like or how many bags you're carrying.

Regarding walking a gun outside the building. This practice saves them a fortune on insurance, savings they pass onto customers. This is not a trigger locked and proven safe firearm, like those you're allowed to handle at their counter.

Think about it, store staff have no way of knowing if you've stuffed in your pocket a dozen rounds of ammo for that 12ga you just purchased. What's to stop you from loading it up right there on the spot and going on a shooting spree? At least if they escort you to the door, they've done all they really can to protect other shoppers and their staff.

Same thing if you bring a gun in for service. A manager will be called to meet you and escort you up to the gun counter. YOU might think you're the safest most respectful gun owner in the world, but nobody at SAIL knows a thing about you.
SAIL's hunting staff are given strict instructions and true stories from occurrences that took place in the Quebec stores, such as the guy who brought a loaded firearm into the store, walked all the way through the store to the hunting section and then plunked it down on the counter. When asked to prove it safe by staff, he scoffed that it was completely safe and then proceeded to accidentally blow a hole through a wall.

Idiots are everywhere and even if you aren't one, it doesn't mean a company shouldn't take reasonable precautions to protect itself and its customers.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall an incident where a man shot himself in a Canadian Tire store a very long time ago and the firearms disappeared from the shelves shortly afterwards.

I tried to Google this but came up empty. This would explain current store policies.

I for one have no problem letting them check or going to customer service, some of their ammo is so cheap I feel like I'm stealing anyway........... Start the car lol.......

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Same thing if you bring a gun in for service. A manager will be called to meet you and escort you up to the gun counter. YOU might think you're the safest most respectful gun owner in the world, but nobody at SAIL knows a thing about you.

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That was proven at Ellwood Epps' a year or two ago...

Ya sail is kind of a hassle for buying guns/ammo, I love when you buy a gun and they make you walk back and forth, definately need to change things

I went to sail to purchase a rifle and they had nothing in stock. They also didn't know when they were going to get anything in. Very frustrating!

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Originally Posted by CaseyMcIntyre

I went to sail to purchase a rifle and they had nothing in stock. They also didn't know when they were going to get anything in. Very frustrating!

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Well that's what you get when dealing with counter help at these big box stores... I mean other than their wages these people have no stake in the business... Whether you buy something or not on any particular day makes no difference in their mind. They're still gonna get paid on payday.

I keep my expectations low... Do my research well before hand and "if" the price is right I'll go and just ask for the product. I'm not interested in a their opinions on this or that gun/ammo/scope... Whatever.

These guys may be well meaning, but.. Some have very little knowledge about the products they sell other than the price.
Try asking specific questions about optics if you need a laugh.
I actualy had one of guys at Sail insist to me that I was looking through the wrong end of a scope when I was checking them out one day..

Also.. According to one Sail employee there is no difference between a scope with a one inch tube and one with a 30mm tube.
"Some manufacturers list their specs in metric... 1" and 30mm are the same"

lol

I recently ventured out to the Sail store in Etobicoke and spent an hour talking to one of their staff members about shotguns. Ive been doing my research to try and find out which 3 barrel combo to get. The guy behind the counter was patient and knew quite a bit about both the Remington and the Mossberg. I shouldered both, he showed me how to take apart and clean them both, showed me attachments and stuff. Even though I didn't buy anything at all that day, I felt like it was a worthwhile trip because I learned a lot and actually got to see how both shotguns fit me.
Now that being said, I'm still no closer to making my decision then I was before lol.

I don't understand the rules why do some places write down my pal info and some dont

Does Canadian tire still take drivers license info for BBS?

The one in town asks for my pal. The Canadian tire in Richmond hill didn't ask for anything

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Originally Posted by krypplephite

So I take all my stuff down to customer service, show my PAL (they write the number down in a logbook - not sure how I feel about that, but whatever) and I pay.

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They write down your PAL at Basspro too when buying ammo. Its not a big deal if you think of the amount of unlicensed (criminal) people that might be wanting to try to buy ammo.

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Originally Posted by YorkRegion

The one in town asks for my pal. The Canadian tire in Richmond hill didn't ask for anything

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Well then the CT in Richmond Hill isn't following the law.

It has been law in Ontario since 1994 that retail sales of ammunition are recorded. It's a provincial regulation.


http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/reg...s_940574_e.htm

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Originally Posted by mattadam

I recently ventured out to the Sail store in Etobicoke and spent an hour talking to one of their staff members about shotguns. Ive been doing my research to try and find out which 3 barrel combo to get. The guy behind the counter was patient and knew quite a bit about both the Remington and the Mossberg. I shouldered both, he showed me how to take apart and clean them both, showed me attachments and stuff. Even though I didn't buy anything at all that day, I felt like it was a worthwhile trip because I learned a lot and actually got to see how both shotguns fit me.
Now that being said, I'm still no closer to making my decision then I was before lol.

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Don't buy a Remington unless it's an old wing master. The quality control isn't what it use to be. Go for a Mossberg.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

It's a proven loss deterrent... to stop shop lifting. WalMart has been doing it for many many years.

I don't blame a store for doing it and don't mind letting them take a quick look. Don't know why peole would consider it enough of an irritant to complain about it, must be a slow day http://www.oodmag.com/community/imag...lies/smile.png

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really?! I just bought a bunch of ammo at walmart this morning and had to pay at the sport goods dept. but then continued to browse and then left the store a while longer ammo in hand and no one even looked at me...

I've been to Sail once, I personally have no reason to ever go back. I personally found the selection poor, while I was there I could not help but wonder about their business model.....seems to me they are targeting the urban outdoors person. I don't fit that category.

I found sail more of an higher end (cost wise),store for their clothjng in comparison to bp.. However. When I'm looking for something I will usually check both stores. J have found items on sale at sail.. And return to get it the next day on my commute home..

I've purchased a few things at Sail and find the check-out at the customer service is often better as there can be fewer people in line. I've never had my bag checked on the way out however. Costco is definitely a different story. I understand the whole shoplifting prevention aspect but if I've already waited 20 mins in line to pay, I refuse to wait in another line just to get out of the store. If I can walk up and have them tick off my receipt I'll stop, if there is a monstrous line, I just walk out. I've been hollered at, I just say they're welcome to walk with me and check my receipt on the way to my car.

They are just another big box store. Not very impressed either.