3 Breeds and a Hard Pressed Decision Maker

I know this post will stir up debate, I am really justhoping to hear from current or previous owners in hopes to have moreinformation other than what I have researched to assist me making my decision.

For the past month I have been researching extensively on dog breeds. I havefirst set out my criteria in terms what I am looking for and in no order ofimportance.

-Waterfowling (Early and Late Season)
-Upland Game (Flushing or Pointing)
-Trainability
-Family (Fiancee approval lol) - I need a gun dog, but have to have the ok onfinancing the animal with an approval
-Other Dog friendly

3 breeds I have in mind (in no order) and where I would think about gettingthem are:

Pudelpointer - Pineridge Pudelpointers - These dogs seemed to be very versatile,come from a great family chain at Pineridge, added bonus is that my Fiancée cantolerate the breed, w

German Shorthair Pointer - Again, seem to be a very versatile breed, TwentyValley Pointers is where I have been viewing pups and the current breeding dogsthey have. (Fiancé is not sure on the breed)

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever - Love the look of these dogs, my cousin hasone named Denver, he is a good boy. Fox Grove Kennels is where I initiallythought of but I know there are a couple others. This is my Fiancée’s #1choice, but I am interested in all three and value your input!

Please let me know what you think of the breeds I have in mind and also thebreeders. Runners up to these breeds would be a Golden Lab or a ChocolateChessie, these are ones I know my Fiancée would 'Ok', but are not on the top ofmy list.

Thanks!

W
PS, this is not a debate on whether or not my Fiancee has me by the nuts either haha she is a great girl and encourages me to get out in the woods at every opportunity, I allow her to have input as it is a financial commitment our household will be making and she should be involved in the decision making process.

FYI ...

Chesapeake Bay Retrievers come in three colours - brown, sedge or dead grass. As to a Golden Lab ... There is no such breed. If you are thinking Labrador Retriever (short coat) there are three colours - black, yellow and chocolate or you may be thinking of the Golden Retriever (long coat).

Whatever breed you should decide on, make sure the breeder is doing all the health clearances which are appropriate for the breed you choose!

LOL

Waterfowling? Get a lab. or PP or GWP

Having a breeder trainer to help you out , like Pineridge is a significant part of the equation.

Costs : The price of a good dog is not the end of expenses. Food and vet can total a couple thousand a year even with no major trauma. You may not want to tell your significant other that. :)

Interesting.....you've done extensive research yet you refer to 'golden labs' and 'chocolate chessies'!

Neither exist as Dakota Creek has pointed out.

The 3 breeds you are interested may well do the job for you depending on the breeding.........just as long as you leave out the late season gunning....pretty tough on those dogs for sure.

By the way late season gunning can be tough on any dog.

Get a lab.

You need to rate your priorities in terms of what you hunt. I agree with Sharon, if you do a fair bit of duck hunting a Lab would be my choice and they can flush upland birds too. Have you ever heard of a small munsterlander? Might also be a good choice if you lean to upland more.

You need to do more research on each of the breeds you have chosen. Other considerations besides the initial outlay for the pup and the maintainence costs are how much time and effort are you willing to put into training this dog. I have seen many young people come and go because they just did not understand the commitment it takes to train a good hunting companion. They didn't research the energy level of the breed they chose. They didn't consider their living accomodations. They didn't factor in what happens during the day when they were at work. What about planning a wedding in the near future? Puppies are kind of like having kids they need constant care and attention. You really have to consider all aspects of your life and the other commitments you have before settling on a pup. Sorry if I sound cranky but between winter and a root canal I am a little over the top. Good luck with your search and do take time before you make your decision.

The labs I had mentioned were just off the top of my head, my research on gun dogs thus far has been mainly on the three I highlighted. Sorry for not being technical, I'll be sure to do so an not upset the lab enthusiasts that are present in the forum.

As a young boy I helped train two boarder collies hearding 50+ sheep on a daily basis. The past 10 years I have been looking after three daschunds and a lab/Shepard mix, my aunt and dad did not want to split them all up so I left them all at there place when I moved out recently. I have one daschund trained to dive 12ft at the lake and fetch exact rocks I throw. The eldest flushes fairly good but is no retriever. The lab/Shepard is old, she can't do much anymore.

I am aware of what a dog entails, cost, time and that it is a commitment, so let's steer away from that topic. I was asking about the breeds, I didn't come on here to get posts on my time and my finances haha thanks for the comments though.
If you wish to continue posting let's stick to reviews on these three breeds or mentions of others that may intrigue interest.

Thanks,

W

Of the three you mentioned a pudelpointer sounds like a good fit. ie you have a dog that will do everything on your list your wife is okay with the breed and the breeder you mentioned is less than an hour away and has training and hunting facilities that could be a big help later on in training. I have a pup from Pineridge and I would get one from them again. Tons of drive and handles the cold well. Have you decided how big of a dog you want? My pup is 61 lbs at a 1yr 3 mo
I have seen some nice shorthairs and my cousin has a NSDTR nice dog isn't used for hunting so I can't comment on it's retrieve or drive.

first thing you said you wanted was a waterfowl dog... early and late season... I always liked the little nova scotia dogs,.. they would be a nice size for in the house... but how happy would your girl be with a long haired, mud packed, swamp smelling thing after a hunt? .. lol.. they are all good choices.... but if your a die hard duck hunter, and hunting in the cold.. it'd would be a lab or chesse for me... wives and girlfriends soon learn to love or put up with whatever we seem to bring home, so get what you'll use the most... lol

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Originally Posted by Wesman41

PS, this is not a debate on whether or not my Fiancee has me by the nuts either ...

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Well, that kind of remark shouldn't even come up.

In any case, I would suggest you strike the toller off your list simply because a good hunting toller will be harder to find.

Re the remarks re late-season waterfowling that some have made above, this is an important consideration. If waterfowling is high up on your list of priorities then I suggest you seriously consider a Lab, regardless of the choices you've already made. If upland is more important to you then either of those breeds looks like a good choice to me.

I don't think PP is well suited to late season wf in ON, neither is GSP. Tollers are somwhat nuts from what I've seen, so I'd keep looking :)

Get a lab. They can handle the water all season long and can be trained to flush as well.

Ever see a lab in the city walking a blind person?... Lol... My buddies lab taught him how to hunt!... Lol .. Smartest dogs and never complain about anything... GET THE LAB... The do it all dog!

As a lab was not among your first 3 choices I would recommend you get a pudelpointer. Your other half can tolerate the breed and that is important. Tollers are game little dogs and the kennel you mentioned produces some good ones. GSP are high energy and may be what you are looking for. The bottom line is that the choice has to be yours. None of us know you so really can't comment on the type of dog to get with any authority. We all are biased to our own breed because we know how they will fit into our hunting choices. I would suggest you talk to the breeders find out what litters they are expecting, go see the sire and dam if possible and keep researching the breeds of choice. It is too bad that there are no trails at this time of you for to go and see some of these breeds work.

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Originally Posted by 4weight

Get a lab. They can handle the water all season long and can be trained to flush as well.

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And point also!!!

Also suggest you consider a lab make great hunting companions and great family pets and besides a chessie I don't think the others you mentioned should be doing much late season waterfowling

A springer hands down because they are compact and versatile but not for late season duck hunting. I have a yellow lab that i hunt grouse, pheasant, rabbit and duck that I trained myself. #1 choice is springer #2 lab and #3 pudelpointer

Good luck

Honestly I think what you are looking for is a lab.

Wesman check out Buucleuch Pepper on YouTube and see an honest dog work.

Some great responses here! I appreciate all the input!

I do however understand that it is hard for one to say because they do not know me personally, I am not asking for anyone to pick for me. I was just out for OPINIONS from all who have experience with these breeds and any who have other suggestions.

Like I said, been around dogs all my life, just only started hunting recently and would love to share my time in the bush and on the lake or marsh with a dog. To be honest if I could find a breed with the heart of a daschund, that would be ideal haha unfortunately those little buggers aren't as versatile.

If anyone else has opinions, continue the conversation, but I will continue my search and value all of your opinions!

Thanks,

W

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Originally Posted by welsh

...I would suggest you strike the toller off your list simply because a good hunting toller will be harder to f̶i̶n̶d̶ finance.

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Fixed it for you, Welsh.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../IMG_6681b.jpg

For a dogless couple, if you can finance it, a working toller from Foxgrove would be terrific. That's who many of Sue Kish's pups go to.

Otherwise, heed the advice of the more knowledgeable who've advised getting a Lab. Because it sounds as if you've not trained a gundog before - and if waterfowling's important to you, starting out as a trainer with a breed that begs for serious training in that department (GSP, PP, tollers too) is an uphill battle.

MG

I have a Weimaraner and know a number of Weim and GSP owners (and the dogs too). They're fantastic dogs, great hunters and family dogs but they're also very strong-willed and a challenge to train. More so however if you're looking for an early or late-season waterfowl dog, choose a medium or long-haired breed. In my experience, love of cold water and these breeds is hit and miss. While I know a couple that will charge into an icy stream to fetch a stick, I practically have to kick mine in the just to get him outside to relieve himself on a cold day.

Having been in a similar situation I choose GSP. If your hunting waterfowl late season I'd choose the PP.
sounds like your doing all the right homework. I more or less rushed into purchasing our first GSP and it turned out to be a nightmare. Even though she was trained by the book , she just didn't have it based on 3 professional opinions. Health wise she was a mess also.
DEVASTATED our family. Pup was not purchased from a backyard breeder either. Last draw was when she unprovoked snapping at my son.
She went back to the breeder, we were offered another puppy but obviously declined.
This experience was a real lesson, and after countless hours of searching we found our current GSP, absolute night and day from the first one, both in train ability and genetics. What ever pup you choose, make sure the breeder provides references and have a good hard look at the kennel. Thats what should of tipped me off.
Wouldn't worry about this being your first time training a hunting dog, everyone had a first. Enjoy the experience and challenges.
Seek the professionals for training advice when you need it, but most importantly raise the dog to your expectations and standards. Very easy to be drawn into someone else's (unless competing the dog)
Good luck with the search.
R

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Originally Posted by crackerd

Fixed it for you, Welsh.

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LOL. That too!

My current dog is a GSP and I could not be happier at home and in the field. That being said, my primary type of hunting is upland birds, with very little waterfowl hunting. I had an Engilsh Setter and two English pointers in the past, so this is my fourth dog. In terms of trainability, my current GSP has been the easiest to train in the field (just my personal experience), and very well behaved in the house. As stated by others, I would also have to stress, (even more important than the actual breed), is that you get a dog from a very good breeding, (ask for the dam and sire's pedigree and look at the papers), it just increases your chances of having a good gun dog. If you do decide on a GSP and want to know of a good breeder PM me.

Thanks

Lorenzo

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Originally Posted by Lor79

My current dog is a GSP and I could not be happier at home and in the field. That being said, my primary type of hunting is upland birds, with very little waterfowl hunting. I had an Engilsh Setter and two English pointers in the past, so this is my fourth dog. In terms of trainability, my current GSP has been the easiest to train in the field (just my personal experience), and very well behaved in the house. As stated by others, I would also have to stress, (even more important than the actual breed), is that you get a dog from a very good breeding, (ask for the dam and sire's pedigree and look at the papers), it just increases your chances of having a good gun dog. If you do decide on a GSP and want to know of a good breeder PM me.

Thanks

Lorenzo

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I can vouch for his pup's capabilities. I have seen her work, excellent dog.

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Originally Posted by terrym

I can vouch for his pup's capabilities. I have seen her work, excellent dog.

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Thanks Terry :)

A lab is generally more durable/hardier than most of the other upland breeds. They have a strong desire to please, work best with hand signals and a nose second to none. If you have a bird drift out a long ways, you'll be hard pressed to find a dog better on a blind then a well trained lab. I'm fortunate that mine is just as driven when hunting grouse and woodcock as she is hunting ducks. Plus they can still be hunted in late November and December as they are willing to make retrieves in cooler water.Attachment 24213

Good luck with your search

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Originally Posted by stilchen67

A lab is generally more durable/hardier than most of the other upland breeds. They have a strong desire to please, work best with hand signals and a nose second to none. If you have a bird drift out a long ways, you'll be hard pressed to find a dog better on a blind then a well trained lab. I'm fortunate that mine is just as driven when hunting grouse and woodcock as she is hunting ducks. Plus they can still be hunted in late November and December as they are willing to make retrieves in cooler water.Attachment 24213

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I would have to say a Chessie then a Lab. Provided they have a thick outdoor coat for the extreme weather conditions(kennel dog).

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

I would have to say a Chessie then a Lab. Provided they have a thick outdoor coat for the extreme weather conditions(kennel dog).

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Agreed, but a Cheesie can be somewhat hard headed every now and then, a nice little lab might be easier for someone with less experience training a bird dog for the first time.

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Originally Posted by stilchen67

Agreed, but a Cheesie can be somewhat hard headed every now and then, a nice little lab might be easier for someone with less experience training a bird dog for the first time.

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I have hunted with a really nice well behaved Chessie out of good breeding. My point is an extreme weather duck dog should also have the coat to go with it not just the water vest. Since my labs have always been house pets i would not risk putting them in an extreme weather duck hunt unless they had an outside dog coat.

Well I guess I will pipe in here for Goldens. Yes their hair is a little longer, but not much if you are getting a working dog. Working goldens hair will be 2-4" compared to short hair breeds of 1-2". it doesn't make much difference when you are vacuuming. Goldens also have an excellent nose which comes from the blood hound that went into the making of the breed. I can't speak for anyone else's goldens but cold weather and cold water have no effect on them. I have seen mine in swimming in Dec or Feb and in the spring before all the ice is gone. Goldens are great family dogs as well.
deb

I have had 2 goldens and yes they are a fantastic family pet and have fond memories of my children climbing all over them. I DO NOT MISS ALL THE DOG HAIR !!! Never again .

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Originally Posted by stilchen67

Agreed, but a Cheesie can be somewhat hard headed every now and then, a nice little lab might be easier for someone with less experience training a bird dog for the first time.

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Who doesn't like a challenge??? I have a Britt no papers, got lucky...he's VERY smart(hard headed). Can't use for late waterfowl tho. I would go with the PP. Good luck

If my grandfather read this, he'd smack me and tell me a golden retriever lol it's all he had and hunted with from what my dad tells me (passed in '67) my uncle owns three and are not gun dogs but he has them trained to the nine. They'll go to the fridge and get him a beer for a scratch on the ribs!

This is great information, for me, time is not an issue spending it with the dog. I live 10 minutes from work and come home for lunch, I live near the Seaton trail and am out walking and fishing on a daily/weekly basis. I'm a member of the OFAH and the Ganaraska, I'm in the forest almost every weekend. Finances are there, it's just ensuring that my fiancée is pleased, but I agree what had been mentioned, whatever is brought home will eventually be loved as a family member no matter what.

I must say, the thought of a lab has began to intrigue me and will still do more research on that. I think my next step is to visit the breeders, even bring my fiancée along so it's not just a report she is getting.

Again, I appreciate all the input, it helps! If anyone knows of good trainers for gun dogs, let me know as this is something I have also included in my finances and feel it is important!

Thanks,

W

You could also visit some of the retriever clubs training/picnic days and see most of the breeds first hand.
deb

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Originally Posted by Longgun

You could also visit some of the retriever clubs training/picnic days and see most of the breeds first hand.
deb

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Good suggestion Deb!

In fact plan to attend a licensed field trial here in Ontario and see for yourself. I can tell you if there were 60 dogs entered, there would hardly be a chessie there....likely none. There might be a golden or two or three there and the rest will be labs. The labs will consist of mostly black followed by yellows and almost no chocolates. Tollers....you can forget seeing them...they are so few and far between.

Remember to keep in mind just because very few of the other working breeds may not be represented in large numbers at a licensed field trial doesn't make them any less capable. It has to fit your criteria and family life style.

I think you're on a slippery slope with that comment. If they were able and capable, then there is a likelihood that we would see an increase in numbers representative of their breed. I would not expect those numbers to be on par with Labradors but perhaps a few more.
We have some very nice goldens that you will see butI do not know of a FC Chessie in Canada and know for sure there is not a FC Ducktoller in Canada. One could always hope that we would see more of these just to broaden the competition and broaden the general level of retrievers.

It just means some of these less popular breed owners choose not to do what you do. They may be pets and weekend warrior hunters who have no desire to do what you do. I see many people to be followers of a certain breed because a hunter friend or family member has that particular breed. Look at the field Springer Spaniel breed and how few field Springers are out hunting and competing in Ontario. They are an awesome breed but many that Springville Springers produce go to family pet homes with some as hunting companions. Because very few are competing in Ontario at a high level doesn't mean they are less capable than a Lab its because people have them as family pets.. Not everyone that has a Toller, Chessie or Springer feels the need to compete at a licensed field trial event or have something to prove or promote. Hopefully more people will take up hunting and get involved with these less popular hunting breeds to remove the stigma or ignorance associated with them. Slippery slope I think not.

"Hopefully more people will take up hunting and get involved with these less popular hunting breeds to remove the stigma or ignorance associated with them. Slippery slope I think not."

As always you are welcome to your view even though you have had no experience to this point in field trials as a competitor or watcher. It is more than removing the stigma or ignorance it's about getting a good candidate to train and develop and then check your progress with others who love retrievers .

I would love to see some more chessies, tollers and goldens competing....that's certainly positive for their breed and when and if they distinguish themselves then that becomes a matter of fact and record, not just some old wife's tale about how good their parents were. Stepping up to the plate can be very demanding.....

The slope is slippery as many will find the challenge too hard to accept and climb, much easier to avoid all that stuff.

Well said.:-)

Well, I can clear this up by letting you all know, unless the dog shows extreme promise of being a testing dog, the dog I purchase will be working/family dog. I want to have the dog I choose trained ofcourse, but trained to hunt, not compete. Just clarifying for everyone :) but I do understand the way the conversation had gone and how some breeds are not represented in competitions, I am just looking for that breed tht is well versed out in the bush or on te pond and will be good around the house. I chose the breeds I did cause I though they were very versatile upon my research on the hunt not in regards to trials and competition results.

Happy to see this forum creating conversation though, that's a positive and so has the feedback aside from the initial responses :)

And you as well Krakadawn have not the same experience i have had over the years with other working breeds. I am fully aware of my lack of experience in a field trial setting but have other valuable experiences to draw from. And I will be at a future field trial as a bystander and more than likely to compete in the near future. As always I enjoy your view or opinions even if i don't agree with them and look forward to meeting you in the near future. Its important that new forum members feel welcome especially on topics such as this when they are researching less popular breeds than the one you have or others.

No problem Yellow Dog and to be honest there will be always be a helping hand extended if you so desire...especially with training etc.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Wesman41

Well, I can clear this up by letting you all know, unless the dog shows extreme promise of being a testing dog, the dog I purchase will be working/family dog. I want to have the dog I choose trained ofcourse, but trained to hunt, not compete. Just clarifying for everyone :) but I do understand the way the conversation had gone and how some breeds are not represented in competitions, I am just looking for that breed tht is well versed out in the bush or on te pond and will be good around the house. I chose the breeds I did cause I though they were very versatile upon my research on the hunt not in regards to trials and competition results.

Happy to see this forum creating conversation though, that's a positive and so has the feedback aside from the initial responses :)

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I started out 30 years ago with the same desires and have had a chessie, GSP and Lab. All great family dogs and personal hunting companions. Each very different with pros and cons. Trained them myself, not perfect but always did the job. Never have attended a field trial or test, just not my thing. Do your research, go see the dogs and talk to the breeders, take your time and get the dog that you think best suits your needs..., then enjoy
Do your research

Thank you I appreciate that very much krakadawn.

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Originally Posted by Wesman41

Well, I can clear this up by letting you all know, unless the dog shows extreme promise of being a testing dog, the dog I purchase will be working/family dog. I want to have the dog I choose trained ofcourse, but trained to hunt, not compete. Just clarifying for everyone :) but I do understand the way the conversation had gone and how some breeds are not represented in competitions, I am just looking for that breed tht is well versed out in the bush or on te pond and will be good around the house. I chose the breeds I did cause I though they were very versatile upon my research on the hunt not in regards to trials and competition results.

Happy to see this forum creating conversation though, that's a positive and so has the feedback aside from the initial responses :)

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Never say never. The thing about trials and hunt tests is that they are great for off season training. Something which you will likely want to do anyway. Might as well take advantage of great training grounds and expert advice that these events provide. I didn't buy my dog to compete with but the few events we have done have been worth the time and money. These events are full of experienced handlers and they aren't there to talk about hockey.

I am glad you continue to do your home work. You have picked two very good breeder Sue Kish for tollers and The Pine Ridge Kennel for pudel pointers. Both Joe and Sue are extremely knowledgeable about their breeds and should be able to give you the information you desire on these breeds. The only GSP breeder I have known is now retired but I am sure that you will find a good one. As for labradors you will have a big job sorting out exactly what you are looking for. As the other thread has stated they come in all shapes and sizes just be very specific in what you are looking for and if possible ask to see the sire and dam.
Also getting a registered dog can give other opportunities for your finance to get involved. I know you are looking for this to be a hunting dog but the breeds you have mentioned are also great for performance events that keep them fit during the off season.

I would lean more toward a PP of the three choices you have narrowed it down to. A nice sized dog, a thicker coat than the GSP.

A german wire-haired pointer(DD), and a wirehaired pointing griffon , I would personally also consider if I wanted a pointing breed that I could use for late season waterfowl hunting.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

I would lean more toward a PP of the three choices you have narrowed it down to. A nice sized dog, a thicker coat than the GSP.

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Good choice.

I did not read through all of the posts, so I apologize if it is already suggested or if those are your only 3 breeds you will entertain. Otherwise I would suggest a Drathaar. It meets all of your requirements and are bred for non-aggression toward people and other dogs. We just got one and I am not saying that it is superior to other breeds, but you wanted feedback from owners. Also, if you wanted to meet ours, I would be happy to do so. She sheds moderately, has incredible drive, fetches waterfowl in the coldest weather and is also good on some bonus animals like rabbits etc. So just another 2 cents. Good luck.

Lol. Ya Kenny I would suggest a DD as well, but it wasnt on his list. When I was doing my search, I wanted a do everything cold water, small game hunting buddy. I searched munsterlanders, Deutsch Drahthaars, Pudle Pointers, wirehaired Griffons, I even did a week looking at labs. I am now priveledged to spend my hunting time with a DD,
The choice is going to be hard, there are some amazing people out there breeding awesome dogs.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

Lol. Ya Kenny I would suggest a DD as well, but it wasnt on his list. When I was doing my search, I wanted a do everything cold water, small game hunting buddy. I searched munsterlanders, Deutsch Drahthaars, Pudle Pointers, wirehaired Griffons, I even did a week looking at labs. I am now priveledged to spend my hunting time with a DD,
The choice is going to be hard, there are some amazing people out there breeding awesome dogs.

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It's amazing to see what breeds are up an coming and new kennels being established with these dogs. I never considered the DD when I was researching a versatile breed mainly because i was looking for a small dog. Hopefully some young people get involved with these breeds and start competing at field trials. I would love to see these animals work at a high level.

Of the 3 breeds you selected the GSP is likely the best. PP do carry wire coats but they are also inconsistent within litters.
Some have denser coats and others are almost open.
A GSP does not carry a heavy coat but they are tight and can be wiped dry while the softer undercoats on PP and NSDTR will hold water.
In the end none of the 3 are ideal for your stated purpose.
You also need to expand your search breeder wise, no knock on any breeder listed but once you decide on a breed look around and see what's available, they are not all created equal.

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

Of the 3 breeds you selected the GSP is likely the best. PP do carry wire coats but they are also inconsistent within litters.
Some have denser coats and others are almost open.
A GSP does not carry a heavy coat but they are tight and can be wiped dry while the softer undercoats on PP and NSDTR will hold water.
In the end none of the 3 are ideal for your stated purpose.
You also need to expand your search breeder wise, no knock on any breeder listed but once you decide on a breed look around and see what's available, they are not all created equal.

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Many other working breeds have a tight coat doesn't mean they are the right animal for extreme conditions like the GSP you recommended.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

It's amazing to see what breeds are up an coming and new kennels being established with these dogs. I never considered the DD when I was researching a versatile breed mainly because i was looking for a small dog. Hopefully some young people get involved with these breeds and start competing at field trials. I would love to see these animals work at a high level.

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Mine does work at a high level. Any flaws he shows are my fault, but i am networking and learning. Most of the breeds are better off being less popular. I found a woman who puts spinone italianos in beauty contests!!! There goes another good breed lost to the beauty contests.
I would say having a more diverse range at field trials is a positive, and that may be what you were trying to say :)

I said of those 3 the GSP was best suited, however I also said none of them were really suited for what he wants.
A tight smooth coat is not right for extreme conditions.[
I hunt my dogs on waterfowl in Saskatchewan in September and October but they are not the best dog for the purpose, nor would I or do I recommend anyone get a European dog for primarily watrerfowling
QUOTE=yellow dog;747449]Many other working breeds have a tight coat doesn't mean they are the right animal for extreme conditions like the GSP you recommended.[/QUOTE]

Okee dokee

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

Mine does work at a high level. Any flaws he shows are my fault, but i am networking and learning. Most of the breeds are better off being less popular. I found a woman who puts spinone italianos in beauty contests!!! There goes another good breed lost to the beauty contests.
I would say having a more diverse range at field trials is a positive, and that may be what you were trying to say :)

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Not all :)

Spinone Illinois

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6961b54d.jpg

Wesman- I was in the same situation as you. I wanted a waterfowl dog that I could also use for upland/small game, but more importantly I didn't want a lab. I am a pretty calm and quite individual but I am easily aggregated and patients is always something I have had to work hard on. I knew that I didn't want to deal with the youthful enthusiasm that comes with lab, same reason I ruled out GSPs, I wanted a gun dog that would mature quickly.

My first choice was a German bred wirehair (DD) but I was dissuaded away from the breed for various reasons, none of which have turned out to be true in hindsight, but that is another topic all together.

I settled on the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. They have a strong natural retrieving instinct, a well bred WPG has a double coat - decent enough for waterfowling late into the season, they excel on small game and are a methodical, good all-around pointer for the hunter on foot. And...for your family life, they have an on-off switch, in the house they are nearly ghosts, more often then not they prefer to be in a room where no one else is, just laying down quietly.....oh and they don't shed.

Negatives;

They bring into the house a lot of debris and sand in their coat...its fifty-fifty, do you want dog hair or debris lol.
They can be difficult to train to an advanced level as they get bored quickly of repetitious training.
They dribble water everywhere after they take a drink
Depending on the year, waterfowling over water and without dry land to run around on, may be out of the question come December.
They are the slowest hunters of the pointing breeds, definitely not a breed suited for chasing Huns out west.

Person preference aside, when you say late season waterfowling, how late do you mean? Very few waterfowlers in Ontario take advantage of the full season. So if you only make it out for one or two hunts past the mid point of December, is that really worth making that criteria the deciding factor in your dog purchase.....that of course will be in your family life for the next 10+ years.

I run a PP, and am very happy with his hunting ability, he hunts waterfowl primarily with upland, bunnies, deer and blood tracking thrown in. All I will say is if you decide to go with a PP, there are a good selection of breeders if you are willing to go for a drive or have the pup flown to you. Don't select a breeder based on geography alone, it's a dog you are going to have 12-15 years.

'I don't think PP is well suited to late season wf in ON, neither is GSP. Tollers are somwhat nuts from what I've seen, so I'd keep looking'

I'm getting a pup from Cedarwoods. Here's some of their's waterfowling. Don't need a hard core retriever, so 70% upland work and 30% retriever works for me. Looks like they can take some cold.




D.

You'll find PP to be as hardcore a retriever as VDogs get

Going back to the original Question: Which of these 3 breeds should I pick.
Obvious answer is the one your wife likes.
That way it will be our dog and not your dog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.

'I don't think PP is well suited to late season wf in ON, neither is GSP. Tollers are somwhat nuts from what I've seen, so I'd keep looking'

I'm getting a pup from Cedarwoods. Here's some of their's waterfowling. Don't need a hard core retriever, so 70% upland work and 30% retriever works for me. Looks like they can take some cold.


Attachment 24354
Attachment 24355
Attachment 24356

D.

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I love that first picture- beauty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesman41

I know this post will stir up debate, I am really justhoping to hear from current or previous owners in hopes to have moreinformation other than what I have researched to assist me making my decision.

For the past month I have been researching extensively on dog breeds. I havefirst set out my criteria in terms what I am looking for and in no order ofimportance.

-Waterfowling (Early and Late Season)
-Upland Game (Flushing or Pointing)
-Trainability
-Family (Fiancee approval lol) - I need a gun dog, but have to have the ok onfinancing the animal with an approval
-Other Dog friendly

3 breeds I have in mind (in no order) and where I would think about gettingthem are:

Pudelpointer - Pineridge Pudelpointers - These dogs seemed to be very versatile,come from a great family chain at Pineridge, added bonus is that my Fiancée cantolerate the breed, w

German Shorthair Pointer - Again, seem to be a very versatile breed, TwentyValley Pointers is where I have been viewing pups and the current breeding dogsthey have. (Fiancé is not sure on the breed)

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever - Love the look of these dogs, my cousin hasone named Denver, he is a good boy. Fox Grove Kennels is where I initiallythought of but I know there are a couple others. This is my Fiancée’s #1choice, but I am interested in all three and value your input!

Please let me know what you think of the breeds I have in mind and also thebreeders. Runners up to these breeds would be a Golden Lab or a ChocolateChessie, these are ones I know my Fiancée would 'Ok', but are not on the top ofmy list.

Thanks!

W
PS, this is not a debate on whether or not my Fiancee has me by the nuts either haha she is a great girl and encourages me to get out in the woods at every opportunity, I allow her to have input as it is a financial commitment our household will be making and she should be involved in the decision making process.

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You're the hunter. You should get what will meet your needs . jmo No one can make this decision for you. Peruse the threads, research and let us know what you decide. :)

With your criteria, a versitile dog is the tool you need, so of your three choices, the PP would fit the bill the closest. Check out the Cedarwoods PP website.

I spent the last year deciding my next dog also.


D.

Also, PP's shed very little, or not at all, and are hypoalergetic(?) I currently own a standard poodle that has been a very smart, great dog, with a great personality, another reason I went with a PP.

D.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharon

You're the hunter. You should get what will meet your needs . jmo No one can make this decision for you. Peruse the threads, research and let us know what you decide. :)

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Sharon,

I never once asked anyone to make the decision for me, nor would I intend of that by posting on here. I was simply looking for opinions and guidance. I believe I have achieved that by the amount of responses and pm's I have received. Thank you though and thank you to those of you who have provided great feedback on the different breeds I have in mind as well as the ones I had not considered.

W

Well said Wesman and good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesman41

Sharon,

I never once asked anyone to make the decision for me, nor would I intend of that by posting on here. I was simply looking for opinions and guidance. I believe I have achieved that by the amount of responses and pm's I have received. Thank you though and thank you to those of you who have provided great feedback on the different breeds I have in mind as well as the ones I had not considered.

W

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I never once asked anyone to make the decision for me, nor would I intend of that by posting on here. I was simply looking for opinions and guidance. I believe I have achieved that by the amount of responses and pm's I have received. Thank you though and thank you to those of you who have provided great feedback on the different breeds I have in mind as well as the ones I had not considered.

Sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to sound so curt. :(
W[/QUOTE]

Excellent article in OOD mag on this subject:

http://www.oodmag.com/hunting/dogs/range-rover/

That's no problem Sharon, I was only clearing it up! I would hate to steer people away from responding to the OP as I will more than likely be getting a dog next fall or spring, I encourage members to keep this thread alive as it is all great information, your input included.

I will be sure to let everyone know what breed and breeder I decide on as it is an exciting experience!

W

I have had labs, and would reccomend a lab.

I would equally recomend you research the bloodline and pay for the right dog, you could get lucky buying from a back yard breeder but it is a long term investment and in my experience will worth the extra cost to buy the bloodline you want from a reputable breeder.

In my research (I am no expert here) labs come in two types: American and English, and also come with three main groups of bloodlines: 1. Field/work dogs with lots of energy and drive, 2. obedience dogs with high trainability and low exercise requirements, and 3. house pets as a default. Look at the specific testing the parents have passed, ie Obedience test (OB), Field trials (FC), Tracking tests (TD or VST). If you want to do some more research look at the AKC website where you can also see what types of dogs are most passing the test you choose appropriate, on this note that the tracking dogs high on the list are german sheppards due to their use as police dogs which does not fairly reflect the ability of other breeds such as labs, there are simply more of them doing the TD testing which skews the results.

Here is the AKC website, no disprespect to the CKC folks, its just there are more dogs being tested to base the decision on:

http://classic.akc.org/events/field_..._champions.cfm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marker

I have had labs, and would reccomend a lab.

I would equally recomend you research the bloodline and pay for the right dog, you could get lucky buying from a back yard breeder but it is a long term investment and in my experience will worth the extra cost to buy the bloodline you want from a reputable breeder.

In my research (I am no expert here) labs come in two types: American and English, and also come with three main groups of bloodlines: 1. Field/work dogs with lots of energy and drive, 2. obedience dogs with high trainability and low exercise requirements, and 3. house pets as a default. Look at the specific testing the parents have passed, ie Obedience test (OB), Field trials (FC), Tracking tests (TD or VST). If you want to do some more research look at the AKC website where you can also see what types of dogs are most passing the test you choose appropriate, on this note that the tracking dogs high on the list are german sheppards due to their use as police dogs which does not fairly reflect the ability of other breeds such as labs, there are simply more of them doing the TD testing which skews the results.

Here is the AKC website, no disprespect to the CKC folks, its just there are more dogs being tested to base the decision on:

http://classic.akc.org/events/field_..._champions.cfm

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Two types Canadian(St. John's) and English , later American pointing lab.

My wife was skeptical about having a dog. After having my 6mths old Pudelpointer she is totally in love with him. Me on the other hand, can't wait to start the training at PineRidge in April. As for genetics, Maxi was pointing at 3mths, we have long two hour walks every evening, even at -29, and he was really having a good time, loves water, doesn't shed. We just love him. I have in my family a vizsla and gsp, and pp is just as good as any of the two. This is Canada, so you will hear a lot about Labs, and for a good reason. It's really up to you and your loved one.

Wesman41, I think you should get an English setter, because that's what I own and therefore it's better than the other dogs suggested. :)
If I was to align myself with the your opening question, as much as you did say you were open to any "other" recommendations, I believe there is one dog that would best suit your needs, and only one, but only in my opinion. That dog is the Lab....period. There are a lot of wonderful dogs out there but that aside, from what you opened this thread with, I think it's a no-brainer. There are many advantages and one very salient one and that is, there are some VERY knowledgeable folk on this forum that would love nothing more than to help you select from the best available working Lab breeding. Therefore, it follows that they would also have a vested interest in seeing your goals for this dog come to fruition.
Back to the question:
- with proper training, the PP would address 80% of your aspirations and I'm not getting into a proper coated PP versus a marginal coated PP, etc. etc. It is meant to point upland birds so, there is an additional cost of time and money there-in.
- anyone recommending late season waterfowling with a GSP is not being fair to this breed or to the OP. You could use a GSP for late season waterfowling with a number of stipulations such as a heated blind, a high quality neoprene vest, short retrieves, lots of dry towels, not too late season, etc. etc. In-other-words.....it's out.
- I love the NSDTs but in my limited experience getting one from good working stock will need to be your focus. Furthermore, it might compromise what I stated above about there being expert people close by to help you that have specific field experience with this breed.
Most any of the wire-haired breeds can suffer late season waterfowling but not all love it unless they have support systems in place. They are intended to be pointers rather than flushers. As I mentioned, the investment in training a pointer brings with it yet an additional cost of time and money.
That is why I believe that with the right research, support, training, and subsequent field opportunities to hone those skills, the Lab will offer you the best chances to get everything you requested. And yes, they make awesome upland hunters as well!
It is your responsibility to train whatever dog/breed you acquire to be a well-behaved companion in the home. More-often-than-not, unruly dogs in the home are a reflection of their training or lack there-of. Lest we forget, ALL field dogs are meant to make wonderful companions in the home.

To the OP: do a YouTube search for 'self training the hunting retriever.'

You're welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesman41

I know this post will stir up debate, I am really justhoping to hear from current or previous owners in hopes to have moreinformation other than what I have researched to assist me making my decision.

For the past month I have been researching extensively on dog breeds. I havefirst set out my criteria in terms what I am looking for and in no order ofimportance.

-Waterfowling (Early and Late Season)
-Upland Game (Flushing or Pointing)
-Trainability
-Family (Fiancee approval lol) - I need a gun dog, but have to have the ok onfinancing the animal with an approval
-Other Dog friendly

3 breeds I have in mind (in no order) and where I would think about gettingthem are:

Pudelpointer - Pineridge Pudelpointers - These dogs seemed to be very versatile,come from a great family chain at Pineridge, added bonus is that my Fiancée cantolerate the breed, w

German Shorthair Pointer - Again, seem to be a very versatile breed, TwentyValley Pointers is where I have been viewing pups and the current breeding dogsthey have. (Fiancé is not sure on the breed)

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever - Love the look of these dogs, my cousin hasone named Denver, he is a good boy. Fox Grove Kennels is where I initiallythought of but I know there are a couple others. This is my Fiancée’s #1choice, but I am interested in all three and value your input!

Please let me know what you think of the breeds I have in mind and also thebreeders. Runners up to these breeds would be a Golden Lab or a ChocolateChessie, these are ones I know my Fiancée would 'Ok', but are not on the top ofmy list.

Thanks!

W
PS, this is not a debate on whether or not my Fiancee has me by the nuts either haha she is a great girl and encourages me to get out in the woods at every opportunity, I allow her to have input as it is a financial commitment our household will be making and she should be involved in the decision making process.

---

Are we fishing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sambo

Are we fishing

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Question? Statement? not sure I follow sambo what you are getting at.

Thanks Wayne, I have watched all of those videos now over the past month, they are definitely handy and I will be referring back to them in the near future.

Great insight Ugo, thank you for the post!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wesman41

Question? Statement? not sure I follow sambo what you are getting at.

Thanks Wayne, I have watched all of those videos now over the past month, they are definitely handy and I will be referring back to them in the near future.

Great insight Ugo, thank you for the post!

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just a question

You are most welcome Sir. I tell you what I tell all my customers that are shopping around. If you end up happy, so am I, whatever your final decision. I practically half-own a very high performance Springer. She is relentless, classy, has an amazing work ethic and just puts a huge smile on my face whenever I hunt her. She is DEADLY on pheasants!! Would I take her late season waterfowling? Not in this lifetime!
Why? Because she can't?
No! Because I care too much for her and she would not hesitate to give her life for a retrieve! Her coat can't provide the protection you need for that sport...period.
I had a chocolate Lab here that was incredible, and it broke my heart to part with him but I can hardly do the dog I already have now justice because I am so busy. It just wasn't fair to hang on to the Lab just because "I wanted to"!
My setter "Emma" has been the most amazing dog I have ever had the pleasure of sharing this earth with, and I have had some dandies! She was a game competitor and is a dream-dog on wild birds either up north or on the prairies. BUT, she (setter) isn't for you in my honest opinion. I still wish I could have kept that Lab. He was not only incredible in the field but such a loving companion - sizable, but gentle yet really tough when the going got tough. His new owner takes him EVERYWHERE and as such, I am content with having done the right thing, even if the thought still saddens me.
Be careful though Wesman41. You can info-overload and I will find holes in THE finest dog you end up with, if I want to be ridiculous. Some of the Lab-wise people here in this forum have forgotten more than some folk know about Labs, including the author of said comment. They are knowledgeable, sincere, candid, and will make a HUGE difference in supporting a decision that involves them in any way. That in itself is PRICELESS! Others truly mean well but just don't have the experience or at least the "right kind" of utile experience. Your job - a tough one - is to know/sort the difference. I have faith in you.
All the best Sir!
Ugo

Rare Breeds are rare for a reason...............

Get yourself a LAB!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rock_o

Rare Breeds are rare for a reason...............

Get yourself a LAB!

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Rarity in some cases is a good thing.
Some guy in continental Europe is probably getting told the exact opposite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

Rarity in some cases is a good thing.
Some guy in continental Europe is probably getting told the exact opposite.

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Right on brother !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wesman41

I know this post will stir up debate, I am really justhoping to hear from current or previous owners in hopes to have moreinformation other than what I have researched to assist me making my decision.

For the past month I have been researching extensively on dog breeds. I havefirst set out my criteria in terms what I am looking for and in no order ofimportance.

-Waterfowling (Early and Late Season)
-Upland Game (Flushing or Pointing)
-Trainability
-Family (Fiancee approval lol) - I need a gun dog, but have to have the ok onfinancing the animal with an approval
-Other Dog friendly

3 breeds I have in mind (in no order) and where I would think about gettingthem are:

Pudelpointer - Pineridge Pudelpointers - These dogs seemed to be very versatile,come from a great family chain at Pineridge, added bonus is that my Fiancée cantolerate the breed, w

German Shorthair Pointer - Again, seem to be a very versatile breed, TwentyValley Pointers is where I have been viewing pups and the current breeding dogsthey have. (Fiancé is not sure on the breed)

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever - Love the look of these dogs, my cousin hasone named Denver, he is a good boy. Fox Grove Kennels is where I initiallythought of but I know there are a couple others. This is my Fiancée’s #1choice, but I am interested in all three and value your input!

Please let me know what you think of the breeds I have in mind and also thebreeders. Runners up to these breeds would be a Golden Lab or a ChocolateChessie, these are ones I know my Fiancée would 'Ok', but are not on the top ofmy list.

Thanks!

W
PS, this is not a debate on whether or not my Fiancee has me by the nuts either haha she is a great girl and encourages me to get out in the woods at every opportunity, I allow her to have input as it is a financial commitment our household will be making and she should be involved in the decision making process.

---

I can speak about the NSDTR: Like many of the retrievers, they are great family pets and are very trainable for hunting and other venues (obedience, agility, Search and rescue, hunt tests). I have been hunting with my boy for the last three years (both geese and ducks). But not all NSDTR are created equal.

They do require training if you want a good hunting dog and you will need to do your homework to look at lineage and proven parents. Sue Kish (Foxgrovekennels.com) and her sister Diane Loiseau (now under: Redzonetollers.com) have both produce some great working dogs over the years. If you are willing to make the $ and time investements, they can be a real joy.


F
Disclaimer: Sue is my Sister in-law

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phraid

I can speak about the NSDTR: Like many of the retrievers, they are great family pets and are very trainable for hunting and other venues (obedience, agility, Search and rescue, hunt tests). I have been hunting with my boy for the last three years (both geese and ducks). But not all NSDTR are created equal.

They do require training if you want a good hunting dog and you will need to do your homework to look at lineage and proven parents. Sue Kish (Foxgrovekennels.com) and her sister Diane Loiseau (now under: Redzonetollers.com) have both produce some great working dogs over the years. If you are willing to make the $ and time investements, they can be a real joy.


F
Disclaimer: Sue is my Sister in-law

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No disclaimer needed. Sue is known to breed good working tollers.

I have talked to Sue on the phone before when i had some interest in a toller . I was very impressed with her dogs after watching a program about her kennel.