Why does everyone push for a lab?

I saw the post asking about what of his top 3 dogs to get for waterfowl and almost everyone said he should forget his top 3 and get a lab.

I understand the hunting that they have done, but there are a lot of different water dogs and really good retrievers out there.

My question is, why does everyone push for a lab?

I will be getting a gun dog once we get our house, and I will be training it for waterfowl and I am leaning heavily to the toller. One of the main reasons is the fact that the breed standards on labs is no massive now, these dogs are almost the weight of the owners, they eat you out of house and home and flatten kids. Labs are notorious for being rammy, not that they mean to hurt anyone but they get really excited and if they bump a child the child is down.

Tollers are about 45lbs, they were specifically developed for hunting and should be no problem if you work with them like you should any dog.

So again, why get a lab? Is it just because of ease of finding one? Is this what you had before? You know a guy? I love the dogs, I would love a chocolate one myself but with the size of them if would make no sense at all.

Never seen a seeing Eye lab being rammy... They learn fairly easily..... Labs come in all sizes!... Search the lab out you want by looking at the gene pool...

That is why I chose a springer this time around.

People choose or recommend a Lab because they are a popular breed and more people have experience with them however popularity has its downfall lots of bad labs out there got to do your homework. Any thread asking about different breeds quickly goes south lots of
non mainstream breeds are excellent hunting dogs it just takes more research and time.

People will push the breeds they own

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

People choose or recommend a Lab because they are a popular breed and more people have experience with them however popularity has its downfall lots of bad labs out there got to do your homework. Any thread asking about different breeds quickly goes south lots of
not mainstream breeds are excellent hunting dogs it just takes more research and time.

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Well put.

People push for Labs for two reasons. First, lots of people have Labs and "do what I did" is a natural answer for various reasons. Second, Labs are popular for a reason, and the reason is they're good dogs. Nobody can say a Lab is a bad choice.

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Originally Posted by hoggie5692

People will push the breeds they own

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Of course they will but the people with experience working with many other breeds will be more closely read.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I will be getting a gun dog once we get our house, and I will be training it for waterfowl and I am leaning heavily to the toller. One of the main reasons is the fact that the breed standards on labs is no massive now, these dogs are almost the weight of the owners, they eat you out of house and home and flatten kids. Labs are notorious for being rammy, not that they mean to hurt anyone but they get really excited and if they bump a child the child is down.

Tollers are about 45lbs, they were specifically developed for hunting and should be no problem if you work with them like you should any dog.

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If "should" was wood, it would be balsa, and you could make one of those wind-up aeroplanes out of it and send ol' "should" augering in on a myth-busting mission. In other words, you need to dig a little deeper in research on both breeds you've cited before espousing such, er, hearsay.

Working Lab standards are hardly "massive" - and even if they were (which would be "courtesy of" the show fancy), the best field-bred retrievers in the greatest numbers to be had (answer your first question there?) are performance Labs. Like, you know, the 50-ish pound Labs that come home for however much dinner you choose to feed them

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps885e02d9.jpg

in return for their bringing home your dinner without being "rammy" about it.

MG

Because if it's not a Lab,,,, it's just a dog! :)

Is that a American pointing lab holding the neighbors goose ?

People push labs because its easier to find a well bred labs because as welsh said they are popular for a reason - they're good dogs. I completely understand - a lab is too big for me as well. I have a field bred english cocker and wouldn't trade it for a lab any day. However, in that other thread for instance, he wanted a dog that could do late season stuff. Realistically a lab or a chessie are your best bet for that. I'll praise my breed up and down but I know he wouldn't be good for much ice water retrieving. You need to be honest with yourself and your dog and really think about what you will use it for.

Pushing.....
Plan and simple. For Ontario environment and many state right in their posts that waterfowl is a target. Especially late season is not suited to many breeds asked about. Never mind cold weather and multiple feet of snow. Up here we hunt right to last day. I've had dogs in Georgian bay fighting 4' waves with slush lines.

Second is training ..... Labs tend to be less stressful training with many quicks other breeds have. Have I seen nice dogs from the breeds men tioned. Absolutely. But quite often less than desirables......

So if you like to gamble and increase the already large oidds a dog may not turn out buy a breed that may not do everything you want or get a shorter haired breed and in the weather we get if you enjoy sitting on the couch watching the birds fly by.

A lab is a retriever. But likely more versatile than and of the versatile breeds....

Just Remember.......

Whatever your decision is be sure to see all the health clearances that are available for your dog. Do not accept someone's statement that they are indeed healthy. Ask to see the clearances. People driving the best breeding of labs are also the driving forces for better health clearances.

Secondly , see some working dogs whether parents or relatives. Get a sense of look, size, colour, temperament etc. Get a sense of how well the dogs are trained. I continue to see absolutely horridly 'trained' dogs that people think are good( good for something!)

Get a sense of how the breeder or owner handles his(her) dog. Are they smart, subtle and encourage the dog to work with them or are they a lunk head.

Don't buy into generalized behaviour statements like 'labs are rammy' in the house. Mine aren't and I gurantee you they are some of the hardest driving dogs you will see. Why.....because if they're smart enough to learn basics and advanced field learning then they are capable of learning how to behave in the house.....just like how you bring your kids up.

All dogs have some strengths, it's really up to you if they will measure up to your expectations.

I went with a lab for a few reasons. #1 is every duck hunting video you see, they're using a lab. I had a lab before I was in to training. Dogs and she was the most gentle dog I had ever owned. Was great with kids and only barked when someone pulled in the driveway. As a bonus, they can run through a patch of burdock and removing burrs only takes a swipe of the hand.

The only retriever breed I'm prejudiced against is Goldens. They are a burr magnet and they don't age well. Two of my cousins have Goldens between 5-10 years old and they all look like they've got at least one paw in the coffin.

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Originally Posted by welsh

People push for Labs for two reasons. First, lots of people have Labs and "do what I did" is a natural answer for various reasons. Second, Labs are popular for a reason, and the reason is they're good dogs. Nobody can say a Lab is a bad choice.

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Spot on.

Labs are a popular breed for a reason, that's for sure. They are service dogs (for the blind, Autistic, those suffering from PTSD, etc etc), they clean up in the performance sports (competitive obedience, agility, rally, etc), they are known for good noses which can be exhibited in a number of venues (tracking, hunt tests, field trials, as well as Canada Border Services as sniffer dogs), they're great hunting dogs (waterfowl and upland) and make great family dogs. Labs can be rammy, yes. Train them to have manners. Labs can get fat, yes. So can humans. Exercise and eating/feeding according to body needs fixes that. People recommend labs because they're versatile and will probably do what the potential owner is wanting their dog to do. Labs also, as a breed, want to learn. They want to please. They are great for a first time dog owner. Get any breed you like, knock yourself out. But people will recommend considering a labrador because their overwhelming number of pros far outweigh the few cons.

For many of the years I have trained with guys it has always been labs and some excellent dogs at that. Very seldom have I seen a bad one and never a vicious one. As some have mentioned, looking into the lines you are sure to find a smaller one and well rounded for sure. Just my 2 cents and I am a Chessie guy for 30 years now.

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Originally Posted by BurlyGirl

Spot on.

Labs are a popular breed for a reason, that's for sure. They are service dogs (for the blind, Autistic, those suffering from PTSD, etc etc), they clean up in the performance sports (competitive obedience, agility, rally, etc), they are known for good noses which can be exhibited in a number of venues (tracking, hunt tests, field trials, as well as Canada Border Services as sniffer dogs), they're great hunting dogs (waterfowl and upland) and make great family dogs. Labs can be rammy, yes. Train them to have manners. Labs can get fat, yes. So can humans. Exercise and eating/feeding according to body needs fixes that. People recommend labs because they're versatile and will probably do what the potential owner is wanting their dog to do. Labs also, as a breed, want to learn. They want to please. They are great for a first time dog owner. Get any breed you like, knock yourself out. But people will recommend considering a labrador because their overwhelming number of pros far outweigh the few cons.

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I have had many Labs and a couple of Goldens over the years but you also described my Springer Spaniel. I am finding my Springer to be just as affectionate as my Labs or Goldens and an outstanding willingness to learn. She is extremely birdy and very curious to the point that she needs to be mentally stimulated with her training at all times.

Ok, so labs are service dogs and no service dogs are rammy, hmm, but only a few dogs are actually used for service dogs. I am sure that the lab that is used for a seeing eye dog would not have the drive for duck hunting. My issue is with how the breed has changed. A 130lb lab is just insane, they have big problems with their hips when they get that size and I still cannot believe that they are any warmer since they are still a short coated dog.

As for the rest of the service dogs, PTSD animals can be anything, dogs are amazing at knowing when you are feeling down, hell even some cats are good at that. Sniffer dogs, look at beagles, I see them all over the airports. German shepherds are still a go to breed for many of these roles as well, so why do people not talk about other breeds for waterfowl hunting.

Standard poodles used to be a go to breed for waterfowl, along with the Portuguese water dog, they have fur that keeps them afloat and warm in late season hunts. The Toller was designed for hunting in Nova Scotia and I have been told has one of the best drives of any of these, they have webbed feet and are supposed to stay warm in even late season.

Don't get me wrong, I have always loved labs, I hunted with a friend just west of Ottawa with his Lab, but I asked him about smaller retrievers and he laughed, his dog was just over a year old and already 67 pounds, without adding any bulk to his bones. This man also knows his labs, his wife used to raise them and he would train them, he has had wonderful labs and amazing hunters although they are all a little insane and all very heavy.

You asked... We told ya... Lol... Get what suits you...

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Originally Posted by Fox

Ok, so labs are service dogs and no service dogs are rammy, hmm, but only a few dogs are actually used for service dogs. I am sure that the lab that is used for a seeing eye dog would not have the drive for duck hunting. My issue is with how the breed has changed. A 130lb lab is just insane, they have big problems with their hips when they get that size and I still cannot believe that they are any warmer since they are still a short coated dog.

As for the rest of the service dogs, PTSD animals can be anything, dogs are amazing at knowing when you are feeling down, hell even some cats are good at that. Sniffer dogs, look at beagles, I see them all over the airports. German shepherds are still a go to breed for many of these roles as well, so why do people not talk about other breeds for waterfowl hunting.

Standard poodles used to be a go to breed for waterfowl, along with the Portuguese water dog, they have fur that keeps them afloat and warm in late season hunts. The Toller was designed for hunting in Nova Scotia and I have been told has one of the best drives of any of these, they have webbed feet and are supposed to stay warm in even late season.

Don't get me wrong, I have always loved labs, I hunted with a friend just west of Ottawa with his Lab, but I asked him about smaller retrievers and he laughed, his dog was just over a year old and already 67 pounds, without adding any bulk to his bones. This man also knows his labs, his wife used to raise them and he would train them, he has had wonderful labs and amazing hunters although they are all a little insane and all very heavy.

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My seven year old lab is 53lbs out of show and field lines. Hips and elbows rated excellent and a great hunting companion. Really depends on the kennel you go to for advice such as health clearances and take into consideration the size of the breeding stock. I would never purchase a lab knowing potentially these pups as adult would be in the 70lb range and up. I prefer the runt of the litter and have had good results with my lab when I purchased her as the runt.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

My seven year old lab is 53lbs out of show and field lines. Hips and elbows rated excellent and a great hunting companion. Really depends on the kennel you go to for advice such as health clearances and take into consideration the size of the breeding stock. I would never purchase a lab knowing potentially these pups as adult would be in the 70lb range and up. I prefer the runt of the litter and have had good results with my lab when I purchased her as the runt.

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The fear for me would be getting on that is huge, the extra weight is so hard on the dog, I do not want to do that to them. We had a rottie back when I was growing up that was not too big and had proper genes but even with that had an enlarged heart and hip issues, it was a sad day when we had to put him down.

Breeders have developed dogs for purposes that are unknown to me at times, I have not seen this in gun dogs yet, but there are freaky things that the kennel club encourages that is just horrible to the breed and to the individual dogs. Has anyone seen how low the back end of a German Shepard is now a days?

I will examine what fits us best when we finally get our place and get a dog. I was just wondering why there are so few people even considering something other then a lab and I guess I have my answer.

As far a goldens aging early goes, not all do. The ones your cousins have may be the exception. I had a golden at age 10 ran the National Master and qualified and later that year she finished her grand master. As well we hunted that fall. She was like a puppy and didn't look her age, even the judges were surprised at how old she was. That said I have seen labs that look ancient by age 10, partly because they were black and the grey shows up in their muzzle. I also have a 9 year old still working and there are labs out there that have a hard time keeping up with her.
deb

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Originally Posted by BurlyGirl

Spot on.

Labs are a popular breed for a reason, that's for sure. They are service dogs (for the blind, Autistic, those suffering from PTSD, etc etc), they clean up in the performance sports (competitive obedience, agility, rally, etc), they are known for good noses which can be exhibited in a number of venues (tracking, hunt tests, field trials, as well as Canada Border Services as sniffer dogs), they're great hunting dogs (waterfowl and upland) and make great family dogs. Labs can be rammy, yes. Train them to have manners. Labs can get fat, yes. So can humans. Exercise and eating/feeding according to body needs fixes that. People recommend labs because they're versatile and will probably do what the potential owner is wanting their dog to do. Labs also, as a breed, want to learn. They want to please. They are great for a first time dog owner. Get any breed you like, knock yourself out. But people will recommend considering a labrador because their overwhelming number of pros far outweigh the few cons.

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I have also seen aggressive Labs over the years but have no idea what bloodlines they were out of. Every breed has some rotten apples because of poor breeding practice or lack of socialization.

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Originally Posted by Longgun

As far a goldens aging early goes, not all do. The ones your cousins have may be the exception. I had a golden at age 10 ran the National Master and qualified and later that year she finished her grand master. As well we hunted that fall. She was like a puppy and didn't look her age, even the judges were surprised at how old she was. That said I have seen labs that look ancient by age 10, partly because they were black and the grey shows up in their muzzle. I also have a 9 year old still working and there are labs out there that have a hard time keeping up with her.
deb

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That would be the genetics behind the dog or any breed of dog that doesn't age well.

I ran a 17 year old Siberian Husky in my dog team and he passed away in the spring in his sleep. Age fourteen and fifteen he was a demon on the trail and was out of old working bloodlines (healthy). He was my main stud and all his offspring were the same and shipped a few litters to different parts of the world because of his healthy genetics.

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Originally Posted by barenn

For many of the years I have trained with guys it has always been labs and some excellent dogs at that. Very seldom have I seen a bad one and never a vicious one. As some have mentioned, looking into the lines you are sure to find a smaller one and well rounded for sure. Just my 2 cents and I am a Chessie guy for 30 years now.

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My dog has been "attacked three times" in the last 2mths in a local off leash park.Twice the attacking dogs were yellow labs and the third time a husky cross.I suppose its the owners fault,one guy after the attack simply pulled his dog away.The other lady a "dog walker" was very upset and wanted to mak sure my dog was ok.So they can be vicious.These were completely unprovoked attacks.

That's because you were at an off leash dog park !!!

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

That's because you were at an off leash dog park !!!

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Do you believe owners should not take responsibility in an off leash park for the behaviour of their dogs??

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Do you believe owners should not take responsibility in an off leash park for the behaviour of their dogs??

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Absolutely!

But Gilroy, I gave you more credit than to go to one of those areas....just kidding......I do understand how you felt, not something one wants to be involved with.

I can see that Gilroy, my comment was in regards to training only as we always had different people show up for training and never had an issue with the labs as they were all labs and myself with the Chessies. I suppose alot to do with the owners and how they are trained.

I have worked for a few municipalities over the years as a manager of Parks and Recreation and Maintenance Manager. Very few dog parks work based on my many years of experience. The myth is especially an off leash dog park that most of the animals are well behaved and trained. My experience is the opposite and have found many people that do not provide the training and go to a dog park and release there dog. These people may work all day and come home to a hyper dog that needs to be mentally stimulated and exercised. These people show up at the dog park thinking all is good but the outcome is disastrous because they have no training in obedience. These dogs go on a rampage and start tackling other dogs and a dog fights start. I have heard the same story over and over that he or she listens at home and cannot understand what came over there dog. My advice is stay clear of dog parks until you can guarantee your dog to be completely obedient off leash.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Ok, so labs are service dogs and no service dogs are rammy, hmm, but only a few dogs are actually used for service dogs. I am sure that the lab that is used for a seeing eye dog would not have the drive for duck hunting. My issue is with how the breed has changed. A 130lb lab is just insane, they have big problems with their hips when they get that size and I still cannot believe that they are any warmer since they are still a short coated dog.

As for the rest of the service dogs, PTSD animals can be anything, dogs are amazing at knowing when you are feeling down, hell even some cats are good at that. Sniffer dogs, look at beagles, I see them all over the airports. German shepherds are still a go to breed for many of these roles as well, so why do people not talk about other breeds for waterfowl hunting.

Standard poodles used to be a go to breed for waterfowl, along with the Portuguese water dog, they have fur that keeps them afloat and warm in late season hunts. The Toller was designed for hunting in Nova Scotia and I have been told has one of the best drives of any of these, they have webbed feet and are supposed to stay warm in even late season.

Don't get me wrong, I have always loved labs, I hunted with a friend just west of Ottawa with his Lab, but I asked him about smaller retrievers and he laughed, his dog was just over a year old and already 67 pounds, without adding any bulk to his bones. This man also knows his labs, his wife used to raise them and he would train them, he has had wonderful labs and amazing hunters although they are all a little insane and all very heavy.

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So do your homework and research the pedigree before committing to a pup from a litter. My point was that labradors are versatile and I gave you many examples of all the different things they do. The breed itself is well rounded. From there, find a line that boasts the traits you want in your dog. From there, find out what litters are expected. From there, go meet the parents. You asked why people 'push' for labs. I told you why I think they're the automatic go-to breed.

As for anyone jumping in giving an example of a nasty lab they encountered, you're talking about the exception to the rule, not the breed itself. You're always going to hear of an exception to any rule. There are nasty goldens that exist out there. There are also lovely, cuddly ones out there that age well and love to work. There is a phenomenon known as "Springer Rage". There are also springers out there who are great family dogs. So I don't exactly see how pointing out how you met one nasty lab once paints a picture of the breed as a whole. I met a jacka** man once....does that mean all men are jacka**e$? LOL

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Originally Posted by Longgun

As far a goldens aging early goes, not all do. The ones your cousins have may be the exception. I had a golden at age 10 ran the National Master and qualified and later that year she finished her grand master. As well we hunted that fall. She was like a puppy and didn't look her age, even the judges were surprised at how old she was. That said I have seen labs that look ancient by age 10, partly because they were black and the grey shows up in their muzzle. I also have a 9 year old still working and there are labs out there that have a hard time keeping up with her.
deb

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I was shocked when you told me how old your girl was at the National. She's aging better than Burly. She looks great, Deb =)

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Originally Posted by BurlyGirl

So do your homework and research the pedigree before committing to a pup from a litter. My point was that labradors are versatile and I gave you many examples of all the different things they do. The breed itself is well rounded. From there, find a line that boasts the traits you want in your dog. From there, find out what litters are expected. From there, go meet the parents. You asked why people 'push' for labs. I told you why I think they're the automatic go-to breed.

As for anyone jumping in giving an example of a nasty lab they encountered, you're talking about the exception to the rule, not the breed itself. You're always going to hear of an exception to any rule. There are nasty goldens that exist out there. There are also lovely, cuddly ones out there that age well and love to work. There is a phenomenon known as "Springer Rage". There are also springers out there who are great family dogs. So I don't exactly see how pointing out how you met one nasty lab once paints a picture of the breed as a whole. I met a jacka** man once....does that mean all men are jacka**e$? LOL

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Yes BurlyGirl you are correct and I had said on page four of this thread that every breed has some rotten apples because of poor breeding practices or lack of socialization.

To answer the original question.... A lot of people recommend labs, because a lot of people own them. The traits that make them popular are NOT exclusive to labradors. They are the result of focused breeding. It just happens that being calm is a desired trait in a duck boat/blind and in a mall food court. Easilly trained is a positive no matter what you plan on doing with a dog. Friendly to people and other dogs is pretty important when hunting in a group, or guiding a person down a city street.
The reason they are the "go to breed" for so many is personal preference. It could be someone saw a lab fetch a paper, guide a blind person, type an essay, or whatever, but the more popular a breed becomes the more tasks they will be tried at. The more tasks they can do, the more exposure to new people and the more popular they become. Having the most common breed is a bonus for some, a minus for others.

The OP keeps referring to Tollers, look at their original purpose. They were bred to run up and down the beach to draw birds close to shore and put them in the range of the gun. They are not as good in cold water as a Lab. A chessie is a great option as well however most new trainers don't have what it takes to train a chessie. Not a knock against the breed, but they require a strong trainer as they can be a little headstrong.
Headstrong dogs that are broke are usually better dogs in the end, but it takes work to get there.

Which is why people recommend labs.

Cdn Vizla, I agree with you that Chessies are not what a first time trainer should have, unless they are simply going to let a dog learn to hunt by experience, and be satisfied with limited results.
I also agree that they need an experienced trainer. Not because they are strong headed or willed, however.
That is an old wives tale. They are strong willed, but a good chessie trainer knows how to get in their head. I am not one of them.
I would guess that Chessis have been subjected to the wrong approaches more than any other breed.
2x4's only set you back with them. (that is a figure of speech)
John Ackerman, in the USA is one of few Chessie trainers that competes successfully with Chessies in Field trials. He knows their head.
Chessies are not as mentally tough as people think.
/the old saying you catch more flies with sugar than....etc holds true.

Labber-- that goes for every dog. I have had dogs that would lay their lives on the line ti save you. That sort of devotion can't be forced into a dog.
Understanding the breed and individual dog is essential to a good relationship.

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

Labber-- that goes for every dog. I have had dogs that would lay their lives on the line ti save you. That sort of devotion can't be forced into a dog.
Understanding the breed and individual dog is essential to a good relationship.

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Good Point.

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

The OP keeps referring to Tollers, look at their original purpose. They were bred to run up and down the beach to draw birds close to shore and put them in the range of the gun. They are not as good in cold water as a Lab. A chessie is a great option as well however most new trainers don't have what it takes to train a chessie. Not a knock against the breed, but they require a strong trainer as they can be a little headstrong.
Headstrong dogs that are broke are usually better dogs in the end, but it takes work to get there.

Which is why people recommend labs.

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Well said. My Dad had a Chessie- an excellent retriever etc. I still remember him hip checking me off the pier at Port Stanley when I was about 5. :)

My brother's friend had a chessie lab mix and was a really good duck dog. I think it was around 90lbs and was very gentle but as soon as it hit the duck blind he was all business.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

I have worked for a few municipalities over the years as a manager of Parks and Recreation and Maintenance Manager. Very few dog parks work based on my many years of experience. The myth is especially an off leash dog park that most of the animals are well behaved and trained. My experience is the opposite and have found many people that do not provide the training and go to a dog park and release there dog. These people may work all day and come home to a hyper dog that needs to be mentally stimulated and exercised. These people show up at the dog park thinking all is good but the outcome is disastrous because they have no training in obedience. These dogs go on a rampage and start tackling other dogs and a dog fights start. I have heard the same story over and over that he or she listens at home and cannot understand what came over there dog. My advice is stay clear of dog parks until you can guarantee your dog to be completely obedient off leash.

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I agree with you in your post and for my own part I use a shock collar to get my dogs attention at the park when he gets a little to excited meeting all the other dogs.All that aside I have seen on numerous occasions completely unprovoked attacks on individual dogs.
We have three teams of DOG WALKERS at the Jack Darling park I attend occasionaly.Each walker has 15 dogs all off leash.They almost never have control of the whole pack (how could they).I have even seen them leaving dogs behind because they miscounted and came back an hour later looking for the missing dog.LOL
I have also meet owners with aggresive dogs and have indicated to them to conrtol the dog the pat answer "its an off leask park, whats your problem".

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

I agree with you in your post and for my own part I use a shock collar to get my dogs attention at the park when he gets a little to excited meeting all the other dogs.All that aside I have seen on numerous occasions completely unprovoked attacks on individual dogs.
We have three teams of DOG WALKERS at the Jack Darling park I attend occasionaly.Each walker has 15 dogs all off leash.They almost never have control of the whole pack (how could they).I have even seen them leaving dogs behind because they miscounted and came back an hour later looking for the missing dog.LOL
I have also meet owners with aggresive dogs and have indicated to them to conrtol the dog the pat answer "its an off leask park, whats your problem".

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Thanks for the PM Gilroy.

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Originally Posted by PaulR

Because if it's not a Lab,,,, it's just a dog! :)

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And if it's not a Chocolate,,,,, it's just a Lab! :)

I have 2 labs, one chocolate and the other black. Both are excellent retrievers, both are great upland bird and both are great with kids. My new pup is an Airedale, of the RedLine group. He is an excellent hunter even at 12 weeks. He just doesn't shed so he's easier on my wife's asthma.

A lab is like a Honda engine, well built and reliable and starts first pull every time:)

No disrespect intended, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding the OP. It sounds like his question can be paraphrased and summarized as:

"Why are Ford F-150 pickups so popular among hunters in general when what I specifically need is a Dodge Grand Caravan minivan?"

Is there really an answer to this sort of question?

I need a dog to make over 1000 retrieves per year, be social with many different people and have the size to run down wing tipped geese on dry fields. Other than maybe a CBR no other dog other than a lab will do what I require.

Bardern-- how many other breeds have you tried?

Barden If you are talking dry fields, then any of the larger Euro dogs will handle that with ease, and have more speed then a lab to run down those cripples.

yeah I know there are a few other breeds that might have been able to fit the bill. What I did with my lab was to look for a breeder that was producing the long bodied, long legged American type of lab. Guage is one of the quickest if not the quickest labs I have come across. A good friend of mine, Peter McCooyee, has the top ranked North America GSP from a few years back. Boots is an exceptional dog and might have fit the bill but it is a lot easier to find a good field lab for what I need than to find one of the versatile breeds. That being said Petes dog can blood trail, point, hound and retrieve amazingly well, then again he was North American Champion!

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

Barden If you are talking dry fields, then any of the larger Euro dogs will handle that with ease, and have more speed then a lab to run down those cripples.

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Say what, cdnv?!? Is that comment straight out of the Flat Earth Society playbook?:ninja:

What Labs have you been watching lately, other than the one on Downton Abbey?...But regardless, performance Labs have a tendency to

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps8499ded1.jpg

push for themselves pretty well, too, and at speed -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...-30-10485b.jpg

- cripples included.

MG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

yeah I know there are a few other breeds that might have been able to fit the bill. What I did with my lab was to look for a breeder that was producing the long bodied, long legged American type of lab. Guage is one of the quickest if not the quickest labs I have come across. A good friend of mine, Peter McCooyee, has the top ranked North America GSP from a few years back. Boots is an exceptional dog and might have fit the bill but it is a lot easier to find a good field lab for what I need than to find one of the versatile breeds. That being said Petes dog can blood trail, point, hound and retrieve amazingly well, then again he was North American Champion!

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You mean the American long legged pointing lab?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crackerd

Say what, cdnv?!? Is that comment straight out of the Flat Earth Society playbook?:ninja:

What Labs have you been watching lately, other than the one on Downton Abbey?...But regardless, performance Labs have a tendency to

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps8499ded1.jpg

push for themselves pretty well, too, and at speed -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...-30-10485b.jpg

- cripples included.

MG

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I see no Otter tail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

You mean the American long legged pointing lab?

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Is that the BlackALLPL, the ChocolateALLPL or the YellowALLPL? I feel the white, (or is it ghost?) ALLPL has been unrightfully neglected in the hunting world.

Nice pics there MG.

I can clearly see a well FF dog in action!

Can't imagine going much faster.......geez they're too fast already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

I saw the post asking about what of his top 3 dogs to get for waterfowl and almost everyone said he should forget his top 3 and get a lab.

I understand the hunting that they have done, but there are a lot of different water dogs and really good retrievers out there.

My question is, why does everyone push for a lab?

I will be getting a gun dog once we get our house, and I will be training it for waterfowl and I am leaning heavily to the toller. One of the main reasons is the fact that the breed standards on labs is no massive now, these dogs are almost the weight of the owners, they eat you out of house and home and flatten kids. Labs are notorious for being rammy, not that they mean to hurt anyone but they get really excited and if they bump a child the child is down.

Tollers are about 45lbs, they were specifically developed for hunting and should be no problem if you work with them like you should any dog.

So again, why get a lab? Is it just because of ease of finding one? Is this what you had before? You know a guy? I love the dogs, I would love a chocolate one myself but with the size of them if would make no sense at all.

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Hey Fox,

I think the majority of people "push" a lab simply because of the breed's popularity. In our country, there are more lab owners than any other dog and the hunting community is reflection of that. All versatile breeds can do a great job in the field (when I say field, I mean of course the outdoors, not literally simply fields), I don't think anyone would dispute this. However, labs would be at the top of this group due to trainability and attitude and the ability to preform no matter what weather you will encounter in the field. Labrador retrievers are a part of Canadiana as well. While Canada has produced other hunting dog breeds (NSDT) which will go out and do the job (I don't think anyone would doubt that), the lab is superior to most of his Canadian breed counterparts.

Most guys who regularly hunt with labs don't want big labs. They want fit labs. Big labs mean more weight and when you are in a canoe paddling out to the duck blind, weight is important. As for flattening kids, any good sized dog who doesn't know how to behave with children could flatten them (depending of course on the child's age and size of the dog).

Most people want a lab because the breed is easily available and meets their needs. If other breeds were more available (more breeders), I would have no doubt you would see more people suggesting the breed they have.

Tollers are great dogs and a good choice for hunting. If that is what makes you happy, go for it. A good friend of mine has a toller and he is extremely happy with the dog. However, it took him a lot of work to mould the dog as the dog wanted to do what his instincts told him to do. For example, early goose season this year, my buddy had a flock on the pond a few hundred meters away and was trying to get them to lift into the field he was in. He got them up, they started to swing over to the spread. The dog bolts from the dog blind and "dances" in the field (as his instincts told him to do) to attract the geese. Green field and fox-red dog equals birds gone.

Dyth

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

You mean the American long legged pointing lab?

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I dunno? If you are referring to the 95 lb black lab that has hunted with me from Alberta to Quebec, I guess so :confused:. Can't say as he is much of a pointer but he has had to retrieve for groups of eight shooters with daily limits of 128 birds and more than a few seasons of 1000+ retrieves. ;)

Boots is an exceptional dog, (don't tell Peter I said that HAHA)
He is one of many Versatile Champions from a number of different breeds.
They aren't as hard to find as you might think, but they are like finding a good dog in any breed you need to know who to ask and where to go.

As far as the flat earth goes, you need to take a reality check, the pointing breeds run circles around the retrievers when it comes to speed. It is after all what they were bred for. Labs are like the HUM V of the dog world, slow steady and will go through anything and they get the job done. The versatiles are more like the SUV's they can do it all but have their limitations, more fleet a foot then a lab, but lack the body composition for serious winter waterfowling. The Pointers and Setters are the Sports cars fast and nimble first on race day but not the ride you want in a snowstorm.
In the end you need to decide what route you want a specialist or a generalist, being aware that the purpose you have in mind will dictate what you really NEED and should overcome what your WANT

ok cdnvizsla now the gloves are off! here is what we will do. we will set up 3 100yd retrieves on 10pd geese back to back and we will time Guage and the pointer of your choise. The loser buys beer for a year or seeing your a pointer type of guy Perrier. ;-)

as you can see from the avatar on the left obviously he is a fine representation of the breed!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

As far as the flat earth goes, you need to take a reality check, the pointing breeds run circles around the retrievers when it comes to speed... Labs are like the HUM V of the dog world, slow steady

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cdnv, tried giving you a lifeline with the flat earth jest - not a shovel for digging yourself into a deeper hole. But if you can extricate yourself from it, you may want to do as kraka advises and go watch a retriever field trial to see just how slow

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...hunt580c-1.jpg

(and steady, too) performance Labs really are. Most of the time they're that "slow" even with something in their mouths on the recall, too, 'cause they've got to go out "slow" again for a second retrieve and maybe a third or fourth, at say 400-450 yards.

MG

Ah yes here we go. The old my dog is faster, smarter blah blah blah. The reality is the different breeds are for different hunts. Apples and Oranges. Very few pointing breeds could handle serious waterfowling especially late season and very few retrievers could follow an all age field trial pointing breed that covers ground like a Jackrabbit without having a heart attack. There is a reason why pointing breed field trials are judged from horseback. Very different games. The thing is there can be a middle ground and the slower retrievers can still produce upland birds successfully and some pointing breeds can still be used for waterfowl. My opinion to the OP was to buy a dog that best suits what he intends on hunting most. I recommended the Lab based on his waterfowl criteria. Great breed, lots of choice in breeders but I don't duck hunt anymore so would likely never buy one.

Terry it has been such a long crappy winter I am bored stiff and have been reduced to trying to stir the "mine is bigger" pot. no meant offence to anyone.


Labs are the ultimate sporting dog BTW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

I need a dog to make over 1000 retrieves per year, be social with many different people and have the size to run down wing tipped geese on dry fields. Other than maybe a CBR no other dog other than a lab will do what I require.

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I have to disagree with you on that one Barry. A GSP, GWP, or PP will do exactly and the first two are more likely put that wing tipped goose to shame than a lab. How many labs will tangle with a badger and come out on top? Many many GSP and GWP do that each year when hunting upland out west.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

ok cdnvizsla now the gloves are off! here is what we will do. we will set up 3 100yd retrieves on 10pd geese back to back and we will time Guage and the pointer of your choise. The loser buys beer for a year or seeing your a pointer type of guy Perrier. ;-)

as you can see from the avatar on the left obviously he is a fine representation of the breed!

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Barry, again bud, sorry to disagree but I have seen Cdn's vizlas run 100 yard marks.....for your sake I hope he drinks something cheap lol.

Edit*** Not too sure on the return with a 10lbs goose...haven't observed that.

The fastest world class sprint dog teams are English pointers, GSP, Graysters . A lab doesn't even come to reaching these top speeds running in a dog team. Anyone saying they can is a fool.

mine is still bigger.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

mine is still bigger.....

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Funny man.

I try not to recommend any type of dog to any one. I love my labs but they are not the dog for some people. I don't recommend people get a certain breed because if it doesn't turn out then you are to blame. I will tell people about what I have done with my labs but tell them that they need to shop around and find out what breed is going to fit into their family, their interests and their perfered hunting. Some I would like to recommend some get a cat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

mine is still bigger.....

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Which is why he can't catch mine..........:ninja:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

mine is still bigger.....

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ROFLMBO :) Thanks . Great way to start my day - yes I know it's 2pm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharon

ROFLMBO :) Thanks . Great way to start my day - yes I know it's 2pm.

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Terry I think Sharon MIGHT have got the real meaning behind my post. :scream: :joker:

Married 40 years. What more can I say? LOL

Those little wee geese you pointer ,yellow lab, chessie ,toller and spaniel folks have your dogs retrieve . Even a chihuaha could retrieve those at high speed at a 1000 yds . Only black labs can bring them home this size . Yup way,way bigger geese than any of yours .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...i/PB040013.jpg

TD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardern

Terry I think Sharon MIGHT have got the real meaning behind my post. :scream: :joker:

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Wooshhhh.....that one went right over my head. Can't get those Zingers past Sharon though...:joker:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 400bigbear

Those little wee geese you pointer ,yellow lab, chessie ,toller and spaniel folks have your dogs retrieve . Even a chihuaha could retrieve those at high speed at a 1000 yds . Only black labs can bring them home this size . Yup way,way bigger geese than any of yours .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...i/PB040013.jpg

TD

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That's all fine and dandy but I'm not helping you pluck that thing.

Damn terrym . I thought for sure you would be up to the task . lmao

TD

I have a roller now and he is a very good retriever. Got him from Little River Kennels in Yarmouth, NS. Depends on what kind of hunting you're doing but they're very good retrievers. Great family pets too. He's always gentle around little kids if that's something you're concerned about, also a little aloof so that's kinda helpful too. We got a rather large Toller (50lbs roughly) and he can handle pretty much anything you throw at him

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrym

Wooshhhh.....that one went right over my head. Can't get those Zingers past Sharon though...:joker:

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After 20 years at the jail , I don't miss much about male talk. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheWhiteman

I have a roller now and he is a very good retriever. Got him from Little River Kennels in Yarmouth, NS. Depends on what kind of hunting you're doing but they're very good retrievers. Great family pets too. He's always gentle around little kids if that's something you're concerned about, also a little aloof so that's kinda helpful too. We got a rather large Toller (50lbs roughly) and he can handle pretty much anything you throw at him

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That is a big Toller. Do you have a picture to post? Very famous Toller kennel. You done good. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebenezer

I try not to recommend any type of dog to any one. I love my labs but they are not the dog for some people. I don't recommend people get a certain breed because if it doesn't turn out then you are to blame. I will tell people about what I have done with my labs but tell them that they need to shop around and find out what breed is going to fit into their family, their interests and their perfered hunting. Some I would like to recommend some get a cat.

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LOL
I personally see great value in a dog that knocks over kids.

Well I have seen a Lab trial and even thrown marks for them.
My little vizsla had the lab guys shaking their heads at the speed in which he goes out and comes back with the duck.
As far as geese go, 5 years of hunting ducks, geese and snows in Saskatchewan says he can handle the big birds quite well.
The bonus being wing clipped sharps and sage grouse that fly off half a mile come back too because of the speed and tracking ability

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Labber

LOL
I personally see great value in a dog that knocks over kids.

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Labber if you have a dog that can knock your Jack over its gonna eat the bird, the blind and any cows it comes across

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

Labber if you have a dog that can knock your Jack over its gonna eat the bird, the blind and any cows it comes across

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Port??? :-)

I have owned, trained and trialled pointers and setters over the years through NAVHDA and NSTRA I am yet to see one repeat any of the above tests when it is -10 and they have to swim through ice for it and then sit out and wait for the next bird to fall. I had my lab out last day of duck season and she had go over and under floating ice to make retrieves (I have seen both GSPs and GWPs fail in these conditions). I mean no offence to the pointer and setter people but I would never try to tell you my lab is better on grouse than your dogs.

The labs and chessies are the undisputed kings of the late season waterfowl and waterfowl in general.
But in a field situation they don't carry the same speed as a pointer or setter and they can therefore get the job done faster.
Having hunted snows in fields over pointers the speed makes a big difference on cripples.
With 5 or 6 guns shooting its not uncommon to have double digits fall in a single volley.
The speed makes a huge difference in cleaning up the cripples.

I have said it all along if your a waterfowler get a lab.

As to the -10 NAVHDA tests, I have had the misfortune of running a UT test when the dog had to break ice to do the duck search and the retrieve. The dog did it with no issues but he didn't spend any more time out of the truck then he needed to so he stayed warm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skeeter1

I have owned, trained and trialled pointers and setters over the years through NAVHDA and NSTRA I am yet to see one repeat any of the above tests when it is -10 and they have to swim through ice for it and then sit out and wait for the next bird to fall. I had my lab out last day of duck season and she had go over and under floating ice to make retrieves (I have seen both GSPs and GWPs fail in these conditions). I mean no offence to the pointer and setter people but I would never try to tell you my lab is better on grouse than your dogs.

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Very well said and I agree. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grizzlygreig

You asked... We told ya... Lol... Get what suits you...

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This can go on for days LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

Well I have seen a Lab trial and even thrown marks for them.
My little vizsla had the lab guys shaking their heads at the speed in which he goes out and comes back with the duck.
As far as geese go, 5 years of hunting ducks, geese and snows in Saskatchewan says he can handle the big birds quite well.
The bonus being wing clipped sharps and sage grouse that fly off half a mile come back too because of the speed and tracking ability

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I think someone is a little "Kennel Blind"!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

The labs and chessies are the undisputed kings of the late season waterfowl and waterfowl in general.
But in a field situation they don't carry the same speed as a pointer or setter and they can therefore get the job done faster.
Having hunted snows in fields over pointers the speed makes a big difference on cripples.
With 5 or 6 guns shooting its not uncommon to have double digits fall in a single volley.
The speed makes a huge difference in cleaning up the cripples.


I have said it all along if your a waterfowler get a lab.

As to the -10 NAVHDA tests, I have had the misfortune of running a UT test when the dog had to break ice to do the duck search and the retrieve. The dog did it with no issues but he didn't spend any more time out of the truck then he needed to so he stayed warm

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I will add this though, when I was transitioning out of poiniters into labs a buddy of mine would pheasant hunt with a GWP, two GSPs and one lab. It did not take the lab long to learn what a "point" and "back" was, he would simply run with the others, let them set up and then run in and bust the bird and give chase. He thought that was great, and there was three p'od pointers standing there, so maybe they are better LOLOL:):):)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skeeter1

I will add this though, when I was transitioning out of poiniters into labs a buddy of mine would pheasant hunt with a GWP, two GSPs and one lab. It did not take the lab long to learn what a "point" and "back" was, he would simply run with the others, let them set up and then run in and bust the bird and give chase. He thought that was great, and there was three p'od pointers standing there, so maybe they are better LOLOL:):):)

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Sounds like another painful episode of American Wingshooter with Tom Knapp and his awful black lab lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jobbershunting

Sounds like another painful episode of American Wingshooter with Tom Knapp and his awful black lab lol

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Careful there, jobbers, that just might've been one of those G*ntl*m*n's Gundog Labs alongside Mr. Knapp - against which nothing libelous, including their preposterous price tag and absurd claims of "gamefinding" superiority, can be brooked. One thing you can say with certainty (and see with your own eyes) is that while Tom was a great trick shot artist, he was no dog trainer.

MG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crackerd

Careful there, jobbers, that just might've been one of those G*ntl*m*n's Gundog Labs alongside Mr. Knapp - against which nothing libelous, including their preposterous price tag and absurd claims of "gamefinding" superiority, can be brooked. One thing you can say with certainty (and see with your own eyes) is that while Tom was a great trick shot artist, he was no dog trainer.

MG

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Trick shot artist for sure , but he did miss a lot of actaul birds when hunting especially diver ducks !

I wish people wouls stop pushing them. 25 years of being the number one registered breed, don't think they need to be pushed.

Interesting posts, I have a lab and will get another. My boy is now 6 and is 67lbs, will hunt all day with my friends GSP. They respect each others space and don't fight over birds, most of our upland hunts are productive. The lab I have is my first hunting breed but I have had the pleasure of having and training other breeds in the past. I have found training very easy and my boy is always eager to please. I chose a lab because they tend to be good family dogs and can handle rough weather conditions and cold. I haven't used him for water retrieving yet but that will come this year.

In my opinion, if the OP wants a Toller, he should get one. If he wants a Lab, he should get one. If as Ebenezer suggested, a cat is the ticket, well........never mind.
I have not worked with many Labs (only 3 and I LOVED all 3!!!). If "I" was looking for a versatile dog with emphasis on waterfowling, especially late season waterfowling, I would have no hesitation in picking the Lab.
Further-to-this, I think Labs offer a relentless (perhaps a little more methodical than a springer) style coupled with very high efficiency on ditch parrots. In fact, I actually prefer flushers in general for this 1/2 bird & 1/2 rabbit. Once again, when you factor in late season waterfowling, I pick the Lab, not that there aren't other fine breeds and specialists within any breed out there.
Hey...I had a customer that swore by the fact that his best ever grouse dog was his German shepherd. Who am I to argue that? He likes what he likes.

Not more methodical than a Springer.

yellow dog, I apologize if I wasn't clear. What I meant to say is that the Springer typically has a more animated application than Labs. It is not a reflection of the effectiveness of either breed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ugo

yellow dog, I apologize if I wasn't clear. What I meant to say is that the Springer typically has a more animated application than Labs. It is not a reflection of the effectiveness of either breed.

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No problem.