ofah snubs fishncanada show

the ofah refused to give their point of view on the restocking efforts of atlantic salmon into lake ontario without having others on their side to beat on daryl cronzy and others who say the numbers show its not worth the money being spent. for the millions of fish put in only 100 at the most have been counted returning, opg has been giving to the ofah 1.25 million i believe each year and the lcbo also gives plenty which both are our tax dollars. the ofah is a media giant and i look at them and say like all companys once they get to big they stop listening to the people who use the outdoors. since 2008 its alot of money put into a restocking effort with no results where it could have been put into stocking of rainbows, chinnook, browns into lake ontario, and possibly trying to helping out the walleye numbers in scugog as it sees heavy fishing pressure and brings money in from a large area of anglers who use it. lets get on with a program which will show results .

This ought to get interesting.

Questions.
- if no StA would the LCBO, OPG others be kicking millions each year into more than just the fish?
- if no StA would streams that are worth saving, be getting attention?
- if no StA would classrooms be learning about the importance of cold water systems?
- if no StA would streams that are benefitting from tons of media attn, be seeing CTV, City, plus tons more out on stocking days, tree planting days, when Chinnies are hand bombed more

Fact of the matter is, some streams that are in a lot of trouble given urban sprawl, and it's now ramping up as the beast crawls East, are getting attention.

Attention and more, no one cared enough about for the last 30 years. What's that worth? That's something many don't seem to want to add to the "balance sheet", talk about, when they look at just one part of it. Everyone has an agenda, including those who champion Pacific, steelhead, and or Rivers that aren't lake O tribs.

and something none seem to want to answer. If the plug is pulled on the StA, what will happen? To the money to the media attention, to the public awareness, to kids in classrooms, to more, the the streams, whose head waters are the Oak Ridges Morraine.

lose those streams, and few fish of any species will call them home. People have had 30+ years and until StA came along there was jack being done, let alone the LCBO and more....

do you beleive in coincidence?

JBen,

Chronzy had a big diatribe on that a few years back when he still had his fishing show. He made note of the fact that the Americans have been quite successful with the stocking program, but Ontario hasn't. He suggested that maybe Ontario should consult the powers that be in Michigan to determine what they can do differently. Lake Superior State University in Sault Ste. Marie Michigan has been studying the Atlantic Salmon for some and even have un underwater camera in the St. Mary's River. They have a viable run in the St. Mary's River along with an open season and a possession limit of 1. This may not seem like much, but the St. Mary's River below the compensating works is infested with lamprey.


His conclusion was that the people doing the stocking in Lake Ontario should talk to the people in Michigan to determine what the Lake Ontario group are doing wrong or quit trying altogether. He just might have been on to something.


You can throw all the money you want at a problem, but it is how that money is used that makes the difference. Look no further than our current provincial government.


Roe+

Roe,
Im not taking a firm stance one way or the other.

Theres more to the story, than simply Atlantics, or Steelhead or Pacifics. Basically Roe, all Darryl cares about is the stocking/hatchery space its taking up (good points i might add). And he does have a warm place in heart for the hatcheries/programs (or lack in grey bruce).

Theres more to weigh, when doing a "cost analysis" than simply the fry.
Have you looked east in the last 10 years? The urban sprawl? You know theres airport coming right? on top of the tens of thousands of people just in (last 10 yrs), and coming in? Theres really no where else for the city to grow.

Tell me, how much attention was directed that way in the past 20? Jack squat.

Today?
I don't believe in coincidence.

Lose those streams, and few fish of any species will use them. Pull the plug on StA and will the LCBO, OPG and others keeping handing over millions? What about the public awareness? The class rooms of kids planting trees, raising fry? More? Aka whats the real cost all told.

I'm not talking about losing the funds, I'm referring to making better use of them. I seethe urban sprawl you're talking about every time I go to the cottage. Do you think it's any different than the Credit River or Bronte Creek as well as the streams/rivers in Niagara? I live 5 minutes from the Credit River, north of here, the City of Brampton is rapidly expanding towards the Credit River. It already flows through what is basically the centre of Mississauga.

Chronzy actually went further than that criticizing the methods used to plant and imprint fish vs. the way is ways done when he was involved in the Georgian Bay stocking program. One of his main criticisms has been the release of fry off the Lake Ontario break walls as apposed to planting them further upstream where they can imprint. They get a good return of Atlantics in the St. Mary's River vs. what they are seeing in Lake Ontario. Why the difference? What is being done to correct it?

There are a number of issues at play here.

Roe+

This isn't the main aspect of this discussion now but since it is in the title… How is this related to the Fishin' Canada show?

Im guessing various stakeholders didn't want to have a sit down.

Roe. There are those that want to see the plug pulled, thier arguememt is simply poor, bad, brutal returns. Fair enough.

Understand when you get what you want, you can kiss a lot more goodbye. You might regret it.
Somethings are very hard to weigh. Better use of funds? Well first off, a lot of the funds are corporate. So um...what's the problem? When was the last time a company or 3 or 4 handed over millions? But more so, in this day and age when the MNRs budget is going in the wrong direction, what price are you willing to put on all the spin off benefits it's generated...kids in classrooms, media? Kids who tomorrow might be the ones that......More.

theres more to consider than simply the hatcheries and stocking, and the pure numbers of returns

JBen,

I think you're misunderstanding me, I'm not advocating pulling the plug, what I'm trying to say is something is wrong with how they are doing this and somebody should sit down and take a close look at what their doing and try to see how that differs from other more successful programs. If you're going to spend all of that money, get some bang for your buck, otherwise in time your stakeholders/financiers will lose interest, move on to more successful endeavors and the stocking program will die. I don't think that is in anyone's best interest

Roe+

First of stocking any type of fish where there is successful spawning is detrimental to the so called wild fish , it has been proven many times that when you combine wild fish and hatchery fish you bring the genetics down . The Ganaraska gets no stocking of atlantics and i have seen fish caught that are close to 8lbs from that river so where do they come from, having these fish grow up in a class room is a publicity stunt, does it work sure does thats all my daughter talks about. As far as the river getting cleaned up from the money well the CA are supposed to manage that and they are now doing a much better job of that especially the GRCA . The only way to make this work is to imprint them at the stream from eggs, putting them in the river at different sizes does not work. In my opinion and documented for instance the chinooks and cohos are successful spawners where average is 60% wild and in cobourg and port hope nearly 100 % are wild, in-fact it is so successful the mnr is no longer going to clip the hatcher fish as it shows that there program is not working, next time your out in the lake fishing,check every fish you catch see if it clipped because the program has lived its life and people are making good money raising fish for the governement and want the program to continue . Its time the money be taken out of raising fish and spent on protecting the fish we have now (law enforcement )

Fellas,

It has been touched on here, but not put plainly. I was not in favour of the atlantic stocking programs. For as long as I can remember we have been getting little to no return. BUT, and here is the big BUT. Steelhead are doing very well. It is a lot easier for big corps to jump on board with a "Save the Majestic and Native Atlantic" program, than it is for them to get on board with a bunch of introduced species like steelhead and pacifics. Our streams are cleaner, they are showing promising returns of naturals and overall we have a pretty stable fishery. You can thank the atlantic salmon for a portion of that, and you can thank all the corporations that have donated money, and all of the volunteers that have expended their time! So we're not seeing a strong return of Atlantics?? SO WHAT, most other species are thriving in part due to the efforts expended on behalf of the Atlantics. Thats OK in my books! And if you think the conservation organizations don't realize this, your kidding yourself! They are spending the cash knowing full well the other species are benefiting, and they realize they wouldn't stand a tinkers chance in hell of getting the same amount of funding for introduced species. You can count me as a new supporter of the Atlantic Salmon rehabilitation efforts!

so ruducing the number of trout over coburg creek to give the Atlantic's a better chance is good for the trout fishery, the mnr should be blasted for allowing it

I think Roe, it's the failing of the net. It's very hard sometimes to convey things adequately.

There are people who would like to pull the plug. As with any bath tub, when you pull the plug, everything goes. I suspect that's really what's at risk here. To me we need to weigh everything, including the fact many rivers are experiencing great runs of Steelhead where before they were dwindling, and good returns of Pacifics that are spawning and reproducing..

sometimes its "worth" paying a celebrity to....
and the facts are prior to it,
/crickets

cheers
J

we are experiencing great runs of rainbows because of the reduced number of trout kept (limit 2 for 5 years now on bank fishermen and now lake fishermen) also it has also to due with the wet springs and summers we had 4 and 5 years ago, also our trout run is not that great we have very few 6,7,and 8 year old trout returning 2 bad years and we are right back to square one on trout. we are getting very high return rates of 4 and 5 year olds.... but a collapse is immanent (tons of data to back this up as well )

JBen,

My ex's parents lived in Bomanville in the late80's prior to moving to Peterborough just before we were married. I use to fish Bomanville, Wilmot and Graham creeks with my ex FIL. There were signs then on Wilmot Creek showing pictures of atlantic salmon smolt with a warning to release them if caught. Fast forward 25 years - where are the salmon? I know it was the MNR doing the stocking back then and OFAH has their hands in it now, but is it even viable with the methods they've been employing. I remember the hoopla when it was announced they were bringing atlantic salmon back to Lake Ontario.

Please refer to the attached link for OFAH's website http://www.bringbackthesalmon.ca/?page_id=109 showing there partners. Now obviously a few of these are corporate sponsors. While corporate sponsors undoubtedly receive a tax credit for this, they a real so looking for good PR. You work in the financial sector, how long do you think the corporate sector will keep handing out money if there are no positive results?


This is my point, they have a large group of players on their team along with funding and I suspect a limited time to get positive results. Very little in the way of positive results have come thus far. It's time to re-evaluate the program;

1. Why aren't the stocking programs working here when they work elsewhere?
2. Are they using the proper strain or is there a better strain of fish available?
3. What about habitat, food source and competition with other species?

When Chronzy spoke on this he didn't condemn it, he gave reasons.

Here's a link to the LSSU fishcam http://www.lssu.edu/arl/fishcam.php It's not operating now, but will be in the spring.

Roe+

I've read his reports and findings a few times Roe. I think after our last bout he has has eased a little from pulling the plug to maybe better utilization of hatchery space. Don't know, after numerous insults thrown my way, including insinuations that I'm an OFAH employee (on their payroll), trying to undermine me or merit of my points, which is simply weigh everything. I've given up trying to get him to see that the program is doing far more than just stocking fry. His mind is or was closed.

with the MNRs budget going in the wrong direction, we are going to need to find new ways of getting things, things done. All the classrooms full of kids learning about cold water streams, their importance to the entire region. All the tens of thousands hearing/learning about just how important they are. They are tomorrows anglers, conservationist, and tomorrow's voters.

Bowmanville dam.
took a lot of manpower and effort to have that redone. Without it, the Pacifics were having trouble getting upstream. Thousands, stuck below the dam, every year. My understanding is it cost $500k and took a lot of grassroots, both financial and sweat. A lot of media attention, a lot.

Grassroots, that prior to StA was non existent.< hard truth, people don't care. The only successful grassroots is CRAA. Funny anytime I saw media coverage of the hand bombing efforts at Bowmanville, there were dozens of people. Interest and attention that prior to StA, was utterly non existent.

They stocked Browns in Duffins this year for the first time in...
more

If and when the funds dry up, or interest runs dry, then pull the plug or change gears. For now Steelhead seem to be thriving, and Pacifics are reproducing. Odd Darryl can talk about how great the returns are on the Suageen in one breath, then go on a crusade that the As are taking all the limited hatchery space.

I think Darryl Knows his fishing and what should be done. We should go back to the bows and Chinooks and cohos. The atlantics are a waste of time other than the cleaning up of the creeks and rivers. If you ever fished the L Huron tourneys in the glory days You Know what I mean. Lots of anglers, people at the docks just to see the fish come in. It was fantastic. Sure the atlantics and browns look nice, Lakers not so much but bring on the pacifics. They survive.

Hmm, last I checked the LHFC is screaming for support, new members, the "old boys" are getting old and the young blood? Not so much.

In fact Darryl is trying hard to get renew interest, get guys to contribute $$ and sweat. So when all us old guys die off, who is going to be left? Whose going to carry the torch? If the MNRs fortunes are ever going to reverse, pray tell who is going to do it? Facts are, we all know the MNR doesn't even have the money to properly staff COs, let alone everything else we might want to see getting some loving.


Because the same old same old, hasnt and isnt working (your way). One only need look at the past 20 years. Both in terms of those who love to use the resources giving back, and those on the horizon. And last I looked at a map theres more than Georgian Bay to think about.

I personally know a number of kids who go there and learn about...every year, dozens of classrooms.
http://trca.on.ca/school-programs/fa...-field-centre/

My own girls have stocked Atlantics, planted trees. Have yours?
http://trca.on.ca/the-living-city/wa...nitiatives.dot

Brown Trout?
http://www.durhamregion.com/communit...w-brown-trout/

Classrooms rearing Atlantics?
Lots.

Long story short.
My gut tells me forest for the trees, theres looking beyond "today" and being short sighted and wondering what things might look like in 10-15 years if we dont get more grassroots, more media to various issues, more "public awareness".

I guess what I'm saying JBen is success breads success. Look at the wild turkey restoration. 100 years ago the wild turkeys became extinct in Ontario. Through the work of OFAH and others this became very successful and their range is continually spreading. People jumped on the bandwagon even if only for a short time and got involved. Business sprung up, guiding, selling equipment etc. The government saw money coming in from taxes and license fees, but as always the Liberals blew it on other things. The provincial doesn't want to give any money to the MNR for hunting and fishing, they just want to pull money out. Yes, they said there would be a separate account for licensing revenues earmarked for the MNR, but is this really the case? Are they skimming off of it? I've read in the past this pot of revenues is not enough to cover the costs. My response is; what about the taxes generated by outfitters in the form of income tax and sales taxes? Was the Bearwise program paid for out of general revenues or out of licensing fees? I don't trust the Liberals creative accounting, we've seen too much of it in the past. Sorry for drifting off topic, but it's time we as hunters and fishermen united and called our provincial government to task the same as we did the federal government over the long gun registration. United we represent a formidable voting block.

Back to the topic. If memory serves me correct the main topic is atlantic salmon restoration, not pacifics or steelhead. They educational programs etc. are good, but to get more interest they need to show some success. Admittedly, I'm not upon the habitat they require or how it affects the other species sharing it. In the St. Mary's River, they get atlantics, Chinooks pink salmon and browns (browns according to a fishing map I have). I did not hear of cohos or steelhead while I was up there. The Chinooks and pinks will run in the tributaries up there. The atlantics and Chinooks run in the St. Mary's. The atlantics run in August, the Chinooks in September. These fish seem to be able to co-habitate the same environment. The St. Mary's however is a large fast flowing river, not necessarily comparable to the Niagara River, but it does flow between 2 great lakes. Here's a few shots of the St. Mary's River where the atlantics are caught and stocked.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...M/P1000238.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...M/P1000240.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...M/P1000241.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...M/P1000247.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...M/P1000246.jpg

Anything worth doing is worth doing right. JBen, please excuse the photography my equipment and expertise is not nearly what yours is.

Roe+

Lol, please Roe (re pics..any pics are good pics) :)

Somewhat off topic, yes, but how much? And thats my primary concern, for some the primary concern is A, or S or C and the "returns". Which btw I will not argue, I quite agree. I don't even understand why
~No moratorium. Doesnt make a lot of sense to me to spend a lot of $$ and man hours doing this and more, then publicising a number of the prime locations...Might as well hang a sign saying "Atlantics and Brookies" for lunch.

~Airport lands. Some area's are within the land expropiated for that, and well, now we know its coming.

Im not sure how to word it. Other than to say "we" need to do things differently, get more bang for the few table scraps thrown our way (MNR), on that I quite agree.The same old, same old, hasn't and isn't "working".

But at the same time, having tried to a TU chapter, having spent time doing A or B. KNowing the amount of effort the Chronzeys put into things, and those with Metro East and John K with CRAA.

What price do we attach to all the education, getting kids involved, classrooms, boyscouts...All the media attention and much more.
I look at the Bowmanville dam effort (mostly grassroots)....and I wonder how much credit StA deserves.

Im not trying to convince anyone its "worth" it, or its not "worth it". Just put all the cards on the table, there's a lot more than whats on the surface (imo), including, the MNR, the Province, and the trend of the past 20 years.

J

Agreed

Roe+

The water quality issue is big!!! If the StA has helped that, that is a big win!! I think the biggest problem for them is bad water and over development and not the stocking, but yes restoring cold water habitat benifits all species... There have been lots caught, but not good bang for buck compared to other species...

As for the OP scugog would be a great place to stock walleye in big numbers and would pay off well as an investment if overfishing is the cause of low eyes! Sometimes low fish populations are not caused by over harvesting, but bad spawning grounds, predation, invasives etc and stocking doesn't always help...