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They do an interesting test with different breeds and not one of them did a whole lot other than barking when an intruder came into their home, to the surprise of their owners. The GSD was the most notable, however I've always understood that without extensive ongoing training no dog will really be a protection dog.
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/05/b...s-to-the-test/
The hair on Maddy's back from the top of her head all the way down to the tip of her tail will go up and she will let out a mean howl, that's it.
Mine will run up to them.. And brush herself against their hand until they pet her
Mine will protect me but not sure about the house. Both responded in protection mode during American Temperament Test and once when police arrived at night with news they had to be put behind gate where they continued to posture and growl.
Husband has office at home and patients come and go. I'm pretty sure that if someone came in they would show them to the treat jar and start doing tricks in an effort to be fed. Typical Rhodesians.
In my teens we adopted a stray shepherd/husky cross that showed up on the doorstep one day. He had been abused pretty badly and it was a long time before he wouldn't cower when you made sudden moves around him. Tossed a stick shortly after he showed up to see if he would fetch and he flipped over on his back yelping and peeing. Pretty evident that he'd been beaten with a stick and he had a strong dislike for people of a certain ethnicity. Anyway he couldn't decide whether he was more loyal to my Dad or me. Me being a teenager and wanting to show the old man up I was always trying to wrestle with him and the poor dog didn’t know who to defend. He'd join in and nibble on me for a bit then go after Dad. I have no doubt that that dog would have gone postal on anyone that came after any of us.
Sorta like with people....lots of bluster but when face to face, without special training most will cave quickly and hid under their bed and cry till it's over .LOL...
I had a GSD and a Malinois, both protection trained. The malinois in particular would approach his job with ears forward and tails straight up, never hackles up, that is usually a sign of fear not aggression, he could go out on the field and bite a "bad guy" I could tell him out and say "done" and the bad guy could pet him like they where friends. This training took 2 years of hard work and a dog with the right nerve. Most dogs don't have it and my lab certainly doesn't. I'm just happy when he barks at the door. Having a protection trained dog is a huge responsibility that quite a few people would have a hard time handling. A dog barking with hackles up and snarling and lunging is more often then not afraid and not protective. I used to put on the bite suit as well and it is very easy to scare off an untrained dog without the right nerve. In saying that you just never know which one will nail you when you turn your back, but that is a different behaviour all together. I did dog sports that included protection for many years before I got my first hunting dog and have had the scars and bruises to show for it.
Very few dogs will/do.
Of all the dogs I've ever owned, one I would say is a "maybe". She was my Basenji, great personalty, sweet, very protective, but if push ever did come to shove, can't say yes with any confidence. My retired grey hound yes, he would….did…..We tried to train the aggression out of him. We failed.
M_P.
My GF rescued a walker hound mix last winter, he to was abused badly before he ended up in the rescue. Displayed the same kind of things, and worse. Its taken a long time for him to learn to trust again, in fact it was just a couple weeks ago, he finally got over feeling comfortable enough to lie down on a couch beside either of us. He'd sit beside us after awhile, but it took a year to get him to lie down, rest his head on our lap. He still reacts to sudden movements, and other things. Luckily one thing we haven't had to deal with/get him over is fear aggression.
Aggression and protection are not the same thing. Aggression usually turns into uncontrolled fear biting and is most often interpreted as protection. It gets many dog owners into trouble.
Thats my point rcoulas. But its a very fine line, because strangers even friends/family but "strangers" to them coming into the house etc,etc can easily trigger the fear aggression.
Proper protection training yields a steady animal without the fear issues. Most people don't realize the can of worms that is opened up when you start protection training a dog. If it is done wrong, and I have see this many times it eventually ends in disaster and the dog will suffer most in the end. I do realize that there are many dogs with fear/ aggression issues with no training and it usually stems from poor or no socialization at the correct period in life.
Not disputing that :) In essence we are saying the same things.
Greyhounds for example, as a breed are "typically", 80 pound couch potatoes. I worked with him for quite some time, but his fear aggression was "strong". Had to pull him off my ex FIL after my ex FIL made the mistake of giving my at the time 5 year old daughter a hug.
"protection"?
Had anyone broken into my house, I wouldn't want to be that person.
For "true" protection, very few dogs will/do, but don't discount "fear aggression". Your entering their space, their "home", whatever it is that breaks their "comfort" level threshold. We humans when pushed far enough will protect ourselves out of fear to.
Question was will dogs protect people/proprty/personal space.
Some will.
Im not arguing disputing, Im trying to say the say things. Its a very fine line between protection/agression/fear aggression.
OK but re read you own post protecting you or your property is not the same as biting because you are scared and backed into a corner, it is fighting for your own life. I disagree also with the fine line between the 2 it is far from a fine line. Non of my dogs would flip to fear biting. You will never be able to train a dog that's fear full to have good nerve either. We are saying some of the same things its the fine line wording I don't agree with.
If trained for protection, do you believe the dog may be able to take on a GHO? LMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by JBen
Sorry JBen, I couldn't resist. I'm still laughing about how long that owl thread went on for...lololol
If a dog does display or has "fear aggression" and numerous things can trigger it. In some it's not so bad and they won't do much more than raise hackles/bare teeth, in some they will bite. If you come into my home per the topic of the thread, and the dog feels threatened, is it not "protecting" me...?? Was my GH not protecting my daughter? I guarantee you if you came into my home and raised your hand as though to wave at my girls. He'd have gone after you. In the end we had to admit we had to do what we had to do.
its a fine line.thats all I'm saying :)
i totally agree with you that not recognizing the signs/differences can land many people in hot water and sadly it's the dogs that usually pay the price.
I had one decades ago that had been professionally trained, extensively used then pulled after years of service due to being "indiscriminately vicious," per his service record.
He was with me 24/7 and excellent in every way with the exception that he was always in the hot standby mode unless I told him different. He was a significant responsibility when in the general public or with visitors.
Today the lab and the Shih - poo are aggressive up to and until a dog bisquit or a piece of bacon appears.
Lol Lastoh..Cant blame you, I had similar thoughts :) Dog behavior is dog behavior….Sadly me to :( There was utterly no need.
Fear aggression is as rcoulas pointed out and rightly so, something people almost always mistake as a dog being protective.
Problem is, in a human we'd call it a "disorder" and when its bad enough as it was with the GH we rescued it's unpredictable.
I worked with him and with professionals to try and break it down. It was bad enough he was muzzled most of the time, anytime we'd have company, a hug, waving at the door, even standing over one of my girls.
And sadly its almost always the dogs that pay the price if/when they finally do bite.
You definitely don't want to own a fear biter. A fear biter is basically a tragedy waiting to happen, either for some kid or for the dog itself. Besides which, a fearful dog is a useless dog for just about any purpose you'd want to train a dog to.
As for a trained protection dog ... I would say that most people don't want one, even if they think they do.
Yes, unfortunately there's no working with a fear biter. It's part of their temperament and a product of bad breeding.
I agree. I know someone who has a fearful dog. The pooch is so bad you can't walk the dog in parks etc. She says the other dog owners in the park know her dog by name.....
Hard to enjoy a dog like that.
That would be another test they should do. Have an intruder come in when you're home with pooch. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the results were a little different.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. in TO
Don't think the labs would but we had a long legged jack russel as kids. If anyone raised a hand to my mom that dog had him. My mom was a character and one day she and a friend of my brother's got in a tomato fight. He ran in the house and locked the door. My brother had to go in through a basement window, Patches had his friend cornered on the kitchen table and wouldn't let him down. That
dog fought with anything on four legs and when we didn't heed don't tease the dog we all got bit at least once. He lived to be 20.
Its nice to see there are a good number of people here that do understand dog behavior and why it happens. Sadly I met too many when I was working with dogs that did bite work that didn't. And that is scary!
Yup my Springer is very protective to the point he will likely help you load my gear .;) . He makes noise if someone or something is out and about though and he is inside . Mean SOB he is cause he's not much for giving kisses but sure likes to be petted . :D
TD
All true.
Before I knew better , I bought a GSP from a pet store. She had spent 4 + months in the window/crate - had never seen the outdoors. Did my best, but had to put her down at age 3. I figure I gave her 2 1/2 years of the great out of doors that she would never have had.
defend?.. not the setters. Not bred for that. The JRT though would put up a heck of a fight. :)
I grew up with a female Chow. She wasn't very big - maybe 55 lbs but she was a fierce guard dog.
Our 2 Irish Setters (1 male, 1 female) and our girl Bouvier were completely useless as guard dogs. The Male setter (110 lbs) might have scared off a burglar by sticking his nose in the thief's crotch, the female setter (90 lbs) would have checked him out to see if he had cookies and would have brought her leash to him to see if he wanted to take her "walkies". The girl Bouvier (100 lbs) would have rolled over on her back in case he wanted to rub her belly.
I have a 22 pound Bichon at home that I'm still trying to figure out after 10 years. If women and children visit he is docile as a lamb but if
you are a man he will challenge and disallow entry onto the property until he is reassured by my commands and body language that all is well. It can be very embarrassing at times greeting people.
However, the way I look at it is this. Dogs are a tool and service animal. I appreciate and understand their warnings but as such I should be ultimately the only one responsible to take action if a perceived threat is warranted or not. I do not trust an animal to take on that responsibility and injuring someone by accident. In my opinion it is best that they remain docile if they are large in nature with potential to inflict severe damage over and above a nip on the pant leg.
Our first two labs were very protective of their stuff -- their house, their people, etc. When we would go fishing, we'd tie up and go for lunch and leave the one dog in the boat to watch the gear. We'd choose a restaurant with a patio that overlooked the water so we could watch the boat. It was interesting to see people walk down by the water's edge, and when they got close to our boat they'd leave a wide birth between them and the boat. She took her job seriously: she wouldn't budge, she would be in a down, but made it clear (with what was probably a low growl) that the gear was hers to be protected.
The other one to watch was, believe it or not, my cat. I was horsing around with the boy dog the one day, play wrestling, and out of nowhere the cat jumped on him and bit him. I mentioned it to my dad, so we tested the theory -- he playfully grabbed me around the neck and shoulders and instructed me to yell out like I was being beaten. Sure enough, the cat ran over, jumped on my dad and bit him. Attack cat Tubby, he was a bada$s.
My Brittany would love any intruder to death, probably lick him into a coma. And then jump into the getaway car and ride shotgun. what he did do though which kind of surprised me is fend off a doberman that was twice his size. My young daughter was walking through a local park with the dog when a doberman came flying out of one of the connecting yards all snarly and barking at my daughter. The Brittany wouldn't let it near her and stayed between her and the doberman and fended him off until the owner came running to break it up. Little bugger could have been killed but he never backed down. I really think he realized my daughter was in danger and he stepped up.
My Pudelpointer will physically place himself between my kids and anyone that comes onto our property, and let out a deep, low growl. Nobody has been bold enough to see if he'd escalate it. My shorthair won't let anyone in the door unless we are there.
When other dogs show up, our Golden won't even protect his food dish. That's the way we like it, but it sure looks funny when the chickens are chasing him out on the lawn.....
After the barking and incessant licking I think my two would probably give the intruder a tour and offer them a beer.
After we had to put down the Shepherd / husky cross we had another Shepherd cross show up. Funny thing about both dogs, they were strays that sort of adopted us, were both shepherd cross and both had docked tails. Anyway, the parents house was broken into and the thieves let the little bugger out of his crate and stole that along with a pile of other stuff. Mom came home to the rear door kicked in and the dumb dog running around. We joke that the dog showed them where everything was.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahadley
What a great laugh reading some of the posts!! So true too... Thinking back on my dogs... Twenty years ago, I had a mini poodle mix that would bark when someone came to the door and bullied Dobermans in the park. She had balls of steel but she was way too small to do much more. She would have probably gone and settled down on the porch while a thief cleaned the place out. My American PB Terrier was a big, muscular 90 lbs of marshmallow love. If he felt someone was a threat, he would place himself between you and the other person or dog but nothing more. He was like a rock that way and strangers were too scared by the look of him to even try anything. I only ever heard him growl once and that was at a dog that had made an initial aggressive move. The confrontation did not last. Sometimes, if he sensed a welcome visitor was intimidated by him, he would sit right next to the person (if they were on the couch) and ever so slowly start to lean onto the person until he got close enough to lick them on the face! The person would be too scared to move a muscle when the dog sat next to them and would just about have a heart attack when the dog suddenly slathered them with a big, wet kiss! I guess you had to be there but it was a laugh every time... The rest of my dogs have mostly been bum-wagging greeters -- although they can be so enthusiastic about a visitor that it is possible the person may not get past their loving and in through the door! I am convinced my current Brittany would eagerly help them carry stuff out!
I think the perspective proposed is not entirely correct. As long as you expect them to defend YOUR property, as it has been demonstrated, leaves room for questioning. In my case, my dog is learning to look after HIS property. Only then will you get the best protection he will be capable of delivering. My 6mths old, would bark as soon as he detects any movement around the house - including frost quakes. I know my wife is protected as he is very aware of what is going on around him. Mind you, the level of protection I expect from him so far is to bark as loud as possible. I would not encourage him to bite people or other dogs unless really necessary, and we haven't been exposed to that yet.