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What the heck is with all the advertising hype over how fast some autoloaders cycle. I understand the reliability associated with the hype, but who the heck shoots that rapidly when in a hunting or clays situation anyway??? Although while hunting public land this past fall it sounded like they were filming those very commercials just up river from where I was, lol.
Humans will always be the have to have the faster, bigger, smarter, better than you people. If I have the faster gun I'm going to get more ducks than you faster. This would make me a better hunter, no? Or does this just raise the cost of the auto loader because of the research and technology.
What us fast, years ago Win. Arms , had an add where they showed one of their men shooting a pump action mdle 12 shot gun against another with a semi auto , guess who was faster , the man with the pump.
I think the main reason is that a mdle. 12 can be slam fired .
But what is speed anyway are you going to fire away at any game just as fast as you can pull/jerk the trigger ? no what most will do is take carefully aimed shots and squeeze the trigger so they don't pull the shot off target .
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Only if you can swing as fast as your gun can cycle....Quote:
Originally Posted by outback
Per what Jaycee said, a good shooter with a pump can shoot as fast as you need to shoot, IMO. I can miss a fleeing grouse three times before it gets out of range. This is the voice of experience. :)
The reality is the gun will still be recoiling and off target while the action cycles. They would be better off improving trigger pulls than worrying about cycle time. Most repeating shotguns have terrible triggers.
My old Belgian made Browning A5 (Magnum 20) is so much slower than the more modern gas operated shotguns but even with the old "shuffle, shuffle" of the A5 I've been ready for a 2nd shot on a covey of Huns or a bounding snowshoe.
It's fun to try and shot three shells off as fast as you can when messing around on clays or in the back yard but it has no real benefit while hunting or serious target shooting
Me too.......
I can miss a fleeing grouse three times before it gets out of range. This is the voice of experience. :)[/QUOTE]
In an hunting situation it offers no advantage. Hell, a pump is all thats needed. For trick shooting, sure. See Tom Knapp for example.
I shot single shotguns for so long, I still forget there are two more shells for a faction of a second. Interestingly that fraction of a second seems to be all it takes for me to pick up and lead two more birds..
Tom Knapp is a prime example of fast, hickup free semi operations. He use to shoot for benelli, now I believe he is with CZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
In regards to the typical hunting situation "fast" is not as important as dependable/issue free. I have some friends who shoot various brands of guns and the inconsistency/jams with their gun would drive me nuts. Theres a place in my heart for all manufacturers and they all have their specialties, but for autos Benelli or newer Franchi's always catch my eye.
Pretty sure Tom Knapp died last year. And the reality is the brand he chose to use was whoever paid him better. He was the king and could do stuff that was amazing regardless of brand. It was also common knowledge that his guns were heavily tuned not off the rack guns. Trigger lock time is far more important than cycling speed. Those guys who specialize in shooting sports like clays or trap and use high end guns like Kreghoff and Perazzi have triggers tuned and in many cases have 1or2 replacement triggers ready to go. Just like in centerfires a crisp trigger with fast lock time is a game changer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus86
Yes Tom Knapp did die on April 26 of last year at age 62 from pulmonary fibrosis , he was also known for his ability with a pump action shot gun in trick shooting demonstrations.
Maybe it's about the speed and smoothness of the complete cycle which keeps the shooter on target or at least reduces the time to return to target, not necessarily the raw speed of shot spacing.
The measurable benefit can only be detected by accountants.
I shoot 3-gun comps in the US.
The top tier shooters can certainly take advantage of guns that cycle faster than the next guys...
My point exactly. Doesn't much matter the mechanical speed of the trigger assembly if time on target is interrupted and with longer duration by mechanical movement of the action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaoler
I think those 3 gun competitions are timed events with targets mostly stationary right? If that's the case then the gun requirements for that shooting isn't comparable to a high speed target like a wood duck or clay pigeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
his is a classic from a few years back. A little hoakey but the guy could shoot.
http://youtu.be/v2Fsr2MOE_4
Yes, 3-gun is a timed sport. There are moving targets...Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
What I'm saying is these guys shoot so fast or move from target to target so quickly that a slower cycling bolt "could" mean a slower time for them.
In other words if a shooter has to wait for his bolt to cycle when he's already on the next target... and wants to move to the next and the next one... Well, It's the gun slowing him down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP8cZ-xqnZI
I can see the logic in that but my guess is any high level shooter in those games spends quite a bit of money on tuning triggers. I think that has more value than most other mods in most firearms. Watching that youtube video I would think a shooter's physical conditioning and speed running from station to station would make far more difference than cycle time of an action. The lock time on a trigger isn't about speeding up the second shot it's about having the shot go off cleaner on target. If you miss it doesn't matter how fast you spray lead.
To return to target after a shot(for subsequent shots), a faster action cycling would result in a faster recovery time thus a faster second shot on the target, other things being equal. On a multi shot target, one can be complete faster and moving to engage the next target.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
However, how fast does an action really have to be? I don't think I can cycle my finger faster than the standard action many times anyway.
'Plenty of fat guys in 3-gun... LoLQuote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Well I'm talking the top tier shooters in the game... Of which I am not one of.. LoLQuote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
Whether it's realy making a measurable difference or not, these guys "think" it gives them an edge. They'll lighten bolt carriers, customize springs and do whatever they can to shave a 1000ths of a second off their time...
I have modified my 3-gun gear to a certain extent, but triggers, springs etc remain pretty much stock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaoler
But they won't lay off the Doritos?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaoler
In any case, what happens in highly formalized competitive shooting situations doesn't have a lot of bearing on duck hunting. If you need a faster action so you can take three shots at the same duck, it ain't your autoloader that's the problem. ;)
As I said before, I can miss the same bird three times with a pump before it gets out of range.
I have never seen someone shoot a triple with a pump before but have seen and shot a few 3x with a semi.
Your PM box is full. Can't send you a PMQuote:
Originally Posted by terrierman41