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I've watched videos where one shot has dropped game. This is obviously the shot everyone wants to make. In other videos I've watched either big game or yotes and the animals did not drop on one shot. In some, the coyote spins for a period of time and you can hear awful noises. In others, I see deer walk 50 yards and fall. I'm sure some skeptics would say any shot is inhumane. What shot would be considered inhumane? In your opinion.
This is a question that can pit hunters against each other.... Can't be measured in seconds or yards or location or organ etc, etc. I will er on the side of caution and say if you find your animal and it is not wasted, it was "humane"...
The idea that animals drop on the spot with a well-placed shot is a misconception. I've shot plenty of deer through the heart and lungs, perfectly humane kill shots, that have run at least 100 yards. You can hit a moose again and again in the boiler room before he realizes that he's walking dead and falls over. Animals that drop on the spot are sometimes spine or high-shoulder hits that might look better to someone watching but may actually result in the animal taking longer to expire.
The flopping, kicking, etc., that happen afterward are just part of what happens. Think of a chicken with it's head cut off.
Hc. Yeah I'm not trying to cause grief between each other. Just want to get some thoughts. Please don't fight.
Gw. Good points.
Agree with this post...............but will also add to I personally would dub a "humane" as a shot in which placement was attempted at a vital area to achieve a faster death. Its defenetely a difficult question to answer as we have all taken what we believed to be ethical and humane kill shots and had something happen to which you have missed that core area just slightly. No hunter likes to see an animal suffer so I would hope that any shot taken by a hunter should be a humane one, but less face it things happen!!!!
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Originally Posted by HuntCamp'r
X2. After all my years hunting,I can count on one hand the number of one-shot kills. To me,as long as you do everything possible to ensure the animal is dispatched quickly,then,we've completed a "clean kill".Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
If the shot was within your capability and you intended to kill the animal cleanly, then that's all you can control.
You need to realize that those "lightning bolt" shots aren't normal. First of all they are usually done for the camera and not in respect of the game. What most of those shots are is shots to the spine or shoulders. Quite often with more rifle than needed like .300 mags for example with light bullets. Sure the deer just crushes on the spot but what they don't show is what the carcass looks like when you skin it. Shots like that look great on camera but many times turn the meat into bloodshot jello. People watch too many hunting shows.
Agree with Welsh.
Also,
The humane shot starts before you even pull the trigger on an animal. You've taken the time to ensure that you can shoot with some accuracy and consistency, that the optics, or sights you choose are adjusted properly, and that you aren't just heading out and spraying lead everywhere hoping to connect.
You know where the vitals are and the area you should be placing your shot on the game you are hunting.
Well said. Ditto.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
I have put a 12 ga slug through both lungs and the heart and recovered the deer 150 yds away. Saw a deer that was dropped in his tracks with a cross bow bolt by a new hunter. Nicked the liver and broke the spine. IMO the shot gun shot was more humane. The guy that dropped instantly laid there and bled for a quite a while.
As mentioned, the shot actually starts long before the trigger pull and "humane kills" depend on capability and intent when the trigger is pulled. There's not much else you can control.
Proper preperation prevents poor performance
A humane shot is a well planned, timed shot using equipment that matches the needs of the game. Its the ability to cool down your excitement/emotion, think with a clear head, place your aim appropriately, and pull the trigger with confidence.
Great responses. Thanks
Not every shot is going to have the animal fall dead in it's tracks... That's just the way it is. And whether you are watching the coyote spin or the goose flapping, or the deer kicking or listening to the bear moan.... maybe it's that feeling in your gut, at that moment in time, that makes you humane.... and not the "shot"??
I dont see the points of these threads. they go 7-8 pages deep of everyone arguing about whats right and wrong but come hunting season and your out in the bush or field your idea of ideal, humane etc change.
An example is a guy who says neck shots are horrible etc etc and come hunting season he neck shoots a deer and he doesnt come on here saying that. unless somone is really unsure of what is legal, ethicle or humane i dont see the need for pointless ing online.
Hunter10, did you actually read the thread? Nobody here is arguing about neck shots.
Um.....We're still talking hunting right? :oQuote:
Originally Posted by mox72
But that leaves the question,,,, can you say that fast 5 times? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mox72
Same rules apply!!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by odm2
I see all kind of fish flopping around on the ice for the past four weeks and nobody seems to concern about it.... Funny eh??
But IMO an "ethical" shot is one that will kill an animal in the next few minutes. One that you won't make you wait few hours before retrieving your prey.
Distance the animal travels has nothing to do with the quality of the shot. The first deer I ever shot took precisely 0 steps after the first shot as it was a spine shot. Yet the deer was still plenty alive and required a head shot to finish it off.
Another deer I shot had nothing left of her heart and she ran almost 100m before expiring. She was stone dead within a very short time frame, but traveled relatively far.
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Originally Posted by Goosesniper
You can never get this shot it is pure luck I have included a copy and paste done on a study of buffalo makes for some pretty compelling results
NEW EVIDENCE
This epiphany came about a couple of years back when I was passing a pleasant afternoon in a bird-watching blind in the wilds of Namibia. A previous guest had obligingly left a few copies of a South African outdoor magazine and as I idly leafed through the pages my attention was arrested by an article on knockdown effect. It was not the same tired old stuff about ballistics and penetration, but the result of a controlled study carried out by professional veterinarians engaged in a buffalo culling operation.
Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals.
Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage. So what is the connection?
Their conclusion was that the bullets that killed instantly had struck just at the moment of the animal's heartbeat! The arteries to the brain, already carrying a full surge of blood pressure, received a mega-dose of additional pressure from the bullet's impact, thus creating a blood pressure overload and rupturing the vessels.
If this is the key to the "knockdown" mystery, it has answered a lot of previously unanswered questions. It's certainly the best explanation of knockdown I've heard yet, but it also poses a new quandary. How do we time a shot to hit on the beat? Let the debate begin.
Given a choice I'll pick a brain or neck/spine shot. There have been times when I have just not fired because I could not get that clear shot. When I have to put an old dog or wounded/injured animal down for someone else its always a brain shot. Instant lights out...
Yes i read it.. I am just noting that usually these type of controversial topics start out appropriate whether its neck shots or humaine kills it doesnt matter, these usually become a battle between 2 or 3 people after the 5th page and the original issue never gets the proper responses IMO
Well, you're probably right on that count Hunter10.
I thought it was the rule of the 6 p's....;) (If I remember correctly what the US Army engineer told me?)Quote:
Originally Posted by mox72
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. :thumbup:
I'd seriously not look forward to having to pursue and shoot an already shot cape buffalo the second time.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark270wsm
You guys are all missing one key obligation on your part.
You can sight your rifle in, ensure your rifle works, you can decide if you have a clean shot or not, but if you are undergunned then you haven't met the requirements.
Lots of animals are hit in the vitals but if your firearm or ammo isn't adequate and your animal can run far enough way that you lose a track, that's not a humane shot.
Lots of bears running around with one lung but there's a pile of unrecovered ones too.
I read that research a few years ago - it supports the theory of hydrostatic shock killing animals. Although the observations (assuming they were honest) of the bruised brains in the buffalo that dropped dead is interesting, I think the researchers took a huge leap in logic to assume that the bruised brain was caused by bullet shock + heartbeat at the same instant. I've read several other research articles that hydrostatic shock isn't a factor in lethality - which would contradict the buffalo study.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark270wsm
From my experience - the only way to guarantee a knockdown shot is a) CNS damage or b) mid to high shoulder shot.
I think there are also a number of variables between animals. The first deer I shot with a shotgun, I was sitting on a rock outcrop and hit her at 70 yds. with a Challenger slug. She went down instantly and then got backup. I missed the mark with my second shot, but that didn't matter as she walked 15 yds. up the trail and fell over dead. When we dressed her we found it was a double lung shot and her internal organs were floating in blood. Essentially 1 shot killed her.
This past season on opening day, I hit a doe with a 150 gr. Nosler out of my 270 at about 30 yds. She went 100-150yds. into the bush. I actually heard her fall. There was a very heavy blood trail and we tracked her to a spot under some evergreens. We found her with her back legs cocked ready to jump and a bullet entry point in her shoulder with a 1 1/2" exit wound in her upper rib cage on the opposite side. I got her in the lungs, but she had ran further than any deer I had ever shot.
Opening day 2012 @ 8:00 am, I shoot a doe in the shoulder from a similar distance. She runs 30 yds. and drops dead. Again I hit her in the lungs and there was a heavy blood trail. I was using the same type of round out of the same gun.
What's the difference?
In 2011, I spined a 6 pt buck that dropped on the spot and the same as Blasted Saber, I had to shoot a mercy shot because after 30 seconds the head popped up and it started crawling using only its front legs. I also shot a button buck that went about 40 yds. and died. Again with the 270.
Most of the deer I have shot have died within 30-40 yds. of where they were shot. Why was last year's different?
Roe+
Roe+ - I think it has to do with the animal's "state of mind" at the time they are shot. It's no more than a guess on my part, but their reaction seems almost based on what they were about to do. Their body is just carrying out what was programmed into the brain.
Examples: One deer I shot had just seen me, right before I pulled the trigger. He saw me raise the gun. I think he was gearing up to "flight mode" and that's exactly what happened after he was hit. I hit him at about 40 yards through the front shoulder with a 180 grain Nosler Partition from a 30-06 (quartering towards) and it exited the rear rib cage. He ran nearly 150 yards before he went down. I've had a similar experience with deer I've shot in front of dogs that we're already "in flight". Maybe the one you shot that went 150 yards had been "pushed" out to you.
On the other hand, when I've shot deer that were "relaxed" and had no idea I was there, they rarely ever go more than 30 or 40 yards before piling up.
I've only had a small handful of deer drop on the spot and it's usually a high shoulder shot. One was in the spine. That's not where I intended to hit either, it just worked out that way due to the circumstances.
Interesting thread, it had the potential to be pretty controversial. Instead, it gives the guys who are less experienced with shooting big game some idea of what to expect. It rarely happens like it does on TV.
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Originally Posted by GW11
GW nailed it. X2
GW, actually she walked out in front of me just before the push started, appeared completely relaxed, stopped walking and I shot her. Then she hopped away. I agree with you and Woody, I was just throwing this out there as examples of what I've encountered. Basically, that unless they are hit in the spine, they never drop where you shoot them. I was a little perplexed by the one this past season though.
Roe+
I agree, you need to make sure you are the best you can be before you take the shot. In my short 32 years of hunting with a rifle, I have only had 2 deer go further than 15-20 yards after the shot. Most time s they drop where shot. I have said I`m too lazy to track animals. None of my prey have ever been a spine shot. Though I do like to take neck shots on occasion. I also do not `push`deer. Not my way of hunting and the prey is already got the adrenaline going.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
It all comes back to shot placement and distance for the projectile to retain energy.
aim for the nuts
That's hard to do on a doe! LOL
Roe+
Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
Ill agree with this. I have limited experience in big game hunting with only 2 deer taken, but my observations will support this.
My first deer was a doe on the run with a 12 ga slug. She was going full tilt because my buddy just spooked her. I hit her good and the blood trail was like a horror movie, but she still went a good 150 yards through the thick stuff before she piled up.
My second deer was taken last fall with a compound. Buck walked in, totally calm with no idea I was there. I took out both lungs with the shot and he only went about 25 yards before he went down.
My dad used to claim that he shot his 30-06 so he anchored the deer, well this year he hit a nice bodied buck dead center in the heart. The thing took off and went about 150 yards with no heart left. He no longer believes in the anchor theory. His doe that he shot with the bow this year went less distance than the one shot with the rifle, 30 yards with a double lung hit vs 150 yards with a rifle shot to the heart.
Nothing is every cut and dry, humane shots are into the vitals of the deer. If you know where the vitals are and you can hit them you will kill the animal. The size of bullet and penetration depends on the game but in Ontario we do not have any really tough animals, most game can be taken with a well placed bullet out of a center fire rifle. Tracking on the other hand can be tricky if there is no exit hole, so take that into account.
I'm going to argue this one. The doe that I mentioned earlier in this thread had no clue that I was there. She was calmly grazing across a hay field and presented a perfect broadside shot to me. She was 150 yds away when she piled up.Quote:
Originally Posted by kdp89
I think shooting a deer on the run is the main reason for going over 100 meters. I have only shot one deer on the move. I usually wait till they stop. I will give kudo's to those that are able to do so. I think there are too many variables for me to add to the equation when you shoot a deer on the run. Lots of deer out there so I let them pass.
Generally I shoot 3 white tail a year and 2 mule deer. Even in Ontario, I would shoot at least one a year. My wife shoots the same and so do my sons and daughters. So letting them pass is ok to us. Some people use a whistle to stop them or a call. Still only 2 deer have gone further than 20 yards. Rifle hunting kills by shock, not bloodletting like an arrow. You need to check how much energy your projectile has at the distance and how much ripping and tearing it will do. Some bullets will not open up at short distances and therefore little shock. This will cause a deer to travel after the shot. This of course will happen on standing deer.
The other is to wait at least 20 minutes before seeking your kill. Usually this will give the deer enough time to expire, with no interference on its death.
'shock' hydro-static shock does not kill. Blood loss and CNS damage kill. There have been a ton of studies done on this (google lethality factor, l-factor). A wide and deep (pass-through) wound channel is the most critical factor in lethality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
Roy Weatherby sold the high speed shock theory well and sold a ton of guns with it, but fact, it is not.
"Some bullets will not open up at short distances"? If it doesn't open up at a short range, it will not open up at a longer range either when it is travelling slower. Lots of bullets do over-expand (aka blow up) at shorter ranges.
This is correct. A bullet that won't expand at near muzzle velocities will expand even less downrange as it slows. This is why some bullets aren't good choices for close cover shots. They expand violently as they were desighned to perform a lower velocity. I am a firm believer in complete pass throughs and double blood loss holes. Better tracking and quicker drainage and blood pressure loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
You raised some interesting points. So I called Hornady Tech. What they said was:Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
1. Bullets require enough energy to cause bloodletting and thus cause shock. If your deer shot while standing travels more than 25-50 yards, you have not hit enough vitals or there is not enough energy in the bullet to cause shock
2. A 3006, as an example, shot at a deer under 50 yards will not open enough to cause enough damage to vitals to create the shock required.
So to conclude, you need to select the proper caliber of bullet and distance with the right energy. From the manufacturers mouth.
Also,
My problem of shooting deer in the boiler room and having them cut apart he says that the 150 grain SST light mag, was not designed for deer, and would, if shot from a .308, would cut it in half. Wrong ammunition for deer, better suited for moose or elk. So weiner, no B.S.
"Bloodletting thus causing shock". This is hypovolemic shock, exactly the same shock as is induced by a broadhead and is commonly known as "bleeding to death".Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
All I have to read about your hornady tech is " 3006, as an example, shot at a deer under 50 yards will not open enough to cause enough damage to vitals to create the shock required. " to know that a) he does not have a clue what he is talking about, and b) it is all BS.
The only way a 3006 won't open up at 50 yds is if the bullet is a solid that doesn't expand. The closer the impact to the muzzle the more the projectile will expand. Sorry BW but you have it backwards when it comes to short range bullet performance. A bullet that performs adequately at the ranges you normally hunt out West could fail from over expansion at the 50 yd range. I can't believe a Hornady tech doesn't know this stuff?Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I took a doe this year with my Savage ML and a PR 260 grain Dead center bullet at 70 yards. It was a clean shot. Both Lungs and the top of the heart destroyed. The doe dropped on the spot, tail twitched for a few seconds and that was it. Entry wound was 3.5 inches and exit was 2 inches. Two ribs were gone on entry and one gone on exit.
I have made the exact same shot on a buck at 125 yards with my Savage 220 leaving a 1" entry and 2" exit, heart and lungs gone but it still ran 80 yards....
I have no idea why some drop and others run but I know I did my part!
This sums it up for me. If I do everything in my power to insure a safe, clean, quick kill - that's as humane as I can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Maybe you ALL are correct.... Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds.
So possibly not much expansion at 2600(MV) but more so at the distance equivalent to 2200-1500 fps. Making all of you correct.
Also just a point to consider, blood pressure drop and or loss is a quick "DRT" indicator regardless of whether actual VOLUME of blood loss has occurred. For example a shot causing DRT visually may in fact be a sudden drop in BP causing unconscious incapacitation until the "bloodletting, bleed out" completes.
3.5in entry wound? Holy crap, did you clip a tree first? In reality the entry hole "should" be the size of the bullet, unless for some reason there is a mushroom ahead of time. I have seen deer after they were hit by a bullet that clipped a tree first, nasty stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
"Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds."Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
That's actually how most bullets do expand. However at the velocities below the lower end they do not expand, and at velocity of above the upper end, they over expand (or explode as it it's commonly called). It would take a real bit of engineering to design a bullet that would not expand at excessive velocities, but still expand properly at its normal velocities - but first they'd have to invent the physics to support that.
I know that the Barnes bullet had a really large range of fps where it would open "optimally" but then again I heard that under that "optimal" speed they are essentially FMJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
This 30-06 was a Remington Core-Lok and trust me, it opened, a big hole.
Maybe instead of calling me a liar, you should call Hornady yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
This past deer season a friend dropped a deer at about 60 yds. The bullet was a 220 Grain Speer Hot Cor. When we got the deer back to camp we were certain the entry wound was in fact the exit. There was a 4 inch hole in the side of the rib cage. No question it was a good shot taken in good conditions. Certainly it would meet the criteria for anyone to say it was a humane shot.
After some further reading and testing it was clear that though the .358 Win rounds that he had hand loaded met all the specs the load was simply too fast for that bullet at that distance.
We clocked the speed at the muzzle near 2500 fps. This is nearly 100 fps faster than the loads given by Hodgdon. I suspect the extra speed was a result of too much crimp on the bullet during the reload.
The deer dropped just about instantly and we were able to find a small exit wound from a fragment later when we dressed it out.
All things were in place to make this a safe and humane kill - it was quick but not optimum. The point being that it serves to expand the discussion on what ingredients are needed to the mix of "What is considered a humane kill shot?" since a more severe bullet explosion on the hide could have easily resulted in an animal with a bad wound running off into the woods.
I've been shooting hornady's for 34 years now, so I know a bit about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
I don't have to call him up to know what he has told you is wrong.
You cannot make a bullet stick together by making it go faster than its intended expansion speed. Doesn't work.
Do you not have enough of a basic grasp of physics to understand how bullet speed is related to expansion? Faster = more. Slower = less. During some range of speed for a particular bullet there will be ideal or expected expansion. You cannot make it expand less, by making it go faster.
I sure wouldn't waste my time asking a guy with that poor of understanding of his work *anything*.
You are getting it backwards. A bullet designed to expand at 2200-1500 will over expand at higher velocities. So one travelling 2600 will be far more likely to come apart at the closer range/higher velocity.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
To support Werner's statement, I have a dead chronograph to show for my efforts in trying to get a bullet to go faster. I loaded (not above safe maximum IAW Hornady Reload Manual 9th Edition) a 180 gr SST 30-06. The bullet came apart after leaving the barrel and destroyed my chronograph. I don't need Hornady to tell me the story since I still have the evidence.
With that, I called them to inquire about the 125 gr SST since they are new and therefore the 9th Edition does not provide load data for them.
Hornady Tech advised using the data for 130 Gr and working up to a good load from there. He was very emphatic about the speed in stating that it was not designed to go above 3400 fps.
Point being, laws of physics dictate here - higher speed is higher expansion. It is exactly the same for anti-armor rounds and large caliber ships guns. But that is a whole different discussion thread.
Suffice to say that a bullet going too fast will in fact blow up on the hide simply due to penetration associated with surface tension. Much the same why people die from falling into the water from great heights. The human body simply ruptures on the surface since the water at that speed is like concrete...
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I'm sorry you feel that way.
However it is obvious that a humane kill involves more than putting a bullet in the boiler room but also requires the right bullet at the right distance with the proper energy to kill and put in the right spot.
In the aftermath of last season we toyed with some different ideas. As soon as we get some time this winter (since we have some time since deer and moose season is closed) we are going to mix up a batch of ballistic gelatin. I have a bunch of 165 gr and 180 gr SST loads for my 30-06 that I want to test.
If nothing else it will be fun. What I hope to find out is where the optimum point is for bullet expansion. Since I dont' expect to shoot beyond 200 yds I don't need the bullet to go too fast. I expect I will find out that I can load less powder, slow the bullet down and still have good performance. (Currently I am getting pretty close to 2900 fps with 165 gr bullets).
Too bad we can't use ballistic gel at the shooting range (not allowed - I asked). So we will have to do a field experiment. Interestingly enough you can make ballistic gel quite easily - Google it. Apparently it can get real stinky.
We will do it at friend's house since he doesn't have a wife..
Usually you would be correct but when the bullet hit the ribs (Slight angle) the expansion was total and probably fragmented to some degree. The exit wound likely was the result of the rest of the bullet that did not fragment punching through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
These are pure lead bullets without jackets but have a ballistic tip so expansion is considerable.
Should also mention that this loading was designed for use to 200 yards so it was reasonably hot, maybe too hot for short range.
I have had this happen with some small cal loadings as well. You push them too hard or shoot high velocity frangibles in rain or even high humidity days, you can sometimes see this occur. Could also be weakness in the particular bullet itself....Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
I know the vmax bullets will darn near disintegrate on a piece of grass!
Yup, the V-Max are made that way. Right now I am coyote hunting and I am not using V-Max though I have a bunch of them. Interestingly enough I have opted for the cheap Remington bulk Spire Points. I tested them at 200 yds and they shoot accurately enough.
I want the coyote hide so the last thing I need is a frangible bullet (50 Gr V-Max) blowing up the side of an otherwise nice pelt. I will save the V-Max for other critters.
On the topic of it being just one bad bullet, I suspect that it may have been the loading die leaving a circular dent in the top of the bullet. I have since bought an A-Max seating stem for my 30-06 dies. No dent now.
So it expanded on the rib, so the entrance hole was still the size of the bullet but the expansion was almost instant and violent. I have shot groundhogs with the .222 Rem and they almost seem to blow up, fast expanding bullet expanded when impacting the skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
If the bullet expanded that quickly on the entrance rib then ya it was probably too hot for that distance. Still thinking about that hole, messy stuff.
The biggest entrance hole I put into a deer was a 12ga full bore slug, not very fast and not a lot of expansion but a .729" hole in and out does the job, there is also a lot less meat damage than the .270 Win at close range, BTW venison ribs are delicious if not blood shot :).
I like to watch hunting videos as much as the next person on tv and you-tube. But maybe what really happens on the hunt should stay on the hunt. I hunt deer with bow and we push with dogs on the rifle hunt and it is great if they fall to the ground when you pull the trigger but in reality most times not.
At least you can make use of the dogs for tracking, they can do wonders. Even well hit deer can be tough to track in November, dogs are just awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter391
From what I've seen, Nosler partitions have the largest range of velocities (from fast to slow) where they open up and function properly. Not the mythical any velocity bullet you describe in your last sentence but probably the closest thing I have ever used. They still fail at "too slow" velocities (insufficient expansion) but do not seem to explode at the higher velocities like the SST are prone to. They also seem to do better on bone.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Interesting thread. :thumbup:
All I know is on Deer size game, in most case, higher velocity = higher shock = more blood shot meat (regardless the bullet type used).
All things being equal, shooting in the lung area on a relaxed Deer with slower or faster bullets they usually drop within 100 feet (I know there are exceptions). The only difference is with the higher velocity you lose 12" of blood shot meat around the bullet hole and slower velocity you can eat right up to bullet hole. Just my observations and why I love hunting Deer with my 6.5 x 55 and save my 7 mm Rem Mag for Moose.
Well no there was a hole in the side of the deer 3.5 inches wide. Looked like hide was blasted out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Tremendous damage.
That is just nuts, still hard to believe but I have seen some interesting stuff while hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
I think everyone's taking this a bit far… Any shot that is going to kill an animal in a reasonable amount of time, is humane. There is no way of knowing that one specific shot is going to kill the animal instantly. Different things have happened to different people, with different animals, and different calibers. Just make the best shot possible, and at the end of the day, you've done your part. Cheers.
I keep hearing this, If you do your best that is good enough, and therefore humane. Kind of like situation ethics and yes this is an ethical debate. If I only bring my rifle out once a year to hunt and take a shot at a deer, it may be the best shot, for me. But is the shot a humane kill? Only if by some stroke of luck, I hit where I am aiming for. And what is a reasonable amount of time for the animal to die? 30 minutes? How about if I were to cut your leg off and let you bleed out? Or how about a gut shot? It may take you hours to die, and very painfully. But its a reasonable amount of time to die, so that's humane?Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmSauce
As I said it all about ethics. If you get to make you own ethics... well???
What PalmSauce said was 100% reasonable and accurate, taking the leg off is not taught as a humane kill shot, PalmSauce is expressing placing a bullet into the vital zone of an animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
PalmSauce, a very good way or explaining your view and a very accurate one for 95% of hunters out there, no spray and pray from you :).
The only time I hit a leg is on the way the boiler room and then the deer dies!
Roe+
Once that bullet or arrow is in travel, you have no control of the distance or time it takes for that animal to die (based on a quality shot) Lets line up 10 deer at 100 yards and all shot with the same gun, same load, all in a mechanical shooting vise and all shot in the boiler room. I'll guarantee you'll have deer that drop on the spot and dont move again, others drop and get up and run, run for a short distance, and others that run a greater diatance. All deer are different, no different than us. Can some of us take a punch and stand there and laugh, while others are out cold on the ground.....your damned right.........how can i drink double what my buddy can?.....because we all react and deal with stuff differently, no different than an animal.
In any debate you need to explore the fringes, I believe one of the worse shots you can make it to shoot the legs then chase it. One of the guys who used to come to camp did this. It went about 300 yards and hid in some pretty dense evergreen bush. We did find it about 2 hours later. The other more common is a gut shot. I would not consider that humane in any way shape or form.
With the original post, It comes down to a question of ethics. If you spend the time to ensure your shot, make sure you shoot the right bullet at the right distance and know your shot. If your deer travels more than 75 meters, you missed. In discussing this with a number of well known hunters and gunsmiths, this really is the case.
If your deer travels more than 75 meters you missed a humane kill shot, hmm.
Heart shot deer, runs 150 yards, not a humane shot? I think not.
While I can agree with some of this I don't agree with the last statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmSauce
A guy/gal who never goes to the range or sights his rifle in makes his best shot possible. Compare that to the guy who sights his rifle in, practices often, hunts often will most certainly take or make a better shot than the first example.
The first guy hasn't done his part and there are way too many hunters in this group.
You do not have to go to the range and shoot for hours either to make sure you know the gun and where it is hitting. Lots of guys only sight in then go hunting and most of them are ethical hunters who hit the vitals and make humane shots.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
What this thread is about is "What is a humane kill shot " not ethics .
For a definition of ethics , go to these links ;
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
What you have to look it is how long a deer lives after it has suffered a heart shot or lung shot...and what it does in that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Not sure exact lengths of time, but say 30 sec for a heart and 60 sec for a double lung. A deer can cover quite a bit of ground in that time if it decides to run - so equating "humane shot" to distance run is wrong.
The inverse is also true - a gut shot deer might only go 100 yards to bed down and stay there for the hours or days it takes to die if not disturbed.
I always think that it's how long an animal suffers between the shot and death.
Each bullet is designed to work best at a certain velocity when hitting a certain size critter. A moose or elk bullet can pass thru a small deer without much expansion, even at its design velocity. Centifical force also plays a large part in bullet expansion. Once they get "out of shape" a lightly built bullet can come apart pretty quick at 120,000rpm....(30-06 area)
Exactly, the first deer I actually shot was hit before by an arrow and was a little back, clipped the liver and gut, I took the shot from 15 yards to finish it and saw it fall within 30 yards of the shot. The original shooter was almost in tears because he made a bad shot and caused undue pain to the animal, I will hunt with him any day with that attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I would suggest that he does not. He could make a better shot if he went to the range. Maintaining competence is just part of making the best shot possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
We are arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Lol, great analogy welsh!
My point exactly. If you do not practice you do not know where you shoot. I've shot competitively and in the armed forces, where a long shot was to order of the day. Every year I practice about 200 rounds with each rifle I'm hunting with. Some because I enjoy it but also so when I'm in the field I can be my best, without question. With all my experience shooting, I guess I'm just incompetent and I need the practice I'd say who told me about missing if the deer goes further than 75 yards, but one you've already called a liar, and stupid. The others, well, between gunsmiths and hunters there is probably about 1000 years of experience. You probably don't believe them anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Yes Hunting, any part of it is about ethics. Especially when you are talking about humane shots. I have very little respect for anyone who takes an untried weapon into the field. Taking a couple shots doesn't cut it. Sawbill is absolutely right, you need to practice till you are positive you know exactly where your shot is going.
Blackwolf - you seem to be suggesting that if you do everything right - it will be a humane kill.
Are you saying all your kills were humane? I doubt it. I"m sure they were intended to be humane but life (and death) is not always cut and dry.
If for some reason you shoot a deer in the front leg and it hobbles/runs off. This was a mistake that happens. Not a humane kill.
But what are you going to do - quit hunting? No. You live and learn from the circumstance.
I'm suggesting that if you practice and study your rifle and ammunition, you will reduce the chance of not having a humane kill. The first deer I took was south of Cambridge in the late 90's. I missed with a slug and it crumpled about 200 yards away. I learned to practice. Even with all I have shot, I thought shotgun..whats the big deal. Was the shot humane NO!! I should have known better but I made a mistake. I have shot almost 5 deer a year for the last 7 years. And helped my wife shoot her deer every year. All in all, I have never seen a deer go more than 20 yards in the last 7 years. That includes all my two son's deer and my daughter's deer. Then there are the deer I help hunt with friends. So all in all I shoot and help hunt almost 50 deer a year. I still never see a deer go more than 20 yards after its shot.
Am I a perfect hunter or shot? No, We just all take the time to practice and get better at our art.
The other extreme from BW are some of those we see at the gravel pit who shoot until one of their shots hits within 6-8 inches of the aiming point, and then declare that's close enough to kill, never having moved the sights during the whole 6 shots!
The topic is what is considered a humane kill shot. Not ethics, not mercy killing, not euthanasia not perishable skills.
Wouldn't any sized projectile that physically entered a vital zone on a game animal resulting in quick death be a humane kill shot? Regardless of ethics, regardless of practice/skill, regardless of distance, regardless of caliber?
Ethics, intent and skill are not absolute in determining the end result of a humane kill, nor is the lack of same. The end results is the end result no matter how someone arrived there. Don't over think it.
However I do agree that the peripheral subjects(to this particular topic) like ethics, skill, recognizing that marksmanship is perishable, choosing the proper bullet/caliber are all important and play into fair chase hunting. I just don't think they define a humane game kill.
OK humour time... I think the only real sure fired way to make sure its a humane kill it probably using a rocket launcher. Or a grenade launcher. The poor things would see the rocket coming say oh DARN!! and Die before it hits them. The down side is the waste of a few pounds of meat. But it would be already barbequed. :):):)
Agreed. Bullet construction and impact velocity is a big factor. I witnessed with my own two eyes 16 deer shot this year. The smallest caliber being 25-06 and the biggest a .458 caliber muzzleloader. The furthest one maybe went 60 yards. On average a double lung shot went 30 yards. The only one that dropped was a neck shot at 20 feet with my 25-06. But keep in mind adrenaline is an amazing chemical!Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Just do the shot that kills the animal. Do not shoot if you are not sure you hit vital organs.
Heart
Double lungs
Boiler room, neck... that's another debateQuote:
Originally Posted by cuulguy
But how an you be sure that you will hit double lung and heart? I can hit a deer with a 17 HMR in the heart and double lung. It won't go down. Not enough shock value.
The OP asked what is a humane shot - not what is a humane caliber. I am pretty sure the OP was working on the assumption that an appropriate caliber is being used. Using an appropriate caliber a heart and/or double lung is humane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
A 17 HMR is not appropriate and it is also illegal and I am pretty sure this is pretty universally understood.
17 HMR is not legal round for deer hunt. You should know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
The minimum for deer is .243 here, so you are right. The right caliber, cannot be assumed. Assuming anything makes an.... you know. Lets go the other way, how about a .338? Or a 444 marlin? Still legal, but a little over kill if you ask me.
All I'm trying to say is to know where the shot goes you need to practice more than a few shots before hunting. The take 6 shots and get it in a 8 inch group? Not good!! You need to study to know the caliber is correct. Every manufacturer has ballistic tables. Study them.
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Originally Posted by Blackwolf
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Originally Posted by Blackwolf
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Originally Posted by Blackwolf
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Originally Posted by Blackwolf
We have minimum specs here in Ontario as well and they are adequate.
All your deer and your entire families deer dropped within 20 yards? - sorry have to call BS on that. If you claim that every shot is going to be perfect and every deer drops on the spot you are not being straight with us. I don't know where this utopia exist but not with my gang anyway. And yes I spend all kinds of time at the range and sure it helps me but I am not that great of a shot to begin with IMO.
These are not armoured warriors. They are deer. You just need to hit heart and or lungs and they will drop. That is humane and you have done your job - IMO. You don't need a 300 win mag to do it either.
You shoot 200 rounds with every gun before going in the field? Great! Good practice makes a good shot and I applaud that. Lots of folks don't need that amount of practice to be proficient. So lets not knock folks that are able.
In our gang, you are told to you must take your gun and go through sight in procedure before coming for deer season. If you don't, then don't come. Pretty simple rule but has served us well.
I know a fellow who shoots all of probably 10 shots a year and takes more game than the other 8 guys he hunts with. I had the opportunity to hunt with him once and saw him take a deer running at just over 200 yards free hand. We found the deer over 100 yards from that point. One lung and heart gone but it still ran that far.
My point to all this is you don't need to send a million rounds down range and be a perfect shot to humanely and ethically take deer. They are wild creatures and a slight movement or your adrenaline can easily cause your perfect shot to run afoul.
Again only my opinion.
If you put a .17hmr through a deers heart and double lung, it will go down. Has nothing to do with shock. Even an arrow which has very little energy will put a deer down. You are aware that there are a whole lot of bow hunters killing a whole lot of deer every year with very little 'energy' delivered by their arrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
The problem with using a .17hmr on deer is that it will likely not penetrate far enough to get to the heart or to get both lungs. It has nothing to do with energy - it has all to do with penetration.
The stuff you are posting in this thread is as laughable as your "shooting dimes @1000 yards" statement.
This would not be an example of a humane kill
http://metronews.ca/news/regina/9396...-investigated/
The mil spec accuracy standard for the m4 rifle, (c8 in Canada) is still 10 rounds inside a 5 " circle @100 yds. iron sights.
One can take that information and arrive at several enlightening conclusions wrt humane kill shots on game animals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
A bullet kills by destroying flesh and vital organs, thus causing shock and the brain clots. An arrow kills by bloodletting, and the animal dies due to lack of blood going to the brain. I have never shot nor would I ever consider shooting a deer with a .17HMR. There is not enough energy in the bullet, to kill a deer.
Just because you cannot consistently drop a standing deer, with a maximum travel being 20 yards, maybe you should do more study or practice.
Um Bw your friend died in 1999.
Double post
Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock , died in Feb. of 1999, we cannot resurrect him from the dead to be able to ask him personally.Quote:
First, And I'm not going to mention this again, Shooting was my Job, And it was witnessed by Gunnery Sgt Hathcock,
So you were only about 19 or less when this happened ? as for some reason , I think you have posted your age to be around 55.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
BTW, I have read the book about him " Silent Warrior: The Marine Sniper's Vietnam Story Continues by Charles Henderson ,good read for anyone interested.
Nothing I just find it hard to believe that a guy on Ontario out of doors forum who lives in Alberta had Gunnery sergeant Carlos Hathcock as a spotter Who says to call his friend up and ask if BW is the real deal. when the guy has been gone since 1999.
I am not saying it isn't possible but it's the internet.
I don't shoot a lot of standing deer. Mostly, they are running through fairly thick bush and mostly they are DRT. Usually I use a .444 marlin with 265 gr, but I have used a .44mag and a .30-30 on occaission. I've shot and cleaned and cut up enough deer to know what kills them. I don't know where you got the idean I can't hit deer and drop them on the spot - although dropping them on the spot is largely a function of a breakdown shot (CNS or shoulder) rather than some miraculous "shock". There are enough stories from just the hunters on this site alone that you should know that a clean heart/lung shot without CNS or bone damage cannot be guaranteed to knock a deer off its feet. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't but it has *nothing* to do with "shock".Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
For a guy who "shooting was his job", you have posted some information that shows a pretty poor knowledge of it. And I hope you don't mention it again...it's embarrassing to read.
That you have to keep reminding us of it should be a note to you that we'd never guess it by the stuff you're posting.
I guess some will be reviewing all these posts on their Ipod before they squeeze off a round on a deer . There will be some great recipes for tag soup posted . I'll just continue to try for head and neck shots where possible and enjoy my venison steak and chops . High flying rounds entering a shoulder will put a deer down but what a waste of good meat that I always found shocking when they blow out the exit side .
TD
actually you brought the subject up.....Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
And who are you to judge others. Have you walked in my shoes? You post some really stupid things even though you call experts liars you know more than they do. I have never nor would consider shooting a deer with a 444 marlin. If it will drop a large black bear or grizzly then its a little big for a deer. Why not a 45-70? Same use...Just too big
" How bullets kill
A rifle bullet kills an animal by destroying tissue, disrupting the function of vital organs or the central nervous system, causing blood loss, and perhaps by shock to the animal's system. The latter can be almost instantly fatal, or almost completely lacking, depending on circumstances beyond the hunter's control. The more damage a bullet causes, the more likely it is to produce a quick kill.
Shock seems most likely to occur when light framed animals are hit by high velocity bullets. The classic case would be when a small (say about 100 pound), relaxed, deer or antelope is hit by a 130 grain .270 bullet at short to medium range. Sometimes the animal goes down so fast that it seems as if the earth was jerked from under its feet. This is the "four feet in the air" effect. But if the same animal were frightened or excited before he was hit, he might run a considerable distance before expiring. As I said, shock can be deadly, but it is unpredictable."- Chuck Hawkes
"How an Arrow Kills
Generally speaking arrows tipped with razor sharp broadheads kill by cutting major blood vessels, both arteries and veins. This causes massive blood loss, reduced blood pressure, and loss of oxygen to the brain. This process is known as hemorrhagic shock. An animal needs to lose about one third of its blood volume for this to happen. This process can take from seconds to several hours depending on where an animal is hit. Another way in which an arrow kills is by puncturing the lungs. Lungs are contained within a pneumatic lining that is airtight and functions like a vacuum allowing the animal to breath. When the lungs are punctured this function is disrupted and the lungs collapse. The collapse of the lungs is known as a pneumo-thorax, and interrupts the exchange of oxygen in blood. When this happens the supply of oxygen to the brain is immediately interrupted and death comes within seconds. A third way that an arrow kills an animal is by cutting through the heart. Hitting the heart also causes death within seconds by stopping blood circulation, and again transport of oxygen to the brain. Since the aiming point on all big game animals is the lung area, most good shots result in a combination of these three factors. If you hit the lungs you will automatically slice through numerous veins and arteries, causing death within seconds. The same goes for a heart shot. "-Chris Eberhart
BW - did you even read that before you posted it???
A rifle bullet kills an animal by destroying tissue, disrupting the function of vital organs or the central nervous system, causing blood loss, and perhaps by shock to the animal's system. The latter can be almost instantly fatal, or almost completely lacking, depending on circumstances beyond the hunter's control.
That's what I've been saying all along and you keep attributing to the hunter's marksmanship and the caliber's "shock".
BTW - a 265 gr .444 does far, far, far less damage to meat than a 150 grain .308.
So what is wrong with reducing the issues we can control??? And I think I already posted a .308 150 SST, is meant for moose and Elk... not deer, as per Hornady, which is why I had a problem with the damage done to the deer I shot at 150 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
the 3 deer I shot in the last 4 years were with a .308 150gr and all dropped on the spot after single boiler hits. Last year I used my .243 and it took two shot but only because..................wait for it.............................a little longer................waaaiiitttt................. ........cause it wasn't sited in properly. Go!
Ask FOX is his new thread titled "Head shots, the only killing shot!!!!!"
baahahahaha
The guys that use them a.375 H&H Mag. on deer also say that about that cal." you can eat right up to the whole" kills deer very dead with little meat damage. Some may say that it is overkill. but it is still dead .Quote:
BTW - a 265 gr .444 does far, far, far less damage to meat than a 150 grain .308.
Incidentlly, my best friend uses a .444 and I have also seen that it does not damageas much meat as opposed to some 150 gr. 308's.
overkill > underkill
Haven't witnessed it myself but had many, many, MANY hunters tell me how much better the larger, slower calibres are for retaining quality meat around the enter/exit wounds.
Punches through much "softer" but takes a huge plug out of soft organs like the heart and lungs. Exactly what you want as a whitetail hunter.
Personally, a 45-70 Marlin is high on my list of must-have rifles, for that reason.
WR, if you have any detailed pics of successful harvests with your large bores, please feel free to share with me via PM. I like to know what to expect.
Causing shock. Shock, in medical terms, is a problem of blood loss. As Werner has already pointed out, you are confusing shock (the effects of major blood loss) with the fictional concept of "hydrostatic shock," whereby the impact of a bullet itself causes death. That idea has been thoroughly debunked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
Bullets kill in two ways: either they immediately disrupt the central nervous system by blowing the brain stem to Jell-O, or they cause tissue damage and you bleed to death.
So we've established that Chuck Hawkes believes in a concept that has been thoroughly debunked. Got something from the medical literature?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
Since you have debunked a world class authority, I assume you have better proof, and you are considered an expert in this feild???Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
It seems like you don't know much about caliber. A 45-70 is a slow bullet that's why it doesn't do much damage unless, like any other calibers, you hit a bone. But because of his weight has a really good knock down power and reduce lungs to slush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
You should do your homework a little bit better, IMO.
Hmmm... I am not all that convinced that hydrostatic shock is a myth. I am the first to agree that the internet is not the absolute truth source, however it seems that the links and references in this Wikipedia article tend to support it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
From the links and references provided in the Wikipedia link, I believe this article is highly salient to this discussion.
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Know...e+Killing.html
I like this
In conclusion, with ideal shot placement and utilizing a cartridge with sufficient power to penetrate the vitals of intended game, we can destroy the CNS and cause an instant kill - however this is often idealistic and unrealistic. With less than ideal shot placement, high velocity can initiate hydrostatic shock and hydraulic wounding to help ensure fast kills out to ordinary hunting ranges (300 yards). In the absence of high velocity, a fragmentary projectile can ensure fast killing via hydraulic shock and wide (mechanical) wounding, producing fast bleeding. In all instances, bullet weight and bullet construction need to be matched to the job at hand.
Can you point to a single paper by Chuck Hawks on wounding effects published in the medical literature? No?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
I guess he's not a world-class authority on how bullets kill, then. If you were looking for expert opinion, rather than the opinion of some guy who writes about guns, you might start with Martin Fackler.
Bullets cause wounding by two mechanisms: what they hit directly, and what they damage by temporary cavitation. Temporary cavitation -- the big cavity the bullet blows by "shock," which closes almost immediately -- is not the same thing as "hydrostatic shock." Most parts of the body are not significantly damaged by temporary cavitation, so it comes down to this: either the bullet hits the animal where it immediately causes massive damage to heart or brain, or the bullet hits somewhere else and the animal bleeds to death.
I don't need to be a world-class authority on this. I only need to be able to evaluate which evidence is good, and which is bad. On that note, this paper covers the territory.
http://www.hsj.gr/volume4/issue4/445.pdf
Hydrostatic shock would be most likely to cause significant injury when temporary cavitation affected the heart. But in this case, the wound would be non-survivable regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
I don't think you'll find many cases where you see death by hydrostatic shock associated with a minor or survivable wound.
Agreed. If I am understanding what I am reading I see that a combination of terminal effects are at play. As it relates to the OP of what is humane IMO from reading there are a number of things that can be done by the hunter to help ensure a quick kill. Shot placement, selection of proper cartridge used at a range suitable for its ability to retain and deliver energy and a plan to make a second shot if the first doesn't go well.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
There has been a lot of back and forth in this thread but I must say that I have learned from the discussion heated that it may have been at times.
OMG . Who goes through medical journals to find out what is a humane shot and whether it is a hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock an animal dies by . Actually the medical field is one of the most flawed ones on earth and no two so called experts agree . Just shoot them in the head and watch their eyes bug out in shock . Down for the count each and every time .
TD
Nobody. Did it strike you that I might be interested in this for other reasons?Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
my thoughts exactly. trouble is people generally on this board tend to think that to accomplish proper shot placement, one only needs to hit a pie plate at 25 yards. At least with most of your 6 shots. All the rest is just legalities as far as caliber to be used, but really they don't agree with the law anyway. In my opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
No I didn't Welsh because I'm just thinking about the original intent of the thread . And your arguing a point . Are you now saying it has nothing to do with what is a humane shot ?
TD
BW... in some of my other responses you will see that I am a big proponent of practice. It is one of the reasons that I recommend reloading because it allows you to shoot more for less. I normally start at what I am least good at. So when I get a chance I am usually in a standing position shooting to 100 yds. I have not managed to find trees that move to where I need them in order to make a rest to shoot off of. Funny how that is.
Then I move to knee or sitting. Most can shoot prone so I don't work that one as much. Two things that I work all the time is breathing and trigger control.
And there in lies the start of it all... the confidence to make good shot placement.
WTF are you even talking about? Are you suggesting that if people have some knowledge, they shouldn't bring it to bear on the discussion? Or are you just carrying on a lame-a** chickens**t personal vendetta here? Isn't this the point where you usually make some remark about my dog?Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
Where do you get that idea? I suppose that's what an elitist would think of anyone who shoots less than 200 rounds a year out of each rifle before hunting season. Pretty well anyone on this board will recommend sighting in at 100 yards with a rifle and rechecking your zero every season. Maybe not quite as far with a shotgun. Practice is fine, but here in Ontario, "minute of deer" accuracy is good enough for the typical ranges we encounter. Dead is dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
Also, those of us who actually hunt and experience death in animals know that they don't always go down within 20 yards. I don't care how much you practice or how good with a rifle you claim to be, it just doesn't happen that way. If that's what is happening out there in Alberta, you should call in a wildlife biologist to investigate the deer that seem to be an anomaly in your area. I don't know when this thread became "Blackwood's sermon on ethics and shot placement", but most of us are tired of reading your exaggerated claims. Look up the word "confabulation", it will explain a little of what is going on here.
If you can't play nice..........