Just wondering why there is no effort to increase Hun numbers. I have seen eggs and chicks for sale on many game bird sites, you would think that some organization would start a re-introduction or at least a release program?
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Just wondering why there is no effort to increase Hun numbers. I have seen eggs and chicks for sale on many game bird sites, you would think that some organization would start a re-introduction or at least a release program?
It would be nice if Ontario Huns lived in more than just the stories of old timers, but in terms of re-introduction or rehabilitation of upland birds I'd think there would be higher priorities:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass
1. Ruffed Grouse (southern Ontario) - native species
2. Bobwhite Quail - native species
3. Ring-necked Pheasant - non-native species
4. Hungarian Partridge - non-native species
The common denominator negatively affecting all of the above is lack of suitable habitat. Unless its a put and take hunt, there's no sense throwing birds on the landscape without habitat. Habitat takes money and money takes government support. As we've seen with pheasants, its hard for organizations if the Province is not a willing partner. Ontario is too committed to subsidizing wind turbines and solar panels to find spare change for hunting opportunities for non-native species.
Geez I sound like a negative bastard! :)
Besides the lack of habitat, pen raised birds are not hardwired for survival, like a wild bird,there's a couple of sportsmans club down this way that has been releasing a couple thousand ringnecks every year for the hunt in Oct. and very few if any survive to see the next year, it would have to be trapped wild birds relocated to have any chance to come back, like what was done with the wild turkeys.
I have to disagree about pen raised birds not making it. I spent some time in Kentucky at an early release quail operation. When the quail were initially released they were pretty stupid. After about 3 days the weak ones died or were picked off by predators but the ones left over became spooky and acted like wild birds. All through the summer last year quail stayed and survived on the property with chicks observed during the previous spring. I don't think you need wild birds to reintroduce a population, with the right habitat, healthy pen raised birds can be the basis for a wild population. The biggest issue is habitat the second being the MNR.
Huns and quail pretty fragile for reduced habitat,weather,ice ect.If the grouse,woodcock and pheasants don't do so well lately.Then huns and quail would be much worse off.So $ for them not the best use of funds.As much as we would all love to have a huntable population of them.
I think in Ontario we are extremely shortchanged as far as upland initiatives go. The States seem to really work on helping their upland species with things like Pheasants Forever and big habitat reconstruction for birds. I know its hard to get people to help out but I'm sure people would - I know I sure would. If not for huns then for grouse or pheasants or bobwhites. The MNR only steps in once a species has been extinct from an area for awhile before reintroducing them instead of helping struggling populations and stopping it from happening.
You will expect high mortality on pen raised birds. If you actually expect to establish a population, you have to take that high mortality into account and close hunting until the population is stabilized. But the key problem throughout much of southern Ontario is simply a lack of habitat.
'You will expect high mortality on pen raised birds. If you actually expect to establish a population, you have to take that high mortality into account and close hunting until the population is stabilized. But the key problem throughout much of southern Ontario is simply a lack of habitat. "
Well said.
Also predators.The winters(except this one..:-(...)have been more moderate for years since "back in the day".
As my dad said."the birds were numerous when I was a kid because we could allow few predators.Before birds of prey were protected and fur was valuable everyone was after those animals and birds taking thier chickens because they needed them.So with new laws and reduced fur harvest something has to give.That and habitat reduction is the only difference since I was a kid.The weather is easier now".
So I took up turkey,goose and coyote hunting instead of upland game:-(
Yes and also the fact that much of Southern Ontario habitat is private property. So tax money invested by the MNR would not necessarily benefit many people without private land access. You could be spending money creating a private shooting club/oppurtunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
That says it right there , private property and ideal habitat and lots of it just do not go hand in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I totally disagree with the lack of habitat theory. The habitat needs to be improved but the areas I hunt are more than suitable. If we had a similliar program as pheasants for ever or quail forever with the co-operation of local farmers it could work. The program needs to be Canadian base not a U.S.A program.
There`s plenty of wild Huns in Manitoba and Sask. They have thrived very well for almost a century. There was a population on the east side of Simcoe , for years. Haven't heard of any for years. My point is, there is wild stock out there. They do like open space though , which could be an issue , in Ontario.
Over the years I have spoken with quite a few farmers to see if they would be willing to let their parts of their farms go back to the "wild " to support wildlife ie. birds , with support from the Gov. if possible .Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
All of them said in pretty well these words " are you nuts " after all the money and time put into drainage of our land to make it more productive, we would certainly not even think about it .
Don't forget, farms around here are mostly 100 to 200 acres they are not the 1000 plus acre farms that are out west which even out there a lot of farmers are not willing to take land out of production.
So we are back to the same thing , no habitat and lots of it , equals no birds.
In Lambton Co.?Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
The fact is that pheasants require substantial areas of open, undisturbed grassland for successful nesting. They cannot use hedgerows, field edges, crop fields, woodlots, or hayfields that get mowed before the chicks are reared, etc. So the habitat that actually exists in southern Ontario is not what pheasants need to survive. This is one important reason that our pheasants disappeared in the first place.
As jaycee points out, most of the land is not only private but is farmland, and the people working it are generally not amenable to taking big chunks of land out of production.
The birds that are doing well on our landscape at present -- wild turkeys -- are those that can use the habitat that we have, i.e. woodlots with mature trees. Grouse, which require young forests, are all but absent from the south west. Likewise most other upland birds. The best hunting we have is for woodcock, and that's at its best when birds from up north are passing through. This part of the country sucks for bird habitat.
I am coming across small pockets of pheasant in the areas i hunt. The main reason is what you have written welsh. A fellow co worker has been doing this gradually on some of his property that i hunt on with promising results. His family owns thousands of acres but his day job is a land use planner. Not all areas in Lambton County is flatter than a pancake some areas have rolling hills with native grassland pockets. Lots of potential and some low key people doing good things.
You are right in the sense that we have lots of spots the look like they should hold birds, but as you say they are pockets. We do not have enough contiguous cover of this type. In the case of pheasants, the best habitat we had to offer was selected for the re-introduction pilot project almost a decade ago in the Aylmer District. A lot was learned from that study, including that a lack of suitable habitat was a major factor in mortality through predation.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
As Welsh has said, our existing landscape and farming practices are well-suited to the needs of wild turkeys and as a result they have thrived without the need for any significant habitat improvement work. But habitat for wild grassland birds like Huns, quail or pheasants goes against the grain of the economics of our current land use practices.
As for government programs, a great model might be the long-standing U.S. Federal CRP program, but I hear that one is facing ever increasing budget troubles. Something similar called ALUS was tried as a pilot in Ontario a few years ago, but I have not heard much of it lately.
Aside from lack of funds in Ontario, successive Provincial governments have created a climate where those who make their living off the land distrust government when it comes to natural habitat. Well-meaning policies that designate things like Provincially Significant Wetlands and Species at Risk have resulted in such habitats being a liability for farmers rather than an asset.
Instead of rewarding farmers in a meaningful way for preserving natural areas for the benefit of the ecosystem and for all of society, the government effectively penalizes farmers through land use restrictions (e.g. a farmer who wants to build a new storage barn in his existing cornfield, but within 30 metres of a Significant Woodlot, is required to first retain a consultant to undertake a 4-season environmental impact study). The last thing a farmer wants to hear these days is somebody from the Province or an organization like Pheasants Forever tell him that part of his farm contains significant tall grass prairie habitat worthy of protecting. Sad but true.
First of all are we talking about huns, pheasants or quail?Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
I agree with YD. I live in Lambton county as well and I know several places where I believe coveys of quail could be established and do well. But it would just be a covey here and a covey there and I do not think we could get a huntable population with the current habitat but there is enough to get some covey's established. I say we couldn't get a huntable population because sooner or later someone is going to come in and shoot the whole covey out and they wouldn't recover. For any of this to work you would have to start with a closed season and then maybe have a 2 or 3 week season in the future. Any upland game we could get established would probably not survive hunting pressure through all Oct, Nov and December due to the limits the current habitat put on the population.
There was an attempt at pheasant reintroduction in Lambton county some years ago and the main reason it didn't succeed wasn't the habitat issue.
I am talking pheasants and quail. Personally I would be happy with pockets of both species in designated areas that I am familiar with that hold small pockets of pheasant. Signage would have to be posted indicating or explaining the project to prevent people from hunting these areas. Even if these small pockets expanded to other areas over time at least its better than what we have now. For me knowing these areas i hunt could eventually hold more birds is a reward in itself even if i never shoot one. I would rather focus on the positive potential than all the negative reasons why it wouldn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Really depends on the farmers you speak to.Most of my family were farmers and had hog operations and cash crop farming. Because they farmed 150 acres to 300 they would not be interested because of the small scale farming they do. One of my co workers family and extended family owns close to 6,000 acres in Lambton County . Some of the acreage could be used for habitat improvement if they were persuaded and i think it is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
This is another part of the puzzle, one that people really don't want to acknowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
I have old copies of OOD from the 1980s talking about how elk reintroduction was going. And when did we finally get an elk season? Similarly, turkeys remained closed for years until a population was established. Re-establishing pheasants, huns, and so on would require closing the season on these birds in the areas they were reintroduced. And shooting hens, with pheasants, would have to go.
I don't have the report with me because I'm on the road, but I believe habitat was identified as the major problem. Pockets of habitat leave animals vulnerable, and there is simply not enough contiguous and connected habitat to get the birds established. This is also the problem with grouse down south: there are good woodlots here and there, but they are small and not connected to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
What the official report says and what really happened aren't necessarily the same thing. From what I heard at the local hunt clubs is they released the pheasants, didn't close the season and everyone knew where they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
The guys that I know that used to hunt grouse in the south all said that when the turkeys showed up the grouse left.
I am not trying to be negative about it. I would be very happy with small pockets that I could work dogs on from time to time and never kill a bird.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
My vision of something like this is identifying potential areas then take 5000 birds and set 100 fifty bird coveys in the late spring and hope to have 10 coveys left next spring. These birds would probably need some supplemental feeding to get them through the first winter. Pen raised birds with enough genetic diversity would work fine for this.
I would like to see a setup like Pelee Island for quail also. They could use an Island like Amherst Island which is just off of Kingston. Very agricultural but not on a huge commercial level with huge farms. Set it up like the Pelee hunt and it would be great to have that . Of course it's put and take but can be great for local economies and could be a pretty good hunt too? Put and take pen quail can be terrible flyers but I have also seen what semi wild planted birds become after a few days out and its not bad.
turkeys kill partridge poults
Don't forget (and very few people know this) how many Wild Huns were trapped in Ontario and traded for Wild Turkeys(with the US...Michigan I believe)....there is a report on this but you have to dig for it......they were doing ok up until this trapping and then the Ice storms pretty much sealed their fate......most of us are barking up the wrong Tree when it comes to Govt help....this is exactly whats killing Upland initiatives in Ontario......we need to have legislation where private Groups and individuals take charge like in the US and in the US its because of Private Organizations (the Govt actually listens to them there) why Upland Birds are doing better than here....Huns are making a good comeback here....lets just keep quiet about that for now but if you don't now where to look and what to look for...you wont find any....not even out West.....you have to hike to find Huns......Pheasants will never take hold here or get a boost unless the shooting of Hens is abolished and like someone mentioned (and the most important factor for any of these Birds) is NESTING HABITAT....I;e.....Native Grasses left undisturbed....we have the Habitat for them to take hold and survive but too many are lost because of lack of nesting habitat....as mentioned they get mowed down....out West, they have flushing Bars that are used all year long when they cut the grass on the shoulders of the Trunk roads (where a lot of Birds hide during the day) the flushing bar is ahead of the cutters and flushes the birds before they get into harms way....little changes here COULD make a big difference.....a 1 or 2 acre plot left on every Farm would be more than enough and its not a lot to ask for.....I could go on but talk is cheap I guess.
Back in Europe theirs a subspecies of the ringneck pheasant that does well in more woody hedgerow field edges agricultural areas. I forget the exact name of the pheasant but remember it being darker and has a bit more of a greener hue to it. Its more suited to brushy agricultural areas and I think would have a better chance of surviving in S. Ont. I think any stocking programs should look into this subspecies of pheasant as well as stoping the harvest of hens.
Ok I did a little search and found out they are called Sichuan pheasants.
Yes i am familiar with that pheasant species and also wondered if it could be used instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishhawk
I am in total agreement with you.Quote:
by Jakezilla " I am not trying to be negative about it. I would be very happy with small pockets that I could work dogs on from time to time and never kill a bird.
These little pockets would be fine and dandy , but what happens when every one finds out about them and they receive heavy pressure,? there are guys out there that just could not leave these areas alone, they would hammer them day in and day out and the birds would quickly be wiped out .
That is why to have any sustainable number of birds , you need vast amounts of habitat which you will not see happening in Ontario, it is a very sad situation .
So if pheasant rehabilitation have not worked wel historicallyl.Would smaller,more vulnerable birds like huns and quail?
Personally I believe it didn't work because of the way they went about it. The guys running the show were probably waaayy to educated and definitely lacked common sense. I believe it is doable with quail and pheasant in my area but it involves closing the season, planting a crazy amount of birds (thousands), using pen raised birds, and looking into some form of predator (raptor) control. If there ended up being a somewhat stable population after a couple years just be sensible about the season. Only have it open 2 or 3 weeks for the year and make it pheasants only and suggest only taking 3 birds per quail covey. Like Jaycee said I doubt there is enough habitat to have a population big enough to handle Oct - Dec hunting pressure like the good ole days but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something. PR had one of the best ideas in taking it out of government control and put the project in the hands of local conservation groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tealo
They need to come up with a model that will float financially long term. Relying on a government grant these days is dreaming so yeah some sort of private long term setup is what is needed. Not sure if you could find enough bird hunters to fund stocking and gaining private land access. Then again I don't know what it would cost to compensate land owners and pay for the amount of birds needed to get it up and running. Would I as a bird dog guy be interested in investing? Sure, but if it is in the Windsor/Sarnia corridor then then the driving logistics make it tougher. I'm a member of a pheasant club which is really handy when you want to pop out 2-3 times a week for a couple hours and put some birds in front of your dog. That type of setup seems to work financially as it has been in existance for years.
Great thread guys, a lot of information here. I remember in the mid 1980's in the Lynden area at my parents property where I hunt now, we would see grouse in the bush, I haven't seen one for a long time. I think there is suitable habitat out there with enough acreage for grouse but not Hun's
A good number of years ago a friend of mine raised and let loose about 200 pheasant chicks [ after they were able to be on their own].Quote:
by Jakezilla, but it involves closing the season, planting a crazy amount of birds (thousands), using pen raised birds, and looking into some form of predator (raptor) control.
He did this for 5 years , released them on his sons property of just over 200 acres .
No one hunted them other than the owls and hawks and foxes, it was amazing to see the number of hawks that were around the area.
You could go out at any time of day and see 8 to 10 sometimes more , red tailed hawks plus coopers and marsh hawks . At night time you could hear the owls .
Poor pheasants could not survive and breed on their own , as when winter arrived they had to contend with foxes and coyotes also there were cats wandering around that we always figured would kill any young birds .
Predators are always a problem.
My old friend after seeing all his work go for naught just gave up and said "well it looks like you and I and your dogs just won't have any pheasants to hunt unless we go to a game farm ".
I miss my old friend , he passed away a number of years ago , his son and I still talk about some of his fathers efforts at restocking pheasants "to feed the hawks ".
I wonder what Hawk tastes like? :silly:
great he released 1000 birds however what did he do for habitat? Did he double the width of fence rows and let them fill in. Did he leave fields fallow and leave corn stalks cut high and left for winter cover? Without cover predation will always be a factor. Can always pen raise your own birds and release them when you ready too hunt no need really to go to a game farm if you have your own property.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Yup all this was done for nothing because of no habitat improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
The old farm was left in pretty much in an overgrown state , no crops were grown till his son was ready to fully take it on .Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
The fields had all natural wild grass's low brush and hawthorn trees,, they looked like a natural to support pheasants , a creek runs through the property and it had some low land around the creek all of which pheasants like , the natural food water and cover were around but so were that predators.
The habitat was there that is why he figured it would be a good idea to raise and release the pheasants , but sadly it didn't work out .
All you have to do is look around at all the game farms that do exist , they are constantly releasing birds and they are not all shot off , what happens to all those that escape the hunters guns ?.
These game farms do have the habitat but you very rarely see birds running around all over the area again why ?.
assuming that property was a pheasant paradise with cover and 12 month food source as you state there will be pheasant there. Not 200 strong as pheasants are not flock birds and will disperse between themselves. The 407 corridor where I live still has wild pheasant. Rarely see them until winter and at most may see a rooster and a couple of hens. I hunt pheasant a Hullet and would love them to tag all released pheasant as I sure there is a carry over population problem is come late Nov every farm from Clinton to the 401 is plowed over leaving noting but bare earth field with hardly no fence row cover. Predator control is not going to make any difference if that's what you are eluding too.
The reason the left over birds don't survive is the number of weeks the birds are. At six weeks of age is the prime timeline for them to naturally adjust to its surroundings with a food source and no hunters shooting at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
I haven't seen any in 25 years now, the farm has been since tiled ,drained , and all brush removed for the last 15 to 18 years and is now producing grain crops .Quote:
there will be pheasant there.
The place is only 1 1/2 kilometers as the crow flies from my place , so I see it a couple of times a week.
My friends pheasant paradise is gone and so is he.
I saw about a doz Huns on route to Petawawa the other day...feeding beside standing corn near the roadway off Galeta side road near Ottawa...they are here and the ones that are seem hardy as the snow and cold this year have been brutal. When I was a kid we saw huns all over..Winchester and Kemptville areas....they needed hedges and lots of winter cover and food...ice storm didn't help and a biologist also told me back then the switch to a clear cut liquid manure practice destroyed nesing habitat...I also ran into several people in that area that reported (COs) that were finding a lot of overharvesting of birds....why the season closed then in Mid Nov...birds vulnerable when snow flew....as for pheasant...there's a good wild pop right in the Humber river valley in GTA and surrounding golf courses..my Uncle and I run into them fishing and golfing....lol
Well now those birds days are numbered. If you want birds to hunt later a little tip don't put it on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by recurve40
Well....the land is posted and totally private there....thanks for the chastize but a point...that landowner allows NO hunting at all...for anything...I've know him for years....I doubt the birds days are numbered...they are all over 17 near the farmlands....many more in Ottawa itself where there is no hunting....habitat encroachement itself has stopped them from being hunted near here as well...huns are regularily seen at feeders in the winter here....
The good thing about Huns is....it needs Farms......it is often called the "Farm Bird"....so it needs People......they really don't need the shelterbelts as much like all the other upland birds do.......out west an old Barn or parked Farm Equipment is what they use for shelter....but they do need the right crops (Grains of any kind) and with wheat and Barley prices up....Farmers are planting more Grains.....the reason Huns seem scarce is because Ontario is a HUGE chunk of land and Birds are dispersed over a wide range....in Alberta, its really not a big area...when compared to Ontario that is. Example.....if Alberta lets say has 1million Birds province wide and the same for Ontario....you would find them easier in Alberta whereas in Ontario it would be a lot harder to locate Coveys because of Ontarios size.
Not to Hijack a thread but I believe this falls in line when talking about "habitat loss".
Last nights paper , article about farms in Ontario , The total number of farms is decreasing but they ones remaining are actually getting larger.
According to Statistics Canada since 1991 to 2011 , the number of farms dropped by 74,000 but the average farm increased in size from 80 hectares to 315 hectares, [roughly 200 acres to almost 800 acres].
When you take this into consideration, that would have taken out a lot of marginal land that was good habitat for wildlife, as this land would now be worked over tiled and drained in most cases to make these large farms productive and profitable .
It's a shame but that is the way things are going now, I have seen a lot of this around here where we live brushy weed choked areas around bush lots cleared , this has happened on our neighbors farm along with fence lines taken out which did proved marginal habitat for some species , unfortunate but that is what's happening.
As much as we all would want to see reintroduction of a few different species of birds, with the decreasing amount of habitat in southern Ontario it seems to be a lost cause .
So as someone mentioned the only way to increase the amount of hunting time in the field for certain species of birds , is to get out and put the miles on our vehicles and travel much farther from our home base if we still want to enjoy our time in the field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Good Post Jaycee....there was more to this article......the good news also is (good if your wildlife)....a lot of Farms are going "out of production" (a lot of folks buying 100 acre plots and not farming them).....a lot of these places are reverting back to suitable habitat for a lot of species and the average age of framers is older (no younger gens getting into it) and the number of Farmers is down......good news and bad news (means we may rely more on imported products at higher costs).....see, here is where education should kick in.....the "Greenies" want alternate or cleaner fuels...so, Ethanol (corn based fuel by-products or Flexfuels) were created....this has caused a big demand for Corn.....southern Ontario is prime for growing corn..... a lot of foreign investors buying up chunks of land and clearing as much as they can for a higher yield.....so the "Greenies" think this is great...we are saving the Planet....see, they have no idea the destruction it causes for wildlife...not just Upland Birds.
That is one of my biggest complaints , the amount of land being taken out of production for other crops to grow corn for ethanol.Quote:
by Pointersrule; .....southern Ontario is prime for growing corn..... a lot of foreign investors buying up chunks of land and clearing as much as they can for a higher yield.....so the "Greenies" think this is great...we are saving the Planet....see, they have no idea the destruction it causes for wildlife...not just Upland Birds.
Corn now is grown with rows 12 inches apart to get more , whereas it used to be planted from 16 to 22 inches apart and wildlife could at least travel through more easily and use it for cover but not now .
Unfortunately it is the way the world is going , the almighty dollar rules everything with no forethought to what we are doing to our surroundings.
Manchurian Cross Pheasants are a hardy bird to introduce into the wild and also roost in tree's.
Hey , guess what all pheasants roost in trees ;
Common Pheasants are native to Asia, their original range extending from between the Black and Caspian Seas to Manchuria, Siberia, Korea, Mainland China and Taiwan. The birds are found in woodland, farmland, scrub, and wetlands. In its natural habitat the Common Pheasant lives in grassland near water with small copses of trees.[16] Extensively cleared farmland is marginal habitat that cannot maintain self-sustaining populations for long[18]
Common Pheasants are gregarious birds and outside the breeding season form loose flocks. Wherever they are hunted they are always timid once they associate humans with danger, and will quickly retreat for safety after hearing the arrival of hunting parties in the area.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...santChicks.png http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.2...gnify-clip.png
Chicks about 1 hour after hatching
While Common Pheasants are able short-distance fliers, they prefer to run. If startled however, they can suddenly burst upwards at great speed, with a distinctive "whirring" wing sound and often giving kok kok kok calls to alert conspecifics. Their flight speed is only 43–61 km/h (27–38 mph) when cruising but when chased they can fly up to 90 km/h (56 mph).
Common Pheasants feed solely on the ground but roost in sheltered trees at night. They eat a wide variety of animal and vegetable type-food, like fruit, seeds and leaves as well as a wide range of invertebrates, with small vertebrates like snakes, lizards, small mammals, and birds occasionally taken.
also they are flocking birds as opposed to some ones previous post that they do not flock together . [second paragraph]
Yup that's right.
I read " loose flocks" as wanting to keep there distance. Unlike quail and partridge that form and maintain tight coveys pheasants do not form the same.
You got that right , flocks are largeQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
coveys are small