Printable View
The most common rule with dog training , don't repeat the command.You hear this from all dog training. Yet watching numerous videos ,,training , trials,etc you hear many of the trainers especially on a "woah" command repeat repeat repeat.So all you pointing dog trainers ,do you guys repeat the "woah" command .Tell the truth now!
Same with flushers, people will repeat hup or sit over and over again. However there is a difference between in-training and trained. When I teach my dogs something I generally repeat it until I know they understand 100%, that means more than one session. However, as time goes on I do not repeat myself unless it is something like the dog has been on a sit for a longer than usual amount of time, I think of them as reminders though - not repeating myself.
I make mistakes but repeating commands isn't one of them. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by that a boy
There's repeating commands and repeating commands.
If you give a dog a command, and it does not obey, and you repeat the command, that's one thing.
If you give a dog a command, it obeys, and then you repeat the command after the dog obeys, that's another. I've seen lots of successful trainers do this.
So what kind of repetition are you seeing?
I assume you are talking about someone saying whoa to a dog while it is on point. I see that a lot but I don't do it. While the dog has a bird I want that dogs full attention and focus on the bird. If you start talking to your dog while it is on point you will break that concentration. Personally I don't say anything to my dogs while they are on point, if I have to "whoa" a broke dog that is on a bird I haven't done my job properly. When I start breaking a dog I have the ability to stop the dog using the e-collar only so there is no need for verbal commands. Most of the time I will not start teaching the "whoa" command until late in the breaking process. Like all things there are exceptions. If I am working liberated birds and I have a young "green broke" dog get too close and the dog can see the bird, and the dog looks like it is going to break, I may or may not give a cautionary whoa (depending on the dogs progress) and if the dog breaks after that I will keep my mouth shut and use the e-collar to gently stop the dog.
As far as other commands if the dog is within say 20yds and I say "here" they better bring their butt over. If a dog is at 150yds with a bell ringing in its ear and a stiff wind you are in a situation where you may have to repeat the command if the dog didn't hear you. Age and maturity will play into this as well. Usually by 6 months old I will have a dog coming reliably to the whistle. While that puppy is coming to me I repeatedly blow the whistle to keep the pups attention so it doesn't get distracted by anything like a grasshopper etc. As they get older they know what that whistle pattern means and they will generally come on a single command.
The goal is to never have to repeat a command and that is where the bar should be set, whether it is achievable with every dog in every situation that's another story. These are not biddable house pets that we are running through obedience class, they are hunting dogs bred to be mentally tough and independent.
As welsh alluded to, there is repeating a command in a training type scenario where we training by repetition and there is repeating a command because the dog is defying you. People that repeatedly whoa their dogs on point I would say are not confident in their training methods and as a result don't trust their dogs.
I know George Hickox is very big on not repeating commands, I have never watched his videos or been exposed to his methods so I can't comment or try to put it in context.
As far as videos for pointing dogs the best I have ever seen are the Huntsmith videos.
I see the whoa command repeated in many scenarios.
A dog should fully understand "whoa" apart from bird work. I started my setter pup ( and my JRT now) with "whoa" at 10 weeks. Whoa before he goes out the door or down the stairs or eats or gets into the car. The pressures around a bird are powerful enough without worrying about "whoaing the dog in the field - shouldn't be a priority lesson. ( I'm not talking about being steady to a bird/shot))
I recall Dave Hughes (pro trainer) saying in a video about some dog trial - you would think every dog's name there was whoa! :)
(handlers use it so much)
Spent the day thinking about this.
A dog should know whoa outside the context of birds but in my experience 99% of the time I see it used in the presence of birds. Maybe it is just the circles I run in but I doubt it.
In my experience people teach whoa to have some means of control over the dog. In the end though it seems to me that it's main purpose is so that you have a way to stop the dog and break it on birds without resorting to some of the harsher methods.
Several amateur trainers/trialers I know teach whoa at a young age and use it as a means to stop the dog during the breaking process. They get results but in my opinion that method rely's too much on the dog wanting to please you and I see them giving up on some of the more stubborn animals that show great potential or the process takes much longer than it should which usually leads to other problems. The biggest issue is when the dog is older and knows the whoa command and chooses not to comply, what are the options,
A repeat the command and hope they comply,
B correct with the e-collar assuming the dog knows what is expected of it,
C run the dog down and apply a physical correction
Sharon, it's good that you are teaching whoa at a young age and laying a foundation but what is your recourse when that dog knows the command and decides to give you the finger? Not trying to pick on you just looking for your thoughts. The above options are all that I can think of and all that I have witnessed.
In my opinion physical correction is a last resort and only to be used in certain circumstances. Laying hands on a dog while frustrated or angry can do irreversible damage. This is why I think it is important to have a way to stop the dog by electronic stimulation only, so that you can be removed from the situation and stop the dog or apply correction without emotion. The other benefit of this is the ability to stop a dog anywhere, any time with the push of a button without having to rely on the dog being able to hear me, see me or relying on their willingness to comply with the command. I am sure several of you have seen it where the dog listens perfectly at close range but as it gets farther away it starts to take liberties.
You get much cleaner and crisper results conditioning a dog to stop when stimulation is applied to a developed point of contact rather than giving verbal commands. Timing is very important in dog training where a second or 2 can be the difference between a dog understanding what is being asked or not understanding and pushing that button is fasted way to communicate with the dog.
I am not perfect and to say that I apply correction every time without emotion would be a lie but this process removes me from the situation enough that I can get the job done. To say my dogs are perfect would be a lie as well, they all have issues but you just keep working, learning and trying to make them and yourself better.
I probably got a bit off topic but when you talk about training dogs,and whoa is the basis of many peoples method, this apsect is very important. Most of the questions and PM's I get from people have to do with steadying dogs and the Huntsmith Whoa Post is the most efficient and only fool proof way I have seen of doing it. I have broke dogs that were extremely self willed dogs to dogs that would be considered very soft and they all come out the other end looking good, feeling good and showing no resentment. Different dogs require slight variations to the program but having the ability to stop them reliably with the e-collar is the key to everything from handling to breaking to teaching whoa.
Of course it all hinges on starting with a well bred dog that has a sound mind and a good work ethic. It is very difficult to train a quitter.
Or maybe I am just full of it.
A repeat the command and hope they comply,
B correct with the e-collar assuming the dog knows what is expected of it,
C run the dog down and apply a physical correction" quote Jake......
. timing is very important
Well said. Sh
..........................
Sharon, it's good that you are teaching whoa at a young age and laying a foundation but what is your recourse when that dog knows the command and decides to give you the finger? Not trying to pick on you just looking for your thoughts. The above options are all that I can think of and all that I have witnessed. " quote Jake...........
.................................................. .....
then I use the e collar to re inforce the command. preferable imo to saying " whoa" over and over again. I like to teach it young for three reasons:
. I know for sure that the dog knows the command well , before I introduce birds.
. It's very useful around the house etc..:)
. Much better command to use to transition to the e collar than "come" etc jmo
Great insight from all !
I've used whoa in early training with some half decent success in yard training. When he doesn't comply i will raise my voice which in some cases he will stop and roll on his back.He is certainly not a soft dog but i think i may have over reacted with the whoa command when he chased geese for 20 minutes without acknowledging me . I know he new i was calling ,but i lost my cool. I didn't hit him but i was vocal with him. I use the whoa command but i think i will try to use the stay command instead.I didn't have a electronic collar at the time.As Jakezilla said the collar takes the emotion out of it, he's exactly right.
Try having that happen in the middle of a trial with 20 people watching.:rolleyes: I still remember that day.Quote:
Originally Posted by that a boy
Thanks for replying Sharon.
Your method works and when it comes to training dogs there are a 100 different ways to do it with no real right or wrong as long as you can get the dog broke and honest. But there are limitations to some of the methods. You also have to decide what level of competency you want out of your dog. For myself I want 100% broke, bomb proof, good enough to be competitive at the highest levels in American Field sanctioned trials which is probably more that many of you require or want.
From your answer it sounds like if the dog doesn't comply the command is repeated and reinforced with an e-collar.
I am going to talk about general situations here, not that Sharon does this, she may do something different but these are things I see in the field with other amateur trainers. I am also going through this to get myself thinking about and looking at my training process to see if there are any deficencies. If any of the other experienced trainers want to chime in I welcome your thoughts but I may ask some tough questions. The best way to gain greater understanding of something is to teach it.
So now we have a situation where the dog doesn't respond to the initial command so the command is repeated and backed up with the e-collar. If this scenario is repeated enough theorectially you get a dog that starts stopping on the second whoa instead of the first because it regularly gets corrected on the second whoa. For all it knows the command to stop could be "whoa WHOA". I think this is the basis for the "Don't repeat commands" mantra. Speaking from personal experience it takes more discipline than I have to not repeat commands. The other thing is that a command that is constantly repeated just becomes background noise to the dog.
So how do we get around this do we start using the e-collar on the first command every time? If so what level are we using? Do we use momentary or continuous stimulation?
So say we get the dog to reliably stop in the yard on the whoa command combined with a low bump from the e-collar. Now we move into the field. When you intially move out of the field and to a new location the training will probably slip back some and it may take some repetition to help the dog understand that the rules learned in the yard apply outside the yard as well. Also as you move out of the yard the level of distraction will increase and you will probably have to increase the level of stimulation to get the dog to comply. So once you do some repetitions outside the yard and you are getting consistent results now you move on to birds. Here you will definitely have to raise the stimulation level of both voice and e-collar. This requires some finesse, enough to get the job done but not too much where it shuts the dog down. Personally, I believe with a high prey drive dog I am not even sure they hear you when they take off after that bird on the flush.
So up to the birds I think this method can be done by almost anyone with the right dog. But when we start with birds I think we start to have potential issue. Up to this point the combination of whoa and e-collar mean stop so we are relying to 2 things to happen in combination, the dog hearing us and the dog feeling the stimulation, then putting it together in their head and putting the brakes on. Now if we can get the dog stopping with the e-collar only (Huntsmith Whoa post) we remove the requirement of the voice command from the equation along with the emotion associated with the voice command. When that dog takes off after the bird it is probalby going to take a heck of a WHOA for him to hear you due to his focus on the chase. How do you increase the volume of your voice with out yelling, without inflection of panic or urgency or sounding angry.
Like I said, this method will work I am just going through the reasons I don't really like it or maybe I just don't understand the method.
This is completely off the top of my head and I could be wrong but... When I work with my dogs I see a difference in their response to voice commands and e-collar stimulation commands. I am not sure but I think they process the 2 differently. Just by watching the dogs it seems with voice commands they need to process it and then decide if they want to comply. Where with E-collar only commands it appears the initial reaction is more of a reflex resulting in compliance after which they then decide if they want to continue with the compliance or do their own thing. This is where timing comes into it as well. It appears to me that there is a difference in the reaction speed between voice commands and e-collar commands but this could also be because I rely on my e-collar much more than vocal commands in the training process. The reaction time doesn't matter much with most commands but I believe it makes a difference when it comes to the breaking process and the amount of time it takes the dog to put things together and understand what you want.
You are dealing with a young pointer pup from Pinehill Kennels. He should be about 10 months now? Be careful with an e-collar at that age, you are better off just watching out where you cut him loose. If there is something with feathers around or fur for that matter he is probably going to chase it and give you the finger. Even if you had a collar on him you shouldn't be using it around anything with feathers at that age. If it was deer he was chasing at that age I would turn the collar up to weld and trash break him. For the process I am talking about there are specific steps to go through to establish the point of contact on the dog so that you can stop him with an e-collar. You generally wouldn't start that process until after a good puppy development and at least 1 year of age.Quote:
Originally Posted by that a boy
If he is rolling on his back I would guess it is probably because as some point, you got mad or raised your voice, he rolled over, you let up or consoled him. Not that you should have stayed on him but "soft" dogs usually aren't that soft, they are just good manipulators. So in this case you get mad, the dog rolls over, you let up and now the dog has learned how to turn off that pressure.
"From your answer it sounds like if the dog doesn't comply the command is repeated and reinforced with an e-collar."
I'm not a wordy person , but actually the dog told me that he says to himself. " I'd better obey that first time so I don't get corrected with the e collar." :)
Thanks Jakezilla for your thoughts. All very interesting. Maurice Landley (and others before him) method also relies on e-c or tag on a CC attached to a pinch collar (no whoa). OTOH, Germans train their dogs to lie down (halt!) while in hot pursuit of a game. They use a whistle though, which to your point is probably easier for a dog to hear than voice. But Germans breed for this sort of obedience :)