http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog...ng-of-coon-dog
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Well not like that anyway.... crazy guy
Trespassing is one thing but these guys clearly were just trying to get their dogs and get out of there. The killing was totally uncalled for. And the way some people love their dogs he is probably lucky the hunters left their guns before going to retrieve the dogs. He could have just as easily escorted the men and dogs off of his property. Wouldnt have been any problems. Could have saved himself a ton of cash too! I feel sad for the guy that had to stand there while his dog was murdered in front of him.
This is similar to an Ontario case from several years ago. When one of Lawson Maccarthurs Hounds was shot and killed at the base of a tree. Lawson successfully received compensation thru the courts, not the amounts awarded in the states, but substantial by Ontario standards.
I do not believe we would se a payout of this nature in Ontario....The jury must have had some good old country folk on it that understood hunting.
Dick
If it would've been my dog, $145,000 would've been the least of that guy's worries - he wouldn't have made it out of the bush.
That was one sick individual... They should of included some jail time and a shrink evaluation....
Boy things must have changed a bunch in the last few years. Normally Frank Newby's kin would have been wondering "why don't he write/call/email/text?"
It's happened a couple of times up this way . One was a lad who shot a husky or two running deer in the deer yard out Ahmic Harbour way and I think he was fined whatever $3000 for killing the dogs then throwing the carcasses into the Mag River as the school bus came along , another one was just outside Burk's Falls where a kids beagle was doing number 2 on the neighbours porch . I think he was fined $500 plus restitution . It even hit W5 or similar . We definately don't have those kinds of teeth in our judicial system in Ontario but yes it certainly is frowned upon . Another was a horse around Powassan or Nort Bay getting into gardens .
TD
Boy things must have changed a bunch in the last few years. Normally Frank Newby's kin would have been wondering "why don't he write/call/email/text?"
I think you are right SkyPilot. lol
The Ontario thread about a similar situation lasted 18 pages and got very heated so it will be very interesting to see if this thread progresses in a similar fashion.
Firstly, as far as any information I have found about this situation, I believe the landowner was way wrong (of course I am judging him on our laws and my morals). The dog wasn't bothering his livestock and the dog wasn't threatening him. He shot the dog because the dog's owner and his buddy tresspassed on this property. This was an act of vengence; not protection. People tresspassing isn't a reason to destroy that person's property.
Secondly, some of the blame for this mess has to go to the dog owner. The dog owner's lawyer says the dog owners rightfully put away their guns and then went to retrieve the dogs. The land was posted as no tresspassing. It isn't a statement which allows for conditions. You have to go and get permission from the landowner to go onto his property.
This entire thing could have been avoided I think. Perhaps visiting the landowner prior to running the hounds and asking for permission to go on the property to tree coons or even asking to be allowed to retrieve the dog if it went over the property line. Perhaps not running the hound so close to the property line or better recall training so the dog can be called off before it treed the coon. The landowner's property certainly wasn't being respected; however, coming into the situation as he did (angry and with a gun) certainly didn't de-escalate the situation.
Dyth
Dyth , they did try to contact the owner Dyth before they retrieved the dogs but to no avail. The guy was a nutbar . I don't think you understand hounds and how they are when hot on a track . The racket alone when they have a coon treed is almost deafening so they wouldn't hear a recall command . They get so wound up it would be like trying to stop a racehorse in mid stride .
TD
We yell and scream,a lot,over people trespassing and we,also,have laws against it,but,we need to understand that trespassing anywhere in the US is regarded differently than it is here. Fully 90% of the total landmass of the lower 48 states is private property and the owners DO NOT mean,maybe. I know in New York state,trespassing fines are HUGE and if you manage to get your butt shot at,that's just tough bananas. Just hope the farmer's a lousy shot.
The hound had been retrieved and was leashed when the land owner basically executed it. He then demanded that the other hound which was already crated in a vehicle be taken out to be executed also. I can't believe there wasn't a loss of human life in this. I would say the landowner is alive only because he was the only one armed at the time.
400bigbear,Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
Can you please send me a link where it states they tried to contact the landowner? Any information I have looked at says there was no number posted to contact the landowner. I agree the landowner was a nutbar and I am not giving him a free pass to shoot the hounds. While I haven't run with many hounds (a couple of deer hunts), the hounds going onto posted private property doesn't give the hound owner permission to tresspass to retrieve the hounds unless he talks to the landowner first. I understand how a pack can get away from a person but that person is still responsible for his hounds is he not? He still needs to try to respect other people's boundaries. You say the racket alone when they tree a coon is deafening, why not stop them before they get wound up? We aren't talking about coyote hounds here where they run for miles, these are coon hounds.
Dyth
i can can see you have never hunted coon hounds , I've only owned one out of many that you could call out of the woods and once he was started on a coon you waited till he treed , coon dogs aren't breed for obedience , once that leash I'd unsnapped they go hunting and you get them when they tree , and I've hunted with hounds that can cover a mile in short order, it's just the nature of the game .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
im very surprised that someone didn't die over this as the hound culture in the south is much different then here , someone posted about Lawson's dog earlier in the thread and yes he was paid for a dog shot , I remember another good young hound shot off a tree a number of years back when a new house was built in a bush by someone who had spent most of his life in the city , the hound went about 2 miles before coming treed in the bush in question and the new resident who was awakened and scared by the barking went out and shot the dog off the tree , the hunter got there minutes late and ended up having to shoot his hound with his .22 as it was laying there wounded , the police were called and charges laid , the dog was paid for by the landowner , a poor situation for sure
Then I stand corrected. While finding a hound on a landowner's property doesn't give that landowner license to shoot the hound, having a hound cross into another's property doesn't give the hound owner carte blanche to retrieve the hound especially when the land is posted no tresspassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by trappermatt
Dyth
They do the exact same thing, can run for miles. The hound picked up the track, followed it down the river bank. then followed the track across the river onto the land owners property where he treed the coon. I believe part of the defense was the land owner was baiting deer with corn, which is like a magnet to coons and naturally the coon crossed the river to feed, hense the dog followed the track. A coon hound can take a track and follow it no differently than a hound that is used to run deer or coyotes, so saying there is a difference in the distance one can travel over the other two is not valid...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Im im not saying it does , and I've been involved in trying to cut hounds off and catch them before they got somewhere they shouldn't be , weather it's posted land or a highway , some states have different laws regarding free casting and retrieval of hounds as well
trappermatt,Quote:
Originally Posted by trappermatt
All I am trying to say is while the landowner was defineatley in the wrong for shooting the hound and acting the way he did, the hound owners weren't 100% innocent of wrong doing either. Here is a link which provides a bit more information: http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News/...152013042650PM. It seems the guys were from out of town and didn't know who owned the land (they should have found out before they went hunting) and Arkansas doesn't have a right to retrieve law. To me, the incident could have been avoided by doing a bit of research.
Dyth
Bo D,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo D
As I stated before, I stand corrected about coon hounds (I thought coon hounds would work a bit closer to humans). While the landowner was baiting deer with corn which attracted the coons and hence the coon hounds, it still doesn't give the hound owners permission to break the law. The hounds might not know the law but humans should.
Dyth
Im not saying they may have not been at fault , I have a buddy in Arkansas that tells me trapping on certain public lands down there leads to a lot of problems with hound owners and things can get to the point of being dangerous so don't think I'm saying all hound owners are Lilly white when it comes to following the law , on the other hand I've been to coon trials both here in ontario and south of the border were when you are put in a cast you have no idea were you are going or know anything about the land or the owners you are relying on a guide who may or may not have a dog hunting in the cast with you, so as you can see its possible for things like this to happen with no bad intent on the dog owners part , I've guided in the past for a Ukc hunt that was held here locally and that was one thing I made sure I wasn't going to have problems with dogs upsetting landowners if they strayed and I knocked on lots of doors to make sure we wouldn't have problems because I knew scat can happen as the old saying goes .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Dyth . What I took from the article was that since no phone number was posted on the No Trespassing sign that the lads had tried to contact . That's my interpretation . You need to get a better understanding of hounds . I had permission to a few thousand acres here to hunt on and one lad who was anti had a 1 acre lot . Sometimes the hounds would blow through his lot while on a chase . You expect me to stop them ? I don't know the finer details here but lets use some reasonable common sense . Our hounds too were threatened to be shot on sight when we asked the 1 acre lad if he had seen them . Well that didn't go over well . It's not like we wanted them to go through his lot . I get the odd hound coming in the yard here or running in our bush, that have come for many miles . I don't immediately come to the conclusion that somebody set them out to intentionally hunt my property . Hounds are hounds and bred to hunt .
TD
trappermatt,Quote:
Originally Posted by trappermatt
Your actions should be followed by other hound owners. That is what makes you a responsible hound (dog) owner. I waterfowl and if I cripple a goose and he sails into a neighbouring landowner's field, I can't send my retriever to go get that bird until I have permission. The smart thing to do is what you do and ask before hand and explain the circumstances of what might happen and if I have permission to send my retriever to go get the bird on the neighbour's land. I think alot of what we are seeing could be avoided if people took the time to plan ahead.
You say you have been to coon trials here in Ontario and south of the border where you have no idea where you are going or know anything about the land/landowners and are relying on a guide. This wasn't the case. These guys were unfamiliar with the area and should have done it better in my opinion. You seem to do it the right way, why couldn't these guys?
Dyth
Ok Dyth . And if that landowner whose field your goose fell in wasn't home , will you send your dog or let it rot there ? What if your dog trailed a cripple onto my property . Shall I shoot your dog ?
TD
with only knowing what we read about the incident none of us really know the whole story , only bits and pieces make it pretty hard for me to pass judgement , but I can say to shoot a dog that was on a mans lead is pretty low and in my opinion nutsQuote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
If the landowner wasn't home, I still don't have permission to send my dog to retrieve it. I respect a landowner's property lines. It is no different than if I was deer hunting where a wounded deer crossed over a property line which I couldn't acquire permission for. It would tear me up inside but I have to obey the law. I can't assume I have permission and I certainly can't get a pass if the land is posted and I put my gun away.Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
And at no point have I ever said shooting the dog was acceptable.
You won't get any arguement from me about shooting a dog on lead is low. But in this case, there is plenty of wrong by everyone involved and a dog who was doing his job paid the price.Quote:
Originally Posted by trappermatt
OK Dyth . My cat is sitting beside your car and your dog chases it into my yard . Shall I shoot your dog ?
This is exactly how silly your point is becoming .
TD
Well, Dyth has not suggested that the landowner had the right to shoot the dog, only that the hunters could have been more responsible re contacting the landowner.
However ... in reply to that point, I suggest that if they had got hold of him, his likely response would have been "Stay the hell off my land and by the way I'm a-gonna shoot yer dogs."
There was a case in Montana, where people are pretty militant about trespassers, where a landowner not only shot a cougar hound but then refused to let the owner retrieve the carcass. (The landowner paid a hefty fine.) Some people are just jerks, and there is no dealing with them.
TD,Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
At NO point have I ever said shooting the dog is acceptable. Stop trying to attribute that type of thinking to me.
I will use your example. First of all, yes my dog can and will chase cats (I am not sure any dog out who wouldn't lol). Second of all, my dog doesn't go off leash unsupervised, I know specifically where he is at all times. Third, my dog has been trained to be recalled. If he did chase your cat onto your property, I would recall him immediately, I would then apologize to you for having poor control over my dog and let you know I will try my utmost to not have him violate your property lines again.
You are making up silly examples of how I apparantly would justify shooting a dog when it violates a property line. I don't have a problem with a dog violating a property line as long as the situation was rectified and an apology was given. In this circumstance with the coon hounds, rectifying the situation should mean finding out who the landowner of a posted property and asking his permission to go on his land to retrieve your hound from his property. I think that is an acceptable solution to this problem. Simply putting your guns away and then tresspassing isn't. The hound owner tresspassing does not excuse the landowner's actions.
Dyth
The landowner could have definately said that which at that point, it becomes a property protection issue and the police can become involved. Even if the landowner threatened to keep the dog, that is theft and the police can become involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
But that isn't the situation we are talking about. The hound owners had no legal right to cross that landowner's property line. They willfully ignored the posted signs and disrespected the landowners wishes that no one come onto his land unless they have written permission from him. How many of us would be ok with that if the situation were reversed?
Dyth
But the outcome is just the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
Your point is well taken re showing respect for a landowner, but my point is simply that the hunters' actions probably had nothing to do with the outcome here. The landowner is clearly a nutbar.
Agreed the landowner is a nutbar.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
As for the hunter's actions having nothing to do with the outcome, I am not entirely convinced. Who knows if they had talked to the surrounding landowners and explained the situation, things might have turned out differently. At the very least the hound owners would have known to stay clear of this clown't property.
Dyth
Well Dyth we all have reasonable expectations of what is right . The landowner in question may have just come along and noticed a truck while the lads retrieved their hounds . Your dog could be just a pup chasing my cat and stayed at the base of a tree in my yard while I was away at work . Certainly you would come get him before I returned . I know your not onside with the shooter but like you I can come up with scenarios of what could have,should have etc be done . Obviously the landowner was a threat to the hounds . I would do anything to retrieve him before he was shot by even trespassing if need be . I am not a trespasser nor do I think just having hounds gives me the right to trespass but most dog owners are attached emotionally too, similar to the love of a child .
This clown had every intention to shoot these hounds from the get go is my opinion . I think for most this would cause us to attempt to retrieve them with the least amount of hoopla . On the sly so to speak . Just like in my case . Landowner said he would shoot our hounds on sight . I'm not going to wait around for him to return or anything . I'm going to trespass, grab them and get the h'ell out of dodge and hope I don't get caught . Most houndlovers know to avoid issues with landowners . We don't look for confrontations . These dogs may have travelled a great distance . Reasonable precautions can be taken but there is no set guideline to follow .
Yes I get worked up over this topic and even in my misspent youth been known to throw down with trespassers .LOL That's the evil of the beast . I can't help that . LOL But I also understand hounds and dogs in general too . Mind you I've always been reasonable as a landowner and yes humble and apologetic too if our hounds trespassed .
Should I look at this from both sides ? Maybe to be PC I should but nobody can ever accuse me of being PC . LOL This is cut and dried for me .
TD
Your right Welsh and I respect the Dyth's point also in regards to respecting landowners . I've been on both sides of the situation . It's a situation that makes us respond passionately .Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Dyth . I take things like this to heart because I have had boots on the ground but when it comes down to it , I don't dislike you for taking a landowners thoughts of trespassing as your point . I just HATE it when it comes forward in situations such as this . LOL
TD
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
It must have been a semi auto gun, because if Newby had a slow stroker, a boltgun, or a single, somebody would have checked Mr Newby's oil during the cycle.
There is now legislation in a particular State for almost this exact scenario except it was the lawyer with land and some deer dogs being shot.
The hunters did EVERYTHING correct! The most important thing is they took their guns to the truck before returning to the dogs. If it wasn't for this sick maniac they would have retrieved their dogs, the racoon lives, and all is good.
This poor dog, doing what it was bred to do is executed in front of its helpless owner. Remember there was only one gun at the scene.
This nutbar deserves to be made an example of with a severe penalty.
Given the state of affairs wrt to gun ownership and all that stuff,it's a wonder no one's already shot the SOB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
TD,Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
I have multiple times voiced my respect for property lines. I am not sure how many more times I need to tell you that before it registers in your brain. You make up scenarios like I would leave a pup alone treeing a cat on your property and then retrieve it without your knowledge. In reality, my dog doesn't go off leash unless he has an e-collar on him so I can ensure their recall is 100%. I consider that to be a good dog owner's responsibility. So no my dog/pup won't be treeing your cat for hours on end while you are at work waiting for me to retrieve it 5 minutes before you get home. You probably won't believe that statement or try to come up with a scenario where you are certain I am not a good/respectful dog owner but it is the truth. You seem to think I have no love for my hunting buddy because I wouldn't break the law for him while you would. In truth, I have the foresight not to let the situation get to the point where I have to break the law.
At the end of the day, while there are circumstances where breaking the law is unavoidable and permissable, this situation wasn't one of them and I will tell you why. The hound owners had no knowledge of the landowner or his reaction to their hound being on his property. They didn't ask. You seem to be desparately trying to justify that they would be allowed to get their hounds by trespassing based on your experiences with a landowner. I am saying they had no justification to trespass because they had no foreknowledge of the consequences of having their hound on that landowner's property. We now can logically argue the landowner was probably going to shoot the hound but when the hound owners decided to trespass, they didn't have that knowledge and that is why they were wrong trespassing.
This is my last post in this thread. You seem to want to invent situations where it is acceptable to trespass instead of wanting to talk about this situation. While I also respect your opinions and thoughts, I have said my opinion about this andyou obviously don't welcome it.
Dyth
Are you growing weed on your property? What are you hiding?
I actually thought I had said my piece Dyth but and just like you, because of your statements, I just exampled how ludicruos and easy it is to come up with a story or scenario to justify a point of view . Any jackarse can do that, including me . You started that just to argue or debate . Or is it trolling . ? LOL You have to get up before breakfast to tell me anything about property lines , trespass issues or anything else in the outdoors . Can I learn something from you ? I'm sure I can and I try to keep an open mind but this is not my first rodeo and I post from experience not the armchair .
You think you have foresight ? Come see me lad as a friend to you and your bud . A situation can develope that only my years can foresee but heah my dog does not live in a crate 24/7 so I am only 80 % right when he's out free ranging in yard . You see I can let my spaniel free range in any yard without fences even in the city . Can you make that claim ? Do I leash or crate ? Yes I do but rarely . Ol Charlie is a mature boy but has issues . I'll bet one yell of yours against one of mine that I can stop your boy and mine while on a chase . I can put yours in that mode alone and you won't stop him , beyond an e-collar even .
A lad on here just recently said it and he is right . Even the best trained retriever breaks .
Touch wood I have always had foresight enough to keep the hounds and bird dogs safe but sheet happens . Come see me . I don't have yard fenced though .
TD
ROTFLMAO . Good one that came out of nowhere , LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Steak Maker
TD
I've always had this thought, when land owners get really pissed when I wade creeks and rivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steak Maker