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I've had it in my mind to buy a 20 ga semi for my wife to shoot for softer recoil and then I got to thinking what about a soft shooting 12 ga. semi shooting 2 3/4 shells? There seems to be a lot more decently priced higher end 12 ga semis out there vs. 20 ga. There is the odd lower end 20 ga (Weatherby SA-08 for example) around but I have mixed feelings about them. I've read good and bad.
Does anyone have any real world comparison info between the two?
Thanks
Dave
20 ga guns tend to be a bit lighter than the 12's and so felt recoil can actually be worse. My wife can comfortably shoot an SXP with 3" steel loads, she calls my SX3 a sissy gun because it's such a soft kicker. Any nice gas gun in 12 ga I think she could handle even 3".
Agreed. Some 410s have bigger kick than 12 gauges due to the lack of weight in the gun. I'd buy the 12 and use lighter loads.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris1395
I can only compare a Beretta A400 12g vs. Benelli M2 20g.
The A400 shooting 2-3/4 is feather light. SO soft.
The M2 20g has less. its a bit lighter, so it feels almost like a toy, but there is little to no kick to it at all.
on to 3" shells:
almost equal. but if i had to pick - the 20g is still a softer shooting gun by a fraction.
if i had to choose?
12g with 2-3/4 shells. get a good soft shooting semi with 2-3/4 shells and you'll love it (she'll love it too)
I borrowed a 20 for my wife to try. We were shooting 2 3/4 skeet loads. She found my 870 12 had less recoil so we wound up getting an 11/87 12 and cut the stock down. She loves it
I got a 20ga for the fiancee, for her it is more the physical weight of the gun then the recoil.
Anyone can be built up to shoot heavier recoil, but if you cannot lift the gun up and shoot without fatigue you have a problem.
This is a very good point and definitely a concern with my wife. She is not one that is going to "build up" to the recoil. If it's not soft shooting from the get go she just won't shoot it. Weight is also a concern. I'm looking at a Browning Maxus 3" with a 26" barrel. It's a claimed 6 pounds 14 oz which I believe because I have one with a 28" barrel and it is a light gun. It is also soft shooting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If recoil is the only concern (if she can handle the weight of the 12ga fine), I don't find the newer 12 guages to have any more recoil, and I find I cannot tell the recoil difference in my Maxus between a 2.75" or a 3.5" shell, the 3.5" is just louder. Recoil systems in the top end 12 guages are excellent now and the weight of the 12 guage guns has come down alot as well. I can only speak for Brownings, but my older A500 made in 1991 weighs over a pound heavier than the new Maxus or Silver, but the new guns have less recoil ... innovations have made them much more user friendly.
Another consideration as you spoke of price ... I expect to get good quality 20 guage rounds it is more expensive than good quality 12 guage rounds ... over time this will pay for the difference in a good 12 guage original price.
Get the 20 gauge semi.
I've got the similar model to the SA-08. It's a Mossberg SA-20, same gun, same manufacturer ( Armsan in Turkey).
Beauty gun, hardly any recoil, light and points well. I own 7 shotties, it's one of my faves.
20 gauge is not any more expensive than 12.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadwall
I buy 1000s of rounds each year. both.
What about a 20 gauge (for gun weight) modified with a really good recoil pad? Would that solve the OP's problems?
A proper fitting gun should be the most important criteria. If it is awkward for her to handle then recoil will seem worse. I would think the 20g frame would feel better to a smaller shooter.
The actual felt recoil between a 2 3/4" 1 1/8oz 20G, vs a 2 3/4" 1 1/8oz 12G is only a pound. Not a heck of a lot of difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
The difference is gun weight, semi vs. repeater, and size.
The 1 lb difference between the 20 and the 12 in felt recoil is somewhat mitigated by the added weight of the 12, but that added weight is also something that is carried and swung. I'm a big advocate for 20 gauge, as a good general purpose gun, especially for smaller shooters. As I mentioned previously, the 20G semi I have has what amounts to a whisper of recoil compared to some of my 12 gauge O/Us, and even my older 12G semi.
I agree with you. The reality is she won't be shooting very often. If she shot more then I would definitely look for something that fit her really well and it would essentially be her gun. That is part of my concern with buying a 20 ga that would be too small for me to use. The weatherby SA-08 is very short in the LOP (14") which would be great for her but not so great for me if I wanted to use it. I guess I'm looking for a best of both worlds scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Get the 20. It will be easier for her. She will want to shoot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonDave
Get the 12, you will have a gun that you will shoot, but she may not be keen on, particularly if the LOP means she doesn't get a proper mount on the gun, and sight picture.
Buy the 20, for her and she will be a shooting companion, you can buy a 12 for yourself later.....there's lots of them around.
There are aftermarket "slip on" recoil pads that you could use to lengthen the gun when you carry it. Ugly but effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonDave
I own a 11-87 in 20 and shoot 3" steel loads through it and love it! Recoil is minimal and gives me faster follow up shots. I only use it on small water hunts but find it to be a deadly gun!
I believe Remington makes the 11-87 in a youth model 20 guage. If she is small in stature,that might be the way to go along with a soft recoil pad.
I can only talk about what I shoot, and my 20 gauge benelli montefeltro makes my 12gauge SBE II obsolete. I primarily use it for ducks. It is light, cycles like a champ, hardly any recoil which enables me to stay on target for follow up shots. Id go 20gauge semi, if your concerned about $ then a used Beretta Al series, or urika in 20 would do well, or even a used Franchi AL-48, or Raptor would suffice.
As said, proper fit should be top priority.
I went through all of this with my girlfriend. She's very small and find a shotgun that fit well was impossible because even the youth models are usually just cut down versions of their reg model.
That said, a 12ga. shell loaded with 1oz. going 1200fps is going to have the same recoil inertia as a 20ga. of the same load. Felt recoil is reduced by things like fit, gun weight, etc
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i would go with a 12 gauge semi, and honestly for a female shooter spend the extra cash and buy a benelli, just for the fact that they are so light, i have been a browning guy for a good part of my hunting years. tried and true, up until i shot a benelli sbe 2 and i was sold. hands down the nicest shouldering and shooting gun on the market, puts browning winchester, beretta and remington to shame.
and the bonus next to no kick. i was shooting 3 1/2 inch #2 s and felt like nothing compared to he maxus.
I'd be recommending the same as well. People can talk up their twenty gauges all they want, but they are not and never will be an everyday waterfowling gun. I've shot 20s enough in the blind, and yes they work, but if you're looking for something that will work well in any situation, a 12 gauge is what you want. I have yet to meet a woman who can not handle the recoil of a properly fit 12 gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
Personally, I'd take a look at the Browning lineup. They offer the "micro midas" in a few of their semis which have a 3" chamber and a shortened length of pull. If you go with a wood stock, you can have it customized further by a stock fitter to fit the shooter's dimensions. I shoot a 3.5" Browning Silver myself, and have no complaints whatsoever. Gun functions flawlessly both in the blind and with 7/8oz trap loads at the range, and it just so happens that the factory gun fits me like a glove. With anything less than 1 1/8oz, the Benelli SBE2 will not cycle. If it's also going to be a range gun, take that into consideration and stick with a 3" chamber.
Just my .02.
-Nick
The browning silver is hands down the best gun browning has on the market,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
cycles everytime and fits like a glove , I have shot the browning lineup and hands down went back to the silver .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
The OP made no mention of waterfowling whatsoever. Did you read his post?
With all due respect, if you haven't met a woman who couldn't handle the recoil of. Properly fit 12 gauge, then you haven't shot with very many.
i shoot competitive skeet, and by and large 20 gauge is the preference for women, and younger shooters. These are people who also drop 3-5k on a gun, so fit is obviously accounted for.
It is posted in the waterfowl forum, that is listed about an inch above the post? I used to shoot sporting clays every weekend for years and ran across a few women, the majority of them shooting 12s. I have also seen several people drop a good chunk of change on a gun and it either not fit or they had it adjusted wrong. My advice would be, if you know someone with some guns you may be considering go out and try them with your significant other and see what they prefer. I think the only facts here are different guns fit different people and just because someone is small does not mean they are weak, maybe they can handle a 12. I also know if it was my wife she would want some type of astetic value to the gun as well:) (sorry do't know how to spell astetic). To both nick an mojo everyone knows the best gun hands down is the Belgian made Browning Gold 3.5 30" Stalker, I mean come on:):)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
LOL. I typically don't look at the forum that the posts go in. I just go to new posts. *Egg on face*.:tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter1
I too love my Browning Gold!!Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter1
i shoot trap as well , and I find it funny when guys bring there wives out and they have there 2500 to 3000 dollar custom fitted 20 gauge , they shoot one round and do well but than you talk them into shooting a nice semi , they shoot the 12 and before you know it the 20 is up for sale , if your going to use a gun for hunting 99 percent of women and even young adults can handle the 12 gauge don't wast your money on a 20 it will sit in the cabinet and never be used , unless your chasing bunnies and want a lighter gun in that case buy a 4 10 .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Funny. I own 7 shotties, and when I go out in the field, it's usually the 20 that I take.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
The 12 Gauge is my gun for skeet.
Your opinion that a 20 gauge is a waste of money is just that....an opinion. If it were truly a waste as you so nicely put it, then manufacturers wouldn't be making as many models in both 12 and 20 like they are.
The only thing I hunt with a 12g anymore are turkeys. If I was still into waterfowl I would of course use a 12.
Ducks drop just the same shooting a 20. The main reason I use my 12s for ducks at all is because it's easier to find steel for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
I imagine if you were to shoot tungsten matrix a 20 would be even more effective, may need a second mortgage though:)
I have, actually. When they first came out I gave a box of them a go. Pattern density was GTG out to about 50Y. Lol, but I wanted to see if they went down in price per box....and it hasn't happened yet.....so steel it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter1
I sure did read his post. Considering this is the waterfowl forum, and I know Dave is a dedicated waterfowler, I put two and two together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
I'm an avid trap, skeet and sporting clays shooter and am a dedicated waterfowl hunter. I've had the opportunity to shoot with many women on the range, and like I said, have yet to meet a woman who can not handle the recoil of a properly fit 12 gauge. You can easily drop 3-5K on a factory fitted gun. You're taking my post out of context when you talk about the overall preference on the skeet field, my post was largely geared towards hunting. You're talking close in shooting here.
Talk up your 20s all you want, they will never live up to the 12 when it comes to popularity in the duck blind and the wide variety of situations that they can cover. If a woman can handle the recoil of a 12, why limit her with a 20?
-Nick
And as I posted a page ago...I was wrong. I don't often look at the forum the thread is started in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite
No argument as to the 12s suitability over the 20 for waterfowling. I don't discount the 20 as being a waste, as another poster so eloquently put it either. I actually go afield with my 20s more than my 12s, and anyone on here who has met me will attest, I'm not a small guy.
Guess it's a matter of perception. I don't look at the 20 as limiting anything.
You suggest a 410 in the same sentence that you say a 20 gauge is a waste of money?Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
Thanks for all of the info and opinions guys. All very valid. As usual a few good debates were sparked as well. :D
If my wife said to me....Dave I want to go hunting with you as much as possible and I want to shoot trap with you and I want a gun that is mine then I would do all the right things to find her a gun that she liked and fit her properly. That is not the case. She sat out for turkey a couple of times last year but never fired a shot. We were supposed to try dove hunting a couple of times but it never happened and I never got her into the duck blind.......But....if I do get her out more I am mainly looking for a gun that is not going to kick the crap out of her after the first couple of shots that is why it was mainly the difference in recoil between the 2 guns that I was looking for. CocoZoo and I few others answered that question.
And yes it it primarily a waterfowl gun I was looking for because that is what I hunt the most.
Dave
The whole process was a bit time consuming for us, and she went through three guns before settling on the third.
Woman are built way different than men (obviously lol). That includes longer necks, higher cheek bones, and those great things we all love that protrude out of their chests. So depending on their build, they'll manage to develop all sorts of bad techniques when mounting the gun to compensate for it. Like mounting a gun that is too long on their arm, not shoulder, climbing the stock to account for a low comb, canting the gun to keep the butt pad from pinching thier boob. Etc etc.
Because of my girlfriends size and shape, we settled on a cut down 12ga. O/U and had an adjustable comb and butt pad installed. For ducks she shot 1/8oz 2.75“ steel loads, and for skeet, I load her 1oz. @ 1150fps. Now that she can mount the gun properly and see down the rib, she's shooting fine with no pain.
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Hey Dave I have the rem 11 87 compact and if you and the wife would like to try it I am in Norwich Dutch
Thanks for the offer Dutch. I've got my eye on a Maxus. Just have to decide if I'm ready to commit to it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhunter
If you read correctly you will see I suggested a 4 10 for rabbits , if you want an all around multi purpose gun buy a 12 gauge , if your only targeting certain animals but accordingly .Quote:
Originally Posted by mox72
I was given a mossberg pump 4 10 that I use for rabbits only because it is so light . When bunny hunting you are walking a long ways .
I have just ordered a new A5 in 20 gauge. I'm getting older and the recoil starts to hurt after a while. I remember in the lead days hunting geese with a .410 never missed a shot. I would load down my shotshells to no more than an ounce in 12 gauge I did'nt need the shot. Still don't.
The best thing you can do in this process is take your wife to the store, try on a few and have her discuss the options with you and the staff person. If you can arrange it, have her shoot different models at a range. She needs to be the one to decide what fits best for her.
Small shooter = small receiver that's scaled down, in my opinion. My brother has a benelli semi-auto 20ga that's feather light. The occasional shot shot with a slightly higher felt recoil will be better for her compared to a heavy gun tiring her as she walks around for the day. Fatigue will ruin the day before recoil does.
Another mistake many make is trying a gun on with light clothing. Make sure she is wearing the same coat she wears while hunting. Most women don't like the cold so wear heavier coats which can affect length of pull requirements.
Very Important! !Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I did this mistake once.
Wear your hunting clothes to try the gun on for size.
X100!
I don't see a 20g A5 in the Browning website. Do you mean you bought an older Auto 5?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
12 gauge 2/34 . Theres nothjng you cant do with it. People seem to think now that these heavier loads are available like 3 1/2 that wildlife has gone on protest against the 2/34 shells theyve been killed with for years
The difference is steel shot vs lead shotQuote:
Originally Posted by Farmin n huntin
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
I don't find a whole lot of difference any more. Sure, when steel first came out, it sucked. Nowadays, its pretty darn good IMO. I have no problems killing stuff with it anyways.
S.
Agreed on this, although the lead days for waterfowl were before my time. Seems a lot of guys blame steel shot, instead of their shooting capabilities!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinker
-Nick
Steel (as in the actual metal) hasnt changed consistency in the years since it was first introduced. The shells themselves may have changed in construction (new wads, different shaped pellets etc), but this is reflected in price ie "premium ammo". Plain jane steel shot is the same as it was twenty years ago. Ive got boxes from that era and performance isnt noticeably different with them then it is with the cheaply made steel today.
But as mentioned, there been advancements in the way the shell components themselves are designed. These have leveled the playing field considerably, but you pay the price for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Check out the price of lead shot these days. Its nuts. A box of lead shot was more expensive than the steel I shoot for waterfowl.
You can kill ducks dead in the air with 2 3/4 steel shells all day long if you can get birds in range, and center them in your pattern. The biggest misconception with waterfowl hunting these days is that bigger is better, when its just not. These hot shot newbies just don't know any better....yet......A miss is a miss, no matter what size shell or shot your shooting ;)
S.
I shoot almost all 2 3/4" shells. I like the price better, lol.