looking for moose/bear gun. want something for short to medium range,used reliable bush gun. What should I be looking for?
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looking for moose/bear gun. want something for short to medium range,used reliable bush gun. What should I be looking for?
jaz
Can you further define short to medium range? I think what you are really asking is what cartridge is best suited for both moose and bear. After you get that part decided then you can look at the range of rifles that chamber that particular cartridge.
I have a 338 Win Mag for big game. I like this cartridge because it provides extended range (I want to hunt Elk in Alberta). It is a very popular cartridge in the north (Alaska/Yukon) for bear.
I am a reloader so I have lots of options to tailor the load to deliver the performance needed for various situations. To this end, you might want to consider looking at available ammo to understand the versatility or limits of any particular cartridge.
For short to medium range in Ontario I am thinking that a 30-06 is at the same time the most versatile and also the most common.
No doubt you will get lots of input since this is a pretty wide open question.
Pick something in 270 or larger that you can find ammo easily for. 7mm, 308, 3006, 338, 300WM, 303 etc they'll all do the trick.
You dont need to be too picky. As an aside I'd probably leave out the 3030 or other old lever gun cartridges (45-70 excluded).
I myself hunt all Ontario big game with a 308. Cheap ammo available everywhere, shoots effectively further then I can (300m) short action and generally milder recoil then a 3006.
270, 308, 30-06. Ammo is readily available, and comes in a variety of loads. Check the past threads on caliber choices, the benefits have been discussed over pages. Plus in the more common calibers, the opportunity to find a decent used gun exists as well.
Bolt is always a very good choice for a rifle. Simple, solid, and accurate.
Have a look here, there are literally 100s of articles that are very good on everything from what's a good all around caliber, to what load you use on woodchuck...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifles_index_hunting.htm
You can't go wrong with the venerable 30-06. !!!!
looking for a gun with a shorter barrel for carrying through dense bush, 30-60, 308. just wondering if their is a particular model that has the shorter barrel and still has the accuracy
Are you looking for something shorter than 22 inch barrel?
Remington model 7 in 308 with a 20in barrel would be pretty handy.
Vtr rem
Rem Model 7 and Ruger M77 are both shorter then usual. I believe the Remington has a shorter stock too, whereas the Ruger has a normal length of pull and shorter barrel. Also an average 308 is shorter then a 3006 by virtue of it being a short action cartridge as opposed to a long action cartridge.
Im a big fan of my Ruger M77 in 308. Nice and handy for walking through the tight stuff.
Remington 760/7600 30-06 with a 3-9 with see through mounts
I know several people with see through mounts, none of them have ever used them on an animal. They all go straight to the scope. Shorter scope mounts are better as they allow a better cheek weld for ease of sighting and accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guelph1981
I've got a nice Zastava M70 Mannlicher in .308. 21" barrel. It's ideal as a brush gun.
For a bush gun hunting moose or bear I would recommend one of the common .30 cal cartridges that the others have listed (I prefer .308). I would lean towards a repeater though, lever or semi-auto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
I'd like to see that one too!
Never been a fan of those,nor have I seen anyone use them.I am not nocking them,if they work for you then go for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
I also like 30-06 because you can neck the suck out of it and get .270.
LOL. Beers cold, cave's got heat...let me know bud...Quote:
Originally Posted by mox72
I like my .30-06 Remington 742 Woodsmaster Carbine (18.5" barrel)...it may suffer in the longest reach of a longer barreled 30-06....but where I hunt 200 yds is the absolute max shot.
Years ago, I used guns with see-through bases, and regarded the open sights as my primary sighting system, with the scope as something "nice to have" if I had a long shot and lots of time. After a few years I found that I never used the scope, so I just took it off. A little different perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
As to the question, I'd recommend a BLR in .308 or (if you reload) .358, or something like the Remington 760, 7600 or 750 in 30-06 or .308 with a carbine length barrel.
I developed a 30-06 load for my Remington 742 (22 in. barrel) that I really liked. When I switched to my Rem. 760 with an 18 1/2 inch barrel, I tried out the same load. It graphed all of one fps. slower - no real loss due to barrel length.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy
45-70 single shot $309.00 or lever action $619.00 both to be had in Ontario from Cabelas/BP/Lebaron. If you reload the dies are $41.00 for lee pacesetters and lead casting mold is $41.00 also. Good out to 100M on average 4" group or smaller with iron sights. Was looking into one today online, considered a knockdown gun.
I'll second that M77 Ruger. Well made, smooth, decent action and accurate. .308 or 30-06 are top caliber choices.
I'll also add I'm not a fan of see-through mounts. Seems when you're pushing through brush they catch on everything. Pick a low power scope with 40 mm objective lens.
Rick I am a little surprised that you could chrony them at such a close speed. Did you test on the same day? I would be curious to understand how they could perform so close together given the different barrel lengths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Teal
From your brief description I think .308 falls perfectly into your wheelhouse.
Ample bullet variants available and a selection of any action style that tickles your fancy.
semi, bolt, pump and lever.
honnestly if you want something that can stand the test of time get yourself a 303 jungle carbine
leaning towards the ruger 308 or a rem carbine not sure if I can go new, so I will keep an eye for whats available. thanks for info
You don't really need new. One glance and you can usually tell if a firearm has been neglected or not. Even if it has cosmetic issues, they don't really lose in the accuracy department and your money will be well spent.
I'm a big ruger fan. Currently use a M77 African in 338 and a Leupold 2.5 x 8. Very accurate ( after bedding and Timney trigger) but heavy. For deer I use a Ruger 77 RSI 18.5" barrel mannlicher stock in 308 with 1.5 x 4 leupold very light and handy rifle if I were to buy a new moose rifle I would take a hard look at one of the new Ruger Guide-guns 20 inch barrel, chambered in 30-06 and up with a a 1.5 x 4 on it. At the end of the anything in 308 up will do the trick pick up a few and see what feels right.
You are not to far from shooters choice in Waterloo,they carry a good selection of used rifles and the inventory is always changing.In my experiences with them they have always been fair to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazboxer
John
short range how about a 12 guage with a rifled barrel and red dot scope
For short to medium range a .444 or .45-70 in a short barreled Marlin would do the trick on moose or bear.
My dad used to have a Remington model 7600 carbine in .30-06 that was surprisingly accurate. You could reach out a little further with the .30-06 as well.
Should budget permit, the following will be a great choice. Note, the product is not on gun shelves yet...perhaps later in the year (hopefully)...... http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/364-ce...7_CARBINE.aspxQuote:
Originally Posted by jazboxer
The recommendation for something such as the Zastava (or a CZ) in a Mannlicher FS is also sound i.e. if you prefer such stock configuration. However, I've found that Zastava rifles need to be tweaked in order to optimize performance. The CZ product will deliver right out of the box....very rarely one gets a specimen that may need "adjustments."
In a less expensive rifle, the Ruger American in a compact version will serve well provided the shorter LOP suits you. Last year, I shot one in .30-06 and found that to be very accurate with off-the-shelf ammo. Fit and finish is quite acceptable given the price point. I'm aware of one in .308 that shoots factory loads under an inch @ 100yds. The actions are built to scale....EDIT: I may be wrong regarding the action...need to verify.
He asked for short to medium range thats why i suggested it. You dont need a scope for close range. See through mounts for close distance with the added bonus of a scope if anything wanders in that is out of his comfort zone. Just have to prsctice using both to get comfortable. Plus the pump action will allow quick follow up shot if needed. To be honest most of the guys i know that have them only use the scope as well. I like the versatility myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
.375 H&H, hand load it up or down for any big game.
jazboxer,Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
Not sure how experienced you are or how much you weigh, but despite skypilot's suggestion (he actually knows a lot about this stuff) I would consult this table
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
to get an idea of how much recoil you want to enjoy when you pull the trigger. I have a 338 Win Mag that I just love to shoot which has about the same recoil as a .375 H&H. That being said, none of my friends will shoot it after the first time they pulled the trigger.
It is generally accepted that the upper end of recoil for most shooters is about 20-21 ft/lbs which is the 30-06.
I would recommend against looking at any of the 30 cal magnums since they don't provide a lot of additional performance vs the recoil and powder you need to feed them. If you want big game out to 200 yds and beyond then yes the .375 H&H or a 338 Win Mag will deliver. Alternatively so will a 30-06 or a 308 Win with good shot placement and the proper choice of bullets.
I use a .3030. win carbine for short distances out to 200 yards for all big game, Through a dense bush this is probably the most common rifle. Out to 400 yards I use a 99 Savage in .308. Now I'm going to a 7mm Rem Mag for longer distances. Bigger is not always better. To me a short range rifle works better. You may also want to check out Kent Aitkins shop just outside Listowel. Very very knowledgeable man. Better with firearms than George or his crew at Shooters choice.
Remington 760 or 7600 in 308 or 30-06 with a 1 1/2 x 4 or 2 x 7 quality scopeQuote:
Originally Posted by jazboxer
What happened to your custom built .416 Taylor for those 1000 yard shots?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
If you are looking for a short rifle that can provide tight groups, I would look closely at at the Browning Levers in 308.
They are very handy in the bush and the lever/bolt design of the action provides the accuracy.
It really depends on the gun in my opinion. Some of my rifles have poor irons sights so a low powered scope proves faster for me. Scopes arent necessarily about shooting long range.
Another benefit to a scope is that at low light situations they will improve your accuracy by gathering available light and brightening your sight picture (over irons).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guelph1981
The tests were done several years apart, and were averages. I just used this to emphasize that any differences are of little or no importance. I was using IMR 4320 powder at a charge the loading book said would approach 2700 fps. My actual velocities were more in the 2500 fps range.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
Ballistics , are something that is not carved in stone , two identical rifles due to the molecular structure of the steel in the barrels , one being of rifle barrel length and the other a short carbine , can very easily give the same velocities.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
The molecular structure of the steel , hard spots and softer spots really comes into play when rifling is cut or impressed.
Smoothness of the rifling as it is being cut or impressed makes a big difference in the velocities you get from your rifles .
As Rick and Jaycee mentioned, it's not only about one single thing such as powder or barrel length. Our 1st TacOps Tango 51 shot the same velocity at 20 inches as compared to a 26" did with Fed Match 168 BTHP and the difference between the two(20" and 18") was only about 30 fps with that same ammo. The shorter barrels where much better all the way around and with no penalty in accuracy.
Decide on caliber with regards to game hunted and your recoil sensitivity, then simply get what configuration fits you physically.
Not mine, it went back to the original owner. Ammunition was illegal,Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Rick, IMR 4320 is a slow burning powder, Great for magnums but I am learning IMR 3031 @ one grain over book will give you good velocities even with the 3030. In a short barrel, the burn is complete by the time the projectile reaches the end of the barrel.
On a scale of burning rates # 1 to # 144 , 4320 is listed as # 100, as for magnums there are much slower burning powders that are better suited , meaning more load density giving better accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
I use it for my .243 with 85 grn. hpbt sierra bullets accuracy = 3/8 inch groups @ 100 yards off the bench and rest.
Going one grain over book , you are risking damage to your fire arm and possibly yourself by exceeding safe pressure limits, as the max. loads listed are that , MAXIMUM LOADS tested to safe pressures .
Very curious as to why .416 Taylor ammunition would be "illegal ", when all it is ,just a wildcat caliber ,a .458 Win Mag. case necked down to accept a .416 dia. bullet, it was created by Robert Chatfield-Taylor in the early 1970s.Quote:
Ammunition was illegal
Googled it and I couldn't find ANY THING saying its illegal... Also its not on the RCMP website of prohibited calibers.. Think its more "smoke blowing"......Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
No reason .416 ammo would be illegal
Must be tracer....
Also very hard to find..
Going one grain over book , you are risking damage to your fire arm and possibly yourself by exceeding safe pressure limits, as the max. loads listed are that , MAXIMUM LOADS tested to safe pressures .[/QUOTE]
Maximum loads are what are generally considered safe for any rifle of that caliber. There are many variables that can result in a safe load being a grain or two over (or under) this figure. You may not be able to achieve much accuracy with these loads but then again, each rifle is a little bit different.....just like women.
I think I will look for ruger m77, seems to be reasonably priced and descent reviews, already have 10/22
jaz,Quote:
Originally Posted by jazboxer
you may want to read this article...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_M77
According to this article there are still ongoing complaints about the M77 Hawkeye trigger. It may be worth some research or even better, go find one and dry fire it to get a feel for the trigger.
45-70 Lever action. shorter barrel, fast shooting, fast swinging, lots of knock down power, great in the brushQuote:
Originally Posted by jazboxer
Im going to call BS on that one. They dont even reference a source. Likely someone with an axe to grind wrote the wikipedia article.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
Even my old M77 has an acceptable trigger for hunting.
My personal preference, if looking for a good used gun in an all around caliber, would be in .308. Some really good auto loaders, pumps, bolt guns out there and with the popularity of the .308 there should be plenty of choices. I've been mostly shooting my 7 mag lately, but I'm just recently bought another .308 (new) in a Remington 700. I started out big game hunting with a .308 back in the late 60's and shot more moose, bear and deer with that rifle that I can remember. Ranges varied from 10 feet to 300 yards, conditions from thick brush where your could hardly shoulder the rifle to wide open marshes that stretched as far as the eye could see. This was in a Remington Model 742 Woodsmaster - autoloader. In well over 40 years, and many thousands of rounds, that rifle never had one misfire, failure to feed, or any other mechanical problem. Like I said, a lot of great guns out there, but I'll never sell any of mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
I tend to agree with this statement. This likely comes from people with inflated expectations from a $700 production rifle or those who just cant shoot. The 77's are a great rifle and a bargain at their price point in my opinion.
Good to know. To be clear, I don't own a 77 and I have not shot one so I am in no way stating this is the case. I will stick by the statement that it is a good idea to hold one before buying. Not just this rifle, but I am sure you guys will agree, any rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by mox72
It would be interesting to understand where the wiki statement originated as IMO they tend to be very non-biased.
Actually, anything written on wikipedia should be taken with a grain of salt. Anyone can write the articles. You could create an account and go edit just about anything to whatever you want it to say. If i wanted to I could go to the Ruger wiki right now and edit out the line about the poor triggers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGearyFTE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AboutQuote:
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