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I am curious to know if any one can tell me of any fines they have heard of for shooting the wrong moose then calling themselves in . I have heard the fine is around 300 .heard of a case where a cow was mistaken for a bull.should the fine not reflect the actual value of the animal.
How would we determine the value? Say $10 a pound and if the animal yields 300 pounds of meet that would be #3000 fine.I dunno just throwing it out there.If you were unsure of the target and shot anyway should you get off easy just because you turned yourself in?
my thought was based on circumstances but my thought is if my odds of drawing a tag was once every 20 years and a success rate of 50% on filling the tag my cost at 50 dollars a year would be 2000 dollars. I know of cases that occur in this area that are real mistakes but I also know of cases where people shot a moose hoping it would walk out of the cut it did not so they called themselves in
I think the fine is in the neighbourhood of $500.
The lower fine (than usual hunting offences) is because it would be a single charge.
The normal hunting fines we see in the few thousand dollar range are usually the result of convictions on multiple charges - in that poaching a moose involves breaking several laws.
as a hunter who has let moose walk because I was not 100% sure if it was a calf I can see a lower fine (1000) for a honest error but if the charge is not enough some people will shoot first then figure out if its a calf or not
I have heard of similar circumstances where the fines were in the $500.00 range. Things can happen ! If a hunter is party hunting, and one member shoots at a moose and advises the rest of the guys that he missed. Another group member sees and shoots another moose, only to hear later that the first shooter has located his downed moose ! Or, a group has both bull and cow tags. One member shoots a moose, and tells the other members he has shot a cow. Another group member sees a bull and shoots it, only to hear that the first moose turned out to be a spike. Oooops....on both accounts. If the shooters called and advised of the error, their fines should be less.
if your thought is it is a honest error if you shoot a spike bull with a cow I cant agree with that honest mistakes should be limited to shooting a yearling in stead of a calf, or this rare case that I heard about where a hunter shoots a spike bull down he goes the moose gets back up he shoots again down the moose goes hunter walks up there is two moose down yearling twins laying side by side
A friend of my son's father did this - He shot a cow moose and reported it to the MNR. The MNR fined him $300.00 and took the moose. The reason for the the low dollar fine is to encourage the reporting and allow the moose to be cared for and not wasted and left to spoil.
That's absolutely the mind set behind the simple ticket and set fine. There's no license suspension attached,either. The key is the hunter must notify the MNR,as soon as possible,meet them and escort them in to the kill site,truthfully supply all information as asked and co-operate fully which the vast majority do as a matter of course,anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPR 30-06
Are we really having this conversation about "accidents"??? There is no such thing as an accident. Verify your target before your finger even thinks about going inside the trigger guard.
Again, there is no such thing as an accident. If you can't tell the difference between a cow and a calf, please stop hunting. If you pull the trigger on a black animal because you thought it was a cow or you thought it was a bull, please sell your guns and don't go hunting.
We're at a time when adult tags are becoming scarce and the last thing we need is a bunch of simple minded "hunters" shooting at things they can't identify. Give your head a shake. This is giving someone a $300 lottery ticket - if the horns don't match, you're only out $300. Pathetic way of thinking.
Identify your target. Verify a clean and safe backdrop. Get on the horn as soon as your shot(s) are fired.
BE RESPONSIBLE.
Im not going to disagree with you.. However you don't get to keep the moose.. So you get a $300 find and NO MOOSEQuote:
Originally Posted by mbhunter
Agree X2Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhunter
How many moose have you shot?Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhunter
I have shot enough (9) myself (my party shot 28) and we have never made a mistake we have probably let 10 calves walk because we were not 100% sure
Cow mistaken for a Bull???Quote:
Originally Posted by manson
yeah cow mistaken for a bull guy claimed it had a stick on its head 320 fine lost moose
Several years back a guy in our group shot what he thought was a calf. Upon checking the number of teeth it had, it was determined it was a small cow born the year before. He called the MNR to report it, and met them at the road with the animal in tow in an atv trailer. They confirmed its age, loaded it into their truck, and issued a ticket for shooting a cow without a valid game seal. Think it was about $350. If you are honest and up front about your mistake, you just get ticketed. If you try to hide the evidence and are found out, that's when things start to get costly.
How do you know you let 10 calves walk, when you can't identify the difference ? If it's not standing with a cow, don't shoot.....is a real good start !Quote:
Originally Posted by manson
If you hunt moose long enough, chances are there will be situations where a "mistake" can occur. Those who take the position that "Mistakes" can't happen, haven't hunted that long !
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Originally Posted by jlmorgan
Good question !!!!!!
"BE RESPONSIBLE" applies AFTER you see that a mistake has been made. Nobody's perfect and shyte happens as you will find out....eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhunter
Rick some of those ten were eventually shot later after hours of tracking several miles further back in the bush,sometimes you only have a limited amount of time and once you replay it in your mind you realize what you saw was a calf
I've hunted moose with my family and friends for 10 years. No, haven't harvested one myself yet, but have had plenty identified as the wrong age or sex within range.
My opinion comes from countless times of being questioned by MNR as to which group had been doing the shooting because there was yet another abandoned moose left to rot.
I've personally seen two cows left to rot after someone had had one of these "accidents". One the MNR was pulling out of the bush and the other we reported ourselves.
Trimmer, if you think I need to hunt longer in order to have an accident, you're dead wrong. I don't have an itchy trigger finger like some. I'd rather identify and safely harvest a moose and take pride in providing it for our group.
Our camp was purchased in 1981 and not once, with over 10 in the group, have we had an "accident". That's with 20+ moose being harvested in that time.
If you don't know, you don't shoot. Are you out shooting hens right now thinking they've got beards?
It's upsetting that there's forum members here still defending an "accident" situation. A real shame.
Not very often will you see a travelling calf alone, unless you see one with a cow, it's very difficult to tell. That's why so many year and a half old cows are shot as calves. Over the years, I've seen many, all hanging at the butcher's cooler with a calf tag affixed !
Kudos to you and your group. I truly hope your words don't come back and bite you an the arse ! Nobody here is "defending" accidents.Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhunter
But many here have three and four times the moose hunting experience as you. We know that "mistakes" do and will happen !
if you hunt around other people you will see calves alone if their mother is shot. several years ago saw a calf opening day and for the next three days never shot because was not 100% sure .fifth day found a dead cow shot illegaly before season.went back a week later heard someone had shot at the calf but it got away.found the calf dead bloated 20 feet in the bush.
How do you know the cow was shot illegally ? Obviously not recovered, but you make an assumption it was shot illegally !
I hunted that area from dawn till dusk for the first four days never heard a shot once found figured it had been dead about one week
So...there's no chance it was shot and unfortunately not recovered by a legally hunting native ? Just an example of, "things are not always as they seem"... Could have also been an archery kill and not recovered......right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by manson
oQuote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
One scenario that comes to me is a large cow moose with a small yearling with her, after watching the pair for about 10 minutes at about 100 yards decided to shoot them figuring it a cow with calf situation, fortunately we had 2 cow tags in our group that year. Another time a moose walked out on the east side of a small lake ( about 250 yds wide ) the sun was just setting in the west and was shining on the moose, the moose had its ears perked up and from my side of the lake looked exactly like a set of antlers with the sun shining on the white/gray on the inside of the ears, shot the moose only to find it was a cow when we walked around the lake to retrieve it, didn't matter back then (mid 1970's) as everyone had an any sex tag. Crap happens to the best of us so get the facts right before criticizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhunter
Hold it! Nobody here is condoning "accidents". Really,there is no such thing,only "incidents". It's admirable that your crew has never had an "incident",but,you'll never convince anyone who's been hunting many decades that there's never been a "close call". Like I said before,shyte happens and it will happen,sooner or later. We should never judge others too harshly because everything we see is never "black and white". There's always lots of "gray" in between. Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you think you see.
Oh ya, "shyte" happens ! One such "close call " happened to me several years ago. One member of our group shot what he said was a bull. At roughly the same time, on the other side of the cutover, I was watching a cow. Once he confirmed that he had shot a bull, I took the safety off and started to apply pressure on the trigger. Just then my radio crackled, that one if our guys was going to get his truck... My cow wheeled around and bolted into the timber. Well, I was ticked off to say the least, until I found out that my buddy's bull was in fact a cow. We had a tag for a bull and cow. So, as has been said, it can happen !
Absolutely,Rick. Our crew had two bulls appear to two different hunters that were only a ridge apart with only one Bull tag. They shot at exactly the same time. One Bull went down with two shots and the second Bull was a clear miss,but,what would have happened if both went down? That's also why I always apply for the Antlerless Deer draw simply as an insurance policy against a screw up. It can happen quickly,to anyone.
the whole question of this thread was about the feeling that the fine being equal to the value of the game animal. no matter what you think mistakes happen . Everyone says oops no one says to the warden I just was tired of not getting a tag so I shot it . In life you have to be willing to pay for your mistakes at a fair value
I almost got a cow for a calf a few years back. I had seen a cow, with what looked like a calf with her. I was straining pretty hard to get a good look at what I thought was a calf, my partner said don't shoot, it has a pretty long face. I argued with him about it being a calf, he said he didn't think so. We covered about another 100 yards, and it turned out to be a big cow and a lot smaller cow. If I had been alone I would have shot it. At the time I was sure it was a calf, and it was well within my shooting range. I just got lucky that day.
A couple incidences come to mind. One chap I know had a cow tag, and shot a cow in a cut. The cow ran in the bush and one minute later ran back out from the same spot. He downed her, and went over and it was a different cow that had been standing in the bush. Both were dead.
Another time, almost similar incident with another group, they shot a cow on a hydro easement, which ran in the bush. They followed in after her and she was standing in the bush. After shooting her again, they walked over and there were 2 dead cows.
fines were between $300-$500.
The fines get a lot steeper if you try to hide it, let it spoil, or if the CO thinks it was intentional.
If a guy this experienced has a close call, than none of us are immune.Quote:
Originally Posted by woody1948
I understand the message you are trying to convey here, but most of what you are saying is based on properly identifying your target and not pulling the trigger unless you are sure. Hopefully we all live by those rules but, as you can see by some of the replies from some very experience moose hunters in this thread, it's not always as cut and dried as we would like it to be. Sometimes you can be wrong, even when you are sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhunter
There is an important aspect missing from your argument. While you can do everything in your power to make sure that you don't make a mistake, you don't have total control over your group members. You can do your best to surround yourself with most trusted friends and family, but you can't guarantee that they won't make a mistake. If you're part of the group then you're involved, whether you like it or not.
You also don't have control over equipment (radio/phone) failures, changing weather conditions, freak occurrences like two different moose appearing to be one. Examples are mentioned in this thread. Shoot a bull, it goes down. You go over to retrieve it and it gets up to run and you shoot it again. You walk over to find two dead bulls and your group has one tag. Heck, my uncle shot a calf a few hundred yards from me one morning and due to high winds I never even heard the shots. One big hill between him and me meant that I got nothing but static from him on the radio. I was pretty surprised when I finally got enough signal to hear that a moose was down. That scenario made me think of what might have happened if he had shot a bull and two minutes later a bull walked out to me.
Your intentions are in the right place but the point that I (and others) are trying to make is that you can't account for every scenario. Don't assume that it's impossible for your group to make a mistake.
bunch of hijackers the thread was suppose to be based on the value of a moose which should be the amount of the fine .accidents, mistakes happen thats a fact poachers are using this low fine as a way out (the group of poachers get the moose out of the bush have discussion realize people saw them figure some one will rat them out so they do it themselves)(poachers shoot illegal moose haul it out get to truck someone comes along they decide better call themselves in) (poacher goes out shoots illegal moose goes home tries to find manpower to get it out people don't want to get involved decides to call himself in)this happens
Over my 40 years of moose hunting, incidents do happen. I've seen them happen and they are unfortunate and can make a good trip turn into a bad trip. Properly addressed we get over it at mininal cost. Trying to cover it up will cost dearly.
Mistakes do happen. Your a better person dealing with it than trying to cover it up.
"E"
Okay well... Than.. How would you put an actual cosy on moose? Would it be a per lb. Basis? Would per lb dog pending on area the moose was shot? Sex? Age? Size of rack? I think if the prices were to go up less LAW ABBIDING hunters who may have made an error are less likely to report it. Which will cause more wasted meat.. Etc.. Unsure but is that not a cause of cwd? (I'll admit don't know wtf CWD really is..)Quote:
Originally Posted by manson
I am not sure what the fine should be but at 320 dollars that is way to low . I believe a larger fine for reporting your self would stop hunters from shooting to quickly to many people are fireing when they are not 100% sure what they are shooting at. the fines for leaving game meat to spoil are higher and with less tags I would think less people would look the other way
If you shoot the wrong one by "mistake", do you get to keep it or is it taken away?
I see it differently, up the fines and watch the Moose rot in the bush. The fine is for an honest guy making an honest mistake. not for a Poacher trying not to get caught
MNR keeps it and supposedly donates it to needy families in the area...Quote:
Originally Posted by fishermccann
Thanks for the info. Maybe that's why people who make mistakes walk-run away from them without owning up. Not that I think you should gain from a "mistake".
I agree. Higher fines only leads to more people walking away from it.
Didn't mean to get any feathers up with my previous posts. I get to see a lot of moose winter around our area and see them by snowmobile often. I dog a lot in moose season so I do see a lot of moose, just the wrong gender. It really strikes a nerve when I see a moose (or any animal for that matter) left to rot by someone who shot it.
I will agree that unforeseen circumstances may happen - the bull running away only to be a different bull - but don't like the idea of "oops, oh well leave it for the wolves"
Hope everyone enjoys the rest of Turkey season.
MB
I agree. If the fine becomes too high, people aren't going to turn themselves in. They will leave it, and take their chances.Quote:
Originally Posted by woody1948
the mnr would have to tell you their success rate on charges for moose left in the bush . But past experience tells me when you report it the ministry will have a better chance of laying charges . to many people just don't want to get involved.
CO's are not stupid. If they investigate and/or suspect you were poaching or being careless, they will charge you. When you get to court, it is on you to prove otherwise. 99.9% of the time, the judge will side with the CO.
The prosecution will still have to prove their case against you. The JPs I've seen are pretty reasonable people, I don't agree that most of the time they've already situated their sentence.
Not hard to prove it when you are in possession of an illegally killed moose. Good luck with the accident part.Quote:
Originally Posted by zxexn