Alternative to Force Fetch

I am not trying to rock the boat, I know FF is a valuable tool and can be done several different ways and is very effective. I found this interesting article and am trying it on my spaniel and having great success with it. I know it is not completely the same as force fetch at all but it does have some of the ideas and I am getting the results I am looking for. The articles are "Delivery to Hand: Parts I, II, III" by Mike Stewart at Wildrose Kennels. I am about at the midpoint and I see steady progression as we go. I wish I had have read this when he was real young.

Sorry Sudsee, the name of the kennel tells the story.

There is no alternative to FF. There are some strategies that help provide a better hold and in time may be acceptable for delivering a bird to hand but this ignores the intrinsic value of the process.

Be careful about where certain ideas come from.

sudsee, you will be downright bullied here questioning FF.
In the UK they don't FF and seem to be quite happy about it. Remember where spaniels comes from....
You could go on UK sites if you're interested in more info and like minded trainers e.g.
http://www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk...wforum.php?f=6

Hey Vom, I don't see giving quality advice as 'bullying', folks are certainly free to follow any direction to their heart's content around FF or any other aspect of training.

I also encourage you to check out some UK sites and especially forums. Look through the discussions and you'll see a common problem/thread...

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Hey Vom, I don't see giving quality advice as 'bullying', folks are certainly free to follow any direction to their heart's content around FF or any other aspect of training.

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Not looking for a fight and wasn't referring to your post specifically, however this is NA mantra - FF, FF, FF. It works for most, this NA way. There's another way. Internet advice on dog training is futile :)

Proponents of FF will point out that the value of FF goes beyond simple retrieving. North American retriever training stresses the concept that the dog will learn to remove pressure by doing a desired behaviour. Force fetch is one of the ways this whole concept is introduced. The training method undeniably works.

Essentially, people stick with what works and this is going to be especially true in the trial world. Who wants to invest all that money and all those hours in an experiment to see if some alternative training concept will work? North American retriever trainers are training to NA standards using methods that have been proven to work in that context. When someone comes along and suggests taking a step out of the learning chain of a proven program ... well, people are justifiably leery of that.

On the other hand, I know of lots of people training spaniels who have done without FF. Many people seem to do a "forceless force fetch," which is pared down to teaching a proper hold. Their dogs retrieve just fine. The spaniels are of course working to a different standard. Retrieving tasks are simple and in a trial the handler won't handle the dog onto a downed bird, for example.

Regarding Mike Stewart, mentioning him in Kraka's earshot will be like waving a red flag at a bull, I think. :)

I like to think I'm fairly broad-minded re training approaches, and I have a copy of Stewart's book. A large part of it seems to revolve around training your Lab to become the kind of dog that will impress your buddies who all order stuff from the Orvis catalogue: steadiness and gentlemanly behaviour trump drive. And Stewart doesn't endear himself to anyone because he spends a lot of time putting other training methods down. You don't make yourself popular by walking into a room and saying, "Everyone here is doing it wrong." But not everything he says should be dismissed out of hand ... that's a whole 'nother discussion.

WildRose is great at marketing.
There is hold, and delivery to hand, and there is Force fetch.
If all you want is delivery to hand, then have at it.
Force fetch serves a purpose. I don't believe that all dogs need to be force fetched.
If the owner of the dog is happy with the dog bringing the bird back to his feet most of the time then good enough.

The problem arrives when the dog decides he doesn't want to play by the bosses rules.
If the dog isn't force fetched, the hunter has no recourse to demand that the dog deliver to hand.
It's the hunters dog. It's his choice.

Excellent post.

I agree and you will look long and hard to find anything Wild Rose puts on the ground that is competitive in NA retriever trials. What he is good at is putting the best down. This is hardly worth the discussion and to the contrary....quite a joke in the retriever world.

Best to reread Labber's post.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

I agree and you will look long and hard to find anything Wild Rose puts on the ground that is competitive in NA retriever trials. What he is good at is putting the best down. This is hardly worth the discussion and to the contrary....quite a joke in the retriever world.

Best to reread Labber's post.

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I also suggest a reread of Labber's post to anyone just getting to this thread. It's well put.

Jim, I've drawn attention to a sentence above. Putting down the best 'who' ? The best North American field trial dogs? Okay. But the best....hunting dogs? Retrievers that never see a trial or test? A dog only gets titles because the person who owns the dog filled out an entry form, paid an entry fee and did the work at a trial or test. Just because a dog doesn't have a title attached to its name doesn't mean it was a crappy dog. It does mean the person who owned it either couldn't pass a test/trial or wouldn't enter one in the first place for various reasons (not interested being the main one in my mind). In your world, titles mean everything and 200 yard marks are regular. Zippy, fast and flashy dogs are also part of the regular field trial package. Do they do the work you teach them? Absolutely. But the *average* hunter who isn't interested in trials or testing wants a dog with good manners, a calmer disposition, a dog that won't tip the canoe when it launches out of it is another good trait, etc etc. To field trialers, there is nothing greater than a dog with lots of style and speed, and that's great for a field trialer. I'm not putting that kind of dog down. But it's not what everyone wants.

Back to Labber's comment: not every dog has to be force fetched. It has its definite pros -- there is recourse for a handler to use when a dog decided he doesn't want to play by the handler's rules. Absolutely, I agree. But as Labber said, if the owner is happy with the dog bringing the bird back to his feet most of the time, good enough....then FF isn't the end all and be all for all. For anyone competitive in the dog sports, I imagine FF is the best choice to get a consistent retriever. If you're a weekend hunter and you're not shooting ducks at 200 yards, chances are if you have a dog who is keen to retrieve, those alternatives to FF may work just fine.

Alana,
To be clear the 'who' is not the dogs but rather the trainers that have been put down.

I don't disagree with you concerning field trials and whether they are everyone's cup a tea but that is not what this discussion is about.
Shooting ducks at 200 yards is also not the issue but retrieves of that distance can be common with factors such as wind cripples etc but again that is not what this is about.

This is about misleading marketing in the retriever world. You know the claims.....dogs come naturally FF, steady etc etc. The claims about them being the best yet have not and do not ever get in the ring to prove the claimed talent.

My comments were never about an average hunter or a person not being interested in trials or a dog being a good companion that has been taught what 'hold' is as compared to FF. I'm quite sure that can work for many dogs. That being said, FF is a valid part of basics leading through to producing a well behaved dog who will demonstrate good manners.

Bottom line in any FF discussion is the lack of understanding 'why' we do it and most certainly the lack of knowledge of how to do it. That in itself causes much confusion and misunderstanding about the purpose of FF.

Hi Jim,

thank you for specifying the 'who' part, as in the original post I quoted of yours, it wasn't clear.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Bottom line in any FF discussion is the lack of understanding 'why' we do it and most certainly the lack of knowledge of how to do it. That in itself causes much confusion and misunderstanding about the purpose of FF.

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This I wholly agree with. To be honest, I think it's the first F that offends most people right out of the gate. It should have been called something else. I actually spent last week having a very honest discussion with a friend of mine who was/is doing the internal debate on force fetch with her dogs. I personally don't see the big deal if a dog has shown you an instance where it's applicable. Chances are, most dogs will (and hers definitely has). I think most dogs learn best when they understand praise for obedience and consequences for blatant disobedience. Dubbing it 'Force Fetch' was a disservice to the concept.

And the OP wanted to talk about FF versus the alternatives. I hope he and any other readers find what they're looking for after getting all the information.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

To be clear the 'who' is not the dogs but rather the trainers that have been put down.

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Well, it is both the dogs and the trainers. Stewart puts down just about everybody, which is what gives his schtick little class.

But to reset for a moment....

This has become a thread about retriever training. The OP owns a spaniel. As I pointed out earlier, lots of spaniel trainers don't FF their dogs. And I don't see dogs failing to retrieve to hand. Dogs that fail hunt tests or get put out of trials mess up in other ways, the most common being steadiness. The stress in training is on other things because the stress in the field is is on different tasks.

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Originally Posted by welsh

This has become a thread about retriever training. The OP owns a spaniel. As I pointed out earlier, lots of spaniel trainers don't FF their dogs. And I don't see dogs failing to retrieve to hand. Dogs that fail hunt tests or get put out of trials mess up in other ways, the most common being steadiness. The stress in training is on other things because the stress in the field is is on different tasks.

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Don't be surprised when FF cleans up that garbage and those issues disappear.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Well, it is both the dogs and the trainers. Stewart puts down just about everybody, which is what gives his schtick little class.

But to reset for a moment....

This has become a thread about retriever training. The OP owns a spaniel. As I pointed out earlier, lots of spaniel trainers don't FF their dogs. And I don't see dogs failing to retrieve to hand. Dogs that fail hunt tests or get put out of trials mess up in other ways, the most common being steadiness. The stress in training is on other things because the stress in the field is is on different tasks.

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Welch, that's a pretty accurate assessment.

Pretty much any dog can be taught delivery to hand and teaching a sound hold for spaniels or any other breed is entirely possible. If the major criteria is just delivering a bird to hand then have at it. Some dogs are more prone to doing this.

However, please do not assume this thread is now about retriever training , it is not. In our world dogs must deliver to hand, not just a frontal approach but sit and deliver and more importantly focus on the next task, be it another mark to pick up or a blind retrieve. Every moment you delay messing around with a dog with a sloppy hold or bird dropping delays the next retrieve. The concept is simple, waste too much time and you begin to erase memory and certainly focus.

The aspect of FF that applies to all dogs irregardless of breed is learning how to remove pressure and that in itself is paramount. There will always be some pressure used in training, we use pressure all the time. This is not to be confused and read as physical pressure. As I'm sure most everyone does understand how they apply pressure to arrive at certain learnings....house training, obedience training etc.

The process arrived at through teaching FF teaches a dog how to remove pressure, and therefore adapt a level of compliance regarding the task. It is like constructing a solid foundation for future learning.

By the way most dogs eliminated in our field trials are eliminated for poor marking and lack of control. Very few , even the high flyers are seen 'breaking' in today's competition. Just as an aside, I see more dogs breaking on our water fowl hunting shows and their safety is often not regarded but this appears to be acceptable to that crowd....sorry to digress

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

Don't be surprised when FF cleans up that garbage and those issues disappear.

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FF which is starting to be called "trained retrieve" by many trainers because of the force fetch sounding to politically incorrect, is not just about the retrieving aspect of it all, like Jake mentions it will help clean up other problems by the dog willingly complying to other commands when the dogs learn who is running the show......

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Originally Posted by bdog

FF which is starting to be called "trained retrieve" by many trainers because of the force fetch sounding to politically incorrect, is not just about the retrieving aspect of it all, like Jake mentions it will help clean up other problems by the dog willingly complying to other commands when the dogs learn who is running the show......

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BINGO! Someone else understands the rational!

Whoa, I didn't look at this for a bit. I think everybody was a little confused with the purpose of this thread. I have read countless articles and watched videos on FF. I am not at all against it. What I am against is sending my dog away for 6 weeks and if I feel I need to do it I will do it myself with some help from somebody experienced. I posted this for those out there that get tired of hearing all the trial guys tell them that if you don't FF you are going to have a garbage dog. I don't know much about Wildrose other than what I have read and have no idea what kind of dogs they put out nor do I care. I have a welsh springer spaniel and only referenced the articles as they are working for me. I agree with what some others have said on here. You guys forget that you are on a hunting forum as well as some that do trials. Not everybody has the time, money or desire to have the dogs that retrieve for miles and run a perfectly straight line when it may be more practical in real life scenarios to run around something. At the moment my dog at 1 year old has far exceeded my expectations of him in the field and I will be fine tuning him for his whole life. He currently will quarter, flush pheasants and rabbits, retrieve them and deliver to hand. Is it with finesse? No, but at 1 year old I have no complaints. Thanks guys for your inputs and I always appreciate a good debate however when one side is close minded we might as well be hitting our heads against the wall. Kraka, Burly, Jakezilla I know you are well known in the sport and appreciate your responses and know you are very successful in your training however there is a chance some others may have dogs or themselves that may benefit from a slightly different approach. I by all means am no expert and have none of the experience you do but I am having fun training my dog and am seeing great progress and in the end if I have a dog that has manners in the field and will bring a bird right to me without eating it or dropping it I am happy.

Good to hear you are having success and enjoying your journey! That's what it's all about.

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Originally Posted by Sudsee

Whoa, I didn't look at this for a bit. I think everybody was a little confused with the purpose of this thread. I have read countless articles and watched videos on FF. I am not at all against it. What I am against is sending my dog away for 6 weeks and if I feel I need to do it I will do it myself with some help from somebody experienced. I posted this for those out there that get tired of hearing all the trial guys tell them that if you don't FF you are going to have a garbage dog. I don't know much about Wildrose other than what I have read and have no idea what kind of dogs they put out nor do I care. I have a welsh springer spaniel and only referenced the articles as they are working for me. I agree with what some others have said on here. You guys forget that you are on a hunting forum as well as some that do trials. Not everybody has the time, money or desire to have the dogs that retrieve for miles and run a perfectly straight line when it may be more practical in real life scenarios to run around something. At the moment my dog at 1 year old has far exceeded my expectations of him in the field and I will be fine tuning him for his whole life. He currently will quarter, flush pheasants and rabbits, retrieve them and deliver to hand. Is it with finesse? No, but at 1 year old I have no complaints. Thanks guys for your inputs and I always appreciate a good debate however when one side is close minded we might as well be hitting our heads against the wall. Kraka, Burly, Jakezilla I know you are well known in the sport and appreciate your responses and know you are very successful in your training however there is a chance some others may have dogs or themselves that may benefit from a slightly different approach. I by all means am no expert and have none of the experience you do but I am having fun training my dog and am seeing great progress and in the end if I have a dog that has manners in the field and will bring a bird right to me without eating it or dropping it I am happy.

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Great post , probably 75 percent or more of hunting dog owners would agree with you .:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Sudsee

Whoa, I didn't look at this for a bit. I think everybody was a little confused with the purpose of this thread. I have read countless articles and watched videos on FF. I am not at all against it. What I am against is sending my dog away for 6 weeks and if I feel I need to do it I will do it myself with some help from somebody experienced. I posted this for those out there that get tired of hearing all the trial guys tell them that if you don't FF you are going to have a garbage dog. I don't know much about Wildrose other than what I have read and have no idea what kind of dogs they put out nor do I care. I have a welsh springer spaniel and only referenced the articles as they are working for me. I agree with what some others have said on here. You guys forget that you are on a hunting forum as well as some that do trials. Not everybody has the time, money or desire to have the dogs that retrieve for miles and run a perfectly straight line when it may be more practical in real life scenarios to run around something. At the moment my dog at 1 year old has far exceeded my expectations of him in the field and I will be fine tuning him for his whole life. He currently will quarter, flush pheasants and rabbits, retrieve them and deliver to hand. Is it with finesse? No, but at 1 year old I have no complaints. Thanks guys for your inputs and I always appreciate a good debate however when one side is close minded we might as well be hitting our heads against the wall. Kraka, Burly, Jakezilla I know you are well known in the sport and appreciate your responses and know you are very successful in your training however there is a chance some others may have dogs or themselves that may benefit from a slightly different approach. I by all means am no expert and have none of the experience you do but I am having fun training my dog and am seeing great progress and in the end if I have a dog that has manners in the field and will bring a bird right to me without eating it or dropping it I am happy.

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Well Said! :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Good to hear you are having success and enjoying your journey! That's what it's all about.

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Well said.:thumbup:

can I get a hug? I feel lonely :shy:

Responding late, been away all day.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

However, please do not assume this thread is now about retriever training , it is not.

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To be clear, I just meant that the posts were beginning to revolve around retrievers and the thread is really just about dogs. So we're agreed. :)

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

Don't be surprised when FF cleans up that garbage and those issues disappear.

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Every set of field trial rules provides ways for dogs to eliminate themselves. For spaniels, running in is the ticket. Kraka mentioned poor marking and lack of control for retrievers. Even very good dogs mess up. It happens.

I'm not opposed to FF. (And I'm not defending Mike Stewart, as should be clear....) It's simply that I know some very good dogs that were not FF. When you can take dogs to the nationals without FF, then it seems that FF is not strictly necessary to the flushing spaniel world. Some do it and some don't.

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Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz

can I get a hug? I feel lonely :shy:

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You're a dog person...consider yourself hugged!

Absolutely. :) Your opinion /experience is valued here.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Every set of field trial rules provides ways for dogs to eliminate themselves. For spaniels, running in is the ticket. Kraka mentioned poor marking and lack of control for retrievers. Even very good dogs mess up. It happens.

I'm not opposed to FF. (And I'm not defending Mike Stewart, as should be clear....) It's simply that I know some very good dogs that were not FF. When you can take dogs to the nationals without FF, then it seems that FF is not strictly necessary to the flushing spaniel world. Some do it and some don't.

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FF is not a requirement for spaniels or pointers to succeed in field trials but it will make a difference.


Your dog only has to please you and if you are getting results that satisfy you it's all good. But there are no short cuts in dog training, if you want FF results you need to FF, there is no "alternative" method to get all the benefits of FF.


Is there anyone on here that FF'd their dog or had their dog FF'd that regrets it or wasn't happy with the results?

How does everyone feel about training FF with setters?

Interesting opinions here on FF and pointing breeds. I have no personal experience with FF and setters. I used 2 pros early in my pointing breed career to FF a GSP , and neither were successful. (One well -known in the retriever trialing world.)

my theory:

"Once the bird is flushed and shot, they want to go find the next one - apparently they feel that they have done their part, and if I shot it, I can pick it up. :) "



http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...tch-my-pointer

http://gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9468

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Originally Posted by BurlyGirl

I also suggest a reread of Labber's post to anyone just getting to this thread. It's well put.

Jim, I've drawn attention to a sentence above. Putting down the best 'who' ? The best North American field trial dogs? Okay. But the best....hunting dogs? Retrievers that never see a trial or test? A dog only gets titles because the person who owns the dog filled out an entry form, paid an entry fee and did the work at a trial or test. Just because a dog doesn't have a title attached to its name doesn't mean it was a crappy dog. It does mean the person who owned it either couldn't pass a test/trial or wouldn't enter one in the first place for various reasons (not interested being the main one in my mind). In your world, titles mean everything and 200 yard marks are regular. Zippy, fast and flashy dogs are also part of the regular field trial package. Do they do the work you teach them? Absolutely. But the *average* hunter who isn't interested in trials or testing wants a dog with good manners, a calmer disposition, a dog that won't tip the canoe when it launches out of it is another good trait, etc etc. To field trialers, there is nothing greater than a dog with lots of style and speed, and that's great for a field trialer. I'm not putting that kind of dog down. But it's not what everyone wants.

Back to Labber's comment: not every dog has to be force fetched. It has its definite pros -- there is recourse for a handler to use when a dog decided he doesn't want to play by the handler's rules. Absolutely, I agree. But as Labber said, if the owner is happy with the dog bringing the bird back to his feet most of the time, good enough....then FF isn't the end all and be all for all. For anyone competitive in the dog sports, I imagine FF is the best choice to get a consistent retriever. If you're a weekend hunter and you're not shooting ducks at 200 yards, chances are if you have a dog who is keen to retrieve, those alternatives to FF may work just fine.

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Hey Alana I know you have alot more experience and knowledge than most, so I hope you don't mind me jumping on my usual FT dog defense bandwagon. The words that I bolded above kinda rub me the wrong way. It is common opinion that the FT lines are wild & crazy dogs not suited for hunters. Without a doubt, there are some, & I have had them. I have also had and have now, a well bred FT dog that is as laid back in the house, and steady and quiet while hunting, as a person could want.
On the other hand, my first retriever was bought from show/WC x Show WCX parents. Pretty good in the house, but totally uncontrollable in the duck blind. Whining and antsy like nothing I've ever seen. What hunters get when they avoid FT bred dogs is all the brains, and desire that makes teaching them easier, and mistakes more forgiving. The dogs that do not have this strong pedigree end up having these qualities washed out quickly. In as early as 2 generations the effects can be seen. This isnt to say that you can't have a great dog with tons of desire with a weak pedigree. I've had one with Honcho 4 generations back that was a great hunting dog, intense & smart. But her brother and sisters were dumb as a bag of hammers. That is the problem. The weaker the pedigree, the fewer good ones in the litter. Which one will YOU feed for the next 12 years?
The smart ones don't cost anymore than the dumb ones. (usually less)
That's the choice I learned to make.....the hard way.
BTW, that WCX-WC bred dog was rehomed to a very good Dr's sofa in Hamilton.
8 years later & many $$$$ in meds for allergies that developed, the dog was put down when the 2nd cruciate went.

So my point is that the Field bred Retrievers are probably a safer bet than the show class of labs on all levels.

Alana, I know that you are committed to the dogs as much as anyone, and you work hard for clubs & dogs.
I would like to see this tired old theory about crazy FT dogs kept in perspective.

Interesting enough when i was at a field trial a couple of weeks ago for spaniels I saw a mixed bag. The one pro I was interested in had at least four Springers he was competing with that i had been researching his field bloodlines for the last three years. All his dogs were completely out of control and dragged him to the line. They had tons of desire and did perform extremely well but not leashed trained from what i could see. My favourite dogs were also out of field lines that have been developed by my mentor for the last forty five years. They were very calm,leashed trained,had brains and also performed extremely well if not better than the other. Breeding programs play a huge role and take many years to produce quality dogs. I have also seen this with Labrador Retriever with SOME show lines and witnessed these lines perform very well with the weekend warrior hunter. They also had brains were very well mannered but could not compete at a field trial level but that was not what the owner wanted.

You have to remember too YD, that some old school fellas in the spaniel game prefer to not introduce a leash to their dogs in worries of slowing them down. A very big contrast to the retriever world where Heel and control are instilled early on. To put this into perspective - last fall I was hunting over my pup (if you can call it that - the focus was on him and not the hunt). His breeder kept a female littermate of Jake's and while I was sending him pics of Jake with grouse he had flushed and retrieved he said his sister hadn't even had a leash on yet (and this was at 10-12 months old). Just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Originally Posted by Labber

Hey Alana I know you have alot more experience and knowledge than most, so I hope you don't mind me jumping on my usual FT dog defense bandwagon. The words that I bolded above kinda rub me the wrong way. It is common opinion that the FT lines are wild & crazy dogs not suited for hunters. Without a doubt, there are some, & I have had them. I have also had and have now, a well bred FT dog that is as laid back in the house, and steady and quiet while hunting, as a person could want.
On the other hand, my first retriever was bought from show/WC x Show WCX parents. Pretty good in the house, but totally uncontrollable in the duck blind. Whining and antsy like nothing I've ever seen. What hunters get when they avoid FT bred dogs is all the brains, and desire that makes teaching them easier, and mistakes more forgiving. The dogs that do not have this strong pedigree end up having these qualities washed out quickly. In as early as 2 generations the effects can be seen. This isnt to say that you can't have a great dog with tons of desire with a weak pedigree. I've had one with Honcho 4 generations back that was a great hunting dog, intense & smart. But her brother and sisters were dumb as a bag of hammers. That is the problem. The weaker the pedigree, the fewer good ones in the litter. Which one will YOU feed for the next 12 years?
The smart ones don't cost anymore than the dumb ones. (usually less)
That's the choice I learned to make.....the hard way.
BTW, that WCX-WC bred dog was rehomed to a very good Dr's sofa in Hamilton.
8 years later & many $$$$ in meds for allergies that developed, the dog was put down when the 2nd cruciate went.

So my point is that the Field bred Retrievers are probably a safer bet than the show class of labs on all levels.

Alana, I know that you are committed to the dogs as much as anyone, and you work hard for clubs & dogs.
I would like to see this tired old theory about crazy FT dogs kept in perspective.

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A lot more experience and knowledge than most? Heck, when I'm 80 or so, I hope to still be learning new things and expanding my knowledge base. Always the student. I've got big mountains of knowledge to climb and learn from.

As much as you may feel it's a 'tired old theory about crazy FT dogs', I get weary of hearing that FT's are the only way to measure success, that only the titles in front of the dog's name mean something, etc etc. If the words I used rubbed you the wrong way, it wasn't my intention. But I read a lot that rubs me the wrong way, or at least makes me perk up my ears and think, "what was that? Please specify where this is going". As Cass just said in the post above mine, there's more than one way to skin a cat. My old girl Burly is a perfect example of that. My two dogs prior to her, and the four dogs I ran in competitive obedience prior to her, all were what I love to see in a typical labrador -- eager to learn, aiming to please, lots of mental and physical energy to keep up, and lots 'a go. Burly thinks a LOT and tends to overthink things. If 9 dogs will fall off the line to the left, she'll be the one to go right. I had to relearn how to train a dog when I started working with her. She has never been through an entire FF program. If I had tried it, I'm sure I would have had a dog I could no longer move forward with. That's just not how she learns. So to stay on topic, she would have had an "alternative to Force Fetch" learning curve, and if you've ever seen her work, there is absolutely nothing wrong with her fetch or hold. Her pick-up is immediate - she doesn't fritter around with the bird, she finds it, it's in her mouth and she's returning. There is not a mark on ANY bird that she picks up, and she retrieves geese despite her short little legs and she doesn't quit the retrieve until that big bird is in my hands or my dad's. Again to stay on topic, the young one I have now came to me at a year and a half. She's from, as field trialers would call it, a 'strictly show' pedigree. I look forward to our first hunt at Hullett together (this thought gives me the warm fuzzies). She learns like my first ones did and training her is something I find exciting to do. I get tired of the 'show lines won't do the job' theory, and I'd like it to be kept in perspective as well.

As for your concern about the wild and crazy field trial theory, I'm aware there are field trial dogs out there with temperaments that I would probably like to have in the house or canoe with me. I just feel like if you don't know the pedigree and aren't familiar with lines (no matter what direction the lines go in), you as the new puppy owner may not be prepared for what you're getting. As far as ones from field trial lines being a safer bet, you're saying that from a level of experience that can DO ENOUGH with all that dog you'll probably get from that cute little pup. Let's call a spade a spade here: you're a dedicated and incredible amateur trainer who is training his own dogs from bottom to top, placing in field trials against dogs trained by pros and you WON the National Amateur Field Trial Championship stake in 2011. I'll be the first to say that I admire you and am humbled by you, and that's the solid truth. You have all the trainer's skills it takes to keep a field bred dog thinking, learning, and both mentally and physically fit. I feel like field bred retrievers are a lot of dog for an inexperienced handler (and I am looking at one napping now so I can safely say that from experience -- that field bred lab is a LOT of dog. Wouldn't trade her for the world, but you need to be on your toes with her).

I absolutely love this forum because it gets people from all neck of the woods from different backgrounds together to talk shop for anyone to read. Back to our regularly scheduled programming! How is Sudsee coming along with his fetching young dog?

Awesome well said.

Cass all the spaniel field trialers dogs were all well behaved and leashed trained except this particular pro's dogs. I did talk to a few others about this and most agreed that a spaniel needed to be leashed trained and well behaved. My Elly is by my side walking off leash and also when she is on the leash watching the sky for birds. I understand some folks have a different approach to what works for them. Any of the spaniel training dvd's I have watch along with my mentors advice require leash training and complete obedience. I just find it interesting the different training approach that field trialers use. :)

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Originally Posted by Cass

You have to remember too YD, that some old school fellas in the spaniel game prefer to not introduce a leash to their dogs in worries of slowing them down. A very big contrast to the retriever world where Heel and control are instilled early on. To put this into perspective - last fall I was hunting over my pup (if you can call it that - the focus was on him and not the hunt). His breeder kept a female littermate of Jake's and while I was sending him pics of Jake with grouse he had flushed and retrieved he said his sister hadn't even had a leash on yet (and this was at 10-12 months old). Just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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The leash training - I've done that with my ESS as well as teaching him to walk at heel w/o the leash. I can see why some do not like it - if he's not finding birds (or gets tired) he'll stop hunting and walk at heel. He needs to be told to start hunting again - not the end of the world - but not ideal either.

Burlygirl, if you had replied that I was right and you were wrong, I'd have known you were lying. :)
We all have our "pet" peeves. Good on you for defending your position.

Werner Reiche I completely get what you mean. If he gets tired he just hugs my leg until I cast him off again. Still rather have a dog that walks nicely on a leash. He is also a pet and needs to be able to walk down the street with my wife. Burly Girl. Hold training was well on it's way but due to unfortunate circumstances we have put that on hold. I was hoping to breed him but the breeders don't have a mate for him and outside of them I had a no breed contract. I had a family member that was leaving work at a vet clinic and I took the opportunity for a deal on neutering before she left so I have been delayed. I am doing a bit with him but he has to have the cone on for a couple more days so it may be back to the start. Disappointing but that's the way it goes.

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Originally Posted by Labber

Burlygirl, if you had replied that I was right and you were wrong, I'd have known you were lying. :)
We all have our "pet" peeves. Good on you for defending your position.

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.....wait for it....

Regarding the above? You're right ;)

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

The leash training - I've done that with my ESS as well as teaching him to walk at heel w/o the leash. I can see why some do not like it - if he's not finding birds (or gets tired) he'll stop hunting and walk at heel. He needs to be told to start hunting again - not the end of the world - but not ideal either.

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Exactly. I live in the city so leash training wasnt an option - he needs to do it. My leash use is minimal but he still needs to be able to be leashed at times and when he is I expect him to heel as if he was off leash