Am I doing right?

So my new pup, Chase, loves to retrieve. Right now I'm using a tennis ball, but he has been trained on dummies and other feathered things.

I throw the ball a dozen or so times, he brings it to hand always. I don't do too much as he's only 5 1/2 months old. When I put the ball away he just begs for more. I don't let him chew on the ball. He'll even pick up a chew toy, spin around and lets it fly and then retrieves it, and does it all over again. I limit the retrieving till he briskly walks back v.s running, as I'm sure he'll do it till it hurts.

Question - is it ok to have him retrieve tennis balls to his hearts content? Do I need to add dummies etc?

Another question is his choice of chew toys. He loves the rawhide sticks I bought him, about 1 1/2" dia. x 8" long. They are made in America, and are quite hard for him to chew pieces off. He is very active, and chewing on them really keeps him busy till his next foray outdoors, or a snooze in the crate. I also have a kong I put peanut butter in, or some of his food, but he gets it out two easy, so after 5 minutes he's done. I bought some small chew toys from the vet, but he ignored them within a few days.

Question - Are rawhides good for him to chew on?

Any advice is welcome.

Don.

Follow your training plan. Which one are you using? I recommend "Smart Fetch" by Evan Graham.

Ditch the tennis balls and use bumpers. He's young - he shouldn't be getting so many retrieves. At that age 2 or 3 retrieves every other day is more than enough until he has been through a proper force fetch program. A dozen retrieves every day is just asking for problems to crop up.

someone claimed tennis balls have something in them that ruins dogs teeth, can't say if it's true.
Have him retrieve variety of objects - shape, size, texture, weight.
How much to retrieve is hard to say, you have to make sure he's not bored with it, but on the other hand keep his interest... and it's good exercise.
I have no comment on rawhide, except if too hard dogs break teeth or even screw their bite, teething toys shouldn't be too hard, JMO
Is he done teething?

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Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz

someone claimed tennis balls have something in them that ruins dogs teeth, can't say if it's true.

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The story I've heard is they pick up grit and wear down the teeth, but that should be a non-issue if the dog is only holding it long enough to retrieve.

As far as how much to retrieve, my rule is not to repeat the same thing more than 3 - 4 times. But I might do several sessions of 3 - 4, separated by other things. The main thing is to quit on a win and quit before the dog gets bored.

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Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.

So my new pup, Chase, loves to retrieve. Right now I'm using a tennis ball, but he has been trained on dummies and other feathered things.

I throw the ball a dozen or so times, he brings it to hand always. I don't do too much as he's only 5 1/2 months old. When I put the ball away he just begs for more. I don't let him chew on the ball. He'll even pick up a chew toy, spin around and lets it fly and then retrieves it, and does it all over again. I limit the retrieving till he briskly walks back v.s running, as I'm sure he'll do it till it hurts.

Question - is it ok to have him retrieve tennis balls to his hearts content? Do I need to add dummies etc?

Another question is his choice of chew toys. He loves the rawhide sticks I bought him, about 1 1/2" dia. x 8" long. They are made in America, and are quite hard for him to chew pieces off. He is very active, and chewing on them really keeps him busy till his next foray outdoors, or a snooze in the crate. I also have a kong I put peanut butter in, or some of his food, but he gets it out two easy, so after 5 minutes he's done. I bought some small chew toys from the vet, but he ignored them within a few days.

Question - Are rawhides good for him to chew on?

Any advice is welcome.

Don.

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I have three chew toys the first one being a kong with peanut butter the second is a chicken flavour plastic bone (edible-hard) and a shank bone. I switch them around and keeps my Elly very busy and all three are safe. I do not play fetch in the house with tennis balls, dummies etc. In the house is her calm place to chew on these things and be part of the family. Outside she retrieves on a daily bases frozen birds ,live birds and dummies depending on my plan for that week on land or water. When she was a pup she would retrieve different items that had different weight and texture all outside. Never use rawhides anymore found that it would usually disrupt the digestive tract.

Ok, so I don't let him chew on the balls. He just retrieves them from thirty feet or so. I will get a couple different dummies though. The trainer used paint rollers with pigeon wings tied to it, to get the feathered effect. Good idea about fetching different weighted sized objects etc. He will retrieve a slightly deflated soccer ball we have though!

Cass, not to argue, just to gain knowledge as I'm still learning, but if he retrieves on command, and if he drops the ball at my feet, and I ask him to 'fetch it up' he then picks it up until I take it, why would he need force fetch training? He will self enter water to retrieve a live or dead pigeon, or dummy. He is just insane about fetching (would fetch a stuffed toy and bring it back at eight weeks), doesn't even appear to be close to bored. He could go on for a few dozen fetches, so I figure a dozen is conservative, but breaks in between seems like a good idea. But two or three fetches every other day seems a bit cautious (again just learning). What problems can arise?

To clarify, I do not need the typical 'lab' fetch to heel and sit, and wait. If he brings me every downed bird like in the vid his whole life, I'm more than happy!

Yah, think I'm done with the rawhide, thanks for the advice.

D.

If you keep throwing hand throw marks from your side as much as you are doing you are in fact conditioning the dog to only work as far as you can throw the tennis ball.
As for ff this gives you a tool that will belp you later in your traing that teaches the dog to work with you away from you it is more than just holdthe bird.
Its up to you to decide to do it or not.
if you shoot all your birds with in the distance you can throw a mark and dont care about delivery. Carry on but soon you will have a dog that will go out to a certain distance and pop looking at you to throw something for him.
your best bet is to get out with a group of exprerenced trainers and get some help with your dog before bad habits are engrained and harder to fix.

You've made a good choice to ditch the balls. Get some bumpers! He'll soon learn when they come out then it's time to train.

Force fetch is far more than just delivering to hand although that is important. Wait till he brings a crippled bird, puts it down and you lose it as he shakes or just decides he's done his part, might not even be at your feet, might be down the shore etc.
The underlying real purpose of force fetch is to lay groundwork in a training program. This is the first time you are insisting that an action be done...not just asking. Of course if you'll never be doing any formal training then there is little point.
If you have such a keen young dog then you perhaps should consider buying into a solid training program to allow him to become the best he can be and make you even prouder of his abilities.
Force fetching is so badly understood as to the purpose.....too bad.

Ahhh....much clearer now. I'll certainly change things up!

D.

Zoli did your trainer discuss FF with you or do any FF training with your dog ?

Nope, not that I'm aware of. He's on holiday right now, so I'll contact him next week. He is still very involved with me and the mutt, albeit via emails. His puppy training is geared to him having fun, and learning at the same time. Always stressing that he is still only a pup, and let him be a pup, while I continue with what he has learned so far.

While fetching, sometimes he would not see me throw the ball, stand there and look at me, so I used that opportunity to teach him the 'back' command (arm thrust out while saying back). He follows that now, and will take the command to direct him to the ball. He was taught 'overs' by the trainer, with one blow of the whistle and arm thrust in the direction I want him to go. This works very well in the park. I can direct, and do direct him several times while on his run. His come back is very good.

His sit was great with the trainer, he just snapped his fingers. Unfortunately my 'snap' is not as loud, so I'm using a single finger and sit command. Stay with the open hand, and two taps on the head to release. He pretty good on the stay and release.

Heel went from the pulling my shoulder out to now just a slight tug on the lead. I will tune that up slowly, as his environment is still quite new to him, with so many smalls and birds about. So I try to let him explore but still slightly in front of me. A 100% improvement, from a few days ago.

When we trained our black labs, 35 years ago, things were very different. No ecollars, no force fetch. They did win 28 field trial ribbons, nonetheless, including a third at the Sportsman Show.

Always feel free to advise.....or even correct me....sans ecollar!

D.

3 Black dogs has the right advice

sounds like you have a nice bidable dog if you are curently useing a trainer continue with his advice he knows your dog better than any of us. good luck with your pup!

Zoli deffinately talk to your breeder trainer about his method because he has the most experience with your pups temperment. Every dog is different and he would have the right advice because he knows your dog best.

I just dropped my pup off at the pro's last week. She turned 6 months the end of July and has her adult teeth. She was at the sassy teenage stage so it was time. Her marking is great and she has a ton of go. We had some basic obedience in place so now is the time to lay a firm foundation. She will stay there for Aug and Sept and we will see how the weather holds for Oct.
I know from his posts that Zoli left his pup with the trainer for introductory training. The training programmes seem very different for a lab and an upland or versitile dog. It got me wonder how others, if they use a trainer, work it into their programmes and what expectations they have for the pro. I know that I want an excellent basic programme that will enable me to carry on through the transition. Lord knows I can undo the good the pro has done but he is always willing to discuss problems and help with any issues that arise. He likes us to spend at lest 3 or 4 days with him when we go to pick the dog up and always sends us home with a list of next steps and exercises (drills). With my last dog he even showed us how to build a monthly training shcedule so that one skill built on to the next.It is going to be a long 2 months but I know I will have a great dog when she comes home.

Seems you have a great trainer,awesome.

If anyone needs some great training dvd's for spaniels I have the David Lisett series and my mentor Ben Martin training dvd. Ben has a segment on FF and if any of you would like to borrow them just PM me.

Thanks for all the info folks. Yah, I can see how the tennis ball could become a problem. So I'll curtail it till my trainer gets back from his Alaskan cruise....luck guy!

I bought about a $100 bucks worth of stuff for the mutt. A good kong rubber bone with holes in the end to stuff treats in...he loves that. Two flavors of shed antlers....he loves those, treat sticks...to put in the Kong, and a decent everyday dog collar.

We rotate the chew toys three times a day, mixed in with chasing bugs in the grass, a 'few' retrieves and nice long points on back yard birds....can't wait to see him in the covets and at the game farm!

The 'heel' is going to be an issue, probably more for me trying to train him. He has so many city made distractions.

Should I really worry about getting him set in quality heels at this age? Are pointers harder to teach heel then labs etc, due to their search drive?

D.

I don't think so. At 6 months he should be heeling imo. I use my e collar . Correctly timed and amount of correction when the dog passes my knee and voila! in a week or less he's heeling. For me it is much more "humane" than jerking on a choke/barbed collar for weeks.

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I don't think so. At 6 months he should be heeling imo. I use my e collar . Correctly timed and amount of correction when the dog passes my knee and voila! in a week or less he's heeling. For me it is much more "humane" than jerking on a choke/barbed collar for weeks.

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We did the same thing with my Springer she would pull ahead when my wife would take her for a walk. The e collar did the trick after only a couple of days.

I think the e-collar is great for reminding a dog of proper positioning, however I think proper heeling should be taught prior to introducing a collar into the mix

Really depends on the dog and if the pro trainer main focus was spending time on heeling. My pro trainer didn't spend time on heeling but training to hunt. When we got her back we spent a couple of days using an e collar and now she heels perfectly. Everyone has a different approach with the same outcome with a happy trained dog. Also my wife has fibramialga and couldn't correct Elly when she would pull ahead because of the pain she has and the e collar did the trick. Elly heels for me but would not heel for my wife.

Guess this is where spaniel training and lab training diverges. We teach nothing with the e-collar. The dog is collar conditioned and the collar is used after the concepts have been taught. The e-collar then becomes a tool for correction of behaviours that are known concepts. It should not take weeks to train a dog to heel with the correct type of collar. My pup was heeling nicely when I dropped her off and the pro will continue to reinforce this and the sit before collar conditioning. He spends time with the basics like this getting to know the dog and getting it comfortable with being away from its own environment. Each dog is different and getting to know how each will react to pressure is important before the actual yard work and force are introduced.

In my experience, the best thing for teaching a dog to heel is the Wonder Lead.
http://www.canadiangundogsupply.com/...nder-Lead.html

The key to this thing is that it's stiff, so when pressure is removed it springs open. So you get corrections as well-timed as your own timing. But it is not a lead for everyday dog walking: you need to do formal heeling sessions with it in the yard.

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Originally Posted by ebenezer

Guess this is where spaniel training and lab training diverges. We teach nothing with the e-collar.

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That's not a spaniel training thing. Some spaniel people never use an e-collar, period; it hasn't become de rigeur as it has in the retriever world.

I wouldn't suggest teaching anything with the e-collar. The dog has to know heel before you use the collar for reinforcement.

I had my Elly trained to heel prior to her going to the pro trainer but his focus was to train to hunt. She was and is so bird crazy he had to use an e collar to keep her in range if he missed a bird. Not only would she not heel for my wife she was so preoccupied with birds in the sky while my wife was trying to walk her that the e collar did the trick and Elly will now focus on my wife and heel for her. I was exaggerating when i said it took a couple of days but basically took only one outing using the e collar to correct. The heeling was an easy fix when she returned and I wasn't concerned that the trainer didn't enforce the heel because he had a bird crazy Springer to get to focus with amazing end result. The e collar is an excellent tool especially since my wife has fibramialga and was frustrated initially not being able to walk Elly. Her nick name is bird brain....not my wife. But my mentor did say after training Spaniels for 45 years he has never had a dog like Elly that is so bird driven that an e collar had to be used . Normally he would not use an e collar but in her case he had to. So yes Welsh you would be correct that most spaniel people do not use e collars.

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Originally Posted by Cass

I think the e-collar is great for reminding a dog of proper positioning, however I think proper heeling should be taught prior to introducing a collar into the mix

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Absolutely the dog has had to be conditioned to the collar previously, but by 6 months ( original poster's dog), mine would be conditioned to the e collar.

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Originally Posted by ebenezer

Guess this is where spaniel training and lab training diverges. We teach nothing with the e-collar. The dog is collar conditioned and the collar is used after the concepts have been taught. The e-collar then becomes a tool for correction of behaviours that are known concepts. It should not take weeks to train a dog to heel with the correct type of collar. My pup was heeling nicely when I dropped her off and the pro will continue to reinforce this and the sit before collar conditioning. He spends time with the basics like this getting to know the dog and getting it comfortable with being away from its own environment. Each dog is different and getting to know how each will react to pressure is important before the actual yard work and force are introduced.

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Absolutely should be that way for any breed and certainly is for my setters.

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Originally Posted by welsh

In my experience, the best thing for teaching a dog to heel is the Wonder Lead.
http://www.canadiangundogsupply.com/...nder-Lead.html

The key to this thing is that it's stiff, so when pressure is removed it springs open. So you get corrections as well-timed as your own timing. But it is not a lead for everyday dog walking: you need to do formal heeling sessions with it in the yard.



That's not a spaniel training thing. Some spaniel people never use an e-collar, period; it hasn't become de rigeur as it has in the retriever world.

I wouldn't suggest teaching anything with the e-collar. The dog has to know heel before you use the collar for reinforcement.

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Absolutely , but if the dog is still lunging ahead ,( as the original poster said), the e collar works fine for a dog already conditioned to the collar.

( I knew when I posted my original post that I should have expanded on it. :) )

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Originally Posted by welsh

That's not a spaniel training thing. Some spaniel people never use an e-collar, period; it hasn't become de rigeur as it has in the retriever world.

I wouldn't suggest teaching anything with the e-collar. The dog has to know heel before you use the collar for reinforcement.

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Well said

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Originally Posted by Sharon

Absolutely , but if the dog is still lunging ahead ,( as the original poster said), the e collar works fine for a dog already conditioned to the collar.

( I knew when I posted my original post that I should have expanded on it. :) )

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I am glad you expanded on it Sharon for clarification.....well said.

Just because the spaniel world typically or rarely uses an e collar doesn't mean it shouldn't be used as a training tool. Especially in my situation with my wife not able to walk our dog and the e collar correcting the problem. It would of been different if it had the opposite effect and made things worse but it did not. In fact it was recommended by my trainer to use a an effective tool because my dog is so birdy to keep her in range if birds were missed. Again under normal conditions he would rarely recommend using an e collar. I wonder how many people in the spaniel world gave up on a dog that was out of control when they could of utilized an e collar to correct a behavior. When i was at a recent field trial one particular trainer had dogs entered that were so out of control and clearly did not heel. Once at the line they proved to be top notch dogs working but would not heel. He placed higher than everyone else. I believe any humane training method should be used depending on the dogs temperament to correct a behavior . Why limit yourself if other methods have failed .

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Just because the spaniel world typically or rarely uses an e collar doesn't mean it shouldn't be used as a training tool.

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Absolutely. To clarify, I was just saying that rather than using the e-collar as a central component of the training program as many retriever trainers tend to, in the spaniel world they seem to be used more rarely and usually to solve specific problems, often after the usual ways have failed. Collars have their advantages, too.

Okay i understand now and appreciate the clarification. The David Lisett training dvd's i am sending you focus heavily on the spaniel not moving on to the next step before it can accomplish the task at hand. I like and understand the proven concept he is teaching with a very common sense approach and being in tune and understanding the temperament of the animal. To me this is key even within a specific breed training methods need adjusting.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Okay i understand now and appreciate the clarification. The David Lisett training dvd's i am sending you focus heavily on the spaniel not moving on to the next step before it can accomplish the task at hand. I like and understand the proven concept he is teaching with a very common sense approach and being in tune and understanding the temperament of the animal. To me this is key even within a specific breed training methods need adjusting.

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This an excellent example for anyone doing dog training, regardless of the type of dog.

All training should be built upon steps. You do not move ahead until previous skills have been taught AND a level of mastery is evident. This is usually the largest area of mistakes as people have no sense of what the sequential training steps are and certainly no sense of what mastery would look like. This is why it is so critical to get with a program and stick with it.

Here's a simple example:
Guy is getting his retriever ready for hunting season. Thinks dog is steady because he will sit while a bumper is thrown. First morning, guns go off, dog not steady, runs, jumps in water, will not recall and dog will only go the distance that bumpers are usually thrown. There are multiple steps that must be taken between these basic expectations. . You don't move on until the previous skill has been mastered and in this example there are multiple steps leading up to this.

Certainly any training can be tailered or tweeked for an individual but first of all an understanding of what this training should look like is required and what the logical progression of steps need to be.

Not only do we often lack a sense of what the correct sequence of steps is, but we also tend to rush ahead, moving to step 2 before step 1 is fully mastered. I would guess that this is one of the most common training errors.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Not only do we often lack a sense of what the correct sequence of steps is, but we also tend to rush ahead, moving to step 2 before step 1 is fully mastered. I would guess that this is one of the most common training errors.

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I've been guilty of that for sure