Do you need an ultra magnum?

I am not a muzzle loader guy, I want to be at some point though.

I was wondering why all of the magnum loads for the muzzle loaders, I mean, you are still using a 45cal bullet in a 50cal sabot running a bullet with a really poor BC, the velocity sheds so fast that it does not really make sense to me to go with a 200gr load, even 150gr.

Muzzle loaders are 100 yard guns on deer for the most part, even with scopes and magnum loads. I guess you would have less of a rainbow effect but it is still similar to shooting a shotgun slug.

What are your thoughts?

If they came out with a long boat tailed 338 or 30 cal bullet, maybe 180-200gr set into a 50 cal sabot then I could see you holding the velocity and making magnum loads better but a 220gr 45cal bullet is really stubby.

Hmm, maybe I should just start making 50 cal sabots to hold 30 cal bullets :)

Deer or anything else really don't care how fast the projectile is that hits them. They aren't bullet proof! The thing is most .45 cal bullets are designed for velocities below 2000fps. Its a proven fact that big heavy, slow bullets out penetrate ones at magnum velocities. Its just the typical believe that more is better. But its really just compensating for something that is lacking ;)

I would not hesitate to make a 200 yd shot with mine with a good rest and that is with 100 grns of powder. Agreed, the magnum charge is not needed and some of it exits the barrel before full burn.

The magnum black powder substitutes lose efficiency very fast and don't usually result in much more velocity. We have all switched to smokeless Savage 10ML guns and 200 yd shots are a snap.

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Originally Posted by terrym

The magnum black powder substitutes lose efficiency very fast and don't usually result in much more velocity. We have all switched to smokeless Savage 10ML guns and 200 yd shots are a snap.

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So if you are running blackpowder the old long barrel thing is key to get full burn on the powder, but only long enough that you still have burning powder. Meaning that you want the burn to stop as the bullet exits the barrel, not have any additional barrel length to increase friction on the bullet and slow it prematurely.

This is what I was trying to figure out, I see more of you guys using 80-100 grains for hunting then 150grains.

Why the large bore though? If they now have rifles that can up the velocity with blackpowder or as with the Savage have gone to smokeless, why not have a smaller bullet in a sabot? If you can get the 2400 fps advertised then why not go with a smaller diameter jacketed bullet with a longer profile. Maintaining the same weight you would have a lot better BC which would hold the velocity better, buck the wind better and hit with the same authority as a 30-06 loaded with a 220gr bullet.

I know this is not the intended purpose of the smoke poles, the post about the 200gr remington muzzleloader got me thinking.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Muzzle loaders are 100 yard guns on deer for the most part, even with scopes and magnum loads. I guess you would have less of a rainbow effect but it is still similar to shooting a shotgun slug.

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In the recent OOD article Grech says that his personal best with a muzzleloader is 333 yards. That is one hell of a shot.

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Originally Posted by Species8472

In the recent OOD article Grech says that his personal best with a muzzleloader is 333 yards. That is one hell of a shot.

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That is not the norm, that is one hell of a shot.

They list the new magnum as having a drop over 2 feet at 300 yards, with wind drift that is a really iffy shot on game.

333 yards, I really hope he practiced.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So if you are running blackpowder the old long barrel thing is key to get full burn on the powder, but only long enough that you still have burning powder. Meaning that you want the burn to stop as the bullet exits the barrel, not have any additional barrel length to increase friction on the bullet and slow it prematurely.

This is what I was trying to figure out, I see more of you guys using 80-100 grains for hunting then 150grains.

Why the large bore though? If they now have rifles that can up the velocity with blackpowder or as with the Savage have gone to smokeless, why not have a smaller bullet in a sabot? If you can get the 2400 fps advertised then why not go with a smaller diameter jacketed bullet with a longer profile. Maintaining the same weight you would have a lot better BC which would hold the velocity better, buck the wind better and hit with the same authority as a 30-06 loaded with a 220gr bullet.

I know this is not the intended purpose of the smoke poles, the post about the 200gr remington muzzleloader got me thinking.

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I can run a 300 grainer @ 2400 fps in my savage, but it starts to hurt! The problem is with a smaller bullet the thicker the sabot has to be and that affects accuracy.

Fox

First correction to bore deceleration myth is that a bullet in a bore is under constant acceleration until it exits. The rate of acceleration is dependent on the remaining pressure behind it. Even when the powder completes its burn the remaining pressure is the driving force for the bullet acceleration. This also applies to CF rifles.

Muzzle loading has advanced exponentially in the last 14-years and is not limited to BP anymore.
Common bullets designated for ML use is designed for muzzle velocities for 2000fps or less. Their BC also limits useful range because of the velocity loss.
There are many variables in play including sabot specifications when deciding what sabot to use even for velocity applications. Most ML shooters don’t want to invest the time to learn the intricacies and variables actually involved with muzzle loading. They prefer a simple designated load combination and fire away during hunting season.

As for the new Remington Ultimate for me I don’t need it as my 10ML-II gives me everything I need out to 200yds easily.

Ed

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Originally Posted by terrym

The magnum black powder substitutes lose efficiency very fast and don't usually result in much more velocity. We have all switched to smokeless Savage 10ML guns and 200 yd shots are a snap.

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Yikes! Why spend the money on a Savage when you can get a cheap inline (CVA, Traditions), for less?

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Originally Posted by rippin_355

I can run a 300 grainer @ 2400 fps in my savage, but it starts to hurt! The problem is with a smaller bullet the thicker the sabot has to be and that affects accuracy.

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Why would you spend the money on a Savage to get that velocity?

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Originally Posted by ET1

Fox
As for the new Remington Ultimate for me I don’t need it as my 10ML-II gives me everything I need out to 200yds easily.
Ed

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Why wouldn't you want to be lost in a cloud of smoke after shooting that distance using a muzzleloader that only shoots black powder substitutes?

Delmer

Savage 10ML-II

When I shoot I don’t pollute.
After I fire I clean when I desire.
Maintaining line of sight I see direction of flight.
Need I say more with this winning score.
:D

Ed

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Originally Posted by Fox

Muzzle loaders are 100 yard guns on deer for the most part, even with scopes and magnum loads. I guess you would have less of a rainbow effect but it is still similar to shooting a shotgun slug.

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I'd put that range out to 200yds....most of the conicals achieve enough energy/speed to shoot effectively and accurately out to 200yd without to much compensation....

see some of the ballistic charts at this link to get an idea:

https://www.prbullet.com/bal.htm

But yes, your right, this magnum craze is primarily for target shooters striving for distance, not for hunting scenarios.

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Originally Posted by skeeter1

I would not hesitate to make a 200 yd shot with mine with a good rest and that is with 100 grns of powder. Agreed, the magnum charge is not needed and some of it exits the barrel before full burn.

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I agree, once you pass 110grs, you'll find a lot of unspend powder being throw out the barrel. (I put a white bed sheet down and was surprised).

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Originally Posted by ET1

As for the new Remington Ultimate for me I don’t need it as my 10ML-II gives me everything I need out to 200yds easily.

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I can only assume the Remington was developed to replace the Savage ( no longer made) for the guys that wanted a long range gun. It seems the the goal was to market a 500 yr range ML.

Am I missing something, but is there anything different mechanically with a smokeless ML that prevents them from shooting BP ? ie: would you be able to shoot smokeless powder thru the Remington Ultimate ?

MikePal

SML’s can shoot BP loads without any difficulty.
As for the Remington Ultimate I couldn’t say what amount or type of smokeless powder it could handle because I don’t know the pressure rating of the barrel. In theory if a smokeless powder load does not exceed the pressure level rating of say a max BP load for a given ML you would think it is doable. Pressure rating and pressure level generated is the key for not destroying any firearm.
But I don’t endorse or promote trying this because of all the variables that have to be taken into consideration that the average shooter is not aware of. Stay within manufacturers recommendation to be safe or you may live a life of regret if you suffer severe consequences.

Ed

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Originally Posted by ET1

Stay within manufacturers recommendation to be safe or you may live a life of regret if you suffer severe consequences.

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Litigations are preventing the Gun manufactures from letting us know the truth..I don't figure Remington will be providing the smokeless data/recommendation.

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Originally Posted by ET1

Delmer

Savage 10ML-II

When I shoot I don’t pollute.
After I fire I clean when I desire.
Maintaining line of sight I see direction of flight.
Need I say more with this winning score.
:D

Ed

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At least you put a smilie at the end...LOL...

MikePal

I agree with what you said but Savage did provide specific pressure ratings for the 10ML-II.
Yield strength of over 80k-psi and tensile (failure) strength of over 120k-psi.
My loads are kept under 40k-psi and confirmed with pressure trace testing.
Hopefully I can acquire a copy of QuickLoad in the future to assist with future load development as an added precaution.

Ed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ET1

Delmer

Savage 10ML-II

When I shoot I don’t pollute.
After I fire I clean when I desire.
Maintaining line of sight I see direction of flight.
Need I say more with this winning score.
:D

Ed

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Just giving you fellow Savage shooters a hard time.:fish:

I know why people shoot a 10ML-II, because I shoot one for the same reasons.:thumbup:

I do like your rhyme!:goodstuff:

Delmer

Just some return humor poking.
Sooner or later someone in your area (I’m quite familiar with) will be buying a Remington Ultimate I imagine from Gobles. Guess I need to take my 10ML-II up to 2500fps with a 250gr bullet to keep 1-step ahead, safely of course.
:D :D

Ed

I never use magnum loads for hunting. Have tried them at the range and don't like the grouping. I use 80 gr. BH209 for 250 gr. SST or 90 gr. for a 300 gr. SST. I have dropped deer out to 200 yds. At the range, I have shot clover leafs with this combination at 100 yds. and 5'' groups at 200 yds. This was with my CVA Kodiak Magnum which was around a 350.00 gun in 2002. Yesterday, I picked up a CVA Accura V2 Magnum which is supposed to be more accurate because of the Bergera barrel. I will find out this week what it likes. I was happy with my Kodiak, but I needed a new toy.

DJB

Not everyone has the same criteria when it comes to a firearm, including ML’s and what they decide is best for them and their needs. You obviously have found yours as I have found mine in the 10ML-II smokeless.

Accuracy out to 200yds is MOA or quite often less with the 250SST. With a muzzle velocity of around 2300fps this bullet can fragment under 75yds. This fragment condition can be remedied with an all copper bullet and the velocity can be taken even higher if I choose. What I do like is that the cross-hairs never leave a deer’s body out to 200yds using the velocity mentioned and that’s a big plus for my need.

I respect an individual’s choice in this area and hope your new V2 Magnum Toy meets your expectations.


Ed

Went to the range yesterday and started at 50yds. Was 6'' low and 1'' to the left with 80 gr. of BH209 and a 250 sst. 2 more shots and on the bull. The next 5 made the hole bigger. Next time the 100yd. range. After that the 200yd. Then I will try heavier loads to see what it does. Loading was a breeze and it did not change from the first to the last shot with no cleaning. Easy to clean with Ed's Red. My Kodiak isn't stainless so it takes more to clean. The Accura sits well on my shoulder and is very a comfortable fit for me. It is lighter than my Kodiak but the felt recoil seems the same. After yesterday, I have no regrets on this piece.