Does anyone know where you would find out how many surplus tags for moose are available per WMU?
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Does anyone know where you would find out how many surplus tags for moose are available per WMU?
http://files.ontariogovernment.ca/mn...s-Tag-List.pdf
Try this site.....
Confused.. It says that the phone line opens August 18... 2013.... But the top of the form says surplus tags 2014
Thats not what I'm seeing !Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Thanks for the link. How does anyone know how many surplus tags are available for each WMU though? I guess it's the luck of the draw. You call in and ask???Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
They fixed it then. The one i downloaded a few days ago had that error.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
just aquestion on surplus tags they say there is surplus in wmu 21a how is that possible when hunters in pool 2 didn't get a tag
Call the MNR and ask why we were told that after pool one is drawn that if there are extra tags they go to pool two.Have a friend that is calling regarding surplus tags in 29 for bow.
Unsure if this is how it works... But did your group get a tag? The p1 guy in our group got a tag.. The p2 guys did not.. So maybe once your group gets a tag the while group is removed from the draw?
Thats how it works. Once one member of your group gets drawn, everyone else is pulled out as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
So.. How do some groups get bull and cow tags? It multiple bull tags?Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
The only way, is that they applied in two groups, or more, or applied individually or a combination. It depends on the guaranteed group size. If you have 6, P1 hunters , and the guaranteed group size is 3, they would apply as two groups, and each group would get a tag. Or, if the guaranteed size was. 3, and the other three applied as individuals, and one or more lucked out and got tags .Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Most of the surplus tags are unused or unapplied for northern resident tags. It's almost impossible to draw bull or cow in pool 2. But I have drawn bull on second choice... The rules for the draw are quite clear and posted by the mnr. Then it comes down to math.
here's the way it works
In areas to the north I believe 10% get pulled out automatically for northern resident s (percentage may be off)
Guaranteed groups get there tags then.
After that the number of remaining applicants get divided by the number of remaining tags.. If that number is less than the guaranteed group size once rounded up to a whole number than the member of all groups that big or bigger get a tag... going to the member who hasn't drawn for the most years in a row.. After that whatever is left goes by random draw. If a guy in a group of 3 draws then all members in his group are pulled out of the draw. This goes until the applicants run out or the tags do...usually the latter. Then the process is repeated for choice 2. The pool 2 choice etc.
With that said most of the tags you see are northern resident surplus meaning No one from north of sudbury applied or they got tags the normal draw. Make sense now? There is no conspiracy here. I once thought the preference point system was better..until I did the math. Get more tools in your group or drive further.. that's the bottom line
once your group gets a tag, the others still get put in the draw as individuals. applying as a group in essence, gets you two kicks at the can.
J Thomas. .. you are absolutely not correct. Once a group member draws.. that's it. Period. All members removed from the draw process.
Correct !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenfew
You are correct, FrozenfewQuote:
Originally Posted by Frozenfew
you are absolutely correct that most of the surplus tags are left overs from the northern draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenfew
the way these tags are allocated is lunacy.. the first draw is open to all the northerners and the southerners .... then they have a special draw reserved for this NORTHERN ONLY DRAW. 10% of the original tags were already pulled out ... because there were not enough northerners available all those unclaimed go to surplus.
I called last year and wrote here also that the MNR should have the northern draw FIRST... get all the northerners (as many as possible) satisfied and out of the main draw. then conduct the main draw and satisfy all the remaining applicants! If you bought your tag and APPLIED then how the H#ll can there be surplus TAGS.. you paid the $, entered on time, selected your preference and unit (played their game) and because of the way they shuffle the nut under the shell you don't get a tag yet there is surplus!
gov't at it's best ! unit 19 I believe had 150ish tags (bow) last year - bull - 10% were pulled for the northern draw ..guess how many northerners where in a position for those tags - ONE - 1 stinking tag was given out.... the other 14 went to surplus for the mid august speed dialing contest.
how did buying a tag on time ... applying as per the rules ... not getting a tag .... and then it turns into another type of lottery ...
when did the MNR become Ontario Lottery Commission?
what's the problem? the tag issuers in Indiana can't write a logarithm to fix this surplus thing ....
so the MNR has to have some of their staff answer the phones at their leisure, after 530, in mid august!
our tag system is not perfect by any means .. and any plan is better then no plan, but this surplus tags in units where applicants are going without just reeks of a loophole that needs closing ...
on another note if the 10% of northern tags are not being used up at least drop the ratio down to 5 or 6% and get those tags in the hands of the rightful applicants ... the biggest beef I hear all the time is from the north because they can't get tags .. yet over 90% of the tags pulled for them in my unit go to surplus?? DUH??? LACK OF INTEREST? HMMMM
THERE SHOULD NEVER, NOWAY, EVER, BE SURPLUS TAGS UNTIL ALL APPLICANTS -POOL 1, POOL 2, GROUPS, SINGLES - WHATEVER ARE FILLED!
Sk33t3r. The reason there is surplus though is that 95% of people are drawing tags in some of these archery units like 19 , 18a, and 21 a and b. The northern residents are probably not applying for them because they don't want to deal with the masses of people with so many tags issued. The rules are clearly laid out and if you want a northern tag...move north or call. I got through after 2 hours last year and a bull tag in 19 was still available! It's not the perfect system but it's not terrible. I'd wager to say that you didn't apply to 19 anyways because your odds of getting a tag would be really good as an individual applicant..2 is almost a guarantee in a couple of units with a bow as well. Personally I think the only way they could improve the system is to allocate a % of tags to groups of 2-4 in areas where the guaranteed group size is 8 or larger. But I understand why there is a northern allocation and accept it. There are far more injustices in moose management to get mad about. If you understand the rules, analyze the data and do the math you can get multiple tags with only a couple of guys. Hope you draw soon!
My complaint is with the northern resident tag allocation....period. What makes northern residents worthy of preferential treatment ? The resource is owned by ALL residents. The lion's share of the money generated into the economies are from "southerners" or "easterners".
Given MNRF's rationale, we "southerners" should get preferential treatment where turkey tags are concerned !
I agree with getting rid of the northern resident tags.
Well I would assume shooting a moose for some northern residents is a sustenance issue. Cheap meat where it's harder to earn a living. I realize it's their choice to live there but it also your choice too. Have you had a hard time drawing a turkey license?? That logic is flawed. What area did you apply for with how many p1 applicants and didn't draw a tag if you don't mind me asking
No, the logic is not flawed. The fact is, both are resources that are supposed to be equally owned by all Ontario residents. The fact that very few, if any northerners take advantage of the tag allocation does not support your "sustenance" theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenfew
With respect to your query about our group, I have moose hunted for over 35 years. Our group has seen several changes to tag allocations, from the days when every hunter got a tag for any moose, to obviously the present draw system. We have learned to study data, keep our group the optimum size and/or move to other WMU's where tags were easier to get. We have not missed one year yet, where we didn't get at least one tag. We also have never missed filling our tags.
I'm not goin to earn brownie points here, but I'll play devil 's advocate regarding the northern draw.
I believe the northern draw is 5% not 10
MNR employees will be the first to tell you they are understaffed and in vast expances of northern Ontario, much of their information comes the eyes and mouth of the people in the bush in these parts, the northern residents. the people who are in these woods 2-3 days a week as opposed 2-3 weeks a year. Much of the road and bush maintenance is done by northern residents or reported to mnr by the people who live here.
yes we choose to live here, its because we love love hunting and fishing and the outdoors more than most, I mean we came here, came back, or moved here for it!. The percentage of northern residents who fish and hunt and contribute to the MNR, PER CAPITA, is greater than southern Ontario.
IMO, the biggest reason is cuz the moose hunt is the only hunt some of us have! North easter Ontario has an invisible deer population and no turkeys. At least the people of southern Ontario can come and hunt moose, I can't go and hunt deer and turkey down south unless I have access to property. with no family or friends living in that area, gaining access to hunt is near impossible, heck I read here from southern people trying trying to find land, at least you can knock on doors. This land is all of ours, not like southern Ontario. I suppose I could cold call random people? and ive tried to hunt in a couple simcoe county forest as well as melancton (sp). not fun and it was hostile. fortunately I have secured a area to hunt turkey but it took me years. I have an aunt who has prop on Manitoulin to hunt deer. the list is an arm long for people begging me to take them to either, its an opportunity we don't have.
so we do get a moose hunt but most of us would love to hunt deer or turkey on your property, or your uncles, or your neighbours who you stacked wood for and did odd jobs to gain his trust and permission.
I'm not saying any of it is gospel, or the reason, but is my thought and the explanation I give the lads from bowmanville to peterborough that come to hunt moose with me opening week get. Although the northern tag is a burr in the southern hunters arse, I promise you 99 per cent of us would trade the northern tag in a heart beat to hunt deer for 3 months a year or experience the sound of that first gobble in late April or early may.
Although 5% is something, its still very hard for anyone to get a tag.
unit 28 I could not have said it better the only thing to add is the cost in the south I cant just pull my trailer to the side of the road and camp there
hey frozenQuote:
Originally Posted by Frozenfew
I know exactly how the tag game is played our group has 3 bull tags - so there!
BUT I have lots of friends who applied with less then the requirement for a guaranteed tag and now they enter the speed dialing contest and don't even know if they're going hunting until after Aug. 18 ....
Last year I sat with these guys and dialed away like a madman till 9pm and they never got though once!
What a huge waste of time!
and of course the better your phone the faster you can redial .... maybe they need to spend more on their phones!
I'd rather buy hunting equipment then a new phone!
MY MAJOR COMPLAINT IS
run the northern draw 1ST then run the main draw and satisfy ALL APPLICANTS before any surplus can be announced!
This whole moose draw process is about APPLYING.
MNR and the licence issuers have got it all half azz backwards!
I have right now 4 phones dedicated to the contest...Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
When one figures in the cost of going hunting I think all of us, northerners included, would find feeding our families cheaper by going to the grocery store. The day has gone where we should view feeding our families by hunting as a right or privilege. If all us southerners stayed in the south during the moose hunt there would be a lot less $$$ in the northern economy during that time of year. North or South....treat us all the same.
There would also be A LOT more moose ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
redd foxx When one figures in the cost of going hunting I think all of us, northerners included, would find feeding our families cheaper by going to the grocery store. The day has gone where we should view feeding our families by hunting as a right or privilege.
Redd
Keep this a secret! I've got my better half convinced that we're eatin cheap! free range, hormone free high speed beef!
Also I don't have too much of a beef with my friends from the north and this northern draw. They see and live with these animals and it would bug me somewhat watchin everyone else get to hunt them. So the northern draw is the northern draw - I just wish the MNR would change the order on their end and do it first! Then fulfill ALL APPLICANTS as the marbles fall ... only when this is done should there be a surplus!
I can agree with that. If there has to be preferential treatment for "northerners ", then get it out of the way first. However, it still rubs me the wrong way !Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
There are a lot of good reasons here to run the northern draw first, mainly so more of the tags can be distributed without going to surplus, which i agree with, BUT as long there is a northern resident draw the order must be as it is.
Out of the regs
Once the regular draw is complete, each northern resident
moose hunter who applied to a WMU north of the French
and Mattawa rivers (WMUs 1-42) and was unsuccessful (or
who was a member of a group that was unsuccessful) in
this year’s draw and was also unsuccessful in the previous
two annual draws, will automatically be entered into a
separate draw for the remaining five per cent of the quota
in the first choice WMU applied to in the regular draw.
The key words here are “was unsuccessful (or
who was a member of a group that was unsuccessful) in
this year’s draw and was also unsuccessful in the previous
two annual draws,”
The reason why the regular draw is run first is because all applicants must go through the regular draw to determine if they are eligible to be entered in the northern resident draw for the current year, unsuccessful in current year +2. Now if they changed the rule where the current years result is not a factor whether they get in the northern draw or not, then they could run the northern draw first.
Complaining how another group can't get a tag while having three is odd to say the least. The only problem with doing the northern draw first is that no one would get the second chance at an already easy tag to aquire. Rules tend to be only loved when they are in one's favour. Guaranteed that over 5 % of the draw is northern residents so if they are getting drawn regular draw most others should be as well... what jets my chain is the tags allocated to outfitters that are foreign nationals.. that doesn't help the economy much
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenfew
odd yes I am odd
BUT if this whole moose draw is about APPLYING then those who applied should be satisfied before surplus. end of rant!
and yes I know how the draws are conducted. These rules were made by some bean counter mathematician desk jockey who really didn't think this APPLICATION process out thoroughly. 99% of the draw is pretty solid but this last 1% is wrong.
SSOOOO change the fr#cken rules.
I'm sure it's set up to be about selling the most licenses... While masquerading as the fairest option for the most amount of customees
finally someone that realizes what's going on .... remember 3 yrs ago when the new changes to the moose draw were coming out. It was well understood that wives and children, brothers and sisters, friends and colleagues were buying tags and never had any plans on hunting. When one of these persons got a tag they transferred to the hunter. The MNR said changes were coming. I think there were 120,000 moose hunters on record at the time but I bet only 80,000 ever went to the woods! If tag transfer was stopped totally then the MNR and the coffers of Ontario would be light the revenue from those extra 40,000 tags. So to help out the hunters they made up a new plan. An individual can transfer only once then must accept a tag next time around. Their words were - it would curtail the transfer game! guess what .. hunters can do the math so to offset the NEW MNR plan guys had to buy a few more tags to stay in the game. Licence sales went up and a new source of revenue was born ..same 80,000 guys hittin the woods . The only change was a well devised gov't plan to sell the same resource and get more revenue ... funny that the resource is in a mess with declining moose populations across the province. bears everywhere, wolf population rising (unless you pay $25) - a growing first nations population with the addition of new rights for METIS . and of course the new caribou WMU's with the shoot off all the moose to starve a wolf (protected unless you pay $25) thereby saving a caribou ... maybe????? we hope ... this last plan will take decades to see if it works ... and then decades to get the moose population back up ... you and I will be long dead by the time this happens!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenfew
I'm glad I shot my 10 moose when I did ... I can see lean years ahead! too bad wolves didn't taste as good as moose lots of them around.
Why don`t we have a draw for antlerless tags for southern Ontario residents as well and have it run first before the northern guys get into the draw?
Guys/gals. We are all in this together. Lets just get the most fair system for all that doesn't discriminate against anyone based on who they are or where they live or where they hunt.
don't hate on us "southeners" just because we'd like to share your paradise for a couple of weeks a year!
We all pay taxes, and in our way help to fund the MNR and all of its departments, I'm not rich by any stroke, but I do completely understand that in a capitalist society, the more money you have, the broader your horizons can be, you understand that concept don't you?
This year is the 6 consecutive year that I personally have been unsuccessfull in the moose draw, no biggie, maybe next year I'll be able to move to a Northern residence and improve my chances.....
Agreed and respect Frosty . Our chances though really don't improve although I own in both . I gave up almost in Ontario .Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty
TD
is a pool b individual eligible for a tag?
Depending on the WMU, some Pool 2 hunters have received tags. Most often though, they don't normally get tags.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie7
Edit: Brain fart... I answered according to the general draw, not the excess tag issue. !
Quack-Kills answered it correctly.
yes - As long as you applied to the draw and was unsuccessful you are eligible for a surplus tag
The surplus line is now live...started at 5:30 et
Have any of you got the line? I got the answering machine at 5:45.
Took an hour.. With 4 phones calling... But I got a cow tag
I'm at just over 300 calls now. finally got ringing then it hung up on me after a minute. still trying
ringing again now...
and just hung up again....
glad you got 1, at least the system is workingQuote:
Originally Posted by topher
I had it ringing 20+ times... Sometimes would ring.. And ring... Sometimes it would go and say "due to technical difficulties... Once I got through I spent another 10 minute on hold.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
hey topher was that for 21a did they have any left?
Didn't ask how many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie7
And yes..
Sometimes I have to write it all down!Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
If all the groups got their tags, and not enough groups applied to use the allotted tags. This then creates a few surplus tags for the WMU.
If you weren't in the original draw you can't apply. (I read that clearly) . If your in a successful group you get pulled out ?
Then my logic would indicate there is no one else to get a tag, unless you were unsuccessful in another WMU , and want to try a different WMU.
Only about my 7th year hunting swamp donkeys. I'm on speed dial . I've been through the draw results and further onto the link to surplus tags. Not much clarity . I have friends that to my knowledge applied as groups in 21 A , then later bought a surplus tag in previous years.
If I don't get a live person on the phone,I will be broken hearted.
Tallied up the 2 phones that log calls.. I had 198+183 on the two cell phones.. Plus whatever my work phone and my house land line had... Before I got throughQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
I'm still trying here.. been 2 1/2h hours right now.. got it to ring 5 times and no one answered. go figure..
over 1500 calls on two phones..
plus two of my buddies doing the same.. i'm not sure this is working right..
do they answer outdoor caed center?
I got it to ring 4 times, and the 5th time gave me an archery cow tag...
not sure what do you mean... 18003633730 , just constantly busy
I finally got through at 8:10. 1200 calls later. Only adult gun tags left are wmu 1 and 16c
If your group was successful, all group members are pulled from the draw. Each unsuccessful group member can still try for an excess tag.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart22
thanks Jeff
here we go again.. rings right to the end and tells me that 'person you are trying to reach is not available'...
this is stupid.. only MNR can create junk like this..
Thanx I'll get the rest of group to stop calling.
Got through at 7 and no cow archery tags left for 29.
this is funny, even after 21:00, still busy signal.. hahaha
This is a joke.. this could've been so easily implemented over the internet and it would be done in 5 min, at the most.. what a joke..
That appears logical, and that is what I was applying.
I have now wasted 3.5 hours of my life on speed dial. Never, ever again. I will see if I can find a calf in 63A, closer, and a very pleasant time of the year. Have a great moose hunt, everyone.
1002 speed dials on one of the 4 phones. Got through once and was asked to hold please. After a minute the line went dead. Looks like no adult tag again.
outback
What a waste of time!!!!
I'm surprised anybody got through..
Well we had 6 guys trying, between us we probably made over 1500 calls but we did get a Bull tag for 21A :)
Congrats on 21A....That was our meal ticket also...
Stuart your hunting calves this year? Are you not heading north?
Donnie
Oh how I miss all the FUN... NOT :silly:
I got through twice in the past and got tags not so this year, might actually make it some what fair I have no issue with it except for number one hunters that missed out. I think they should have a final draw after the northern draw for anyone else left that applied
I would really like to investigate this idiocy of phone calling for surplus tags. Did they have one person answering one line phone??
I understand your frustration however it would be very unreasonable to speculate there was 1 person answering the phone....Quote:
Originally Posted by boban
I had a girl answer my phone. She didn't sound happy. You?
Also had a girl but she was fairly friendly.
Not correct. I asked the lady on the phone while I was getting my surplus tag. They are from the northern resident draw. Northern residents can only get a tag every 3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe
There is a problem with the way the program is run for surplus tags. Any people wishing a suplus tag after the main draw and northern draw must phone for 4 hours trying to get a surplus tag. They should organize the draw for suplus tags by having a person interested in a suplus tag by having them register by computer or phone before this draw . Then the surplus tags could be allocated by using a random computer draw system. This would alliviate having to sit by a phone for 4 hours and the possibility of not even getting through the phone line to get any suplus tags.
I GOT THROUGH AT 5.33PM!
I almost hung up because it was a message saying the the MNR hrs are 9-530 and at 530 there's a surplus draw starting. I looked at the phone and it was 5:33 ??? DUH!? WTF??? I wondered!
then it went to French ... then back to English asking me to put in the extension of the party I was interested in .... then said it all again in French ..
I looked at the guys and said somethings happening but I think I'm in the wrong office. I looked at the phone to make sure I redialled the correct #...
2 minutes later a girl came on and said hello.
I said I was calling for the surplus. Then someone asked for the outdoors card #
My 3rd dial! Handed my phone to my buddy. He got a cow tag to go with our 3 bull tags!
Then we ate sausage/corn-on-the-cob and had a few beers!
It was a weird way to get a tag! Almost like my call was forwarded ...
Oh well we're goin huntin and happy for it!
Didn't even bother this year. Luckily we already got a bull and cow tag in the draw.