My retriever sometimes breaks early for a retrieve

So my lab is a 4 year old male I have trained him to hunt with me waterfowl and upland. He has done very well for a dog trained by someone without any experience training. He is very good at flushing grouse and woodcock and always stays in the range I want him listens well and I can direct him and even stop him until I get close if he gets birdy in an area. With waterfowl he sits patiently watching for birds, has made between 50-60 retrieves this year understands hand signals I can send him any direction without much trouble. BUT he doesn't always wait until I tell him to go for a bird, if I tell him right befor I shoot to stay he will sometimes but not always and I would realy like to stop this and have him more steady. If anyone could give suggestions as to what I should do drills/something while hunting to work on this and have myself a steady dog I would greatly appreciate it. From late summer right through hunting season I work with him almost every day so I can work a drill or two into our normal drills.
Thanks for your help
Chris

Part of the problem you face is that his misbehaviour has been allowed for some time according to his age. Can this be corrected...certainly. If you have ecollar conditioned him then you have a tool to correct the behaviour. If you have not ecollared....consider it.
On the other hand have a friend shoot and you stop and correct the dog when he breaks. Set him up to give you that opportunity and recall immediately if he goes early, do not allow any reward. Do not be Mister nice guy...he has to know he is in deep trouble should HE decide to go.
Usually doing backyard drills with bumpers does little to correct, you need to replicate hunting conditions with guns and birds.

You are wise to try and correct this . I see too many dogs in motion before guns have stopped. This is definitely a major safety issue for the dog. Some people condone this as we see this happen routinely on some of our 'hunting' shows. How do you deal with a cripple with your dog already moving? We clearly know that dogs in motion compromise their safety and certainly their accuracy in marking fallen birds.

Get a friend to help you and keep a standard.......remember......sit means sit.

Thanks for the reply Krakadawn. Yes he is ecollar conditioned so I will try to correct him using it. I often hunt solo or with one other person and for that reason haven't considered not shooting to have the remote ready and if I am shooting and he breaks early he is so far into the retrieve by the time I safety my gun and set it down/grab the remote I'm worried that this May be to late to correct him. What do you think should I bring him back at that time hold him for 30 seconds then send him? Next time I'm out I will bring along a few friends and plan on not doing much shooting to ensure I can immediately correct him when he breaks. As you stated not sure drills will do anything it's a different ball game all together when the gun and real birds are involved he never breaks when we are doing drills.

Good to hear you have him CC. Timing is critical in any correction. Ideally the second he goes in motion is when the correction and verbal command are given and I would return him to a complete sit. Ideally he would not be sent if you had a second dog there but I understand that may not be possible. What you are trying to do is not reward poor behaviour.
In training we usually look for at least 7 correct repetitions before I would start to consider the correction ingrained but always be prepared.
We often hunt with more than 1 dog in the hide. One of my partners has a dog that chooses to go on her own at times. Predawn he takes her for a short walk and reminds her of sitting, both verbal and whistle mixed in with a few collar nicks to remind her things have not changed. So you would here him say sit, then walk, then sit with a nick, then sit ....you get the picture. Returning to the blind she is much more in a training mode as opposed to 'wahoo' let me go!

Thanks again Krakadawn great advise I will be working on this the next few times out I have just been letting it go because he dose everything else so good it didn't bother me much I was just happy to have a dog that got my birds but have realized lately as my group of hunting buddy's have all bought coffin blinds that it's dangerous because the guns are no longer 5-6' in the air but much closer to the ground although I have bought him a low profile doghouse type blind and I find he doesn't break as readily out of it as he dose if we are just sitting in the reeds or a stand up blind. I have very much enjoyed training him to where he is now and look forward to this challenge also as I'm sure if I put the time in we will be successfull and that's a great feeling. I have to give some credit to where my dog is now to you and a few others on here who are always giving great advise to others with their dogs as I always follow this forum and have found a lot of the advise given to be very useful to me and my dog.

ideally the corrections should be done in training not hunting. The best thing is to get with a training group where you can focus on your dog and get in the corrections you need.
deb

Hi longgun
i don't think there is any training group in my area could be wrong but I think I would have to do some traveling to find this kind of group. Could you suggest possible training that would help me I think the problem is that he won't break during training but only when we are in a hunting situation. I'm open to suggestions though
thanks Chris

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Originally Posted by Fishinchris

Hi longgun
i don't think there is any training group in my area could be wrong but I think I would have to do some traveling to find this kind of group. Could you suggest possible training that would help me I think the problem is that he won't break during training but only when we are in a hunting situation. I'm open to suggestions though
thanks Chris

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I am about 30-45 minutes away from you and train on a very regular basis....I am not a pro trainer but my dogs dont break as we have our standards set and as mentioned sit means sit....I run a half a dozen zinger wingers and throw dead fowl ducks and geese live pigeons bumpers, dokkens from mini mallards to large canadas....we train in hunting scenarios and are consistant with all our commands and the dogs compliance....if your like to com eout let me know your more than welcome to join us...I am not a pro but all my pups are either GHRC or their pups and they got it going on...let me know


camo

A common problem with steadiness is that the dog can perform well in training and then consistently break at the shot while actually hunting. This develops because (a) the dog can tell the difference and (b) the hunter (especially if hunting alone) can't correct or even monitor the dog while shooting. From my experience, you have to be prepared to deal with this not only by reinforcing in training but by giving up hunting opportunities to enforce the steadiness.

The route that both Kraka and welsh have mentioned, are what worked for me on this same issue.

She never, ever, broke in training, but out in the field when the guns were blazing and birds were dropping, she's get so amped up, and out of the hide she'd go. She wouldn't fully break and head out for the retrieve, she get out in front and wait to be sent, but the fact is, she moved without a release.

1 hunt, was all it took, put the gun down, let others shoot, and I worked with the dog. She hasn't done it since.

My one ol gal broke on her first retrieve every year till I retired her at 13 . I would just tie her to something solid and she would bounce out and get checked . The rest of the season she would be rock solid .

TD

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Originally Posted by 400bigbear

My one ol gal broke on her first retrieve every year till I retired her at 13 . I would just tie her to something solid and she would bounce out and get checked . The rest of the season she would be rock solid .

TD

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I have tied dogs to me with an 18" lead and as mentioned only had to correct the once on the first shoot and thats what it takes....just some simple reinforcement and they catch on pretty quick

Invite me out hunting with you and we can take turns working our dogs.deb

Good to see a number of you have high standards when it comes to breaking and have some strategies that work for you....that's what is important.
Most comments distinguish between training and hunting. There are many dogs steady to shot in training but break on a regular basis when hunting. Be careful not to allow that to continue as it can be hard to overcome and dogs will take the punishment as long as they get the reward(the bird).
As I said previously, for those who are not absolutely steady then remind them just prior to shooting time....put them in 'training' mode.

What was not mentioned was creeping. That can be a totally different issue with dog not breaking but not remaining on sit either. It's wise in training to make this an absolute.....meaning accepting NO movement. For those who read/watch dvds, you'll see Bill Hillman steadying dogs at a very early age. This has nothing to do with retrieving and everything to do with obedience. You've heard it.....sit means sit!
Steady dogs usually mark the falls of birds more accurately.....important whether you hunt or compete. Dogs who are sitting can be helped by the handler in refining the line given for a retrieve, the creeper is pretty hard to help but I often see handlers using their hand positioned above the dogs rear end as he's sent.....guess the dog has another set of eyes there also.

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Originally Posted by krakadawn

Part of the problem you face is that his misbehaviour has been allowed for some time according to his age. Can this be corrected...certainly. If you have ecollar conditioned him then you have a tool to correct the behaviour. If you have not ecollared....consider it.
On the other hand have a friend shoot and you stop and correct the dog when he breaks. Set him up to give you that opportunity and recall immediately if he goes early, do not allow any reward. Do not be Mister nice guy...he has to know he is in deep trouble should HE decide to go.
Usually doing backyard drills with bumpers does little to correct, you need to replicate hunting conditions with guns and birds.

You are wise to try and correct this . I see too many dogs in motion before guns have stopped. This is definitely a major safety issue for the dog. Some people condone this as we see this happen routinely on some of our 'hunting' shows. How do you deal with a cripple with your dog already moving? We clearly know that dogs in motion compromise their safety and certainly their accuracy in marking fallen birds.

Get a friend to help you and keep a standard.......remember......sit means sit.

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Excellent advice as usual from Krakadawn. I'm no retriever trainer, but many principles of training are the same.

We need to use a friend to help more often , so we can concentrate on the dog.

Wow thanks for all the responses folks I truly appreciate every one of them sounds like I need to plan on not shooting until I can have him steady or if going out just the dog and I then leash him to me or the blind to be sure he doesn't break.
thanks again the willingness to help amongst dog people is just awsome
Chris

I find it disturbing the constant reference of using E collars . That's not working a dog but rushing and forcing one . Retrievers have been guided missles doing what they do for a 100 years or more but this new fangled electronic has been around , how long ? 20 years maybe and closer to 10 . Yuo pros promote this crap constantly and constantly I have dogs sent to me whose drive etc has been destroyed and I have to deal with it . Yes in the right hands it can speed things up and correct things but in 90 % it is just plain f "in wrong . Words . a lead or even rocks in a beer can correct most . I'm picking up the pieces of you force e collar folks . Thanks .

TD

Hi 400 BB
i agreed with you on a lot of what you have said that in the wrong hands or used improperly it can be a bad thing but for myself I consider it a very effective tool. The number one reason I use mine is for the safety of my dog. He is almost always with me comes to work with me or wherever I go. About 2-3 times a day I let him out of the truck to take care of business a quick game of fetch or just to check out the job site/stretch his legs. This is often close to a road that he is unfamiliar with and I fear that if he makes a run for the road weather it be for another dog or an other animal/bird a shock may be the only thing between him running out on the road or not. That being said he listens well without it and this has never happened but I just feel better/more in control when he has it on. I guess it offers piece of mind for me and also in a hunting situation when he is all fired up all it takes most times is a beep and I can make him sit right beside me or at 150 yards without yelling and scaring birds off. Like you mentioned though used improperly it can destroy the drive in a good dog a buddy of mine picked up a GSP that had been mistreated the owner had a ecollar and used it out of frustration and to often when he got the dog she trembled if she even saw the collar without the collar on she is the best pointer I have hunted over but with the collar won't leave his heels really to bad to see this so I can see your point but I'm still quite glad that I have the collar like I said for me it just offers piece of mind.
Chris

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Originally Posted by 400bigbear

I find it disturbing the constant reference of using E collars . That's not working a dog but rushing and forcing one . Retrievers have been guided missles doing what they do for a 100 years or more but this new fangled electronic has been around , how long ? 20 years maybe and closer to 10 . Yuo pros promote this crap constantly and constantly I have dogs sent to me whose drive etc has been destroyed and I have to deal with it . Yes in the right hands it can speed things up and correct things but in 90 % it is just plain f "in wrong . Words . a lead or even rocks in a beer can correct most . I'm picking up the pieces of you force e collar folks . Thanks .

TD

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No on ever said forcing, it's called reinforcing. Teach first then correct behaviour the way you would any time. An ecollar can and is a great tool.
Solid collar programs have been around for quite a bit more than 10 yrs...time slips by you know.

I'm not a Pro but I find it strange that people send dogs to you to correct? For what...especially if you're trying to link the ecollar to that argument. By the way 'we' are not the 'force e collar' folks as you say.

I have trained field champions without the collar, it can be done but modern day training programs and ecollars have taken dog training to a much higher level and assisted many people to do so. And as far as 'drive; go, my group of dogs are as hard a driving bunch that you can find.....so are literally most of today's competitive FT retrievers.

Rocks in beer cans are pretty ineffective at 200 yds...just like teaching a dog to slide down a shoreline without cheating etc.They may have their place but certainly not in training AA retrievers today. We haven't even talked about dog safety.

You are most welcome to be anti collar, not sure what level you train dogs at but don't damn the 'rest' who choose to avail ourselves to other training tools other than rocks in beer cans.

Big Bear....respectfully...if you believe current day collar programs force and rush a dog then you are badly informed about the valuable role they play in training, perhaps you need to spend some time with some good trainers...I'd welcome you anytime to join in