Small game during controlled hunt

So I've filled my deer tag this week and was trying to confirm if I'm interpreting the regs properly for hunting small game during the controlled deer hunt. Doesn't seem to be a restriction south of the mattawa/French river but just making sure. If I head out with my .223 for coyote I'll still be okay even though it's shotgun season for deer? I am in wmu 80. I do have the controlled hunt licence but tag is full. Would leave the .270 at home so it looks a bit better in hunting for coyote. Just looking for the confirmation of my interpretation of the regs.

Thanks.

From top of page 60 of the 2014 Ontario hunting regs:

Firearms
Big game, including deer, may only be hunted with a
firearm (this includes bows). When hunting deer, you may
use or carry a firearm of the type permitted for hunting deer
at that time in that Wildlife Management Unit (WMU). For
example, when hunting deer during a bows-only season, you
may use or carry only bow hunting equipment; you may not
carry a rifle or shotgun for hunting other species.

I donot think you can carry you center fire well the controlled hunt is on .you can us your 22 rimfire or shotgun with small shot .I have not got the regs in front of me but I am sure someone will chime in Dutch

Restriction does not appy in Southern ontario in cases where there is NOT a rifle season.

Check Sec. 77, Ont. Regulation 665/98.
Restriction does not apply in the south where there is an open season for bows only. So, to answer the OP's question, you can't hunt small game with a .223 during a controlled hunt. Once the Controlled hunt is over, you can use your .223 to hunt small game.
When in doubt, call the MNRF....
77(1) (a) - O.Reg 665/98

Unlawfully possess rifle with muzzle energy greater than 400 foot-pounds

Set Fine: $300.00

Total Payable: $365.00

A person hunting small game, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, shall not possess or use,

(a) a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds;

Thanks so much! Appreciate the assistance in interpreting the regs.

I emailed a CO last year about hunting in the same bush as my friends while theu were deer hunting and me small game hunting he said it was legal and i could only use my .22 rifle during the shotgun season for deer. And also must wear orange .

Call the MNR and find out exactly what's allowed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Restriction does not appy in Southern ontario in cases where there is NOT a rifle season.

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he is talking about are controlled hunt with shotguns Dutch

"If you are hunting small game in an area where there is an open season for deer, moose, elk, or black bear, you may not possess or use a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds or shells loaded with ball or with shot larger than no. 2 shot (non-toxic equivalents include steel shot larger than triple BBB, or bismuth larger than double BB), unless you possess a valid licence to hunt deer, moose, elk or black bear as the case may be. This restriction does not apply south of the French and Mattawa Rivers during an open season for deer that is restricted to the use of bows."

This quote is from the regulations summary, so since you possess a deer hunting license then you can use a .223 to hunt small game, that is what is says to me, but you must wear hunter orange as there is an open gun season for moose, deer or elk in the area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

"If you are hunting small game in an area where there is an open season for deer, moose, elk, or black bear, you may not possess or use a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds or shells loaded with ball or with shot larger than no. 2 shot (non-toxic equivalents include steel shot larger than triple BBB, or bismuth larger than double BB), unless you possess a valid licence to hunt deer, moose, elk or black bear as the case may be. This restriction does not apply south of the French and Mattawa Rivers during an open season for deer that is restricted to the use of bows."

This quote is from the regulations summary, so since you possess a deer hunting license then you can use a .223 to hunt small game, that is what is says to me, but you must wear hunter orange as there is an open gun season for moose, deer or elk in the area.

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Fox...read previous post with the actual charge section....not a summary!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Fox...read previous post with the actual charge section....not a summary!

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Read the exception, he has a license to hunt deer

"unless you possess a valid licence to hunt deer, moose, elk or black bear as the case may be"

Since he has a license to hunt deer then he can hunt small game with a center fire rifle as the case is.
He does not have an illegal firearm since he can use a center fire firearm for hunting small game if he possesses a valid hunting license for hunting deer. It does not say that he has to be in possession of an un-used game seal, just a valid hunting license for deer, bear or moose as the case may be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Read the exception, he has a license to hunt deer

"unless you possess a valid licence to hunt deer, moose, elk or black bear as the case may be"

Since he has a license to hunt deer then he can hunt small game with a center fire rifle as the case is.
He does not have an illegal firearm since he can use a center fire firearm for hunting small game if he possesses a valid hunting license for hunting deer. It does not say that he has to be in possession of an un-used game seal, just a valid hunting license for deer, bear or moose as the case may be.

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Are you saying he can carry a center fire rifle during a shotgun/ML only controlled hunt????? Don't think so ! Read the part where the exception you want me to read, does not apply to the south.....where the OP hunts....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Are you saying he can carry a center fire rifle during a shotgun/ML only controlled hunt????? Don't think so ! Read the part where the exception you want me to read, does not apply to the south.....where the OP hunts....

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Does he have a validation for hunting during the controlled hunt? If so then why would he not be able to, based on the regulations as they are written. Even if he did not have a validation for the controlled hunt he still has a valid big game license, the season is not open for him but he does have a valid big game license during a hunting season that is open to some people.

Can you use a rifle when there is a turkey hunt on? Yes, just don't have turkey decoys out.
Can you use a rifle to hunt small game during a bear hunting season? Yes, but you better have a bear hunting license.
Can you use a shotgun loaded with BB for coyotes between Sept and Nov? Yes, but if you are in an area with a bear open season go get yourself a bear hunting license.

The part where you say "does not apply in the south" is actually an exception that allows small game hunters to hunt with firearms that are over the 400 ft-lbs based on the understanding that the open season for deer must be for bow only. This does not say anywhere that it does not allow someone to hunt with larger shot size or a larger rifle if they hold a valid hunting license for hunting deer, bear or moose.

If I go hunting for deer and use my game seal, I can still hunt the rest of the week for small game, heck I can shoot a rabbit with my 30-30 on the walk out dragging my sealed deer, which would be small game hunting during an open season for deer with a firearm over 400 ft-lbs of energy.

Would it matter if I shoot a rabbit with my shotgun during my controlled hunt?

If what you say would be true then anyone who was hunting after applying their big game game seal, or not, cannot use anything larger than a 22LR or #2 shot for small game from any time from Sept 1-Nov 31st in most of Ontario.

You really should learn how to read regulations. I gave you the actual sections involved. We are speaking about the south. There are no gun seasons for deer, except controlled hunts with shotgun or ML. The OP has filled his deer tag during the controlled hunt. He cannot hunt deer alone since he has no game seal. If he uses your argument, which is not valid, he still cannot say he is deer hunting while carrying a center fire rifle. He can only say he is small game hunting with his .223, which is clearly prohibited by the previously posted section.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

You really should learn how to read regulations. I gave you the actual sections involved. We are speaking about the south. There are no gun seasons for deer, except controlled hunts with shotgun or ML. The OP has filled his deer tag during the controlled hunt. He cannot hunt deer alone since he has no game seal. If he uses your argument, which is not valid, he still cannot say he is deer hunting while carrying a center fire rifle. He can only say he is small game hunting with his .223, which is clearly prohibited by the previously posted section.

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South of the French and Mattawa rivers includes the majority of rifle deer hunting in Ontario, very few areas use controlled hunts, only in SW Ontario, which is a very small section of the province, sorry about that.

He can hunt small game with a rifle over 400 ft-lbs if he has a valid big game license, it says nothing about an un-filled game seal.

Does that make sense? A deer license is not a game seal, we went over this many times.

The onus is on him to prove that he is hunting small game and not hunting deer, including pushing for other members of the group while holing a center fire rifle.

The first week of Dec is a controlled hunt near Stratford, I can legally go out back to the back field with my 30-30 and blast as many rounds into the field as I want but the onus is on me to prove I am not hunting. I also do not have to wear hunter orange while doing this. I can also pull the plug from my shotgun and shoot with a 15 round magazine in my pump gun as long as I can prove I am not hunting.

No where in the regulations does it say that you have to be able to seal a big game animal, it just says that you have to have a valid license for deer, bear or moose if there is an open season for deer, bear or moose as the case may be.

I do not understand why deer hunting gets special rules to everything else. Many places in Ontario have open seasons for bear and nobody even considers that you need a bear license to hunt coyotes or wolves with a center fire rifle in November in Ontario while there is an open season for bear.

If you have to not have a firearm that cannot be used during all potential seasons then you would not be able to hunt with a rifle of any kind from April 25th to May 31, as this is turkey in many places of Ontario. You cannot go into the bush with any firearm between June 1st and August 31st north of the French and Mattawa rivers unless hunting bear at the end of August as there is no small game open seasons from those days in that area. You also cannot use any gun at any location that is not a legal range from Sept through Nov 31st without a big game license, because well, you may be hunting. You cannot shoot a gun during a controlled hunt unless you have a validation because you may be hunting.

You will know if you are hunting and what you are hunting.

Call the CO, don't ask on this site, but because there is a season that is open does not mean that you are not allowed to have a gun or shoot it, it means that you cannot be part of the hunt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Check Sec. 77, Ont. Regulation 665/98.
Restriction does not apply in the south where there is an open season for bows only. So, to answer the OP's question, you can't hunt small game with a .223 during a controlled hunt. Once the Controlled hunt is over, you can use your .223 to hunt small game.
When in doubt, call the MNRF....
77(1) (a) - O.Reg 665/98

Unlawfully possess rifle with muzzle energy greater than 400 foot-pounds

Set Fine: $300.00

Total Payable: $365.00

A person hunting small game, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, shall not possess or use,

(a) a rifle of greater muzzle energy than 400 foot-pounds;

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OK I meant Firearm..
But I can Still use my .17WSM as I am at but not "GREATER" then 400lbs.. I already check on that last year.
At 400 is ok. 400.1 is no no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

South of the French and Mattawa rivers includes the majority of rifle deer hunting in Ontario, very few areas use controlled hunts, only in SW Ontario, which is a very small section of the province, sorry about that.

He can hunt small game with a rifle over 400 ft-lbs if he has a valid big game license, it says nothing about an un-filled game seal.

Does that make sense? A deer license is not a game seal, we went over this many times.

The onus is on him to prove that he is hunting small game and not hunting deer, including pushing for other members of the group while holing a center fire rifle.

The first week of Dec is a controlled hunt near Stratford, I can legally go out back to the back field with my 30-30 and blast as many rounds into the field as I want but the onus is on me to prove I am not hunting. I also do not have to wear hunter orange while doing this. I can also pull the plug from my shotgun and shoot with a 15 round magazine in my pump gun as long as I can prove I am not hunting.

No where in the regulations does it say that you have to be able to seal a big game animal, it just says that you have to have a valid license for deer, bear or moose if there is an open season for deer, bear or moose as the case may be.

I do not understand why deer hunting gets special rules to everything else. Many places in Ontario have open seasons for bear and nobody even considers that you need a bear license to hunt coyotes or wolves with a center fire rifle in November in Ontario while there is an open season for bear.

If you have to not have a firearm that cannot be used during all potential seasons then you would not be able to hunt with a rifle of any kind from April 25th to May 31, as this is turkey in many places of Ontario. You cannot go into the bush with any firearm between June 1st and August 31st north of the French and Mattawa rivers unless hunting bear at the end of August as there is no small game open seasons from those days in that area. You also cannot use any gun at any location that is not a legal range from Sept through Nov 31st without a big game license, because well, you may be hunting. You cannot shoot a gun during a controlled hunt unless you have a validation because you may be hunting.

You will know if you are hunting and what you are hunting.

Call the CO, don't ask on this site, but because there is a season that is open does not mean that you are not allowed to have a gun or shoot it, it means that you cannot be part of the hunt.

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Your post has nothing to do with the OP ! By the way, I did go over this issue with the MNR.
You inject target shooting into the conversation when clearly that's not the issue. The facts are, you cannot carry a center fire .223 during a shotgun/ML controlled hunt, even if you hold a deer licence. You also cannot hunt small game in the OP's area with a .223, during any open big game season. Conduct yourself as you wish.
Edit: Go deer hunting by yourself without a game seal....let me know how that works out for you !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

OK I meant Firearm..
But I can Still use my .17WSM as I am at but not "GREATER" then 400lbs.. I already check on that last year.
At 400 is ok. 400.1 is no no.

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Thats pretty much what I was told as well !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

Your post has nothing to do with the OP ! By the way, I did go over this issue with the MNR.
You inject target shooting into the conversation when clearly that's not the issue. The facts are, you cannot carry a center fire .223 during a shotgun/ML controlled hunt, even if you hold a deer licence. You also cannot hunt small game in the OP's area with a .223, during any open big game season. Conduct yourself as you wish.
Edit: Go deer hunting by yourself without a game seal....let me know how that works out for you !

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He never said deer hunting, he also never said he would be alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

He never said deer hunting, he also never said he would be alone.

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Lol....that doesn't make a difference, but I bow to your superior knowledge and experience !!!!

665/98 Once again........

77. (1) A holder of a small game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, shall not possess or use, (a) a rifle of greater calibre or projectile power than a .22-calibre rim-fire rifle chambered for cartridges known as a .22 short, .22 long or .22 long rifle; or
(b) shells loaded with ball or shot larger than number two shot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (1).
(2) Despite clause (1) (b), a holder of a small game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, may possess and use,
(a) in the case of shot made of steel, shot that is not larger than triple BBB steel shot; or
(b) in the case of shot made of bismuth, shot that is not larger than double BB bismuth shot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (2).
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a holder of a small game licence hunting in that part of Ontario lying south of the French and Mattawa rivers during an open season for deer that is restricted to the use of bows. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (3).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skypilot

665/98 Once again........

77. (1) A holder of a small game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, shall not possess or use, (a) a rifle of greater calibre or projectile power than a .22-calibre rim-fire rifle chambered for cartridges known as a .22 short, .22 long or .22 long rifle; or
(b) shells loaded with ball or shot larger than number two shot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (1).
(2) Despite clause (1) (b), a holder of a small game licence, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, may possess and use,
(a) in the case of shot made of steel, shot that is not larger than triple BBB steel shot; or
(b) in the case of shot made of bismuth, shot that is not larger than double BB bismuth shot. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (2).
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a holder of a small game licence hunting in that part of Ontario lying south of the French and Mattawa rivers during an open season for deer that is restricted to the use of bows. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 77 (3).

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If this were the case in WMU 63 it would be illegal to use a rifle of greater power than a 22LR or shotgun loaded with steel shot larger than BBB or lead shot larger than #2 shot at any point for hunting small game from Sept 1st through Nov 30th, as there is an open season for bear in this area. No more shooting grouse with a high power, no more grabbing a rabbit on the way home, no more shooting a coyote or wolf and no more using T or F steel for goose.

The key point here is what is considered a "valid license to hunt deer, elk, bear or moose", as if you have a license to hunt these then you can use a non-restricted firearm to hunt small game without restriction as the case may be.

A game seal is not a license, a controlled hunt validation is not a license, we all agreed on this weeks ago, there were pictures on this site because people were always calling their game seal a "tag".

In some areas when you shoot a deer and seal it with your game seal your license becomes invalid at that moment, due to a lack of party hunting. This is not the case in Ontario, since we have party hunting your deer hunting license is valid as long as there is an open season that you are allowed to participate in. If you are allowed to be part of a controlled hunt, as part of the selection process you receive a validation for your license that allows you to hunt deer within the controlled hunt, no matter what type of firearms are allowed. If you now go out with your hunting party and shoot a deer, you seal the deer with your game seal, you can still hunt deer as part of a party. You cannot take any more deer than what your party has game seals for. If you then do a push for your group of guys and come across a coyote, you shoot said coyote, you have now hunted small game with a firearm that is more than 400 ft-lbs of energy, which, based on that flack that I am getting from here, would be illegal. Your license is still valid, which means what you have done, shooting that coyote, it 100% legal. Now, if you are not party hunting and you go out on a controlled hunt, you are in a shotgun only area, you have a deer come out, you shoot at the deer and it runs off. You collect your deer, apply your game seal and on the way home you see a grouse or a rabbit, you decide to shoot it for the pot that night, you would be small game hunting with a firearm over 400 ft-lbs of energy, not illegal.

So why if you can shoot small game with a shotgun that is over 400 ft-lbs during a period of time that just so happens to have a controlled hunt for deer going on would it be illegal to shoot a rabbit with a 22 Hornet while you still possess a valid deer hunting license, controlled hunt validation aside.

I understand the reason behind it, but the regulations are not written in a way that makes it illegal to hunt small game with a high powered rifle (taking bylaws out or the question) while an open season for deer, bear, elk or moose is on going if you have a hunting license for the game at which is open.

Another side to this people hunting with center fire rifles during an open season for deer, if they have a valid license to hunt bear and there is an open season for bear in that WMU then they can use slugs to hunt bunnies and they are within the letter of the law.

again we are talking about a southern unit that has a controlled hunt with shotguns and muzzle loaders. nobody can carry a centerfire or shotgun with large shot well the controlled hunt is taking place .you may hunt small game and ducks and geese well the controlled hunt is on but you must follow the rules laid out for that time period .Dutch

Here ya go Fox.....my response directly from my contact at MNRF.....

Since there is an open gun season (the controlled deer hunt) in your area of interest, you would not be able to use a .223 for hunting coyotes as the muzzle energy of this rifle is well over 400 foot-pounds. Basically, you are restricted to the use of a .22 rimfire rifle chambered in shorts, long, long-rifle or magnum.

Once the controlled deer season is over, you may start using your .223 for coyote hunting.

I really appreciate everyone's input on this! Currently waiting for the controlled hunt to end and will head back out for coyote then. Thanks and happy hunting!