smaller sized gun dog

i recently lost my little papillon after almost 13 years and was thinking about addding a new addition in the spring to help keep company with my vizsla. i have a hard task convincing the mother in law (who we live with:madman:) shes too upset to want to go through that again but at least the wife is ok with it. here is the crirteria i have handed to me...1. small in size 2. not too much of a shedder 3. a closer working gun dog as most days i walk in fields close to the house and don't need a big ranging dog to get on the streets. so far im thinking brittany as the obvious choice but have been curious about field bred cockers after seeing some work on tv. i prefer pointers but am open minded to all breeds. 30lbs range is a good and exludes most other breeds but maybe im missing certain lines that are smaller. any other breeds out there running smaller that i might be missing?

My male Brittany is 22" at the withers, weighs 48 pounds and is not anywhere near what I would call a close working dog. Would probably make your mother in laws head explode. Hopefully the cocker owners chime in here.

haha, i grew up with britts and gsp's, my sister currently has a brit thats about the same size as yours but i know ive seen smaller ones out there. oh well, i got lots of time to do homework and am in no immediate rush. my current vizsla is 52lbs and a fantastic dog, just looking smaller to keep the ladies of the house a little happier with 2 dogs again.

For a pointing dog one of the various continental spaniel breeds (other than Brittany) might suit but they aren't common. Most will run closer to 40 pounds, too.

Cumberland?

my old britt growing up was 42-45lb male, surely some females can be smaller, the breed standard says between 30-40lbs but i know you cant always be sure how big a pup can get. clumber seem even bigger though not sure, but i prefer the looks and work of a britt. like i said those field bred cockers have def peaked my curiousity as well but ive never worked with a flushing dog before.

BEAGLE!!
You've already got a bird dog, add to the hunting with a different type of dog.

Brittanys were originally touted as the smallest pointers. Dad's first Torbec Little Tea back in '69 was little bigger than a cat. Its almost a shame now some lines are bigger than labs. As far as range they are a close working dog however they are quick and do require a lot of control to keep them reigned in.

Haven't seen a close working Brittany yet. They will close in in timbered cover but if it opens up look out. If you stick with a female 30 lbs is quite possible.

i remember a few years ago seeing a lady with a small munsterlander and at 3 years she said it was 35-40lbs, but i think she also said that was rare for the breed as they usually push near 50lbs. terrym how far ranging is far? i was always under the impression most britt lines are close to moderate workers except for field trial lines. like i said i still need to do more homework.

"I prefer pointers ..." quote OP

Don't forget runts. Often a litter has a runt . One of my setters is a runt, ( 30 pounds), and is a terrific bird dog.


Mom and daughter

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9b1d17ac.jpg

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Originally Posted by terrym

Haven't seen a close working Brittany yet. They will close in in timbered cover but if it opens up look out. If you stick with a female 30 lbs is quite possible.

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Question if they work close in timber why would it matter in the open? If they are running large they aren't being handled well.

For a small munsterlander you need to consult with vom Dufenshmirtz here.

sharon, 35lbs for a setter? that would be awesome. how are setters with shedding and grooming?-yes im lazy

For a setter you really would be looking at Lwelyn (think I spelt that right) lines. Most hunting dogs will shed a lot other wise their coat will be to thin to give them much protection.

They shed some - not as bad as a white terrier.:) Grooming is simple .. cut toe nails , trim fur off the bottom of the feet in winter to minimize ice balls collecting ... that's about all I do. Spencer at Creek Haven Kennels has bred from my bithc on down the line and may have some runts or smaller pups in the future. It's always a possibility.

Runt does not equal less desire / go. No body wanted to buy my runt from the litter so I kept her. She was derby dog of the year in ON ( AF) at 1/1/2 years . :)

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

For a small munsterlander you need to consult with vom Dufenshmirtz here.

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Oh my ;)

female SMs run 40-45 lbs, most shed quite a bit twice a year, but so does Brittany. If you want to know more about SM - come over, looks like we're neighbours. Any hunting dog can run across a street chasing squirrels.

"Haven't seen a close working Brittany yet. They will close in in timbered cover but if it opens up look out. If you stick with a female 30 lbs is quite possible. " quote Terry
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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Question if they work close in timber why would it matter in the open? If they are running large they aren't being handled well.

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Hmmm Not getting into that as it would hijack the OP's post. :)

i may have to take you up on that offer as i would like to see SMs in person more than a few minutes.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Question if they work close in timber why would it matter in the open? If they are running large they aren't being handled well.

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Most pointing breeds are large running dogs. Mine will work 200 -300 yds out if the cover allows it. He will also hold point for however long it takes me to close in. He also closes right in when grouse and woodcock hunting as well bred dogs do. Letting a pointing breed work at those long ranges when needed is in fact handling them well, its what they are bred to do. The point im making is the OP specifically mentioned he is looking for a dog to stick close while walking him. I wouldnt recommend a Brittany for that. At least not one with hunting breeding.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

Question if they work close in timber why would it matter in the open? If they are running large they aren't being handled well.

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I have to disagree with that.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

For a setter you really would be looking at Lwelyn (think I spelt that right) lines. Most hunting dogs will shed a lot other wise their coat will be to thin to give them much protection.

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I would avoid Llewelin setters they make great pets but not so great hunting dogs. I know a few breeders and have seen more than my share of Llewelin's and I would not want one for hunting.

You can find regular English setters in the 35-45 pound range fairly easily, my wife's setter is 38 lbs and an excellent grouse dog. My father has a Brittany from Ruffwood that is under 40 lbs and a very nice dog.

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Originally Posted by gboa

. a closer working gun dog as most days i walk in fields close to the house and don't need a big ranging dog to get on the streets. ?

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As I read it he is not looking for a sidewalk dog. Historically English Pointers and Setters are the big ranging dogs often hunted by horse back. The Brittany was bread for the walking hunter. Brittany is at home either in big fields or close quarters its up to the handler to work the dog and set the range.

jakezilla thats what i thought about some britts being under 40lbs, didnt think setters could be that small. now i have more hope and need to look at closer working lines. i know pointing dogs should range but i prefer closer to moderate working dogs. havent been hunting in a few years since i had my boys but the last time i went out with a friends gsp he loved the way my vizsla kept in contact with me and ranged while i loved his gsp's work rate. i guess its a comfort thing

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

I would avoid Llewelin setters they make great pets but not so great hunting dogs. I know a few breeders and have seen more than my share of Llewelin's and I would not want one for hunting.

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He has his Vizsla for hunting. He is looking for a small dog that will work close to the handler. Llewelin's tend to be smaller than other setters and in this case hunting standards may not be that important. Remember He is asking for advice for his needs not yours.

i must admit my vizsla is older now-will be 11 in april 2015, and hunting is not always my main priority. i am always out running my dogs in the local fields and other than my mother in laws papillon i have grown up with gundogs. i do like a busy close working dog the best for my needs-i guess i just feel more comfortable that way. most late fall and winter nights by the time i get home its dark out and i have a decent size field at the end of my street that i can handle a close working dog comfortably and safely. but i do appreciate and listen to all the opinions expressed as its been awhile since ive looked for a puppy and im sure there are much more knowledgeable people here in this forum.

You really should take up Vom's offer to get to know his SM. It sounds like you would like how his dogs handle.

your right, i will. always thought SM looked cool, kinda like a setter with gsp markings. pm sent

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

He has his Vizsla for hunting. He is looking for a small dog that will work close to the handler. Llewelin's tend to be smaller than other setters and in this case hunting standards may not be that important. Remember He is asking for advice for his needs not yours.

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I am talking about anyone's hunting needs, and they are not smaller than other setters, unless you are using Ryman's as your size standards.

My female Britt is 35 lbs. I like to keep her within a couple hundred yards. Every late August, I get her clipped short to make burr removal easier. I wouldn't trade her for the world. She's the most affectionate dog we've ever had, smart, eager to please and easy to train (though still so very much a spaniel...lol).

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Originally Posted by gboa

i recently lost my little papillon after almost 13 years and was thinking about addding a new addition in the spring to help keep company with my vizsla. i have a hard task convincing the mother in law (who we live with:madman:) shes too upset to want to go through that again but at least the wife is ok with it. here is the crirteria i have handed to me...1. small in size 2. not too much of a shedder 3. a closer working gun dog as most days i walk in fields close to the house and don't need a big ranging dog to get on the streets. so far im thinking brittany as the obvious choice but have been curious about field bred cockers after seeing some work on tv. i prefer pointers but am open minded to all breeds. 30lbs range is a good and exludes most other breeds but maybe im missing certain lines that are smaller. any other breeds out there running smaller that i might be missing?

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My field bred Springer is 38 lbs of muscle and a close working dog. Sheds a couple times of year.

thanks again for all the comments, didnt know setters or springers could be at or under 40lbs, all the ones ive seen pushed 50lbs and maybe more. ive seen smaller britts and know theyre out there but atleast i have more options. also good thing i remembered the small munsterlander as well, also a strong candidate.

I would say a lot of the springers I see are around 40 lbs ... this based on my own dog who is 38 - 40 lbs. But with a springer you have the same question you had with a cocker: is a flushing dog right for me?

I have a cocker. He's 40 lbs so is the perfect size for what you are looking for. However he sheds as much as 3 dogs and you do have to groom when hunting like you would with a Springer or setter. If you want a pointer I really think you should look at a Brittany

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Originally Posted by Cass

I have a cocker. He's 40 lbs

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40 lb cocker? stop feeding the dog ;)

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Originally Posted by vom Dufenshmirtz

40 lb cocker? stop feeding the dog ;)

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LOL he's a scrawny little shyte

Add another Vizsla, get a Wirehair

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Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness

Add another Vizsla, get a Wirehair

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would love another Vizsla but it might be pushing the smaller dog request, plus the wirehair v's are hard to come
by and even bigger.

26 pound brit female, 14+ years old and still gets excited when the hunting gear comes out. Still hunting but I limit her time in the field. If I didn't she wouldn't quit. Takes training but they do hunt close. Definately a very high energy dog for the first 10 years anyway:-). She is a Ruffwood girl.

26lbs? wow, she must be a little rocket. glad to hear shes still going strong at 14

Wow that's small. Most of the english cockers I've seen up here are around that size. I think i lucked out, mines closer to a Springer in size

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Originally Posted by terrym

The point im making is the OP specifically mentioned he is looking for a dog to stick close while walking him. .

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Wirehaired pointing griffon. They stay close, too close for some. Not suited to hunting the open fields out west but very well suited for grouse and woodcock cover in eastern NA.

Just read the rest of the post, Griffon's are out. My small female is 50lbs easy.

Yes I agree with jobbers I have the same dog and she is 5 months old and already 30 pounds

Unfortunately I think the size of dog criteria is eliminating many excellent breeds.

I wonder if your wife will actually weigh the dog lol

There are many actual alternatives if you get a female dog they tend to be on the smaller side and that opens things up quite a bit 2 the Brittany, Llewellin setter and even a small wire haired pointing griffon.

It does sound like the Brit would be a good choice they look lighter lol

Get rid of the scale

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Originally Posted by terrym

Unfortunately I think the size of dog criteria is eliminating many excellent breeds.

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True, but it might also bring others of smaller size under consideration for the long haul.

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Originally Posted by wayner

26 pound brit female, 14+ years old and still gets excited when the hunting gear comes out.

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Originally Posted by gboa

26lbs? wow, she must be a little rocket. glad to hear shes still going strong at 14

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Here's 25 lbs and soon to turn 14 years old on her game last week -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps17bc8d0f.jpg

Cass, consider this PSA a gentle prod to post up your and Jake's recent waterfowl safari photos - do it.

MG

Lol look for the post "late season divers"

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Originally Posted by crackerd

True, but it might also bring others of smaller size under consideration for the long haul.





Here's 25 lbs and soon to turn 14 years old on her game last week -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps17bc8d0f.jpg

Cass, consider this PSA a gentle prod to post up your and Jake's recent waterfowl safari photos - do it.

MG

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Great pic. I love the look on that dog's eyes. :)

i agree about the size thing but its a restriction the ladies of the house want not me, thats if i can persuade them. so far i think the top 2 contenders are brittanny and small munsterlander. aside from the slight shedding they fit size wise the best.

that boykin-im guessing? is a good looking dog. great pic

Yep she's a boykin. crackerd also has a sussex spaniel which is quite a regal looking old gal as well (and also enjoys a goose in the chops)

Thunderbelly suggested a beagle. They are great pets and hunters but mine is a constant shedder. Vacuuming is required every 2nd day. My male small munsterlander is 55 lbs. He is mostly a non-shedder, he only sheds his few white hairs twice a year which isn't bad. He also requires the chance to run and hunt every day. The only small dog that I have owned that was a great house pet and didn't shed was a miniature schnauzer. The schnauzer did chase rabbits and kept the mole, mouse and chipmunk population in the yard down.

after hearing opinions on this forum and doing a bit more research i feel i can find a smaller pointing dog that
can fit what im looking for. im thinking a female britt or munsterlander are strong contenders for what im looking for
minus some shedding which wont be a huge deal breaker. the french britt is even smaller and closer working plus as sharon and others have said there are also smaller setters, pointers and maybe vizslas that are out there. there are a few obstacles to overcome but the hardest part in all this is getting the green light from the ladies and making sure everyone is happy and on board. right now though the britt and sm are prob my best options and im more than fine with that

Are European gun dogs dogs, smaller than North American dogs? I know there are many examples of other breeds being bred larger than the original intention. I am just wondering if searching the breeds country of origin would provide smaller dogs?

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

Are European gun dogs dogs, smaller than North American dogs? I know there are many examples of other breeds being bred larger than the original intention. I am just wondering if searching the breeds country of origin would provide smaller dogs?

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Your probably right. Just like cars North American models are bigger.

Hunting dogs are not necessarily smaller in Europe. You would only see a significant difference after many generation of breeding; e.g. UK lab vs. Canadian lab; therefore one cannot generalize and need to look at each breed individually.

Some guy on here was looking into Braque Francais (Pyrenees type). You'll face the issue of a very small number of breeders, but if the size matters so much to you, you'll get a "GSP in Brittany size".

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Originally Posted by thunderbelly

Are European gun dogs dogs, smaller than North American dogs? I know there are many examples of other breeds being bred larger than the original intention. I am just wondering if searching the breeds country of origin would provide smaller dogs?

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In the sense of a board generalization I would say you are correct. Breeds bred in the country where they originated in tend to have a lesser tolerance for breedings that are outside of the breed standards, that and the parent breeding clubs tend to be much more involved and garner more influence with local breeders than here in NA.

In my breed of choice, Griffons, those individuals bred south of our border tend to be transitioning into a physical form that resembles more of a German Wirehair or Pudelpointer as opposed to European or even Quebec based breedings of Griffons. The WPG should be one of the shortest versatile breeds (<60 cm in males and should be longer than tall) with a deep broad chest and powerful form, not a tall slender dog breed to cover larger areas in shorter time periods.

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Originally Posted by gboa

i recently lost my little papillon after almost 13 years and was thinking about addding a new addition in the spring to help keep company with my vizsla. i have a hard task convincing the mother in law (who we live with:madman:) shes too upset to want to go through that again but at least the wife is ok with it. here is the crirteria i have handed to me...1. small in size 2. not too much of a shedder 3. a closer working gun dog as most days i walk in fields close to the house and don't need a big ranging dog to get on the streets. so far im thinking brittany as the obvious choice but have been curious about field bred cockers after seeing some work on tv. i prefer pointers but am open minded to all breeds. 30lbs range is a good and exludes most other breeds but maybe im missing certain lines that are smaller. any other breeds out there running smaller that i might be missing?

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Female Pudelpointer.....the ladies will be in love with her shortly...

Look into setters red setter would be my choice.

i really like the pudelpointers ive seen at pineridge, but they are bigger than what im looking for. easily 50-60lbs if not more.

Claymore Kennels has a litter of field bred cockers coming. They can run under 30lbs. I have English Springer Spaniels, my females are smaller, under 35lbs. Cockers and female ESS's will work close. They are both field bred so the hunting ability is a given.

If there's one thing I can comment on, it's ladies and hunting dogs. My wife and 3 daughters all love our britt. I've owned a springville springer, a cavalier king charles spaniel and now the britt. I will not get anything other than britts again. My wife says this britt is her favourite dog ever and I feel exactly the same. She hunts like a dream, was easy to train, beautiful and has the most loving temperment.

My wife and I fought like dogs about buying a dog.she never had one growing up and,wanted no part of it at all. Now she would sell her belongings to care for our Brittany and loves the dog like I never would have imagined. Brittanies crave human companionship.

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Originally Posted by terrym

My wife and I fought like dogs about buying a dog.she never had one growing up and,wanted no part of it at all. Now she would sell her belongings to care for our Brittany and loves the dog like I never would have imagined. Brittanies crave human companionship.

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All spaniels do, not just Britts. But then again so did my labs.

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Originally Posted by terrym

My wife and I fought like dogs about buying a dog.she never had one growing up and,wanted no part of it at all. Now she would sell her belongings to care for our Brittany and loves the dog like I never would have imagined. Brittanies crave human companionship.

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Same story here :) but now he says, "When are we going out with the dogs?"

I can say the same thing about my 2 setters - easy to train , mild mannered, easy in the house etc. One is 14 and I'm trying to prepare myself, but that death is really going to hurt.

I think a "good" dog is more about the dog than the breed usually.

Good breeding bloodlines period.

ive been pushing the second dog request but i seemed to hit a bit of a roadblock with the laddies right now. still hoping
for a spring pup but may have to push it back some. it almost seems like just bringing a pup home on the spur of the
moment might be better but thats hard to do-hard to get a pup from a good breeder last minute and hard in case they
really get mad about it. i would much rather we all agree and prepare in advance but time will only tell.
"marriage...theyre man made prisons jerry"-cosmo kramer

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Originally Posted by gboa

ive been pushing the second dog request but i seemed to hit a bit of a roadblock with the laddies right now. still hoping
for a spring pup but may have to push it back some. it almost seems like just bringing a pup home on the spur of the
moment might be better but thats hard to do-hard to get a pup from a good breeder last minute and hard in case they
really get mad about it. i would much rather we all agree and prepare in advance but time will only tell.
"marriage...theyre man made prisons jerry"-cosmo kramer

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I did that once. Partner gets over it. :)

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Originally Posted by Sharon

I did that once. Partner gets over it. :)

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so if i hear you correctly and i think i do, you're saying do it! its official...you are now responsible
for my actions...lol

Oh nooooo. :)

That's how I've done it. Surprise! Puppy is here. Did all my research on the sly, picked up the dog while the ex was gone shopping.