smokeless powder in a muzzle-loader

http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2014/...oters-fingers/

The man who fired the gun loaded the muzzleloader with smokeless powder which had been taken from 20 gauge shotgun shells,” Doane said over the phone. “He had run out of black powder and had actually cut open the shells and ended up pouring 75 grains of powder into that muzzleloader. Once again, smokeless powder is several times more powerful than black powder, so it would be like putting a 300-grain charge of blackpowder into a muzzleloader.”

Not sure how this fits into a lapse in judgment scenario. I have a different word to describe it.

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Originally Posted by oaknut

Not sure how this fits into a lapse in judgment scenario. I have a different word to describe it.

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Holy smokes. Yeah I do too Oaknut.

Everyone who has certain qualifications to own a firearm is allowed to own and use a muzzle loader. Because it is not required to have a good understanding of internal ballistics involving powder burn rates and pressures manufacturers of muzzle loaders provide you the necessary info for safely operating your type of muzzle loader.
Yet there are those that feel they know enough to alter the guide lines and this is what they end up with. Worse yet there are individuals out there that claim you can use smokeless powder in a BP muzzle loader that gives a false sense of security to other user’s to consider trying this.

If you have to explore stupidity hopefully you’ll have enough sense not to have someone beside you that could also be seriously hurt. You may also need that individual to call for help to salvage what is left of you after that pipe bomb goes off.

Ed

I've learned a couple things along my way. doesn't flow uphill and you can't teach common sense!

Conversely, that kind of stupidity is why the Savage ML10 was pulled from the market.....too many idiots used their BP loads in the SML, only they swapped in smokeless powder. A 100 gr of Accurate Arms 5744 is NOT the same as 100 gr of T7...but you'll get the same kind of 'after' photo though :)

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Conversely, that kind of stupidity is why the Savage ML10 was pulled from the market.....too many idiots used their BP loads in the SML, only they swapped in smokeless powder. A 100 gr of Accurate Arms 5744 is NOT the same as 100 gr of T7...but you'll get the same kind of 'after' photo though :)

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No no that's not why Savage pulled it. They pulled it because producing 6000 mz's doesn't make sense when you can produce 60,000 rifles using the same real estate in the plant.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

No no that's not why Savage pulled it. They pulled it because producing 6000 mz's doesn't make sense when you can produce 60,000 rifles using the same real estate in the plant.

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OK..if that's the story your happy with .LOL..

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

No no that's not why Savage pulled it. They pulled it because producing 6000 mz's doesn't make sense when you can produce 60,000 rifles using the same real estate in the plant.

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You 're right on, Savage cannot produce or keep up with the production of their regular firearms, and the "smokeless ML " was tying up their production and cutting into profits, after all the dollar is what counts in business.

Yes that is the reason from Savage anyway. The company is flourishing. They re tooled the line for bigger profits.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

You 're right on, Savage cannot produce or keep up with the production of their regular firearms, and the "smokeless ML " was tying up their production and cutting into profits, after all the dollar is what counts in business.

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Savage was faced with a raft of problems with the ML10. I’m sure if you spent time on google you would get a more complete picture.

From memory;

They were battling the BATF because the ML was going to classified as a firearm instead of a ML ;
They were battling poor sales of the ML10-11 (less than 50% of projected sales);
They (Savage and the Ball’s) were facing lawsuits both against them and in defence of allegations from Toby Bridge’s;
There were mounting lawsuits being filed with claims the gun was exploding;

To name a few…

I was always left with the feeling after all the stuff printed on various forums many years ago, that in the end, having to deal with the courts over legal matters was something that Savage just didn’t have the stomach for. I even suspect the Ball’s themselves may have pulled the plug (parden the pun). That in combination of poor sales were the demise of the ML10.

So in a round about way, your right, the ML10 was cutting into the profits, it was going to cost Savage pile of money, so they dropped it from production.

edit add: In the US you can my an ML over the counter at WalMart without an FBI background check...which is required if it's classified as a firearm...that makes a huge difference in sales).

Oh I researched them fully. Toby was dropped by savage and he apparently tried some shenanigans afterward. His letter to savage is posted on line.

I don't believe any of the lawsuits were proven in court. User error every darn time.

I have purchased five in past several years. Last two runs were special runs. Every one I passed on still resides with close friends.

I will go one further and say ratio wise there are a hell of a pile more BP guns that have blown up over the years.

You double load your mz your going to be missing fingers plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

No no that's not why Savage pulled it. They pulled it because producing 6000 mz's doesn't make sense when you can produce 60,000 rifles using the same real estate in the plant.

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Originally Posted by jaycee

You 're right on, Savage cannot produce or keep up with the production of their regular firearms, and the "smokeless ML " was tying up their production and cutting into profits, after all the dollar is what counts in business.

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Yep, same thing I've read, and been told by the local gun shops. Many models are still backordered, and they made a commitment to supply guns for the new .17 cal round developed by Winchester. The 10ML-II apparently accounted for less than 1% of their sales. It wasn't sound business to tie up resources to produce it.

I see Randy Wakeman summarized the decline of the ML10 production in an article...like he says;

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Caught up in a perplexing array of BATF decisions, knee-jerk DNR regs, and needless controversies, our failure to grasp that smokeless powder has always be a black powder substitute, our peculiar fascination with pellets, and perhaps a few cheap shots from jealous competitors, the Savage 10ML series never lived up to a fraction of its sales potential.

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and he doesn't even touch on any of the lawsuit issues that surrounded the ML10

from: http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ceases_10ML.htm

From Randy Wakeman's site.

Testimony to Savage 10ML-II Quality & Strength

Sent: 12/4/2014 7:41:44 P.M. Central Standard Time
Subj: Savage ML II Quality

Mr. Wakeman, I would like to share an incident that happen to me today at the range. What could have been a deadly mistake just turned into embarrassment, hurt pride, a messed up rifle and a lighter wallet. I just thank God no one was injured.
I had taken my Savage 50CAL. ML II gun hunting with me last week. It was loaded with Accurate 5744 powder, 3.4 dipper, 300 gr. Hornady bullet with MMP black sabot. I went to the range today to sight in a few guns and to shoot my muzzleloader. I accidentally double loaded the gun, powder and bullet and when fired the gun kick the S#*t out of me. Not knowing what and why this happened I tried several more shots only to find a gun that would not sight in. The bullet would almost drop down the barrel the last few inches.
I'm writing this to you for two reasons. First please keep reminding your readers to double check, triple check their muzzleloaders for instance such as this. Safety, Safety, Safety. Secondly I feel that with the quality of the Savage barrel that was the only thing keeping me from serious injury or death. Any other gun I feel would have blown up with unthinkable results.
Feel free to use this example for your readers. Just keep my name out of it. I've had enough embarrasment and hurt pride to last a for a long time.

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and he doesn't even touch on any of the lawsuit issues that surrounded the ML10

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Now how many of these lawsuits have proven it was "operator stupidity or error " ???

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Now how many of these lawsuits have proven it was "operator stupidity or error " ???

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That's the problem...there isn't a Firearm manufacture in North America that is going to court in a "his word against mine" scenario...they have to settle and it gets expensive.

Mike the Savage is proofed to 109,000 psi. You can't blow this thing up unless you do something really, really stupid.

I can blow up your BP gun easier. Not even a close contest.

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Originally Posted by delmer

Yep, same thing I've read, and been told by the local gun shops. Many models are still backordered, and they made a commitment to supply guns for the new .17 cal round developed by Winchester. The 10ML-II apparently accounted for less than 1% of their sales. It wasn't sound business to tie up resources to produce it.

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I toured Savage in Lakefield last year and was told the previous year they did about 65,000 rifles. Current year they were headed for 250,000 and were expanding this year. 95% were being sent to the US. Not sure how they did this calendar year but probably well.

Just like you said, it wasn't sound business.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Mike the Savage is proofed to 109,000 psi. You can't blow this thing up unless you do something really, really stupid.

I can blow up your BP gun easier. Not even a close contest.

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That's the 2nd post that insinuates that I have written something against the ML10...I never have, I have nothing against it, it was designed by Henry Ball...it's, if anything, over engineered to be the safest ML ever built.

I was only pointing out, as it was the topic of the OP thread, that it was put in the hands of guys who couldn't understand the difference in smokeless and BP and there were similar 'explosions' that were being blamed on the gun and was becoming a legal liability to Savage to fight the mounting allegations.

Jack...as good as it is....it still happens..."



note; if your interested there appears to be some legal progress in one of the lawsuits....interesting it contains some info on other claims ( 10 others before the courts) that were mentioned in this trial;

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Similar incidents. The trial court did not abuse its discretion by excluding evidence of allegedly similar incidents involving other 10ML-II rifles, the appellate panel determined. In that regard, the Palatkas had identified two cases in which Savage Arms had been sued by individuals who allegedly sustained personal injuries when their 10ML-IIs exploded during use as well as eight other incidents in which 10ML-II barrels had failed that they had proffered for the purpose of proving that the rifle was defective, that Savage Arms knew that it was defective, and that the manufacturer had failed to warn users of the defect. The trial court excluded the evidence as inadmissible on the basis that: (1) the Palatkas failed to demonstrate that the other incidents were substantially similar to the facts of the instant case; (2) even if the other incidents were similar, the probative value of the evidence was substantially outweighed by a danger of unfair prejudice, confusion, or misleading the jury, etc.

None of the incidents cited by the Palatkas had been reduced to a judgment, nor had the incidents’ cause been determined, the appellate panel remarked. Furthermore, if the evidence at issue was admitted, mini-trials would have been necessary in order to determine causation. As such, the trial court appropriately reasoned that trying those incidents within the context of the case at bar would have delayed the trial, misled the jury, and directed them away from the dispositive issue in the Palatkas’ case, the appeals court observed, concluding that the trial court did not abuse its discretion by excluding the allegedly similar incidents.

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http://www.dailyreportingsuite.com/p...ntiffs_experts

Scarry stuff. When I load my Omega I pay very close attention to what I am doing. I have never heard of the Omega blowing up but I am sure it could happen. The savage smokeless gun is used by thousands so I am sure this is just a fluke...

There are those that should not be around fire arms of any type , regular cartridge rifles , black powder muzzle loaders or smokeless , also shot guns .
These people are in most cases , [an accident waiting for a place to happen] have seen this at the club many times over the years ie; hey look what happened to my shotgun [split barrel ] when I tried this powder, or hey I just put in a little more [how much more ?] powder and I blew up my muzzle loader, or this one , I didn't think a little bit of bull rush in the end of my shotgun barrel would cause it to blow up, they don't make them like they used to. ??????

Jaycee

I agree the 10ML-II is the strongest and safest muzzle loader a manufacturer has built.
But even its quality is not fool proof when certain individuals use them. I also agree there are individuals that should not be using firearms as I’ve witnessed at the range also.

I have seen pictures of numerous barrel ruptures with the 10M-II and one common factor has been a split running through the rear sight hole. Co-incidence I don’t think so. When mounting a scope the rear sight is usually removed and probably the hole left open for appearance sake. This IMO leaves a weak spot in the barrel. I have replaced my rear sight screw and front sight with one that fills the hole and sits flush with the barrel to bring the barrel integrity back to its original status.

The person that scares me the most is someone doing modifications for improvement or for doing one better than the next guy. They are so focused to pushing the limits one step further but never seem to consider the possible negative response from a modification. One good example of this is trigger adjustments. Not to say that having a lighter set trigger is a bad thing because I too prefer a lighter set trigger with almost all the play adjusted out of it. My 10ML-II is set at 3-lbs and proof tested to ensure a strong jarring will not set it off. If I go below 3-lbs, say 2.5-lbs a good jarring will set it off. Should I want less poundage then an aftermarket trigger designed for lighter poundage is required.

Simple rule here “know your limits and play within it”.



Ed

For muzzle loading, a person should pass a common sense test and an attention span test. I have seen at the range where someone talks to a guy loading, he stops and after a few minutes starts the process over, totally forgetting where he left off and double loading the powder and even the bullet. I have helped people unload these situations where they thought it might be easier to fire it out. I couldn't see them paying that price to earn a little common sense. I suggested that they look up some of the results on the net. I was thanked at our next meeting at the range.

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Originally Posted by DJB

For muzzle loading, a person should pass a common sense test and an attention span test.

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...LOL..like the one they should be giving people before they have kids :)

Yes it takes focus to remember all the steps in the load procedure, especially if your prone to getting distracted. I also shoot BP shotgun and it has a few more steps, so I lay out everything in advance and go from left to right...every time.

Good practice Mike.

It is same for me hand loading. Careful and no distractions, period!

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I agree the 10ML-II is the strongest and safest muzzle loader a manufacturer has built.
But even its quality is not fool proof when certain individuals use them.

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Especially the ones that know next to nothing and start experimenting with "duplex loads " to try and gain a few more yards in distance.

I had a kentucky rifle boom in my face. I had purchased it from a neighbor to help him financially and hung it over the mantle so it's be there when he wanted it back. Well never happened so I decided to hunt with it.

Checked it out, loaded it properly, fired it, and it blew the percussion nipple, etc out in my face......I shoot left handed.

Well....appears he had replaced a metric threaded nipple with a SAE.

I healed, got my sight back and welded, drilled, tapped and installed a SAE nipple.

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Originally Posted by skypilot

I had a kentucky rifle boom in my face. I had purchased it from a neighbor to help him financially and hung it over the mantle so it's be there when he wanted it back. Well never happened so I decided to hunt with it.

Checked it out, loaded it properly, fired it, and it blew the percussion nipple, etc out in my face......I shoot left handed.

Well....appears he had replaced a metric threaded nipple with a SAE.

I healed, got my sight back and welded, drilled, tapped and installed a SAE nipple.

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A perfect example of someone trying to do something that they were not capable of [no knowledge], not referring to you "skypilot."

Jaycee

Not sure how to interpret your last post about DUPLEX LOADS.
If someone is not familiar with duplex loads is one thing but some who are knowledgeable about Duplex loads then I disagree with your post.
Duplex loads can also generate lesser peak pressure than a single powder can generate with increase in velocity for flatter shooting and longer range.
Duplex loads can generate less ES velocities from shot to shot.

Have you ever wondered why with SML that we need to use such fast burning powders to launch heavy bullets that in a CF cartridge of far lesser size would rip a barrel apart?
It’s all about understanding the basics of powder burn rates and pressure responses for given conditions.

When SML first came out many preached gloom and doom using this method.
Then when refinement of loads came along again using duplex powders many preached gloom and doom simply because they didn’t understand it.
If a single powder load meets your needs then by all means stay there in a given comfort zone. If it doesn’t then there is the option of duplex and you need to have a good understanding of powder burn rates and pressure responses before going there. If you begin to poke blindly then look out.

For years I’ve shot single loads in my 10ML-II to keep things as simple as possible. Now I find myself moving into an area not covered by manufacturer’s recommendations and my only option to safely achieve my goal will be with a duplex load.


Ed

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Originally Posted by jaycee

A perfect example of someone trying to do something that they were not capable of [no knowledge], not referring to you "skypilot."

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I know you weren't Jaycee. You're correct, he never thought the thread might be other than SAE and didn't check. Swapped it out, never hunted/shot it again and had to sell due to a pregnant wife.

Seems it was a "FIE" from Italy or something. Everyone just has to be extremely careful, especially on a preowned or BP firearm. I thought I had done due diligence but was hurt anyway.

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Jaycee

Not sure how to interpret your last post about DUPLEX LOADS.
If someone is not familiar with duplex loads is one thing but some who are knowledgeable about Duplex loads then I disagree with your post.

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I thought I made it perfectly clear when I said " especially the ones that know next to nothing and start experimenting "

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Originally Posted by jaycee

I thought I made it perfectly clear when I said " especially the ones that know next to nothing and start experimenting "

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Fair enough and point taken.

Ed

I see that among ml11 owners there is a strongly held belief that they are the strongest and safest muzzleloaders. Is this based only upon the fact that they will digest smokeless powder or is there something that I am missing?

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Originally Posted by Bushbaby

I see that among ml11 owners there is a strongly held belief that they are the strongest and safest muzzleloaders. Is this based only upon the fact that they will digest smokeless powder or is there something that I am missing?

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The 10ML-II barrels are quenched and tempered like CF barrels to withstand high pressures. Other ML manufacturers do not use this strength or quality of steel for their barrels.


Ed

Thanks Ed. That explains the strength. But does that also make it safer? It would seem to me that a rifle that could handle an extra bit of powder without fear of blowing up might be a bit safer. I am not trying to trash your rifles, they are really nice looking guns and I have no doubt that eventually I might end up with one. I'm just trying to learn and some of the claims seem a bit frivolous.

Bush baby

I understand your apprehension and agree you should learn and look deeper before making any decisions. That is the smart thing to do before making any commitment.

Ed

He obviously missed Firearm Safety Course 101, never use smokeless powder in black powder gun. That looks like an inline modern made muzzle loader, he might have thought it had the strength to handle a smokeless charge. It might have, had he used the 40% rule of thumb when substituting a smokeless powder charge for a black powder charge. Instead it would appear he used the same number of grains call for when using black powder ( something like the powder found in three 20 gauge shot shells). If you don't know anything about powders, it easy to make such a mistake. My dad did the same using his dad's black powder measures to reload 3 drams of red dot smokeless powder into 12 gauge shot-shells. Oddly enough, a more modern single barrel shotgun, was able to take the charge. However when he touched off his father's older double barrel Belgium, the barrel were blown off the frame and struck the shed wall next to a two storey window. Father was very luck, he only ended up with about six bird shot in his thumb.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut