Great read for the allocation of Tourist Moose Tags.
http://ontora.ca/moose-tags-for-remo...st-outfitters/
Merry Christmas to all and hoping a great 2015 to everyone.
"E"
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Great read for the allocation of Tourist Moose Tags.
http://ontora.ca/moose-tags-for-remo...st-outfitters/
Merry Christmas to all and hoping a great 2015 to everyone.
"E"
This is an old article dated last May. There were several thread related to this that you should be able to access with the search engine.
Those outfitters were there for decades before the roads were built!! The millions of dollars spent on their properties should give them a voice.
They had tags allocated to them YEARS BEFORE access was built!!!!
Something does need to be done about all the easterners tripping all over each other just North of here though while moose hunting. It was ridiculous!!!! I heard many were quite rude to each other.
I was wondering if you were an outfitter or not Chris. You understand their point very well, but you don't seem to understand that land is owned by the tax payers, not just the outfitters.
http://www.pineacresbearcamp.ca/contact.html
Chris, I only want fairness in the process, not a one sided, catering to the big money of americans and disregarding us residents is truly unfair. I understand the value of business and a niche which has been created by the outfitters. My problem with the whole thing is that over the years, this government has truly mismanged all portfolios and the expense of the tax payers. Americans are not tax payers so they are imuned to this nonsense. With more access and allotments for the outfitters, we as humble tax payers bear the brunt of this nonsense. there has to come a point in time when enough is enough. And I'm thinking this time has come.
"E"
I understand both sides. As I am a year round resident and an outfitter.
2014 resident tags for zone5 down 88%. Non resident tags no change. 2015 non resident tags down only9% in zone 5. 2015 residents tags?????. We as residents get it in the from the mnr again.
Do you as an outfitter have any moose tags or are you still only into bear hunting?Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
In 55B, when they cut the bull tags to 0, Turner's Camp at Round Lake, an outfitter, still had bull tags.
One thing I think OFAH needs to demand from the MNR is transparency - the number of outfitters tags being allocated in each WMU should be published in the regs with other tag allocations.
Also don't forget the number of moose that the "first nations " take , if there was only some way of getting them to report their kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Just bear & deer
We have been hunting wmu 03 for 20 years but skipped last year because of the tags reduction, where were the easterners tripping over each other? in wmu 05 or wmu 03 ? Heard there was lots of hunters the first week in 03Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
Isaw very few hunters in zone 5 but there were more in zones 4 and 3 than other years. Zone 16a was over loaded with hunters and very few moose.
The man in charge for the MNR is Greg Lucking. His number is 705-755-1573 and his email is greg [email protected].
The 2 Aboriginal groups in Mattawa Ontario were awarded 75 and 30 tags total for the area 48 hunt and Algonquin Park. That does not leave many tags for the remaining population of "Non-Aboriginal" Native people.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Use to hunt Madawaska with my dad and grandfather, took 15 moose outta there in 10 years then tags went for a crap, They blamed the first nations for the lack of tags,Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Grandfather watch a first nation shoot at a cow off the road, then ask if he was going to go look for blood and his reply was it ran to far off the road to bother, He found the cow dead 100 yards in and the mnr didn't do a thing about it,
I can see both sides, but the government shouldn't forget that the non-residents don't get to vote.
If you or I did this , we would be hung out to dry and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt86
I think you're mistaken putting the blame on to the gov't. Any government elected at any time only appoints a minister to "head" the MNR for the interim. These ministers are often not there long enough to make any change at all. Doesn't matter if it's liberal, conservative, NDP... The guys that make the policies are the long term MNR personnel and most of these guys/gals are lifers. Most will retire to a nice gov't pension after steering the MNR ship for years. Where and how they steer the ship is always a mystery to the common man. I don't think anyone even knows who they are! Sweet job if you ask me. Make policies behind closed doors and never any repercussions when you screw up - kinda like a weatherman!Quote:
Originally Posted by x_xeon_x
For us, the common man, the old saying " you can't beat city hall" really rings true. All us poor saps b#tch and complain on blogs like this . We toss around ideas and dreams BUT it is all for not.
BIG BROTHER (upper MNR brass) make the decisions and when they make the wrong decisions (often) the crap never seems to stick on them. All of us think it's the gov't of the time so we whine and cry to them. It's no wonder our whining and crying fall on deaf ears! All of it is directed in the wrong direction.
I always looked forward to retirement as the golden years and figured I would hunt and fish myself into heaven. But seeing where we are and where we were sure is discouraging.
Like I said in an earlier post the only thing in abundance is coyotes/ wolves and bears. WTF!
Problem is the MNRF portfolio isn't a highly/importantly held portfolio. It never gets a strong Minister who can affect change. Thus is why even with long term governments in power and in majority don't make any changes. We have seem the same from 3 different parties in control in this province.Quote:
Originally Posted by SK33T3R
MNRF brass should suggest to a govt committee any changes. They should make decisions on total tag allotment (as 1 example) and game limits etc based on scientific models. But policies on Who gets tags and how should be decided by the Minister with a committee.
JMHO
Don't get mad at me guys but - all I hear is a lot of hollering and complaining but no action - do things like we do down here when the game commission isn't doing things right - we do more than just about it - a lot of hunters don't like the way deer are being managed so an organization took the commission to court - then the hunters started getting their representatives into the act which the commission didn't like - this got the commission's ears - join organizations that put some power behind your ing and pressure your politicians to do what you want - just look at the NRA and what it can do when enough people get involved -
Yes Joe you're rightQuote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
We live in a country of sheep! ... lotsa of baaaaaing .. then we get fleeced!
The only way I can ever see our game population ever being properly managed is to have a governing board consisting of equal MNR policymakers and and equal representation of hunters. (and another independent board for fishing) Policy and changes would be brought up, discussed and voted upon. The vote will carry.
It's ironic that hunters and fishermen are the only ones with the cash influx and we really have no say whatsoever!
DID I forget to say WTF!
Outfitter tags are determined a full year in advance. When the MNR determined the 2014 resident allocation, they also determined the 2015 outfitter allocation. This gives them time to market their hunts. Hard to market a hunt when you don't know how many tags you'll get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Tag allocation for outfitters is going to be down by 15% in 2016. Announced at our outfitters meeting.
All I know is that moose hunting is fast becoming a sport for the rich who can afford the escalating outfitter rates for moose tags. The less tags there are the more demand for the outfitter tags and the higher the price will go.
If you have already not figured it out boys, its not about protecting the moose herd, it all about money - it always was.
With the exchange rates being so high the only ones that are going to be able to afford the "packages" are the Non-Residents.
Sad that foreigners are going to be able to hunt our moose and us Canadian taxpayers will not.
Turn them in!!! The outfitters cannot sell or put a monetary value on the tags. They can be charged and if convicted get their tags suspended!!
It's simply not as cut-and-dried as that,redd. Outfitters have charged one rate for accomodations with no tag and another higher rate for accomodations and guiding fees with tag(s) ever since the tag system was implemented. There's always been a "fine line" they've been allowed to walk. As for turning Moose hunting into a "rich man's" sport,I disagree. If outfitters keep jacking their rates up,eventually,they'll simply price themselves out of the market,leaving only a very few "well-healed-full service "outfitters left to service the entire industry. Besides,why would resident hunters pay exorbitantly high fees when they can hunt wherever there's tags available for the price of gas and a week's holidays?Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
When they get their allotted tags for free , they can afford to lower their prices . I personally was at an outfitters camp a few years ago when the outfitter came right to our cabin and asked if we would be interested in another tag for $ 1000. There was only 9 days left in the season and I guess he wanted to get his money out of it rather than be stuck with it . We told him no and that it was illegal , he just laughed and said he would find someone that would buy it .
I believe that if they do not use the assigned tags, they may/do not get them again the following year, so they become desperate to sell it or assign it to someone. I know of one instance where an outfitter could not sell one tag and gifted it to a long time customer group that came back year after year so it could be used for this reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxx
Also it's clear tags cannot be sold on their own and must be part of a hunt package which includes staying at the outfitter lodging. Within that scenario, I believe the hunt package cost can be adjusted for the inclusion of tags. So a cabin for a week could be $1500 and with a tag it could be $3000, so guess how much the tag costs.
Tag costs $1500 . Turn them in....it's illegal.Quote:
So a cabin for a week could be $1500 and with a tag it could be $3000, so guess how much the tag costs.
I just checked out what you guys are talking about. I found a outfit here charging $4600.00 per person. Includes guide, tent camp, flyin, B&M. Includes transport of moose. THEN it says $500.00 for an extra BULL tag. Over and above the license they already bought at about $500.00.
Here is the first I heard of them doing this and now I see your guys point!!
Can't see it being illegal if they are advertising it. Must be a loophole.
the whole system is totally screwed up!
No loophole. Nobody checking. Copy the add and send it in to the tips line or your local MNRF enforcement office.
Years back we stayed at a lodge in Armstrong for a moose hunt and since there were 8 of us we drew a bull tag in the draw and the lodge owner asked us if we would like a cow tag as well. So for $900 bucks we bought the tag so we would be good for any adult moose we would encounter. I never thought much about it until reading this thread that it may have been illegal for them to sell us the tag ? And could we have been in violation for actually buying the tag ?
Technically,yes because you were a party to the offense. Was the "tag" turned back to him at the end of your stay or did your party keep it to use,again,later? If you turned the tag back to him,he would sell it to someone else and pocket another $900 and on and on until the tag was filled or the season ended. Neat trick if you can get away with it. If your party retained the Cow tag,used it and got caught...o-h-h-h-h boy! You would have financed the next provincial election all by yourself. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
One way to stop it is to ask the OMNR. If it is deemed illegal, then ask them to check it out. Only way to stop it if it's illegal and will make you guys feel better!!
Wow, When he asked us about the cow tag he called it an outfitters tag or something like that and said that the MNR gives them too outfitters to be used by clients. We thought it was normal and bought the tag , we did not fill the tag and it went home with us and it was only good in that wmu for a cow. It was more than 10 years ago so the statute of limitations is in effect. Right? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Yeah,I wouldn't be concerned about it,now. Keep it in mind if it ever happens again,though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
An outfitter can be charged with counciling his client wrong. Don't think a client would be charged.
So how do outfitters get these co called client tags?
Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Clients know what they're doing. It would never wash in court.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
You are right trimmer but the outcome of the investigation does allow the CO to decide whether he charges the client or not. An outfitter is considered an agent. For instance, a hunter must notch and tag his bear but an outfitter can do it for him. If the tag is notched wrong both will be charged.
A client gets a form 33 allowing the hunter to bear hunt in the outfitters assigned lease. The hunter has no idea where the bma boundries are. If a hunter is set up outside the bma and gets a bear the bma holder will get charged, the hunter after the investigation might be charged maybe not. But looses the bear to the crown.
CO knows whether the client is telling the truth or not. At CO's and procecutors discretion. Happens with a few outfitters from time to time.
Clients most definitely do get charged , just look at what happened to Thomas Pigeon, He argued that he had no idea that the outfitter was not doing things legally when he hunted Musk Oxen.
The outcome of the court case , he lost everything .
I know of an instance where an outfitter way east of here that set a custumer up outside his bma. After going in front of the judge. Client lost the bear but was not fined for being out of his outfitters BMA. Outfitter lost his BMa.
So why then do outfitters get tags from the mnr? for non residents only?
I don't understand your question. I think residents can use an outfitters adult seals.
Earlier I explained we bought a cow tag from an outfitter in Armstrong for 900$ and was told that was illegal and we And the outfitter could be in big do do.
I read somewhere that it is illegal to sell a hunting license for more than what the mnr sells the license for.
If it's illegal turn them in!! It's as simple as that.
Trimmer again is right, "Ignorance is no excuse". But its up to the judge in the final outcome. I've seen many instances where outfitter rightfully pays and the client does not.
It was more than 10 years ago and we had no idea we may have fouled up the rules as it seemed ok , not like Psssss guys , u wanna buy a cow tag? Ok don't tell anyone and if u get caught I don't know you. .. LOL
You guys know its happening, complain over and over, but do not ask the omnr to look into it?? It's as simple as picking up the phone and calling your district. They have to investigate if you phone in a complaint.
OMNRF doesn't "sell" tags to outfitters. They're issued the tags depending on the number of registered client groups that are staying at the outfitters lodge/resort. The outfitters,themselves,"adjust" their lodging prices upward (a way upward) when clients require a tag to hunt. It doesn't matter whether the clients are resident or non-resident and that's how they "hide" the tag sales,by burying it in the overall price,so,technically,the tag wasn't "sold". I absolutely agree that it's BS,but,OMNRF has let them get away with it for decades.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
They should reword their package by saying the " Package includes a bull or cow seal" along with the other amenities that are included. There is absolutely no other way to advertise it.
Trimmer, how do you propose the way they should word it. I cant think of another way???
They are selling the adult seal, not the moose license, that's how they get away with it.
If this advertiser is a friend and it appears he's made an error,you should definitely give him a "heads up". It could save him a whole world of grief down the road. Anyone in business should always have a lawyer on speed dial when iot comes to committing anything to print because when it comes to legalities,one can never unring a bell.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris lavoie
I'm interested in the answer to this question. I'll phone the omnr tomorrow and see if I can get an answer.
Trimmer you are right,
Ontario web site for Non resident moose.
Non residents of Ontario must get a :Validation tag, along with a outdoors card and moose tag, provided FREE OF CHARGE as part of the purchased hunting package.
They can try to hide the cost of the tag if they want. If you want to be sure you're not getting ripped by the outfitter who is charging for a tag, ask what the price is for a hunt if you have your own adult tag and then ask what the cost is with the outfitter tag. If it's different....call the c.o.'s or the Tips line and turn them in. As long as those who do it keep getting away with it, they'll keep ripping off the hunters. There are honest outfitter who do it the right way and provide the tags free of charge. The purpose of the "free" tag is for the outfitter to attract guests who may not otherwise have an adult tag. If the outfitter has no adult tags and their guests don't get adult tags through the draw....the outfitter may sit with empty cabins. The benefit to the outfitter is to be able to possibly fill cabins by providing his guests with the opportunity to hunt an adult moose by giving them the "free" tags. That is the benefit to the outfitter in $$$$. The outfitter that has 10 adult tags and charges guests an additional $500 for the tag makes an additional $5000 on top of the cabin/guide fee that he otherwise wouldn't have if he couldn't attract the guest with an adult tag. They are ripping off the client and breaking the law. If convicted their tag allocation will be suspended for a couple years. If you get an outfitter tag and don't use it.....take it home or destroy it. Don't use it if you're not accommodated at the outfitters. It was issued to you by an application on your behalf by the outfitter.
So what's going on here do ya think? http://www.pashalake.com/ontariohuntingtrippackages.htm
Bring you own tag: 399 per week.Quote:
Originally Posted by rippin_355
Use our archery tag 2999 per two weeks (1500/week).
Archery Moose Hunt - includes up to 2 week cabin rental, archery bull tag and archery cow tag (only available to additional hunters).
*** EXTREMELY POPULAR PACKAGE***
Package Rate is $2999
_________________
Resident Moose Hunting - includes weekly housekeeping cottage - call cabins come complete with 24/7 power, hot/cold running water, modern showers & toilet, linens and full kitchenette to include coffee maker, microwave, range top & oven, pots, pans and all cutlery. Upon request, we will go over WMU #19 & WMU #21A maps to familiarize you and your hunting party with this area.
Per person rate is $349CAN ($399CAN for parties of 3 or less) - minimum occupancy rates apply for 1st and 2nd week of gun season.
The archery moose is for 2 weeks and most likely includes a guide. He just does not have the full package shown. A local guide can get costly but worth while.
He does offer a great plan for residents though. He will provide direction to residents, means a lot!!
Where he goes wrong is when he says residents can use his tags for $2999.00.