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Well I'm finally pretty settled in my new place with renovation work done. Now comes the time to start looking for a pup. Looking for probably a choco lab, good hunting drive but over all more laid back. Any one have any recommendations? He will hunt geese and ducks, with the OCCASIONAL upland hunt. Want laid back good dog around the house and over companion.
Thanks guys!
Anyone? anything in SW Ontario?
Did you get my PM ? That forum is filled with good lab breeders in ON and knowledge of others that may be in your area.
Krakadawn is away, but PM Labber on here.
Coopers Lane Kennels in Arthur.
I hunt with a pal who has two of their dogs. Very good breeder, and stands behind their dogs.
Thanks everyone for the help so far.
I wouldn't restrict myself to only close breeders. You could be overlooking great dogs.
Sounds like I want a dog from British lines, so it is looking like I'm going to have to travel. Willing to listen to all ideas.
Do you mean a dog that is bench conformation or a dog that is actually from British lines? I have one that is from British lines and believe me she is anything but lay back. Her pedigree is full of English, Irish and Welsh field trial champions. She weighs about 55 LB and does not know what the word quit means when in the field. It is a misconception that British labs are large square headed dogs that are lay back. These dogs are show ,bench or conformation lines.
Most Labs will make good family members. Not all make good training prospects.
My priority would be finding a litter that has a Sire and dam that are proven either in a duck blind, or in hunt tests and field trials.
Get to know what health clearances are all about. Get to know some trainers in your area, and don't buy a pup until you know enough to be a little fussy.
See some dogs work, and you will open your eyes.
Seeing a well-bred lab is life changing and they resemble an average lab in looks only. The first time I saw krakadawn's dogs work I was in complete awe... and I still am every time we hunt or train together. It's not something you can describe - you have to see it to understand the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Labber
I agree. Amazing to see the highly trained dogs work, beautiful actually. You would also be impressed to hunt over a fully broke pointing dog that is steady to wing and shot. I have hunted over an all age setter that also retrieves to hand after release and its impressive. A fully broke pointer can be 500yds away, hold a bird on point until you get to it and flush it, you then shoot the bird and the dog will not move until you release it to fetch to hand. That level of performance is the result of expert training and good breeding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass
Kriscolands, just east of Ottawa. British-style yellows and blacks. They have a web site. We got a black male from her and he's fantastic.
Here's Bubba at 7 weeks.Attachment 28532 Call her - she may have chocolate pig-dogs too.
Looked at the Krisco web site.
I hope you realize that this is a successful show dog kennel. These dogs are not British style dogs just because they are full body, heavy headed animals.
Unfortunately our show standards continue to depart from athletic dogs.....dogs that are fit and agile to perform in the field.
I am not being critical of this kennel, they have been successful in the ring. Unfortunately dogs bred this way can not and do not compete in the world of Hunt tests or Field trials.....they just do not.
For someone looking for a solidly bred hunting dog that is able to perform in the field , they need to look in other places.
You may want to check out the Retriever Training Forum. Tons of litters posted on their classified section. It's mostly American but you are bound to find some great litters not too far from the border. I drove over 6 hrs from Oshawa to Ohio to get my boy and he was worth it! Definitely something to consider...
Nice pup Fenelon ! I use to live 25 minutes away from Kriscoland and have been at their kennel a few times. Some of the puppy purchasers do hunt with them more on a recreational bases. The Kriscoland lines go back to the British show lines such as Sandyland,Rocheby and Poolstead. Yes they are far removed from the British field lines but make great family pets and weekend warrior hunting buddies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
YD, I can agree with your description of hunting those dogs 'on a recreational bases' but not sure what you mean by 'weekend warrior buddies'Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Dogs built like these are not built to perform in the field. They are also greatly handicapped in the marsh. Can you imagine some of these tank like structures trying to climb over logs and handle bog and tules??? I can't.
The use of the term 'British Labs' seems to continually be misused in these discussions.
Krack - I think you have a condition that is known as "trial on the brain". I have friends who do it, and it's almost an obsession. Every waking hour of their existence is spent training their dogs, striving to get certain retriever papers for the dog, and their whole life is spent attending field events. You're obviously biased, as this hobby is your life. To each their own. If you read the original OP, the guy isn't looking for a trial dog. He wants a dog that will make a good family companion, and can be taken out on hunts. I've had three "British-style" labs now (heavy UK/British show lines in their paperwork, all with heavy head, thick otter tails, 80lb males) and they have all been excellent hunters. Everyone has a preference and I personally don't like the appearance of 90% of the trial/field dogs. Usually thinner framed, narrow muzzle, leaner face with less "skull", thinner tail and legs. The few I did like were all stockier dogs that had more of the British style show appearance. For the amount of time I spend training the dog, they've all turned out well. I pull the trigger, I send the dog out, and the dog always brings the duck, goose, or grouse back to me. I couldn't give a crap if the dog is whistle-trained, or if he picks up two ducks in his mouth at the same time, and I've never had to shock them when they're doing their thing. Never had a dog that had problems in the marsh. In fact, I think the stockier dogs do better when it comes to plowing through aquatic veg, swamp mud, etc. Look at the size of their feet ! Only Sally-dogs climb over logs. A real Lab simply bulldozes them out of the way! WTF are "tules"? Good God man !, you live in Canada and they're called bullrushes! Never seen a dog that couldn't walk through bulrush, or do the trial crowd call cattail "tule"?
British show lines are very different than the British field lines and can confuse most people not knowing the difference. Most show stock today if not all are descendants of such famous kennels as the ones mentioned above. I have a couple of British/Irish field stock females coming this summer from the U.K . I like both the British show and British field lines for different reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Fenelon. thank you very much for the life appraisal but sorry to inform you how far off course you are, My bias as you say is just observations over many years of the crap that is out there that are so called labs. I have seen so many that the last thing they are called is 'duck dogs'. Some you can coax to get in the water and swim maybe 5-10 yards for something they can see, those don't equate to the description of duck dogs, I have seen too many of them.
If you dislike the appearance of 90% of field trial dogs then that's fine but you've just told me how few you've really seen. Take a look at the avatars of a few here, if you saw them you'd see many dogs close or over the 80 lb range. They may not have melon size heads but all in all are a very pleasing to the eye animal but hey each to his own.
Your comments about '2 ducks in the mouth and shocked them'......where did that come from??? I think you're just exposing lack of information about training retrievers.
Climbing out of the 'bog' (hope that's ok to say) to get a duck can be very tough on dogs. Non athletic dogs tend not to excel at this and yup you really should see some of the 'sally' type dogs go over logs, requiring strength and stamina. And what's really at stake here is 'drive'. No drive equals no go!
It's not the trial crowd that refers to bulrushes sometime as 'tules', just some dumb folk who I've hunted with across Canada with expanded vocabulary.
To the OP, I realize you are not signing up to compete etc....... but currently the most intelligent dogs exist in the world of hunt tests and field trials, you will find the smartest dogs in lines that are successful. Those dogs can make you phenomenal hunters and house pets......because they have intelligence.
OP go with the best FT/HT/field dog you can find from a breeder that actively is involved in trial or tests. You are going to have that dog for 12+ years so might as well get one that has potential. I have heard very good things regarding Krakadawns dogs and Chris Bayles breeds outstanding animals. As to the appearance of "American labs" I have one out of B-Lines Raider, Guage is 91 pds very well proportioned and has retrieved on the order of 5000+ birds in his life. I think he is a good looking dog but I might be biased. LOLAttachment 28552
Here are a few kennels/folks thatcome to mind. B-Line Labs, Kevin Hannah, Scott Rumble, Krakadawn, Luke Scherders WingFeather Outfitters. There are lots more and these guys if they don't have a litter will reference you to someone who does.
Photo is a shameless plugs for B-line Labs and AvianX decoys. ;)
Your absolutely right terrym it most definitely will pay off if you expand your search and do your homework. Sometimes you can find decent dogs in your own backyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Going to jump in for some shameless fun... Have you considered a chessie??
Club standards tries for breeding of confirmation and working dogs. Not having separate lines
I have hunted over a few. That breed gives meaning to the term "hunting dog".Quote:
Originally Posted by chesapeake
Welcome chesapeke tell us more. Chessies are awesome !Quote:
Originally Posted by chesapeake
Fun as started!
My advice buy the breed that suits your fancy.
Also if you want a working dog. Buy from a breeder that puts his lines in hunts/trials. You can see in the dogs registered names what they are capable of with achieved titles.
Personally, I wanted a chesapeake. Attended some hunt tests, watched Jr, sr and masters. Talked to breeders. Then made a decision on where to buy from.
And yes there were many great looking labs doing there thing. Even some field line golden and the fancy golden.
The wife liked the tollers.
My buddy is now on his 5th Chessy. He aways has 2 around. He lives in Northern Quebec and hunts pretty harsh conditions and will never own anything but a chessy. I must say though, last year when he was looking for a pup we had a hard time finding a good one. From what I see that breed is very much becoming a bench breed too. Much easier to find a quality field lab. But when you have a good chessy you have an amazing hunting dog.
Terry my hunting Buddy is also a Peake person. When we went looking for a pup for him last year it was just amazing. The majority of what we found was very expensive and lacking a lot of field breeding, in fact most were bench products. He was prepared to spend 2k on a pup but we just couldn't find one either here or USA.
He settled on a yellow lab female from a line that threw big dogs and was FTC sired. He couldn't be happier and got her for a fair bit less than his budget. He also got one with hips/eyes/EIC/CNM clearances. He couldn't be happier.
I've seen the top performing Chessies, I like them, in fact a number of years ago I judged the Chesapeake Specialty so saw the best in the nation....always interesting when you have the opportunity to see a variance in type/size and ability.
Terry, I'm surprised by your statement but you may be right.
I think the chessie breeders are fewer & further between, but a higher percentage of them try to maintain the working qualities in the lines.
Re British/show labs vs field trial dogs, never underestimate the impact of marketing.
This is exactly what we ran into. I would say most breeders were mostly show/confirmation focused. He ended up finding a good breeder near Ottawa. Very pleaeed with the female he bought. If I was him I would have bought one of the excellent labs that are available but that wasn't even a consideration, wasn't going to happen. He's a great dog trainer and avid hunter. His dogs are great hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Hah-hah! You're going on talking trash about show-line conformation, loss of athletic ability in the field, and yet your avatar shows three beautiful English-style, stocky body, heavy bone show conformation dogs in the image (from what I can see, as the image is fairly small). All three look like tanks to me, precisely the style of dog I've been referring to. I would call these good-looking dogs. You just need to spray paint them black. They'd be log-pushers for sure :). I never saw the smarts in any dog that would listen to a human telling them to crawl over a submerged piece of ragged timber, when it has the option of logically surveying its situation, thinking independently, and simply swimming around the obstacle. I guess if they did this in a trial they'd lose points. Same goes for a dog that does a 200yd retrieve, then swims to the nearest point, and carries it back to you on land. A big no-no if you're trying to get that piece of paper, but a smart dog in my books. I've watched some trials (I admit not a lot), and I must admit it is impressive to see the level of obedience that the dog exhibits when working with the handler. Didn't like (or maybe I just don't understand it's purpose) the presence of all the shocking gear that seemed to be a big part of some trainer's routine. A totally different world from what I want out of my relationship with my dog. If I'm lucky to drop three ducks, he can take his pick of which one he wants to pick up first. I'm happy if he zig-zags his way through the submerged trees during his swim, lest he risk unnecessary injury to his chest and abdomen. Who cares if it takes him 40 seconds longer to bring my bird back? I don't agree with your statement regarding field dogs being the most intelligent dogs in existence. These dogs simply have the right selection of personality/ temperment traits that are conducive to being trained in the way in which you want them to perform eg. a dog willing to be utterly obedient to the handler, total devotion, drive, strong hunt instinct,and yes smart. If you read the stuff on canine intelligence (IQ) testing, the dog that you'd deem unworkable and probably want to strangle while training will prob. have the higher score (ability to think independently, abstract ability, independence confidence, etc) - check out the Dognition stuff. It's actually kind of interesting to test your own dog. Can't say I'd rank a trials/field Lab above any of the therapy/disability dogs (usually conformation/show pedigrees) that I've been around. Same goes for the Enforcement dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
I think it is kind of foolish to say that an average dog is more intelligent than one that has been selectively bred for generations for trainability
Fenlon to be clear I'm not trash talking at all. Critical assessment is far from that. It appears you may have been to a trial or two from your examples. There is no doubt, trials do not mirror a general days hunting, they go way beyond that. In the beginning that was the purpose but as dogs and people have got better so then have the demands od competition.
The 3 in the avatar are not tanks, guess the small pic doesn't show their solid athletic body confirmation nor does a still pic demonstrate the fluid motion they are capable of.
Just so you know the main source of military dogs in the USA are field trial wash outs, they require basic handling skills as a prerequisite.
Guess I should update the avatar to include my black dog and golden as well...........then perhaps we might agree....Cheers!
No doubt a key quality in many lines is the ability to partner, the want to be part of and yes the underlining ability to take direction, but make no mistake these dogs are not robotic and a great deal of training goes into getting these dogs to that point. Renegades and rebels usually do poorly not only in competitive life but life in general.
Without going into a lot of this, the purpose of going straight is to mark accurately and do a good retrieve. I understand you could care less if your dog lands early and runs the shore, for most hunters this is satisfactory, I agree.
There are numerous cognitive tests that breeders use ,to assess pups and do some early head start programming, that's been around for awhile.
No, what I am saying is "a dog selectively bred for generations for trainability is probably more intelligent than your average dog", just like I wrote in my previous post. I made no mention of show labs whatsoever. Your monitor must add extra words.
EDIT: It appears that the post this was a reply to was removed. Feel free to ignore
Yellow Dog......what happened to your post??
LOL just wanted to see if you were still awake.
It sounded like labs in general including the British labs that was discussed on a previous post. I was waiting for some research document indicating test results that you were going to post. I do have a Mac computer and no it doesn't add extra words.lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Cass
I'm not aware of any formal tests of intelligence that would have compared that of any show background dog with one of FT breeding.
There are some facts though that would confirm certain levels of intelligence:
FT retrievers have been sought out on a regular basis for the dog training program currently in use since Iraq/Aphganistan. I know personally several of these trainers, they are not seeking bench dogs.
Dogs like your springer and labs have had to prove themselves in competition by measuring up to a standard or performing better than the rest. The skill sets are very specific. Tests require memory, tractability, trainability, accurate eye sight, good nose, drive, sagacity and problem solving. Dogs that distinguished themselves have been rewarded with appropriate titles. When searching pedigress many of us look for these whether Canadian, USA or British. Bench dogs have not been tested to that degree.
It's pretty clear where the intelligence lies. That does not say however that there are not other fine cognitive animals that never got the chance to be tested . What is clear though that those who have achieved their titles.....well that's a fact and they have demonstrated those qualities and had them confirmed.....lab, springer, brit....whatever
Just to throw a wrench in the gears, the smartest dogs I've known in my life were all mutts. There must be something to be said about hybrid vigour. We're talking a dog that you could say "beer me Dude", and the mutt would walk into the kitchen, and grab you a Canadian out of the box. You'd ask him if he was hungry, and he'd moan/grumble "I'm hungry". You'd be on the crapper, laying some cordage, when you'd realize you were out of bowel towel. You'd yell "Dude....bring me some tickets", and he'd go to the pantry and bring you back a roll of ring wipe in his mouth. When you said the word "Ïrish", he'd bare his teeth and growl. Now that's a dog!
I know some of the Springville Springer dogs have been used and Wild Rose kennels out of the U.S as well. My Lab is 3/4 show bloodline and has been an incredible little hunting dog. Her offspring as well were a result of Ch. show dogs used as studs that produced two of her three litters. Most went as family pets , hunting homes and therapy dogs. The ones that went to hunting homes did extremely well considering the majority of the pedigree was show bloodline.
I thought you were talking about an old girl friend. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
There is a Lab dealer on every corner. Take your time.
I'd recommend Doug Campeau, Essex/Windsor area.
I think I know him . Is he on the the corner of 5th and 6th ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mount Sweetness
Let's not forget one very important fact regardless of how you see this discussion and that is Health Clearances. I still see numerous kennels that choose not to or do not know what health clearances they should provide. Some definitely have their head in the sand when it comes to Health tests.
I would say 90% of the kennels I know or have talked to have all health clearances. If it is not on the website I will email them and ask but most of the time do. I had asked Duckhill kennels if they did CNM, EIC screening and the answer was no because they never have had any adult breeding dogs or pups show any sign of either. I did explain how cheap the testing was and that it would give them piece of mind knowing that breeding animals were clear . They were not interested.
There are many examples on this forum that I have felt my efforts were worthwhile. This isn't one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenelon
Good effort on your part YD but such close mindedness on any kennel to make such silly statements in this era.....hard to imagine. Any carrier will not demonstrate the characteristics of the disease but carrier bred to carrier will produce an Affected....one that will demonstrate the disease. Just unforgiveable.
Imagine having your dog swimming back to you with a bird in mouth only to suffer a seizure and drown.
County Road 15, near the creek