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I took my pump rabbit hunting the other day and it got so iced up there was no way i would have got a second shot at anything. Wouldn't have been an issue with the sxs.
I hunt almost exclusively with doubles. I like having 2 different chokes , the simplicity and safety of loading/unloading and being able to crack it open when walking. This is especially useful when hunting over a dog that can be quite excited. Also just plain prefer the feel and balance of a double.
I like my Browning Silver 20 g semi very smooth and not heavy.
Certainly o/u's and sxs's are not the only way to go but here in the south when it comes to shooting flyers in training, they are almost exclusive and one would not dare show up for a plantation hunt with anything but an o/u or sxs.
The issue of safety and having guns open at various times trumps personal choice.
I hunt on private land and still prefer my semi than my o/u. Probably never do a plantation hunt or desire to. Safety is safe.
So do I in many situations but certain places demand break open guns, it's a visual thing......gun open means safe gun.
My next gun will be an O/U, I want one so bad. The group that I train the dog with all the guys have them (except one who has a sxs) and they are just beautiful. I think it would be perfect for the bush.
I have only had my o/u for close to two months but keep on going back to my semi. It may take some time to get use to it but feel more comfortable with the semi. I keep on thinking maybe I made the wrong decision with the o/u purchase.
I like my semi but its a beast. 30" barrel on that bad boy. It is currently what I use for everything - grouse, woodcock, waterfowl.... Love it, just think I would prefer a nice light o/u for trudging through the thick stuff. I never get off the 3rd shot anyways in the uplands and before this year always just used my old cooey single shot.
That's what counts the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Don't get me wrong it is a really nice gun but maybe not the right gun for me. It's a Condor Supreme and I had a Cooey 12g single shot before that. The Cooey was a shoulder buster and left me black and blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
Ninepointer's comment really gets to the bottom line......gun needs to fit regardless of style.
I shoot a benelli autoloader for waterfowl almost exclusively. It's been adjusted accordingly and fits, we all shoot better when they fit. On the other hand it's always an o/u when upland or flyer shooting when dog training. The gun is shorter but once again, it fits. I also like the 50year old plus vintage of guns, especially the Winchesters so that is part of the equation.
If you ever get a chance to be part of a shooting seminar then take it. There are so many tips a good instructor can give in such a short time. Go to a trap range and discuss this with the guys there, most will help.
By the way, go to your local trap range maybe during an ATA shoot where folks shoot between 300 to 500 rounds during the day. Many hunters wouldn't shoot that many in a season. Their guns have to fit, not like the old single shot bruisers
They are. Reality is the 3rd shot is pretty well a waste in the uplands anyway. Wait until you walk through the woodcock jungle with a nice light and lively double. Your 30" barelled repeater will become a turkey/waterfowl gun after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass
I love sxs and o/u, couldn't imagine not hunting with them. When I was younger I was a die hard auto guy too. I use to use a 12ga semi for everything, then one day tried a 20ga o/u on a bunny hunt. Was hooked ever since, now I really like sxs and use them a lot. For any one who hasn't tried them yet highly recommend you do. Just stay away from the cheaper ones they defeat the real feel of a properly made double gun. A well made one will be reliable light weight and well balanced, easy to carry and fast to swing on game and be just as nice looking as the surrounding scenery.
I still own one 12g semi ( SBE2) but for upland only use doubles. My problem is I'm a junkie and have collected too many of them....:ashamed:
That's what I'm afraid of !
Everybody is entitled to at least one weakness. .......Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
For 20 years I used pumps for everything (still use one for ducks, deer, turkeys and sometimes clays), but I got into doubles for 2 reasons:
1) It was all the beagle wrangling on our cottontail hunts that made me appreciate the convenience of a break-action gun (first single shots and later doubles) in those situations;
2) My earliest childhood memories include that of a little framed print hanging in our home; it was of two gentlemanly looking hunters with SxSs and their dog. That vision never left me.
I've had a few high end O/U 's , problem is the thick stuff I hunt.
I spend half the day just worrying about scratching or marking the wood LOL
I solved that problem this year. Bought a lower grade AYA 16g SxS and shortened the barrels. It is now Cyl/Cyl and points like wand. Light and handy and I don't care if it gets scratched. Strictly my woodcock gun for the crazy covers I hunt. Shots are almost never longer than 25 yds so just the ticket. My "pretty guns" will get used in the more forgiving covers...lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic
Or you can bust through backwards and learn to shoot over your shoulder ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic
You're a flushing dog owner eh......:silly:Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
sxs are nice to carry and to look at, but, other than a bunch of English traditionalists, I've never heard of any serious shooter using a sxs. u/o is a completely different story. personally, I don't hunt anymore with u/o, but rather use a modern semi.
the problem with the later is the safety aspect. nothing beats the ease of a hinge action; if it's open it's safe (something nearly everybody is able to grasp regardless what's going on in the field)
They are hunting guns typically and not built to the same demands of sporting guns. Light to carry, very dynamic in handling. Don't know too many who would consider themselves "English traditionalists"myself included but many upland hunters choose the SxS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Maybe should have worded it differently. I know quite a good number of serious hunters who shoot SxS, but not one single (sport)shooter who would touch it with a long stick. SxS have their merits; i.e. looks and easy carry, but there are better options when it comes to shooting. I used to lug heavy U/O through the bush (because that were my "tools" at the time), but realized soon that hunting does not only consist of shooting. Now I nearly exclusively, use light semis (Rem and Auto 5 haven't seen any daylight for years).Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
The problem with semis is not the gun, but WHO carries it. So, give me choice of what fellow hunters will carry, it were hinge actions (but I will keep my semi !)
I tried to like the semi but just couldn't. Used a Benelli Ultralight one season and found it just worried me with a dog around me, sold it after 1 season. Now when the dog is around I just break the double and all I have to think about is the dog and or bird he is carrying. Heavy sporting O/U are not the best tool for upland nor is a light double best tool for sporting games. You can play 18 holes of golf with an 8 iron only but there are better options.
I know what you are saying, I would like to get one in every gauge.Quote:
I still own one 12g semi ( SBE2) but for upland only use doubles. My problem is I'm a junkie and have collected too many of them....:ashamed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Seconded on both points. The break action is safer, especially when you have to bust through thick cover. A consideration when hunting woodcock with a flushing dog. And I will never worry about scratching anything -- partly because I shoot cheap guns, but also partly because if I ever bought a gun I was afraid to use, I'd turn around and sell it.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Now, somebody will break out the tired old line that safety comes not from the gun but from the guy behind it. True to a point, but the design of the gun can make safe handling more convenient, or less.
You're right, and much as target shooting trends through history have run through virtually all the shotgun actions, I think the O/U has proven itself as the one to stay. It sure seems to offer an edge in a sport where one miss in 100 is the difference between a competitor and just another guy in the squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
I had looked at a Chiappa o/u but chose the Condor Supreme . I think I may try a few more out to see if I can find a better fit.
very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
"upland" makes no difference IMHO, but handling a dog and what comes with it does (taking the birds, arranging other shooters with respect to the dog, shooting yourself etc)
I equate upland with walking all day and shooting very little. Often in very thick cover as opposed to waterfowling where you sit mostly and shoot quite a bit mostly in wide open spaces. But an excited gun dog is what it is regardless of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
The O/U owns the target shooting world. But if you look at folks like Bob Brister, they have all suggested that what works best on the range doesn't necessarily work best in all shooting situations. I keep an open mind on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
This thread is just begging for pictures.
Another advantage for the double barrel shotgun is overall length. A hinge action with lets say 28" barrels will be shorter then the comparable repeater (pump semi) with 28" barrels because of the absence of a receiver. Making the double barrel gun a little nicer to carry in the thick brush and the shorter 4 to 5" might be the deference swinging on a grouse or woodcock and not getting the end of your barrels snagged on branch and bagging the bird.
Actually, that argument goes two ways. Yes, you are certainly right that you will have a shorter gun, and there might be a slight advantage fighting through the thickets with a stubby gun. However, two barrels weigh more and if you want them longer, which tends to be better for wing shooting, the receiver of a light semi will give you extra length and not necessarily the full weight of two barrels.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishhawk
The two barrels give you two (different) chokes. I hate having two triggers! I think I can count on one hand how often I switched to the tight choke first while hunting with an O/U.
Pump actions are certainly not anything I would consider. I understand that many grow up with them and they are cheap, but I cannot see any convincing technical reason to choose them over a semi or a break action.
If the stock fits and one is able to safely operates the gun under all circumstances, it comes down to personal preference. And in my case, even that has changed over the years since semis got lighter.
I'm not really familiar with modern semi's, what does a typical "lite" semi weigh?
Well made doubles barrels are not heaver compared to repeaters, most double barrel shotguns will weight less then a repeater.Quote:
Actually, that argument goes two ways. Yes, you are certainly right that you will have a shorter gun, and there might be a slight advantage fighting through the thickets with a stubby gun. However, two barrels weigh more and if you want them longer, which tends to be better for wing shooting, the receiver of a light semi will give you extra length and not necessarily the full weight of two barrels.
The two barrels give you two (different) chokes. I hate having two triggers! I think I can count on one hand how often I switched to the tight choke first while hunting with an O/U.
Pump actions are certainly not anything I would consider. I understand that many grow up with them and they are cheap, but I cannot see any convincing technical reason to choose them over a semi or a break action.
If the stock fits and one is able to safely operates the gun under all circumstances, it comes down to personal preference. And in my case, even that has changed over the years since semis got lighter.
My 12ga comes in at just under 7lbs and my 20ga just under 6lbs, both with 28" barrels, that is one of the reasons why i like them, lighter. As for the double triggers, I don't have one with them. All mine are single selective triggers. Just not use to double triggers as I grew up shooting repeaters. I just always select to fire the barrel with the most open choke first and then if I miss with that shot now I have the tighter choked barrel to fire at the bird that will now be at a further distance. Works out well. As for being cheaper, mine all cost me over $2000.
We talking about 12 3.5" here...Quote:
Originally Posted by TPM
Maxus Stalker 3-1/2 in., 28 inch barrel: 6 lbs. 15 oz.
Vinci, MAX-4 Camo, 26 inch: 7 lbs., 1 oz.
A400, non-KO, 28 inch: 6 lbs. 13 oz.
The old 12ga 2 3/4" were around the 9lbs.
[QUOTEWe talking about 12 3.5" here...
Maxus Stalker 3-1/2 in., 28 inch barrel: 6 lbs. 15 oz.
Vinci, MAX-4 Camo, 26 inch: 7 lbs., 1 oz.
A400, non-KO, 28 inch: 6 lbs. 13 oz.
The old 12ga 2 3/4" were around the 9lbs.][/QUOTE]
I am not talking about old Russian or Brazilian cheap made guns ether. Same manufacturers your talking about but there double barrel line, Italian, Spanish, etc. I actuality have a Browning Maxus I use for waterfowl and turkey. Nice gun.
nobody wants to spoil your gun!
all I'm saying is that semis lost a lot of weight over the last decade (which used to be an argument against them) and that you get for roughly the same weight a relatively long gun, which some will prefer (shooting) and others maybe not (thickets). And because of whatever the particular hunting situation calls for, you will need to compromise on something; to me it continues to be a personal preference. personally, I narrowed it down to U/O or semi
However, you bring up a good point and that is price. Might not be the foremost deciding factor for you and me, but certainly for many (look at the high number of pump actions still sold today; i.e. <$500). It's no secret that an European-made break action will cost you (significantly) more than a US or Japan-made semi. And of course it holds true that you get what you pay for...
I'm not "anti semi". My turkey/waterfowl gun is a SBE2. I have a BAR 7mm08 for deer but when hunting upland will grab one of my doubles every time. My hunting O/U each weigh 6lbs and are a joy to carry. Just added a Sauer 16g SxS that weighs 6.5 lbs.
I hear what you are saying and I am a big fan of semi autos as well, been using them my self for years. I own Beretta's and Brownings and there nice guns, and since the manufactures have gone to aluminum receivers the weights have gone down. I personally like to use O/U and SxS for upland game for reasons stated above. But a good semi or pump is hard to beat.Quote:
nobody wants to spoil your gun!
all I'm saying is that semis lost a lot of weight over the last decade (which used to be an argument against them) and that you get for roughly the same weight a relatively long gun, which some will prefer (shooting) and others maybe not (thickets). And because of whatever the particular hunting situation calls for, you will need to compromise on something; to me it continues to be a personal preference. personally, I narrowed it down to U/O or semi
However, you bring up a good point and that is price. Might not be the foremost deciding factor for you and me, but certainly for many (look at the high number of pump actions still sold today; i.e. <$500). It's no secret that an European-made break action will cost you (significantly) more than a US or Japan-made semi. And of course it holds true that you get what you pay for...
one thing that maybe hasn't been mentioned are the loads required for upland hunting - comparably light LEAD loads - and the subsequent requirements on a gun
looking at the new dove regulations I'm kind of concerned (although not surprised) what way we are heading. traditionally, we can use lead for woodcock, but not for dove, which are typically hunted over dry ground...
On the other hand I prefer double triggers. To each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Semi's certainly have come down in weight. Both my SxS's weigh in around 7 lbs but they are by no means light weights by upland game gun standards. A good game gun should be a lot closer to 6 lbs than 7lbs. Interestingly enough my current go to bird gun is an Ithaca 37 pump in 16ga. Handles well, shoots well and weighs in at 6 lbs 2oz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Not surprising, considering the Model 37 receivers were sized for each gauge. A friend of mine has one and when you pick it up you know you're holding a true 16 ga., not a 12 ga. in disguise.Quote:
Originally Posted by TPM
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but I've always preferred the snick-snick sound of Model 37's action over the clackety-clack of an 870.
You can pretty easily dismiss every single one of these 5 reasons.
I have a bolt 410, single and double 16ga, pump 20ga and pump 12ga. I have used every single one of them hunting upland game, not a single one could not be used for hunting upland game.
The only thing I have ever had freeze was a firing pin and that could happen on a single or double just as easily as anything else.
Dismissed may read a bit harsh but I agree with you. This reads more like five reasons to give the wife for permission to buy another gun. In reality for me there is only 1 reason to use a gun...because I prefer this one and it feels good in my hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Exactly, none of the 5 reasons is actually a good reason unless you are looking for justification to drop money on a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
If you buy a pump 12ga you can shoot anything and have very little difficulty. The same can be said for a semi (if kept clean), a bolt, double, single, pretty much whatever you want to shoot.
I have a buddy who wanted an O/U, so he bought one. I guess he looks odd hunting deer with it but that is his shotgun and he enjoys shooting it so he will do well with it.
It it fun taking a bolt 410 to the trap range :), singles are better than doubles though.
... and if we really, really wanted to we could do all our fishing with only one fishing rod. But most of us who fish own more than one rod, geared towards certain species and techniques. Like one of the commenters below the article stated, its really a first world problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I also have many tools, I use them all for different purposes and work from high handicap down.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
What I was getting at is that the 5 reasons have very little bearing on a hunt.
5) Look Good - Very open to interpretation
4) Don't Litter - Whom ever does not pick up their shells is just lazy, it is rare to have them fall so far that you cannot find them
3) 2 Chokes - Most of the time the shooter is concentrating on the bird, they should not be thinking about what trigger they are pulling or did they click over the selector switch. 2 chokes can be nice, and 2 different shot sizes as well, but if you have the bird in the center of the pattern it should not matter if it is modified or improved in 99% of scenarios.
2) Gun always works - Only ever had 1 jam on my pump, had jams on my break actions, had jams on the bolt
1) Feel safer - Well if you feel safer with a break action then you need to think about how you use your firearm. If someone with a break action has it broken and pointing at me I am flipping my lid the same as if they are pointing a semi at me. Safety is good gun handling practices and has nothing to do with the action itself. If you get caught using poor practices it does not matter if your gun is a break or a semi.
I am sorry, I thought it was a snooty article.
For the record, my favourite gun is a double side by side 16ga, I used it for a tom this spring, many grouse and rabbits and I picked up a bunch of wads so I can reload for it and take it to the trap range.
I love the double but I would never write an article saying it was safer or better in any way than any other shotgun.
If the gun fits you and you like it then use it.
If that means it is a brand new tactical pump or a muzzle loader have at er.
That's pretty funny. I used to do all my upland shooting with a pump. And I like shooting pumps. But from the standpoint of picking up shells, no thanks. This is one real benefit to a break gun, preferably one with extractors instead of ejectors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Come hunting woodcock with me some day, and we'll see how much time you spend hunting for spent hulls instead of birds.
I can't recall the last time I met someone in the field who didn't break open his O/U when he met me and stopped to chat. And I can't recall the last time I met someone with a semi or a pump who did make safe. You can surely debate whether making safe is necessary there, but make sure to multiply by all those other scenarios where people really should make safe but don't bother. There are lots, when you get into thicker cover. Easy handling is safe handling; inconvenience encourages sloppiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
If you think design has nothing to do with safety, then I'm sure you'll agree that guards over moving machinery are just an unnecessary cost that employers shouldn't be burdened with. If the worker would just stand clear, there'd be no problem, right? No substitute for workers staying alert!
That's all that needs to be said on that one.
I grab every shellQuote:
Originally Posted by welsh
I also break open the action of any gun I have when around people, this is common safety practices.
It may be easier to grab shells from the back of the break action of crack open the break when approaching a person but a couple minutes to grab your shells and 1 little push on the pump release makes the gun unable to fire.
I converted from U/O to semis for multiple reasons (some I mentioned before), but anyone with real life experience will not argue the safety aspect and the shell problem. I even contemplated to buy a UGB25 to have a break action semi auto, but didn't because of its technical issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Only the shell problem would be I'll give you. My Brown 12 with a flip of the magazine cut off and a pull on the tab its as open as any break open safty is never an issue in safe hands.
While I'm certainly a big fan of double guns; I also own & hunt with 2 pumps, and I used to own a Beretta semi. However, I have to say that I share Welsh's observations in this regard. I think it has to do with those simple yet extra steps it takes to make a pump/semi safe, including occasionally having to pick up an ejected live shell from the ground. Human nature is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Nice!Quote:
Originally Posted by TPM
Good weight/3 shots/always goes bang every time/16 hits like a 12 and carries and shoots like a 20.For one gun to do all a pump is a good choice for sure.
I do like the SS,OU and semis sometimes to though:-)
Carry and point better to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninepointer
Very admirable and good for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Unfortunately a lot don't.Even myself sometimes:-(
I have a 12 semi(Smith and Wesson 1000 for those that remember them.lol),2 12 pumps(870 and 37),16 LC Smith S by S,and one SKB 20 OU.
Love them all in different ways and they all have thier place.
Waterfowl-3 quick shots and stay on target with some recoil reduction.The auto is king.
Want to make sure it goes bang 3 times every time.Say for your deer,coyote and such.Pumpy rules.
Upland/Skeet/Carry/Bush-Side by and OU really come into thier own.I do wish the OU had double triggers though.When that pheasant pops up at 40 and so on.
3 shots-So rare.
And dont they seem a little cooler in the gentleman woods:-)LOL!
Banged a lot of small game with the pumps and auto though.....
Thats why the wives need to know that you really need 4!....Or more:-)
Well, I'm glad you do and I agree this is good safety practice. Common, however, it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I hunt a lot of public areas where you run into people all the time: Hullet, Fingal, etc. I could count on one hand the number of people who make pumps and semis safe when they run into you one one hand, without taking off my mittens. Unfortunate but true. And it's because the gun makes it harder.
Again, that's a smaller concern than what people do or don't do when they have to crawl through cover or hop over a downed tree or whatever.
Now, you can fairly argue this is in the hands of the user. True enough. But me, I'd rather hunt with a gun that makes it easy, which takes us back to the original point.
Don't get me wrong, I used to do all my upland hunting with a pump, and I like pumps. I'm not down on other guns and I don't care how classy I look -- I'm humble enough to know that I make any gun look classy. ;)