at least he kept the Zamboni driver and the anthem singer :)
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at least he kept the Zamboni driver and the anthem singer :)
maybe he shouldnt have, im sure its the zomboni driver they will blame next, making the ice to slippery for them to play on
If MLS allows him the leeway to work through his plan properly, they may have a good team in 3 to 4 years. The more important aspect is doing what Detroit has done for years, player development through juniors instead of buying "talent". Time will tell.
Oh, so their back to the rebuilding phase? Don't they do that every 5 years lol.
you know what I miss, the good ol days of Sundin, Gilmour, Wendel Clark, Potvin, Curtis Joseph.... they weren't pansies like they are now... they showed grit until the end of the game. I stopped watching the moment when Sundin left.... the leafs died that day :-/ haven't watched them since.
Hauling out the years of soiled sheets must have been the hardest part of the clean out from what I can imagine.
TR, as JM eluded to the problem was the Leaf "rebuild" was more like every 2 years. Hopefully they give him the time needed to build.
Hey, will a little luck they will dump Kessel! His sister puts more effort into a game than he ever did and I never heard her whining that no one passes her the puck! savage308
Remember those days well, mostly because they didn't win then either, I don't care if they win the cup anymore, I would just like to see them show up and be able to compete. There are so many teams in the league now its a tough ask to win the cup, especially if your home base is Toronto.Quote:
Originally Posted by poltrojan
The Zamboni driver is probably in better shape than Kessel so maybe they need to suit him up.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishy steve
While Shanahan made a good move, I hate to say this but I think the fans of the Leafs are in for more than five years of rockiness from their team. First, Shanahan had zero experience running a hockey team when he was hired. This entire year he has been getting his feet wet. Toronto isn't exactly a great place to gain on the job experience running a hockey team. He inherited Nonis as a GM and Carlyle as a coach (as well as everyone else). Now he is going to be the one who directly or indirectly affects how the team is shaped over the next five years and he is no doubt going to make some massive blunders.
Everyone is running hot on Connor MacDavid (and from what I have seen of him, rightly so). If the Leafs happen to gain the number one pick, how many people out there think he should be drafted by the Leafs? Considering the Leafs have a horrible track record of developing their own talent and the problems with the leadership on the team, one player isn't going to fix what is wrong with this ship. The Leafs need an overhaul, not an oil change. One draft pick isn't going to do that.
They do it every 2, if they did it every 5 they may win something.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkeyRookie
The best teams seem to clean things out after they win and are back in the show in a couple years, unless you are Detroit, they have horseshoes and great scouting.
Shanny will not be the man to fix that franchise. As bad as things have gotten... they're still not bad enough for anyone pulling the strings or cutting the cheques to be forced to fully, truly, rebuild.
It takes 10-20 years to build a strong NHL franchise, and it starts at the bottom with strong youth development - something TO has completely ignored since... forever.
Oddmott,Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
I agree. You can get to the post season dance in four years after a rebuild (Sens and Sharks did it as expansion teams when they came into the league). However, to have a team which consistently qualifies for the playoffs, you need a bit longer. Good, solid hockey teams are built from the goal out. The two top teams in the league (Ana and NYR) didn't have their highest scoring player anywhere near the scoring leader but they were 1st and 3rd in goals against per game.
Dyth
Bingo and that's something Leaf Fans can't seem to grasp, and the most galling thing is. Post salary capQuote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
Would you not expect the "richest" franchise, to have a significant advantage over the rest of the league, because they more than anyone have the money to spend on scouting, player development, training/conditioning and more????
There's a cancer in that team and nobody seems willing to do the tough things that need to be done to completely heal the disease. Mr.Shanahan was a tremendous player and super star in his own right,but,I doubt even he has the business accumin to turn this team around unless two things happen. First,the executive must give him complete,unfettered reign to hire,fire and maintain strict discipline from the water boy all the way to the head coach and all his staff. Second,he must maintain strict PR control over the media as afr as all team contact in all forms. He must completely and strictly bar them from the locker room and all private player areas,including practices,without exception. Players can't play if they must deal with the intrusive and in most cases,downright ignorant reporters as well as do what they've been hired to do. They're players,not PR people and should never be exposed to that kind of pressure because it's too distracting. That's the job of the executive.
I'm not a die hard fan of any team or a huge hockey fan for that matter. But from what I've seen is that Kessel is fat and lazy and doesn't deserve to wear any jersey of a Canadian team. And I believe Diane Phaneauf needs to go. To build a team that meshes and has talent takes time and money. Plus you have to overcome the curse ;)
Trimmer I think your on to something. Every professional let alone professional athlete has up and down days, and worst... Stumps.
Would you guys recover quickly or easily after hearing your name and ethic dragged through the mud after a poor outing. Paper press, radio, TV, word of mouth. all these guys hear is negative.
I understand they are paid handsomely to perform, and the media should not be an excuse for not doing so.
So true. We forget how young these kids are. That would put tremendous pressure on Mac David. I'm sure fans will look to him to be the cure-all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
I'm optimistic that within 4 or 5 years the Leafs will be a different organization that is competing in the playoffs. IMO, it is irrelevant that Shanahan doesn't have experience - he knows what it takes to win as he's won at every level. All he has to do is look around for examples of WHAT NOT TO DO - lot of screwups made by so called, highly paid 'best in the business' executives. (he should have a picture of David Clarkson in his office :))
Just follow these very simple lessons - don't fall in love with your players, don't overpay, be very careful with the length of term and develop your new talent. And like he made clear during the press conference - BE PATIENT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo
i think this will happen, but they may be called the windsor oak leafs by then lol
I think the biggest problem they will face is getting players ( real players ) to come play for them, what 27-30 year old good hockey player wants to come to a rebuilding team, at that stage in their career they are looking to move to a cup contender, thus the leafs will have to over pay to get quality talent to come play for them, the next 5 years are going to be tough on leaf fans as they will almost certainly lose more games than they win, it is going to take some smart scouting and salary cap management to get this team back on track and that is a hard thing to do in this day and age. Shanahan might not even be here by the time this team is ready to contend for a cup run, that has to be at least 7-8 years out, players that should be moved right not are Kessel for sure, Phaneauf for sure, Gardiner for sure, to me the only untouchable on this team right now is Reilly and I think management knows that as well,
But on a bright note, tonight starts the best part of the hockey season, PLAYOFFS, so sit back and enjoy the next 2 1/2 months of what REAL hockey teams can do. not sure how Shanahan can tape every game and watch them but he should as this is when you see the hidden talent on teams, that 3rd line guy plugging away who comes up with a timely goal or assist, those are the guys you need playing for you,
Wahoo,Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo
I understand what you are saying but simply excelling at every level you played a sport at doesn't make a good executive. If that were the case the Phoenix Coyotes would have won a lot of games with Gretzky as the coach. Don't get me wrong, Shanahan was a stud when he played (one of the reasons I always picked him in my hockey pools) but being President of a hockey team requires a different set of skills and experience. Most Presidents have had experience running a successful business (and an education in business) as their responsibilities are totally different than a coach or GM (who run the day to day affairs of the team). Most of your points which you say Shanahan needs to adhere to are the responsibilities of the GM.
Let's look at Shanahan's most recent move. He fired Nonis, the coaching staff, the director of scouting and the director of player development and has stated he hopes to have a GM in place by the draft but he isn't going to be bound by deadlines. Now you are going to rebuild your team with one of the deeper draft pools coming up (I have heard it may rival 2003's depth) and you say don't feel bound by deadlines? I think he should have had a new GM ready to go because the new GM rebuilding a team will want to hire his own coaching staff, director of scouting and director of player development and getting those pieces in place takes time and you are just over 2 months from the draft.
Chiarelli just got canned by Boston. So, there's pretty much the best young GM in the league available. Leafs can afford to pay him triple what anyone else could.
But, as a Sens fan... i sure hope Ottawa can lure Chiarelli back to the fold and force Bryan Murray to retire before he dies.
As good as Chiarelli is he has made his share of mistakes in a Salary Cap world. The best bet is to Hire Babcock as your GM and then Step out of the way and let him put the rest of the puzzle together, know he wanted to be the highest paid coach, make him the highest paid GM. He certainly knows a lot of the coaches in the league and right now one of the smarter men around the league. leafs can afford to pay top dollar for everyone they hire ( outside the players ) as it doesn't count towards the cap. You could see a half dozen coaches fired if they make an early exit from the playoffs. not sure you'd want all 6 of them but sure there would be 1 or 2 that should at least get a look.
Babcock has been the visible face of an extremely well-run organization. I'm sure he has learned and experienced plenty during his time with Detroit... but I'd never bet on his being experienced/knowledgeable enough to pull the Leafs out of the gutter and build them into a contender.
That is exactly what Chiarelli did with the Bruins. Took them from the basement of their division, and made them Stanley Cup Champions.
I agree with you Oddmott. However, I am not 100% convinced Chiarelli would be accepted as the Leafs GM. The fans of the Leafs are jaded and ignorant (lack of knowledge) about what it takes to build a solid contending team. To be fair, if my team ownership lived through Harold Ballard and then the OTPP years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
Babcock as GM? He won't go near the Leafs. He'll re-sign with Detroit and watch what happens from there for a couple of years..Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MAC
One thing that is very clear (with me anyways) is that Shanahan is running the show. Even if he hires a 'General Manager', it will be in name only. That individual will not have the autonomy of the title - the buck will stop with Shanahan.
With that said, things could change this weekend with the draft lottery picks!
I would be shocked if Babcock or Chiarelli want to be apart of Toronto. The amount of negitive pressure put on by the fans and news agencies when they lose a game or two is more then any other team. Although if the money is there and you don't mind the constant abuse thrown at you every minute sure why not.
So it seems Babcock is a part of the Leaf organization.
http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/...ight-year-deal
I am shocked. I thought he wouldn't have touched this train wreck with a 25 ft pole.
50 million over 8 years seems to have changed his mind.
I love this.
Already have every Leafs fan on my facebook crowing about the 2016 stanley cup being theirs. Conveniently forgetting that Babcock was just one single piece of a master machine that is the Redwings' organization.
Just as the oilers will destroy McDavid, so too will the Maple Leafs destroy Babcock.
Book it.
babcock
p-a-r-a-d-e!!!!!
Delusions of grandeur must be a Toronto thing. Leafs, Liberals, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddmott
While a solid move by Shanahan, I foresee much mental anguish for Babcock.
You might as well have some kind of parade. You ain't going to have one for the cup anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeakyBoots
It's all about the money. " Show me the money " I'd bet that he won't be here long enough to even see a contending Leaf Team, let alone a Stanley Cup...
I think he sees it as a challenge. Hopefully it is a positive experience for him.
Sharon, I want some of the same stuff you've been smoking...
LOL see my signature
Ha! Goes to show what I know!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo
Babcock signing with the Leafs is a contradiction to what he has said publicly about what he was looking for. You can bet him and Shanahan will be peppered with questions as to whether this was all about money and nothing more because it sure looks like he led Buffalo to believe he was going there.
Buffalo has got the shaft this season LOL. All the hype about McDavid and now Babcock. haha
seems yesterday morning the leafs thought they where out of the Babcock running and where actually interviewing Guy Boucher for a second time with the intent of hiring him when Babcock phoned the leafs, a leaf exec stepped out of the interview and did the deal with Babcock and went back in and told Boucher the interview was over. all this around 11:00 am yesterday.
Babcock had gone to Ken Hollands house yesterday around 8:00 am either to see if wings would up there offer or to get some guidance on what to do,,,,,in the end it came down to money as Buffalo has a better shot of making the playoffs this year than the leafs.
Babcock will be lucky to get the leafs into the playoffs in the next few years.
what a back assward organizatiion though, as now they have to hire a GM. AT least the oilers got it right by hiring the GM and letting the GM hire the coach he wanted.
his hair will be turning color every game he coaches for the Leafs.
AND i'M A LEAF FAN.
I would think one of the conditions Babcock comes with is he gets a major say in what pieces the team acquires. With this move, whomever the Leafs put in as a GM, I think is going to be a figurehead only. I think the main decisions will be with Babcock and Shanahan.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MAC
Whether money was the motivating factor or not, Babcock comes into this situation with a lot of credit in the bank. He has proven himself as coach and leader. Many other good coaches have come into Toronto, only to leave town with their tails tucked between their legs. Will Babcock be one of them or will he pull a rabbit out of his hat? Toronto fans need to give him more than a few years to right this ship (I understand there were tools some on facebook stating the leafs are winning the cup in 2016) and relax and let the man do his job.
Dyth
i think one only needs to look at Tampa Bay, Stevie Y has been at the helm for roughly 5 seasons and has built a solid team, and I think if anyone thinks the leafs can do that in less time are only fooling themselves, hopefully they can make the playoffs sometime in the next few seasons and build the team up , i think the scouts they hire will be just as if not more important than the signing of Babcock.
Long way to go , I would say 2020 before they even think of contending for a top 4 playoff spot.
Top 4 by 2020? I think that extremely optimistic. The house that Conn Smythe built is rotted to the core. Getting a good developmental program alone is going to cost you two years.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MAC
Dyth, what I was referring to was the cup in 2016 quote, what I meant was be happy if they are even a top 4 contender in 5 years.
be interesting to see in the coming weeks how they align themselves for the draft and who they trade or release to free up money.
Don't see Toronto and Buffalo making any trades in the near future. :) :)
Big Mac,Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MAC
Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't taking you to task at all simply adding my comments to yours, it wasn't meant to be an argument. While I am a Habs fan, I am extremely interested to see how this will play out. While I am not a Leafs fan, I know the rivalry between our two teams should be better and the only way to see that happen is to have a better Leafs team that what is currently there.
As for trades, maybe the Leafs could get a used puckbag for Phaneuf and Nashville Ice team for Kessel (they are in better shape than he is LOL). All kidding aside, while trades are important to a team, I firmly believe in this day and age of the NHL, you have to develop your #1 star (or developing star). If a team wants to get rid of the guy they originally pegged as the team's future, it is usually for a reason (most often than not the reason isn't a talent issue).
Dyth
Agreed Dyth. I would be more than happy to get some first round draft pics for those 2 slugs and start developing a young team that hopefully can gel and play as a team. I pray to god the days of trading first round pics for Past their prime old
timers are long gone.
So in his press conference today, Babcock said that the Leafs are Canada's team. I suppose the other 5 teams don't count. I would say the Habs are Canada's team before the Leafs. Why you ask? Montreal is the oldest city in Canada with a NHL team in it, they were the last Canadian team to win the cup, the Habs are the oldest NHL team in Canada, I don't think I need to go on.
Montreal does not have the far reaching fan base as the Leafs, that is a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
It is a language thing, Montreal was the french team, english folks in Canada did not generally cheer for the french team (my mom is an exception). The Leafs are Canada's team when it comes down to fan base and cash flow.
Montreal has a lot of fans and is an older city but by no means do they have the same type of pull, good or bad, as the leafs, maybe that is why they can draw in players, not as much media BS.
Oh, and there are 6 other Canadian Teams, you forgot that Winnipeg is back.
No I didn't. Most people can't bring themselves to call the Oilers a NHL team. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Ha ha ha, how many NHL teams do we have then in total? 20?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dythbringer
It pains me to think that we have the distinct possibility of having 2 teams in the final and therefore a guarantee that the cup once again goes to a city where water will not freeze outside in the winter.
Don Cherry had a couple of things right on the money,last night,when he said the first thing Babcock will do is take the "C" away from Dion Phaneuf to take the pressure off the guy and if Phil Kessel shows up at training camp next year 20lbs. overweight,hasn't done a damn thing except golf all summer and shows up with his usual attitude,he'll be sent down until he smartens up. Well.....it's a start.
I heard that Babcock accepted the position in Toronto, not because of the money but because they guaranteed him April and May off.
Dick
Ever hear of a 'One-way' contract clause? It means you can't send them to the Farm Team. NHL or sit in the Press Box are your only options with Kessel if the Leafs are going to keep him.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
One way contract - I thought they can still be sent down, but they still get their NHL salary. Two way is NHL salary for time with the NHL time, minor league salary for the minors.
A buyout is always an option.
The thing is we don't know the specifics of Kessel's contract. For example, what if he shows up to training camp and doesn't make the Leafs? Does he have to clear waivers before joining the Marlies? Etc, etc, etc.
Kessel, even though he may not have the heart of some of the other guys, is still one of the highest scorers in the league, period.
He has had 30+ goals in 5 years so far in the league, he also has an average 0.78 points per game and a 0.88 points per game as a Leaf, even with the BS of this past year where he had 61 points in 82 games.
He is by far the best goal scorer of any player on the leafs, he has to be properly motivated to play.
When Carlyle was around he was playing, he had his down times but he was always in the lineup and always produced. The worst thing they could have done this past year was make players not want to play in Toronto, would you blame any of them?
Spott and Hordichuk destroy players, Spott was the Kitchener Rangers coach and wrecked that team before moving on, I am very happy he is not part of the group anymore. Hordichuk could not do anything with Florida and could not do anything in Toronto.
This past year was a hold over to get Babcock and build Shanahan's team, that is fine, but to throw away one of the best goal scorers in the game will bite them.
Yeah, you're right. The belief is that a player good enough to sign a one way should be good enough to play in the NHL. Kessel would be forced to sit before the Leafs ever thought of sending him down to the minors. Highly, highly, unlikely to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
If you're correct vis-a-vis the one way contract,then,if Kessel thinks he can play silly bugger with Babcock and Shanahan,he better think again. A player may be able to produce points,but,if it turns out he's a detriment to team development,he's done like a burnt dinner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo
I hope they sign up Mark Hunter as GM. He knows his stuff. Apparently they are considering it.
How many times is this now?
I hope the Leafs still fail and miss the playoffs for another decade.
He was hired as co -interim GM in 2014.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
but now:
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/T...136/story.html
Allow me to rephrase. :)
How many times has the franchise brought in a new "team" to rebuild the "team". How many times have the fans pinned their hopes, gotten excitedf by or on the new white knight/savior be it GM, coach, manager, etc.
same old same old
been there done that
Have danced this dance many times.
Shanahan and now Babcock are nothing new, just reiterations of the same old broken 45 record being played yet again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen
.....and Harold Ballard's ghost giggles again. LOL
How negative Mr Ben . :)
Just keeping it real :)
If they get impatient, they're doomed. If they stay the course, draft well (get lucky) and manage to be able to attract top talent there is hope in 3 or 4 years they'll be competitive. To win the Stanley Cup, however, without a Number 1 Center, top D-man and good goalie, highly unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBen