Waiver for a Hunt Camp

I own a camp used by my brother and a few good friends, all grown-ups and reasonable people and have never had any problems. But it occurs to me that some day god forbid we might have a catastrophic problem. Anything from an ATV crash or a firearm accident, falling out of a tree stand, or highly toxic chili. Maybe be I should have them sign something so that some widow wont rush to sue me out of anger or greed. I know a waiver cant remove all liability, and they can always sue, but it would help. What do you think and does anyone have a sample they would care to share?

Does your insurance not cover something like that? I think of it as if I went to my buddy's cottage for the weekend I wouldn't expect to sign a waiver before diving off the dock - would expect things like that to be in the cost of home and property insurance. Maybe worth giving your broker a dingle and run it by them

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Originally Posted by mbhunter

Does your insurance not cover something like that? I think of it as if I went to my buddy's cottage for the weekend I wouldn't expect to sign a waiver before diving off the dock - would expect things like that to be in the cost of home and property insurance. Maybe worth giving your broker a dingle and run it by them

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If that was true you wouldn't see on the back of amusement parks or parking lot tickets waivers of liability. I have no problem signing a waiver to protect someone from my own stupidity far too many greedy people out there and lawyers to support them.

Well, the first thing about waivers is that you can't contract yourself out of negligence, so they actually don't prevent anyone from suing you.

The second thing is that things like this are why people hire lawyers. Are you ready to hire a lawyer to draft your waiver? If not, don't bother.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Well, the first thing about waivers is that you can't contract yourself out of negligence, so they actually don't prevent anyone from suing you.

The second thing is that things like this are why people hire lawyers. Are you ready to hire a lawyer to draft your waiver? If not, don't bother.

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Two very, very good points.
One other question - if you're not negligent and something happens, can you be (successfully) sued?
Get liability insurance and the issue becomes someone else's problem.

I wouldn't invite people who are that stupid I only invite my personal friends..

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Originally Posted by mbmellis

I own a camp used by my brother and a few good friends, all grown-ups and reasonable people and have never had any problems. But it occurs to me that some day god forbid we might have a catastrophic problem. Anything from an ATV crash or a firearm accident, falling out of a tree stand, or highly toxic chili. Maybe be I should have them sign something so that some widow wont rush to sue me out of anger or greed. I know a waiver cant remove all liability, and they can always sue, but it would help. What do you think and does anyone have a sample they would care to share?

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I wouldn't invite people who are that stupid I only invite my personal friends..

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You still should have insurance.

We made sure that we had insurance and anyone who hunted with us had an OFAH membership in the club as a minimum to have insurance while they hunt.

Personal friends, even good ones, can sue you all the same.

Money changes people. You may have a best friend,but,if something happens,they'll turn on you in a heartbeat once the ambulance chasers get a hold of it. Thankfully,sueing someone in this country isn't as easy as in the US. Our civil law system is vastly different with many variables that can easily come back to bite the complainant in the arse. In Canada,it's entirely possible to win the battles then lose the war and be on the hook for legal fees which can quickly outpace any financial award. My advice is to have a liability insurance policy with a specific rider for the camp. A good insurance agent can help with accurate specifics. They may be able to couple it with your existing home owners policy for a sizeable discount on premiums.

I have know my best friend since we were in grade 11 in NB over 30 years. I know there have probably been dozens of times I could technically have sued him or he probably could have sued me.

Mind ya we have thought of it and maybe split the money later. ;)

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Originally Posted by Fox

You still should have insurance.

We made sure that we had insurance and anyone who hunted with us had an OFAH membership in the club as a minimum to have insurance while they hunt.

Personal friends, even good ones, can sue you all the same.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I have know my best friend since we were in grade 11 in NB over 30 years. I know there have probably been dozens of times I could technically have sued him or he probably could have sued me.

Mind ya we have thought of it and maybe split the money later. ;)

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Good, that is a great, but as trimmer stated, money changes things.

Insurance just covers your butt and recreational property liability insurance is really cheap.

We camp on crown land I wonder if I could sue the Liberal Government if I get hurt doing something stupid? ;) :moose:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Good, that is a great, but as trimmer stated, money changes things.

Insurance just covers your butt and recreational property liability insurance is really cheap.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

We camp on crown land I wonder if I could sue the Liberal Government if I get hurt doing something stupid? ;) :moose:

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I'm sure many have tried already think that's why simcoe county forest requires OFHA membership to hunt their properties.

Our camp has a group leader. We have a meeting in the spring go over any issues. Before hunt starts in the fall go over all rules in our camp, out in the field etc. ATV and helmets, firearm storage and handling etc. We are all present and agree to terms. Keeps everyone inline and on the same page. If you don't like what is mutually agreed upon than you aren't invited in for hunt and any $$$ returned. We all must have OFAH membership for insurance purposes.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I have know my best friend since we were in grade 11 in NB over 30 years. I know there have probably been dozens of times I could technically have sued him or he probably could have sued me.

Mind ya we have thought of it and maybe split the money later. ;)

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Thats well and good, but what if his insurance company decides to sue you, despite what he says?

To the OP, I would forget the idea of a waiver, as im not sure it would stand up in court, and just make it mandatory for everyone at the camp to have insurance (like that the OFAH provides, which specifically handles hunting/fishing/outdoors related activities.

like blasted_saber stated it may not be your friends or their spouse that decides to sue you but the insurance company that comes after you. I know of 2 separate incidents where people where at a friend's party had a few drinks and dived into the pools hurting themselves. Neither person went after the owners but the insurance companies did and the one person lost everything.

Unfortunately these are the times we live in so I get why somebody may want this. We have a basic waiver for our youth day but like originally posted above it doesn't do a whole lot to stop anybody from coming after us anyways.

I think you will find this is more of an Ontario thing I know you wouldn't be discussing this in NB or NS. It's Kinda like people in Toronto would rarely get friends to help them say put up a new roof on their house.

Ontario long ago lost the trust factor.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I think you will find this is more of an Ontario thing I know you wouldn't be discussing this in NB or NS. It's Kinda like people in Toronto would rarely get friends to help them say put up a new roof on their house.

Ontario long ago lost the trust factor.

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That's a ridiculous generalization. Insurance companies don't decide "this is an Ontario thing". Your point about Ontario losing trust really has nothing to do with insurance, waivers or covering your a s s. It's just the smart thing to do. Regardless of where you live, you should make sure you are appropriately covered in the event of an accident or legal event.

FishFrenzy

I disagree 100%. At one time neighbours and friends helped each other you rarley ever see that in Ontario but it still goes on in NS and NB. Friends regualry help each other. Nothing like getting a bunch of beer and building a deck or barn. Ontario has lost it's way. Maybe the Maritimes are just foolish or maybe we trust each other more.

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Originally Posted by FishFrenzy

That's a ridiculous generalization. Insurance companies don't decide "this is an Ontario thing". Your point about Ontario losing trust really has nothing to do with insurance, waivers or covering your a s s. It's just the smart thing to do. Regardless of where you live, you should make sure you are appropriately covered in the event of an accident or legal event.

FishFrenzy

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I disagree 100%. At one time neighbours and friends helped each other you rarley ever see that in Ontario but it still goes on in NS and NB. Friends regualry help each other. Nothing like getting a bunch of beer and building a deck or barn. Ontario has lost it's way. Maybe the Maritimes are just foolish or maybe we trust each other more.

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I don't understand your point... my friends and I help each other out all the time. We're talking about liability and insurance, what are you talking about? How does living in Ontario or NS or NB differ in terms of liability and insurance companies choosing to sue regardless of how your friends or their families feel? We're on the topic of waivers and their inability to absolve you from liability with insurance.

FishFrenzy

We don't sue if someone stubs their toe while helping put up a roof. God if I was to start suing people I would be a multi millionaire. When I asked the farmers around my area if they wanted to have a waiver for me to hunt on their properties even they think your nuts. Maybe I'm old fashion but people I know don't go around suing everyone. But you do here about it in Toronto. Case in point a co-worker who use to live in Toronto let a friend stay over while her house was being painted the friend tripped while going to the washroom next thing you know a lawsuit. Obviously not much of a friend.

If a farmer around my area even thought he might need you to sign a wavier in my area he wouldn't even let you in the driveway on his property. Hell I still trust my friends to borrow my equipment without me home and they are the same.

Part of the problem today is people are always looking for a reason to sue especially in Ontario.

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Originally Posted by FishFrenzy

I don't understand your point... my friends and I help each other out all the time. We're talking about liability and insurance, what are you talking about? How does living in Ontario or NS or NB differ in terms of liability and insurance companies choosing to sue regardless of how your friends or their families feel? We're on the topic of waivers and their inability to absolve you from liability with insurance.

FishFrenzy

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I'm glad I don't live in the "world" as some posters here.
Hunt camp rules spelled out.
Hunt camp waivers.
I would quit hunting if any of this was mentioned by the guys I hunt with.

Exactly. If you can't trust the guy's your hunting with then maybe you shouldn't be hunting with them.

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Originally Posted by Blue Lk

I'm glad I don't live in the "world" as some posters here.
Hunt camp rules spelled out.
Hunt camp waivers.
I would quit hunting if any of this was mentioned by the guys I hunt with.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

Part of the problem today is people are always looking for a reason to sue especially in Ontario.

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This is simply horse pucky.

The risk for hunt camps is not that someone will slip and fall or have some kind of minor accident and then sue because they exist only in GW's fertile imagination. The risk is that someone will be shot or suffer a serious accident that will either leave their family without a breadwinner or leave them unable to work. Those are real risks, with serious liabilities, where if you don't have insurance or you are flat-out negligent, you are going to be up the creek.

People ignore these things because the risks are small, and then scoff and say they wouldn't hunt with anyone they didn't trust. Guess how many of the people who end up involved in shooting accidents said the same thing? Every single one of them. I can say that without fear because "it's not a problem" is a negligent attitude, and negligence doesn't arise in a vacuum. The OP's question is serious and ought not to be scoffed at.

I'm going to suggest, again, that waivers are meaningless here. You need to be insured.

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Originally Posted by welsh

This is simply horse pucky.

The risk for hunt camps is not that someone will slip and fall or have some kind of minor accident and then sue because they exist only in GW's fertile imagination. The risk is that someone will be shot or suffer a serious accident that will either leave their family without a breadwinner or leave them unable to work. Those are real risks, with serious liabilities, where if you don't have insurance or you are flat-out negligent, you are going to be up the creek.

People ignore these things because the risks are small, and then scoff and say they wouldn't hunt with anyone they didn't trust. Guess how many of the people who end up involved in shooting accidents said the same thing? Every single one of them. I can say that without fear because "it's not a problem" is a negligent attitude, and negligence doesn't arise in a vacuum. The OP's question is serious and ought not to be scoffed at.

I'm going to suggest, again, that waivers are meaningless here. You need to be insured.

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Exactly...

The whole point is, it's not about the guys, but rather the insurance companies deciding to come after you. I'm confident the guys I hunt with wouldn't pursue legal action - their wives / spouses / insurance companies - I'm not sure about about. Waivers don't do anything, insurance covers you.

Regardless of who you hunt with, you are at risk if someone is seriously injured or dies. Guys here are looking at the worst case scenario and making sure they're covered. This is the entire reason the OFAH offers insurance - to protect us and our sport.

FishFrenzy

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Originally Posted by Blue Lk

I'm glad I don't live in the "world" as some posters here.
Hunt camp rules spelled out.
Hunt camp waivers.
I would quit hunting if any of this was mentioned by the guys I hunt with.

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Yes - but insurance is a good idea.

I'd actually go as far as to say, having people sign a waiver, the entity that created the waiver (person/group) is actually taking a higher level of identified responsibility.

Waivers generally mean jack squat. They don't cover you when you are negligent. Insurance covers you when you are negligent. People always say, there are no accidents...that means someone was negligent at some point. Just a matter of it being proved.

I hate insurance and waivers (at least talking about it). I've spent much time discussing it as I've been involved with lots of organization of bike races and rides. I've started many rides that began very informally with close friends that ballooned to be rather popular with word of mouth getting 75+ people. At that point I needed to start setting rules and organizing and that put me at risk.

From what I've gathered over the past years goes by the following...

1) Am I in a situation of putting someone else at risk and do I felt that warrants me covering my butt.

2) Am I putting myself in a leadership role where people will be depending on my guidance and expertise.

Generally friends going out, in an informal manner, like hunting don't need to worry about #2 much. #1 hopefully not either, but that is probably where OFAH insurance comes into play in the event an 'accident' happens.

Most people aren't worried if a buddy cuts himself, or even brakes an arm. And rightfully so. Even most strangers aren't going to pursue any legal action. Its when something catastrophic happens, like permanent disability/death, that can change people or more so if a 3rd party is responsible for things like long term disability, they'll be looking for who ever was negligent to cover this instead. However, as a person, as long as you aren't negligent and aren't putting yourself in an obvious position of responsibility over other peoples safety, you are generally pretty safe on the grand scheme of things.

In saying all this, consult a lawyer, in person for the 'best' answer. You won't get proper legal advice on an online forum. I was actually told by my friend, an insurance litigation lawyer, that giving advice like this nulls his malpractice insurance. The rest of us are just internet heros.

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Originally Posted by Blue Lk

I'm glad I don't live in the "world" as some posters here.
Hunt camp rules spelled out.
Hunt camp waivers.
I would quit hunting if any of this was mentioned by the guys I hunt with.

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When I opened this thread and began reading, my first thought was WTF????

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Originally Posted by Blue Lk

I'm glad I don't live in the "world" as some posters here.
Hunt camp rules spelled out.
Hunt camp waivers.
I would quit hunting if any of this was mentioned by the guys I hunt with.

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That's fine, but when you hear of someone accidentally getting shot or injured is it really an accident or is it an assumption that everyone is on the same page? Example like at Epps in Orillia a few years back. In hunter/firearm training you are told to treat a firearm as it's loaded. Only point at a safe place. Never hand over a loaded firearm to anyone, always unload unlock, open, the chamber. Well that one day fella brought in a gun to the gunsmith telling him his gun misfired, handed it over but forgot to tell him the round was still in the chamber. Bang! Unsafe practise & bad habits come about but sometimes you have to be reminded as well as others. Other examples are just like some posters here on the forum and legitimate questions that some will scoff at. Some people need to be told or reminded that's all. I want to come home to my family & I hope everyone else does at the end of their hunt.

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Originally Posted by robster

I want to come home to my family & I hope everyone else does at the end of their hunt.

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That's the point..it's when you don't come home or come home badly broken; then your loved ones want someone to be held responsible/accountable....how do you protect yourself from that eventuality ?

Being held accountable by law is one thing. Being sued because your buddy shot his toe off is another.

I fell out of my tree stand a few years ago. Wonder who I can sue

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I fell out of my tree stand a few years ago. Wonder who I can sue

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sue a fall arrest company. There's got to be one out there that does not have it written on the tag "you must wear it for it to work"

or you could sue the landowner for not cutting the tree down before you got there.

If you own a house than it's more than likely you have personal liability insurance as part of your homeowners policy. This is usaully not limited to your property but goes with you where ever you go including hunting and fishing. OFAH insurance only kicks in after all other avenues of insurance are exhausted so the risk of them ever having to pay a claim is very low. If you're buying an OFAH membership to support their mandates then have at 'er. If you're buying it for the insurance then you're likely wasting your money.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

That's the point..it's when you don't come home or come home badly broken; then your loved ones want someone to be help responsible/accountable....how do you protect yourself from that eventuality ?

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That is the point. We have high quality guys and a long track record of no problems, but sooner or later.... It is not the guys in the crew, but their insurance companies or a widow that worry me. Yes we have insurance. Yes you can't waive liability for negligence. Yes you can always be sued. And yes waivers seem to mean something anyway. God knows I have signed enough of them over the years. I was really just hoping to see a few examples, not to debate if we should or shouldn't have them.

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Originally Posted by FishFrenzy

Exactly...

The whole point is, it's not about the guys, but rather the insurance companies deciding to come after you. I'm confident the guys I hunt with wouldn't pursue legal action - their wives / spouses / insurance companies - I'm not sure about about. Waivers don't do anything, insurance covers you.

Regardless of who you hunt with, you are at risk if someone is seriously injured or dies. Guys here are looking at the worst case scenario and making sure they're covered. This is the entire reason the OFAH offers insurance - to protect us and our sport. FishFrenzy

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Hooray! Someone who understands the potential consequences of an accident. Our camp used to have guests sign a waiver that absolved them of any liability in the case of accident. One of our members has a son that is a lawyer, so we asked him about the validity of our waiver. We were told it was almost useless as far as protecting us from a law suit. We then switched to private liability insurance, but after a few years the costs started to skyrocket. At that point we made all club members become OFAH members, which allowed us to receive primary liability insurance. This differs from the secondary insurance that is included with individual OFAH memberships.

I'll reiterate what many have already said on the subject. It isn't necessarily a guest or their immediate families that will sue, but rather their insurance company if a claim is paid out on their behalf because of a mishap at your camp. The example I use to explain to our members is this; a guest (or member) is leaving camp to go moose hunting one October morning, and he slips on the frosty steps of our deck, hitting his head, which leads to his death. His family has no intention of suing, knowing it was an unfortunate accident, but his life insurance company, which had to pay out $1,000,000 on his death, is looking to recover their costs. The camp owners will surely be sued for recovery costs, and even if absolved, will be left with a hefty legal bill.

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Originally Posted by TPM

If you own a house than it's more than likely you have personal liability insurance as part of your homeowners policy. This is usaully not limited to your property but goes with you where ever you go including hunting and fishing. OFAH insurance only kicks in after all other avenues of insurance are exhausted so the risk of them ever having to pay a claim is very low. If you're buying an OFAH membership to support their mandates then have at 'er. If you're buying it for the insurance then you're likely wasting your money.

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That's correct. As I mentioned in my earlier post, insurance provided with an individual OFAH membership is secondary insurance, which means it only comes into effect once all other sources (ie homeowner's insurance) is exhausted. On the other hand, if you have club insurance, it is primary insurance, meaning it is the first coverage used in a libelous situation.

The following is a disclaimer copied from rec.climbing (no idea of it's original source), and makes fun reading, but the sentiments equally apply. Maybe I'll just re write it for hunting.

WARNING!!

ALL INDIVIDUALS USING, REFERRING TO, TALKING ABOUT, OR THINKING ABOUT THIS TOPO MUST READ THIS!!!

This inaccurate topo is based on dim recollections, half-baked guesses, gossip, blind speculation, and outright lies. In NO WAY does it tell the full story. You would probably be better off just trying to find your own way up the mountain, than you would be if you used this topo. But that statement in no way implies that I am in any way responsible if you don't use the topo, and something bad happens anyway.

Nature is unpredictable and unsafe. Mountains are dangerous. Many books have been written about these dangers, and there's no way I can even list them all here, let alone discussing how to reduce risk from these dangers. Read the books.

The area depicted by this topo is covered in steep terrain with loose, slippery and unstable footing. The weather can make matters worse. Sheer drops are everywhere. You may fall, be injured or die. There are hidden holes. You could break your leg. There are overhanging outcroppings and low-growing tree branches where you could bump your head. There are wild animals, which may be vicious, poisonous, hungry or carriers of dread diseases. These may include poisonous amphibians, reptiles, and insects; insects to which you have allergies, or whose multiple stings can cause anaphylactic shock; mammals which may include skunks, badgers, marmots, lions, tigers, and bears; predatory birds, and all other manner of beasts. Plants can be poisonous as well, and even when not poisonous, can inflict serious injury like a sharp stick in the eye. Mushrooms growing in this area are very likely extremely poisonous. This topo, and the author of this topo, will not do anything to protect you from any of this. I do not inspect, supervise or maintain the ground, rocks, cliffs, wildlife, vegetation
or other features, natural or otherwise.

Real dangers are present even on approach trails. Trails are not sidewalks, and folks have died and been seriously injured even on sidewalks when they have tripped on cracked concrete, plunged into meter boxes with missing covers, been mugged, hit by cars, had pianos fall on them... Trails can be, and are, steep, slippery and dangerous. Trail features made or enhanced by humans, such as bridges, steps, walls and railings (if any) can break, collapse, or otherwise fail catastrophically at any time. I don't promise to inspect, supervise or maintain them in any way. They may be negligently constructed or repaired. Some trails in the area are only maintained by Nelson Bighorn Sheep, who have little regard for human life or human safety, or any humans whatsoever. In summary, trails are unsafe, period. Live with it or stay away.

Stay on the trails whenever possible. The terrain, in addition to being dangerous, is surprisingly complex. You may get lost. You probably WILL get lost. The chances of getting lost multiply geometrically after the sun goes down, due to poor visibility. The sun goes down at least once a day in this area. Not to say that you won't get lost during daylight hours. In either event, carry a flashlight, extra bulb and batteries, compass, GPS, maps, altimeter, cellular phone, food, water, matches and first aid supplies at all times. My advising you of this does not mean there are not other things you should be carrying. Carry them as well, and know how to use them. I am not responsible for the consequences if you fail to heed this advice. In fact, I am not responsible for the consequences even if you DO heed this advice, nor am I responsible if you carry so much stuff along that you end up moving so slowly that you get benighted. Tough luck.

Rocks and other objects can, and probably will, fall from the cliffs. They can tumble down slopes. This can happen naturally, or be caused by people above you, such as climbers. Rocks of all sizes, including huge boulders, can shift, move or fall with no warning. If you don't believe me check out the talus slopes at the base of some of the rock walls. They didn't just grow there. Use of helmets is advised for anyone approaching the rock formations. In fact, you shouldn't really be approaching the rock formations anyway. That is a really stupid thing to do. If you do decide to approach the formations, shoulder pads, knee pads, elbow pads, athletic cups and supporters and other body armor may be handy as well as helmets. These items can be purchased or rented from mountaineering shops and athletic supply stores. They won't save you if you get hit by or scrape against something big or on another part of your body. A whole rock formation might collapse on you and squash you like a bug. Don't think it can't happen. It does, and it probably will.

Weather can be dangerous, regardless of the forecast. Be prepared with extra clothing, including rain gear. Hypothermia, heat stroke, dehydration, frostbite, lightning, ice and snow, runoff from rainstorms, flashfloods, etc. can kill you. Rain can turn easy terrain into a deathtrap, can drown you if you're looking up into the sky with your mouth open, and vastly decreases traction on pavement. Snow is even worse, the hazards ranging from snowball fight injuries to avalanches.

If you scramble in high places (scrambling is moving over terrain steep enough to use your hands) without proper experience, training and equipment, or allow children to do so, you are making a terrible mistake. Even if you know what you're doing and are the most experienced and safest climber the world has ever known, you are still making a terrible mistake: lots of things can and do go wrong and you may be injured or die. It happens all the time.

Furthermore, scrambling amongst the huge boulders in this canyon, even without exposure of high places, can result in serious physical and/or emotional injury, or death. This area, and this route, are not provided with any rangers or security personnel on any regular basis. The other people in the area, including other visitors, USFS employees, foreign agents, biologists and nature freaks, terrorists and anyone else who might sneak in, may be stupid, reckless, a religious fanatic, or otherwise dangerous. They may be mentally ill, criminally insane, drunk, using illegal drugs and/or armed with anything from nail clippers to deadly weapons and ready to use them. I'm not going to do anything about that. I refuse to take responsibility.

Excessive consumption of alcohol, use of prescription drugs, over-the-counter medications, and/or controlled substances while frequenting this area can and probably will affect your mental state, alertness, and decision-making abilities, and could make an already dangerous situation even worse. Even hyperventilation or spinning around rapidly and repeatedly can affect your equilibrium to the point that even on a flat paved surface you may fall and injure yourself. Even abstinence from consciousness-altering substances and actions won't protect you from the actions of others under the influence of such substances or actions. That's your problem, and yours alone. Not my fault.

The driveways, freeways, highways, streets, alleys, back roads and unimproved 4WD tracks leading to this area kill hundreds of folks each year. Many of these fatalities are folks who aren't even on their way to this canyon, who in fact have never heard of this canyon, but are simply innocent victims. Not so you. You have been warned. You could get killed driving to the trailhead. Wearing your seatbelt tightly fastened with the lap belt low across your waist improves your chances of survival, in most cases (except that one steep section of road) but does not and cannot guarantee your safety. You might die before ever stepping out of your vehicle at the trailhead, or on the way home. It can happen any time. If you think you are immune from this kind of thing, you're fooling yourself.

This is not a sterile environment. Bacteria, viruses, protozoa, protoviruses, fungi and other forms of life and protolife which may or may not be currently included in either the plant or animal kingdom are capable of causing you serious bodily harm, illness, or death. These kinds of biological agents are both endemic in the area or present in the plant and animal populations; and are also capable of being carried or transmitted by your climbing partners and travelling companions. I'm not going to take responsibility for this, either. My advice for you to treat drinking water, wash your hands before and after going to the bathroom and before eating, to not breathe hunta-virus-contaminated dust, and to not indulge in unprotected sex in this area, in no way obligates me to be responsible for the consequences if you fail to do so, nor does it mean that even if you DO take these precautions and something happens anyway, that I am to blame. Not so. Forget it. Nada. Negativo.

If you climb, you may die or be seriously injured. And the longer you climb the greater your risk of bad luck, which may or may not be compounded by hubris, catching up to you. This is true whether you are experienced or not, trained or not, and equipped or not, though training, experience and equipment may help. It's a fact, climbing is extremely dangerous. If you don't like it, stay at home. You really shouldn't be doing it anyway. I do not provide supervision or instruction. I am not responsible for, and do not inspect or maintain, climbing anchors (including bolts, pitons, slings, trees, etc.) As far as I know, any of them can and probably will suddenly fail without warning and send you plunging to your death with a bloodcurdling scream, likely pulling your partner to his or her doom as well. There are countless tons of loose rock ready to be dislodged and fall on you or someone else. There are any number of inobvious, extremely and unusually dangerous conditions existing on and around the rocks, and elsewhere in the canyon. I probably don't know about any specific hazard, but even if I do, don't expect this topo or its author to try to warn you. You're on your own.

We won't even begin to discuss rappelling. If you are thinking of travelling here for the express purpose of rappelling, do us all a favor: Just take a nice nap in the fast lane of an interstate truck route. But be advised that, if you do, I am in no way responsible for the consequences of that, either.

Furthermore, the fact that I'm not trying to stop you from being in this area in no way implies, nor should it be inferred, that I approve, recommend, advocate, or otherwise in any way affirm that such action on your part is anything but incredibly stupid.

Rescue services are not provided by anyone near this climb, and may not be available quickly or at all. In fact, if anything really serious happens to you in this area, you'll probably be dead before word ever reaches civilization. Local rescue squads may not be equipped for or trained in mountain rescue. They probably won't be. If you are lucky enough to have somebody try to rescue you or treat your injuries, they will probably be incompetent or worse. This includes doctors and hospitals. I assume no responsibility. Also, if you decide to participate in a rescue of some other unfortunate, that's your choice. Don't do it unless you are willing to assume all risks, and don't blame me when it goes bad and you end up getting yourself sued in the process.

By using, or even just looking at this topo, you are agreeing that I owe you no duty of care or any other duty, you agree to release me, my relatives, heirs, dependents, and anyone else I care to name, now and forevermore, from any and all claims of liability, even though my actions may be grossly negligent and/or be construed as reckless endangerment, manslaughter, or other misconduct up to and including premeditated murder. By consulting this topo, you agree to waive forever any rights that you, your partners, dependents, heirs, inlaws, and others known or unknown to you may have, to legal compensation resulting from anything that has anything to do with this topo, including but in no way limited to paper cuts from the edge of the topo itself. If you try to sue me in spite of all this, you agree to pay my lawyers fees regardless of the outcome of the suit, and you expressely agree to re-imburse me for any loss or injury, be it financial, physical, emotional, or imagined, which I may experience as a result of such lawsuit.

I promise you nothing. I do not and will not even try to keep the area safe for any purpose. The area is NOT safe for any purpose. This is no joke. I won't even try to warn you about any dangerous or hazardous condition, whether I know about it or not. If I do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean I will try to warn you about anything else. If I do make an effort to fix an unsafe condition, I may not try to correct any others, and I may actually make matters worse! I may have done things in the area that are unwise and dangerous. I probably did, but I don't remember. Sorry, I'm neither competent nor responsible. The topo gives you bad advice. Don't listen. Or do listen. It's your choice, but you face the consequences either way, whatever they may be.

In short, CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK. If you, or your heirs, relatives, dependents or others known or unknown to you; your partner or your partners heirs, relatives, dependents, or others known or unknown to you OR your partner, are the slimy kind of lawyer-touting parasites who would try to sue the author of a topo, If you can't take responsibility for your own decisions, knowledge, routefinding and plain dumb bad luck, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay far far away from this route and this canyon, give up climbing, and die of some completely natural, painful, and slowly progressive disease.

Thank you, climb safe, and have fun!

Well it was crown land and technically crown land belongs to everyone via the government. Since I was hunting and it was in a year that I was a member of this forum that means every hunter on here that year is technically responsible. So each of you owe me say 2000.00. Should be fair. But tell ya all what I will settle for a few game cameras, maybe a helmet for my son (we don't want his head to get banged up he might behave more like me. ;) ) and few flats of beer should be all good. :)

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Originally Posted by oaknut

sue a fall arrest company. There's got to be one out there that does not have it written on the tag "you must wear it for it to work"

or you could sue the landowner for not cutting the tree down before you got there.

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Isn't there, also, a scenario where the government steps in to sue on behalf of a minor? (I had a niece who was bit in the face by a dog and IIRC the government sued the dog owner and put the award into trust until she turned 18 - CORRECTION! not true, her mother instigated the litigation!)

I was bit by a large dog when I was a child I think I was around 10 or 11. We never sued the owners they were friends of ours. The dog had gotten lose and attacked two of us while we were playing, but like I said you rarely ever hear of talk like that in the Maritimes it is an Ontario thing.

If I was to actually sue someone every time something happaned (which I probably could) I would never have to work again and trust me I would be a multi millionair.

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Originally Posted by Wahoo

Isn't there, also, a scenario where the government steps in to sue on behalf of a minor? (I had a niece who was bit in the face by a dog and IIRC the government sued the dog owner and put the award into trust until she turned 18)

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I was bit by a large dog when I was a child I think I was around 10 or 11. We never sued the owners they were friends of ours. The dog had gotten lose and attacked two of us while we were playing, but like I said you rarely ever hear of talk like that in the Maritimes it is an Ontario thing.

If I was to actually sue someone every time something happaned (which I probably could) I would never have to work again and trust me I would be a multi millionair.

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GW, you seem to be missing the point that several people have made. Many lawsuits aren't the result of individuals suing, but rather insurance companies trying to recupe the money they had to pay out on someone's behalf. Doesn't matter where you live in Canada.

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Originally Posted by mbmellis

That is the point. We have high quality guys and a long track record of no problems, but sooner or later.... It is not the guys in the crew, but their insurance companies or a widow that worry me. Yes we have insurance. Yes you can't waive liability for negligence. Yes you can always be sued. And yes waivers seem to mean something anyway. God knows I have signed enough of them over the years. I was really just hoping to see a few examples, not to debate if we should or shouldn't have them.

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Re your request for examples, I'll repeat my earlier suggestion: if you're serious about protecting yourself, hire a real lawyer.

I've never regretted paying a lawyer to do anything I needed done.

Can sure tell who (else) lives in Northern Ontario on this thread, even before looking at locations.

The only time I can see the insurance company going after someone then is if somebody was killed.

Point I am making is these incidents rarely happen in the Maritimes it is an Ontario thing. Just got off the phone and my Dad couldn't even believe it.

My cousin was in a hunting accident this winter another hunter didn't see him (actually a friend) pellets landed in front of him one richot and hit him behind the eye. Nobody is being sued. Not a single person. The pellet is still lodged behind his eye near the optic nerve.

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Originally Posted by delmer

GW, you seem to be missing the point that several people have made. Many lawsuits aren't the result of individuals suing, but rather insurance companies trying to recupe the money they had to pay out on someone's behalf. Doesn't matter where you live in Canada.

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As I said if I had sued every time I had the legal right believe me when I say I would very easily be a multi millionair and that isn't close to being a joke.

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Originally Posted by delmer

GW, you seem to be missing the point that several people have made. Many lawsuits aren't the result of individuals suing, but rather insurance companies trying to recupe the money they had to pay out on someone's behalf. Doesn't matter where you live in Canada.

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Delmer I forgot to add my cousin is getting compensation for loss in one eye by his insurance company and nobody is being sued.

That would be because insurance companies don't automatically sue. Again, it has nothing to do with where you live.

And by the way, if you'd sued every time you thought you had the right to, you wouldn't be a millionaire. You'd be bankrupt from paying costs.

To give you an idea of what a "Use at your Own Risk" waiver form looks like when a lawyer and insurance company draft it up.....read thru this one done up for using a Mountain Bike....baffles the mind what is required to avoid litigation....

http://www.oasisinsurance.ca/pdf/imba_canada_waiver.pdf