Printable View
Big Game Blood Trackers Ontario (BGBTO) Presents:
An Introductory Seminar and Field Workshop about Using Trained Tracking Dogs to Find Wounded Big Game.
When: Saturday, July 18th to Sunday, July 19th 2015
Where: Peterborough (Saturday), Bethany (Sunday)
Cost: Pre-registration only -- by July 3rd -- $40.00 (or $25.00 for one day)
For more information, the official flyer and registration form / waiver, please visit us at http://biggamesearchon.com/
Going to have to check schedules but this sounds like a great weekend.
Agree...try to see if I can make at least one of the days....see a lot of big names in the blood tracking world on the presenters list
My cousin back in Europe is into blood tracking - here is a clip of his latest addition to the pack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP7cyob_d08
Cool vid. What a 'clever' puppy. Nagyon szep kis kutya. Fog meg!
I have to ask....with the regulations saying your tracking dogs must be leashed.....what kind of "training" is being taught ?
I've been using dogs ( RedBone's/ Beagles) to track wounded game for years. The dogs natural instinct is to track and never thought that I needed to train them, especially if they are leashed and there is no requirement to call them off the kill etc.
What to these course teach ?
Leashed blood tracking is a team activity -- handler and dog. So much of the training is of the handler. If your dog is a "natural" much of the training is slowing them down, also learning to appreciate the true trail and not to be distracted by the more recent scents that cross the true tracking line. Learning to understand what you are seeing, be it the brush damage or the colour of the blood or where it lies so that you can better predict what lies in front of you. You learn to read your dog and your dog learns to work. It isn't about enjoying everything in his path but holding to task because there's nothing better than exercising his nose and pleasing his master. My youngest loves to follow a trail. He's disappointed when he finds the game because that means it's over.
And just to comment on something you said -- if you and your dog are assisting another hunter, then you DO have to call them off the kill.
Thanks for posting this, I am signed up. Great opportunity. Anybody else?
If I'm on one end of the lead...and he's 6' away on a leash....a simple heal will do to stop him.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. in TO
You'll have to give us an after action report, I'm still curious as to what they will be teaching you about handling the dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by marysburg
I love watching a good dog on a hot trail is a fabulous experience.
I think that's it right there Mike. These dogs are expected to stay on the same old, cold, difficult line for as long as it takes...passing over fresh, hot tracks in order to recover the wounded animal. Not to run the hottest track they can find once they run into difficulty with the old line. A different story to bring a dog to a track left by a bow shot deer a day or two later after a rainfall, than taking a hound to a track 20 minutes after it was shot with a 30-06.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Also, the 2nd day of the agenda shows a lot of work on understanding by looking at sign, how the site of hit can be determined and how that will affect the track.
Very cool stuff, which attracts specialists in this art, and has developed many dog breeds which specialize in it....for good reason.
The standard tracking lead is 20 to 30 feet. That distance teaches trackers one of the most important rules -- trust your dog. It needs to be able to range further than a standard leash.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Can you imagine using a 20' lead on a tracking dog going thru thick brush...LOL....in all the years I have done this, I have never had a dog track a deer across an open area....they ALWAYS head back into the thickest meanest nasty bush once they are hit. You walk in with a dog, on a 20' lead, tracking a blood trail and 2' into the bush you'd be so tangled up the effort would be futile.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. in TO
To be upfront, because we are in a MWU were dogs have always been allowed, we only use the leash on the dogs to control them until they're on the actual trail we want them to follow. Once they are on track, we rely on their instincts and set them free and then follow. It's worked to our success for over 20 yrs and our 'find' rate is probably close to 80%...
The course sounds like they aren't teaching the dogs anything, just providing the handlers some insight into how it all works and how to guide the dog to the trail you want him to follow. It's not difficult, but if you don't have a mentor to teach you, a course like this would be beneficial.
For the cost it should be interesting, so I like to hear some feedback after.
Agree with MP that the 20 ft leash is not going to work in the thick stuff - a 5 foot tangles enough as it is.
In terms of the tracking leash, it is not a question of whether it will work....it is the law, and has been used very successfully for many years in the north east US where the bush is just as thick (if not thicker) than our bush. Sure it's probably not optimal, but it's mandatory. There are recommendations to use solid core rope (like climbing rope) since it snakes through the the bush and is less likely to whip around saplings etc.
I don't know of any dog training seminar where they expect to teach the dog much. The intention is to give the handler knowledge of a training process for them to go home and work toward. Also, help work through any specific training difficulty a handler may be going through with their dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
From what you describe, this is so much more than what you have been doing with your dogs...again this is training/handling dogs to track very old/cold lines in a very controlled and methodical manner which allows for consistent results over many very challenging tracking scenarios. Also, teaches the handler how to identify clues on how the animal has been hit by using evidence at the hit site. These two areas lead to a tracking team (dog and handler) which can be called upon when Rover wouldn't cut it.
If you're interested, here are a few sites with better information than I can provide:
http://www.unitedbloodtrackers.org/
http://deersearch.org/
http://born-to-track.com/
One of the nicest leads available is the Permatack. It is sold on the UBT website. I have two. I even had short walking leashes made from the stuff. Looks and feels almost like leather. Super strong - used in the horse world for tack. Wipes clean and doesn't get hung up in the bush. I've had it slide through thick thorny brambles with ease.
I'm not so concerned with the lead getting caught on brush - my concern is that the handler has to go everywhere the dog goes - on the same side of every try and below ever branch that the dog does - or let go of the lead an catch it on the other side. My dogs go through stuff that a guy cannot walk through - most of the dirty stuff is balsam or spruce, or in cut over areas, poplar and soft maple whippy as we call it.
Oh don't forget the prickly ash..my personal fav....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
I don't think some of these guys have ever been in 'bush' like we have here in Eastern Ont. Like you said a man cannot even walk thru it most of the time...you can't even see for more than a foot or two in front of you.. but your hound insists the deer "went that'a way"...of course, they always do...LOL..
I've had to leash a dog in the Limerick Forrest one night as a favor to another camp. I kept him leashed because it was a strange area for both of us and man it was a nightmare. The poor dog was doing his best but I could barley move thru the scrub all the while holding the lead. Just nuts.
We did eventually find the deer, the next morning, right where the dog said he was, in the swamp about 15 yds from where we stopped, but couldn't get to in the dark. Took a floating sled to get the deer out.
I should add; they would have NEVER found this deer, it's a long story, but the deer ended up no where near where the camp was looking, It was only thru the dog's tracking that it was found.
Beautiful! This is why we do this! Love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigshrimp
Excellent post.
I'm not into blood tracking deer, but always interested in reading about it. In the old movies , those bloodhounds always found their man- well , unless it was Paul Newman on the run. :)
Just to add to the conversation - I use a home made tracking leash, customized to allow me shorter and longer grips on the lead. It also doesn't tangle as much as one would think, 30' long.
That being said, Misty is a licensed deer hound as well - during the open season, and if running dogs is legal in the WMU - I will let her run. It can be more of a job keeping up with her, and you have to look, listen, and move through the brush pretty fast to keep up with her as well.
As previously touched on as well - tracking, from what I've learned in my short time doing it is all about trust. I didn't trust Misty the first couple times I tracked and it took quite a bit longer to find the fallen game. Now, regardless of whether or not I think she's going in the wrong direction - I always, ALWAYS, follow her. She knows what she's doing, she's proven it time and time again (11 for 11 tracks now). I know what signs to look for as well, but her nose is 1000x better than my eyesight.
that's pretty much reality. on the other hand, how often are most of us tracking? in addition, the impenetrably thick stuff (where you need to go on your belly) is where they finally bed and expire. so, it's kind of worth going in.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
personally, never needed to rely on a dog to find for anything I shot, but one day will be the day and I better have my dog ready and be fully confident in my dog's abilities.
for the reasons you mentioned, people have come up with quite specialized equipment over the years, which is nowadays all commercially available if you care buying overseas (e.g. neck protectors, mesh goggles, tracking rifles (that don't get caught in the brush and are as mud-proof as it gets), double action only handguns (never really understood that one, but it won't apply to us anyway), Kevlar clothing, daggers, etc.)
on a side note, if the leads gets caught too often, it might be because the dog doesn't work the actual track slowly enough or overshoots it too often and needs to "boegel" all the time to get back on track
therefore, (legal aspects aside) off leash tracking with a dog that has already trouble on a tracking lead should not be considered efficient. and don't forget if off leash, the dog does not only need to track, but also to do your job of dispatching or at least holding it at the location until you arrive (and that's a whole different discussion)
Looks like we will have enough participants for this event to go ahead. I am really looking forward to attending and learning a lot from folks who know so much more than I do. Thanks for the opportunity...
Only a few days to go, and not too late if anyone else is interested in attending! See my original post.
Me = getting nervous, (a) I'm not a presenter, and (b) with my luck Misty will just act like a goof and make me look like a fool.
Will get her out to run a few lines this week, but in this heat it's difficult. I may set a couple lines this evening and run her on them tomorrow evening - 24 hours isn't a long soak for her cold nose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jweese
LOL This is what often happens when we compete or demonstrate. I swear the dog plans it. :) I could tell you some stories of looking like an idiot.
Have a great time.
Hope it goes well. I did really want to go but looks like my father-in-law is very likely to die in this next week so won't be going anywhere. Have fun!
The seminar was wonderful and presenters John Jeanneney and Andy Bensing were absolutely passionate, and a vast fountain of knowledge for those wanting to learn more about blood tracking. It was great to meet some other members of our forums (marysburg), and some members of NAVDA as well - they're nice folks, don't believe what others tell you about them :)
Misty did amazing, my worry was for no reason. She hit the trail, and exploded off the start - finishing her track in amazing time (Andy commented it wasn't the fastest he'd ever seen, but it was certainly quick). She faltered her line once when she came to a field of wild turkey, but I draw her back into me, refocused her and she finished the track minutes later - earning her UBT 1.
Looking forward to learning more and progressing in this awesome service - and hoping to draw others into it as well, in the end it's all about conservation, and the more folks the merrier.
Good to hear that they imparted some good info.... Did they take you back into the deep bush and teach you how to handle the dogs on a leash when they are pulling you the thru the thick stuff nasty stuff. ?
That's the scenario most of us deal with so it would be nice to hear how they do it.
The tests were all conducted in deep brush, much thicker actually than most of the areas I've hunted in and I only had one issue with the lead tangling on anything and it was my fault really.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Handling the lead is a fine dance really, but it sounds much more difficult than it really is. Although you're working with a 20-30 foot (mine is around 22 feet) I never use the full extent unless I have difficulty getting through the bush and Misty wants to charge ahead. Really, you have to remember that - like all other dog related sports - blood tracking dogs should be obedient as well, and understand the lead/handler relationship.
I will hold the lead about 5-6 feet, not coiling up the unused portion like most would think. Instead, I let it trail/drag behind - this is why thin rope/cord is easier to use than webbing material (thin, flat leash material) as it tends to snag less on the brush/trees, etc. When the dog goes through an area you can't fit through you simply reach around and grab the lead with your other hand or (whether it's "right" or not, all handlers do it) you let go of the lead completely catching it on the other side of the obstacle - remember, you let go at the 5 foot mark, you could have up to 25 feet still trailing through, that gives you plenty of time to grab it.
I really suggest trying it, or seeing it in action to see what I mean - it is very simple, and there is little to no tangle. The next training session I do (as soon as I source more blood), I'll try to get someone to video it and I'll post it to YouTube.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jweese
Congrats! You've done a fine job with that dog. :)
I recently run out of blood (frozen). Until the fall, I would want to do some more training. Therefore, I tried butchers who used to sell blood (if you gave 'em sufficient notice). The one I contacted said, they wouldn't get any from the slaughterhouses anymore (no matter if it is for human consumption or anything else).
Anyone knows a butcher in North York who still gets their hands on some (0.5 - 2 liters)?
That's been an issue I've had as well - sourcing blood. Unfortunately, I was told pretty much the same thing by the butchers and abattoirs I've contacted; they can no longer sell or even give you blood as it is an unregulated product. If you find a source, please let me know as I used all I had left working with Misty before the BGBTO event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
----
Edit: On a whim; I just contacted another abattoir (after writing the above message); they have an inspector arriving tomorrow and they will ask him at that point what the details are around distribution.
As a "get-by-next-best-thing", I have found that most Chinese and Filipino butchers/grocers sell frozen beef and pork blood. Having trained my boy on deer, I find that pork is the better substitute than beef.
In the Filipino markets you will be asking for "dugo" It's sold in 450ml containers.
The speakers at the seminar last weekend were tremendous, and Laurel went above and beyond to host this event at her home. The theatre facility at OFAH gave us a cool and welcoming workspace on Saturday which was very welcome considering the humidex was 40 during the afternoon. I learned so much and was able to take copious notes to share with our blood tracking cohorts back home, so the information is really travelling far and wide. Absolutely tremendous information and wonderful new friends; a toast to BGBTO for sponsoring this event. Thank you, thank you.
P.S. Didn't get poison ivy!
375ml for $3.50Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. in TO
LOL
just picked one up at TNT
frozen blood (with water and preservatives) and to my surprise fully legal - even in Ontario...
Thanks CAinTO!
You are totally welcome
Agreed marysburg the seminar was extremely educational and Andy was a very engaging speaker. I can't wait to get started with our dogs. Laurel Thank you so much for all your work putting this together.