Beekeeping/Pollination Services - Looking for land

Hey all, I'm getting into beekeeping (a little late for this season, but still of value to most crop growers) in the Ottawa area and I'm looking for good land to set up my first beeyard on.

If any of you know anyone who could be interested, please let me know. I'd prefer that they're within 45 min drive of Ottawa South, but for a perfect property i could stretch that out to an hour's drive.

There are quite a few factors that go into choosing a good site, but there's no need to worry about that as I'd do an on-site assessment.

Please send me any suggestions in PM, thanks!

Best suggestion I can give, same with finding hunting spots... drive around places near where you're located, look for farm locations you'd like to put hives on, and go knock on the door. That's how I did it. Farm nearby, have a good relationship with the farmer now. Running 10-15 hives on there.

Coincidentally, 2 years after I started in bees, my father who owns 160 acres near Peterborough gets a knock on the door from a beekeeper... so now there's 20 hives sitting in the pasture area.

Try to keep yards within a reasonable driving distance to home. 45 minutes out is a decent amount of time, especially if you have to go back a couple of times in a week to make splits/requeen/etc etc...

Start scouring satellite images to figure out who's got open land, pasture, crops, etc in the area. Ideally you want pasture with varying wildflowers, so you get a varied source of pollen/nectar throughout the season. Monocrop can be hard on hives and you risk pesticide/herbicide sprays.

Don't necessarily go in offering pollination services... simply state that you're looking for a yard to keep bees. Pollination is a 'service', one which should be charged for... and if you imply that you'll give it away for free it devalues the service. Next thing you know you'll have people wanting pollination services for free... "cause it's a great spot for your bees."

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Originally Posted by northernontario

Don't necessarily go in offering pollination services... simply state that you're looking for a yard to keep bees. Pollination is a 'service', one which should be charged for... and if you imply that you'll give it away for free it devalues the service. Next thing you know you'll have people wanting pollination services for free... "cause it's a great spot for your bees."

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Point taken.

Wouldn't the pollination service be a trade off since the farmer is allowing somebody to place their bee's on his property for free? I mean I don't know anything about this subject and I'm probably way off in my thinking, but if I owned the land and somebody asked me if they could park their bee hives on my property, I'd think the pollination comes as part of the deal?

in this kind of case It does ,but there are cash croppers who hire bee keepers to bring in hives to work there crops ,this cost huge money with transporting hives and all kinds of logistics ,a lot of orchards and vineyards and soft fruit crops hire in bee keepers ,The hobby bee keepers are looking for a place to leave there hives for a few years and with that you get the benefits of the bees ,most put there bees were thy can get a good variety of wild flowers that bloom at different times threw the season as well as crops and hay fields Dutch

There is a small bee yard located near Development Road and Kerrs Ridge Road in Mountain township. It appears to be on public land (part of the Mountain Provincial Wildlife area). I have no idea how the beekeeper obtained permission to use this land, but it might be something you could look into. It's with your boundary too.

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Originally Posted by rf2

There is a small bee yard located near Development Road and Kerrs Ridge Road in Mountain township. It appears to be on public land (part of the Mountain Provincial Wildlife area). I have no idea how the beekeeper obtained permission to use this land, but it might be something you could look into. It's with your boundary too.

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Vandalism and now 'bee rustlers' are a growing concern. I don't think i'd ever feel good about placing my hives on public land. It's nice to have a landowner nearby to act as a watchdog, since i can't be around every day.

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Originally Posted by last5oh_302

Wouldn't the pollination service be a trade off since the farmer is allowing somebody to place their bee's on his property for free? I mean I don't know anything about this subject and I'm probably way off in my thinking, but if I owned the land and somebody asked me if they could park their bee hives on my property, I'd think the pollination comes as part of the deal?

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Typically the "trade-off" is a couple kg's of honey a year. The beekeeper keeping 20+ hives on my father's property drops off 2x3kg pails every year. I deliver a similar quantity to the farmer where I keep hives. The typical charge for pollination services is $120/hive. Yes, you as the landowner would be getting pollination; the difference is there is no set contract in place, nothing saying the beekeeper has to supply hives at a specific time meeting a specific quality. Ultimately it's how the value is perceived... beekeeper is looking for a spot, land owner benefits from pollination, but the land owner needs to know it's a secondary benefit that they aren't paying for. If they want guaranteed pollination from a specific number of hives, that has to be paid for.

Like I said, I've had plenty of people call me up and ask if I can place hives at their farm/garden/property for pollination. Things change when the topic of money comes up; If I'm moving hives around, travelling, having to meet deadlines... I expect to be paid for it. If I can place hives on land 5-10 minutes from my home there needs to be some incentive to load up hives and make a 2hr+ round trip to put hives somewhere else.

I know beekeepers in my area who keep hives at local berry farms... 90 minute round trip... and don't charge for pollination. I can't figure out why; they would produce just as much (or little) honey in their own backyard as they would at the farms.

Slightly off topic, but it's the same issue as perceived value of other items produced. I sell beeswax. Customer emailed me last week, said she wanted more of my wax as the wax she got for free last year from another beekeeper wasn't as nice as mine. Why would a beekeeper be giving their wax away for free? That stuff is valuable, even if you only have 1lb of it. Giving it away devalues it for those who sell it. I gave her my latest price... no reply.

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Originally Posted by rf2

There is a small bee yard located near Development Road and Kerrs Ridge Road in Mountain township. It appears to be on public land (part of the Mountain Provincial Wildlife area). I have no idea how the beekeeper obtained permission to use this land, but it might be something you could look into. It's with your boundary too.

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Yes I remember that spot well as it was in my backyard on crown land. I haven't lived there in almost three years but it was a very good set up. I did lots of grouse hunting in that particular bush lot of 2000 acres. I also found lots of pot plants growing in various places. lol

Good luck with your search, my 2 nucs are ready for pick up the week of June8 and then the new adventure begins. I am still in the process of putting up my electric fence as bears are quite common here, will you need an electric fence in your neck of the woods??? I have a "tag along" day set up with the bee farm soon, so it'll be good experience to get some hands on prior to the arrival of the nucs.

Good luck to you too Plog, we're both going to have a blast.

Not many bears just south of ottawa, lots of skunks and other critters though.

Not sure if I'll need to bother with full on fencing. I know one beekeeper nearby who just sets out live traps that the landowners glance at daily and text him if anything is caught. I may go that route initially.

If I ever start any yards in the upper ottawa valley though, bears will be an issue.

What kind of bees are you getting? I've got a mix of Italians & Russians.

I'd put up an electric fence. The beekeeper keeping hives at my father's place near Peterborough has a good strong 4-wire fence setup. I have fences around both of my bee yards here in Sudbury, and bears have been a problem. Also keeps out other big critters; cows, horses, etc.

You'd hate to invest all the time and money in getting a couple hives started and then lose them to a bear. The bear compensation that OMAFRA pays out barely covers the cost of a replacement nuc (if you can find one), won't pay for all the woodenware that is destroyed, and the winter the government will send you a nice T4A for the "income" from that payout... so they tax you on the payout later on. ;)

If skunks become an issue and you have trouble trapping them, pick up some carpet tack strips, cut them to approximately the width of the bottom board, and nail them down to the bottom board. Bees don't care, but the skunk won't scratch the bottom boards to entice bees to come out and get eaten.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Vandalism and now 'bee rustlers' are a growing concern. I don't think i'd ever feel good about placing my hives on public land. It's nice to have a landowner nearby to act as a watchdog, since i can't be around every day.

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This set up has been there for several years and I have never noticed any issues, but I don't go there everyday. I understand what you are saying though and actually I am surprised that the beekeeper chose this location given the way people treat the property in general.

To be honest I'm not too sure of the breed I'm getting, I know we were told this when I did the 2 day introductory course at Boards Honey Farm (Northern Nectar)(link provided). They have a great set up about 300+ hives and have been in the Restoule area since 1974. Being from a northern apiary I know they must be a hearty breed.

http://www.boardshoneyfarm.com

There is a lot of good info on YouTube to get ideas and then adapt them to fit your needs/situation. I already have plans for a solar wax melter/extractor/honey pail warmer/5 frame nuc box…I can make these myself for either free or a few bucks, much better than paying the huge $$$ at a bee supply store. I got from my old work place a solid stainless steel cooker that was being tossed into the garbage, it's now my uncapping tank…can't beat free stainless. They also threw out all food grade plastic pails in 4/5 & 6USG sizes, still have 100+ so all my honey storage is taken care of.

Good to hear you may not have any issues with bears, we had a close encounter here the other day, I didn't mention it yet until a MNR CO came over to investigate, which was yesterday afternoon….All went well with the CO (as expected), but we have lots of bears, just going to have to train them to respect that fence…10,000 volts/3 joules may be a deterrent…I hope.

Two years ago I had an issue with a bear not respecting the fence and climbing through the gaps to damage hives. Some aluminum foil dipped in peanut butter, hung on the fence, solved that problem.

Last year the bear returned, with two yearlings. They respected the fence, including a flimsy plastic poultry electric fence around some nucs I made. But they stuck around, damaging other equipment, showing aggression, stalking the house at night... Took one of the yearlings and filled the little freezer, within two days momma and the other yearling had left. Reported to the MNR and a brief phonecall followup was all it took to close the file.

I've seen evidence of bear activity in the bush by my house this year, but so far no problems.

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Originally Posted by rf2

This set up has been there for several years and I have never noticed any issues, but I don't go there everyday. I understand what you are saying though and actually I am surprised that the beekeeper chose this location given the way people treat the property in general.

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I have seen a bear on this crown land property many years ago and bear feces.

Won't have to worry about bears, if i can't find a suitable location.

Quickly finding out that there are some utterly massive honey operations throughout the area i'm interested in and they are property hogs. lol

No matter where i drive, which doors i knock on or the stones i turn over, i keep hearing "No... Beekeeper #1 or Beekeeper #2 already have a big yard on my property or the neighbours' property or just down the road".

Did get turkey hunting permission at 2 farms for next year though. lol

Speaking of bees! Someone bee farmer not to far away came walking behind my In laws house today my father inlaw went out and asked who he was and what he was doing.. He lost his cool and starting going off on him about spraying pesticides on the trees. Killed all his bees last year and doing it again this year.. Father inlaw told him to speak to the farmer that he leases the land to. He told the guy He doubts they will stop doing it and loose tens of thousands of dollars in crop damage.

guess buddy will have to put his hives somewhere else. Lol

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Won't have to worrI about bears, if i can't find a suitable location.

Quickly finding out that there are some utterly massive honey operations throughout the area i'm interested in and they are property hogs. lol

No matter where i drive, which doors i knock on or the stones i turn over, i keep hearing "No... Beekeeper #1 or Beekeeper #2 already have a big yard on my property or the neighbours' property or just down the road".

Did get turkey hunting permission at 2 farms for next year though. lol

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What about Fox here on the forum..? I dont know how far away you 2 are from each other but it seems like it could be a good fit. He seems to have a bit of land and having a like minded individual keeping an eye on things makes sense.
Ps. I know nothing about beekeeping , I was just thinking out loud , at the very least he may have contacts in his area?. Congrats on the turkey permission.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Won't have to worry about bears, if i can't find a suitable location.

Quickly finding out that there are some utterly massive honey operations throughout the area i'm interested in and they are property hogs. lol

No matter where i drive, which doors i knock on or the stones i turn over, i keep hearing "No... Beekeeper #1 or Beekeeper #2 already have a big yard on my property or the neighbours' property or just down the road".

Did get turkey hunting permission at 2 farms for next year though. lol

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Sorry to hear that your search for a bee yard is a little harder than expected, the new turkey hunting grounds is a bonus though. Keep at it and eventually a nice property will turn up to house the bees. I have til next weekend to finish the electric fence and then maybe bait it…with tin foil and either bacon grease or peanut butter…hoping any bear coming in has a really wet nose because I'm gonna make sure the ground is good n soaked, will have to put up the trail cam (on video).

Years ago there were 2 bee keeping set ups in the Marlborough Forest. One had an electric fence and the other didn't. One day I was walking near the unfenced one and it was totally destroyed. A bear had got at it.

The beekeeper on my place found out the hard way. Two strands of electric fence lets the bear get in but not back out. Three strands works good so far. Angry sugared-up trapped bear plus angry bees do not make for a stress free day.

I found this news story about bees in the Ottawa area you may find useful.


http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/05/30/...-getting-stung

Can anyone suggest a good smaller/cheaper solar electric fence system?

To go around a beeyard 3 times doesn't require any of the 3 mile - 30 mile units...

You may want to "google" minimum requirements of an electric fence to control black bears/predators, there is a lot of good info from the US state Dept of Wildlife and from UBC. The larger energizer are recommended because they have the power needed volts/joules to deter black bears….bigger/over kill is better…..the cheaper units are by far the 110-120V AC units but you can't use these units at a remote site without power, most bee yards are remote and the use of a solar unit is best, but costlier. I purchased last year the PARMAK 12V solar through Princess Auto…all there units are ON SALE right now, you may want to have a look on line, also TSC and Home Hardware sell energizers. I believe the minimum shock value is 7000V and .7 Joules for bears…best to check though.

That's weird... yes most articles and experts say that 0.7 joules is required for bear fencing. However, going to the most recognized solar energizer brands websites, I can't even find solar energizers that provide more than 0.5 joules.

http://www.zarebasystems.com/store/e...rgers/esp30m-z

http://www.zarebasystems.com/store/e...gers/esp30m-rs

Their better "budget" systems only provide 0.15 joules
http://www.zarebasystems.com/store/e...ers/besp10m-fs

Guess you have to go with an AC or DC system for bears. Don't know how the beekeepers do at remote hive yards. The solar energizers i've seen set up certainly don't look like 0.7 joules systems...

Basically, you're not gonna find a system rated at 300ft. Put in your average fencer, run 3 or 4 strands of wire on t-posts with insulators. I like to set it up so I can disconnect the bottom wire in a 4-wire setup later in the season. Once the grass is tall it'll short out all the time and make the fence less effective.

12v fencer, car battery, 12v solar panel with a charge controller to prevent overcharging (boiled a battery dry last season on a 40w panel). Pound in a good ground rod and you're set. You don't need 3 ground rods daisy chained together... this isn't a 3 mile system, it's a 300' system.

Last year I picked up one of these for a 3rd yard... http://www.amazon.ca/MAG12-UO-12-Vol...lectric+fencer

So far so good; and kept the bears out. Keep it covered with airflow to prevent moisture buildup. Ultimately the power consumption isn't that high, you can run a fence for a week without needing to recharge the battery. So you could also just have two batteries you swap in/out. Remember, you want the fence to have some punch when the ground is dry and less conductive, otherwise the bears just walk right through.

Just chatted with the folks at zareba and they don't recommend even their best units for bears.

So, it looks like ParMak is the only dependable choice. Northern Ontario, I don't like the hassle of swapping out batteries... so i'm looking more at the solar energizer systems.

The 12v solar unit I use has the rating for bear control off the Parmak site, from the home page click on energizers and then at the bottom are all the animal icons, just click on "bear symbol". Both the 6v n 12v are on sale at Princess Auto(as said) but Parmak does NOT rate the 6v for bears even though the ratings are above the minimum. I believe Boards Honey Farm uses/sells "Red Snapp'r" energizers.


http://www.parmakusa.com/subcategory_details.php?SId=2

Ya, pretty simple to set up a 12v system instead of buying a premade one. The downfall of a premade system, if the panel fails, or the battery dies, you're stuck trying to find parts to suit.

Car battery will last a while during a week of cloud, solar panel can be had cheap when on sale at Cdn Tire and often come with charge controller.

I find a big part is getting bears to respect the fence. Said it before, bit of peanut butter on tinfoil over the wire... solved the problem I had with a bear "walking through" the fence. *Sniff Sniff* *Lick* SNAP!!!

My guy uses 4-5 car batteries with a small solar panel. He just hooks his truck to the batteries every time he checks the hives.

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Originally Posted by Plog

I believe Boards Honey Farm uses/sells "Red Snapp'r" energizers.

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Yeah that's the system i've seen on the majority of beeyards i've checked out. And yet it's manufacturer, Zareba, strongly urges consumers to not rely on ANY of their units for bear.

Things you learn every day ! I have a Gallagher M1800 ( 18 joules ) and I have seen cattle walk through it when their calves got on the wrong side of the wire. ( They bellered all the time and you could hear the snaps from 200 yards away ).

There was an older Red Snapper here when we moved to this farm and I could hold the wire and shock anyone silly enough to trust me when I grabbed them ! lol I tested the Red Snapper and it was around 2000 volts, u/k joules.
The M1800 is 10000 volts and usually 2.5 amp unless there is a fault. It is a life changing event to accidently bump into it, you see stars !
Personally I would go with as much energizer as you can afford if you expect bear problems. Make sure whatever you get is grounded really well.

Worst shock i ever took was as a teen at my grandparent's farm. They'd boosted their electrical fence in the early 90s to keep a couple moose from entering their cattle feed yard.

They had a chunk of garden hose covering the fence at the spot they usually crossed. It had been there for a good 8 years or so, which meant little indents had formed on both sides from all the foot traffic. Those indents formed good little pools of water after rain or heavy dew.

One day when i crossed, i misjudged how much of that garden hose was in front of me vs how much was under me, one foot firmly planted in a small puddle... and my inner thigh (almost the junk) contacted that moose-proof fence.

The blast dropped me... right back onto the fence. Took another good wallop before i was able to throw myself clear.

lol you will not forget that one ,,I have been dinged a few times over the years as well ,,Dutch

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

The blast dropped me... right back onto the fence. Took another good wallop before i was able to throw myself clear.

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Cool story and clear illustration why to never put electric near barbed. Funny it even has to be said.

My most memorable was using a brush cutter and leaning the shaft against my leg then inadvertently the shaft into the wire. Dropped me to a knee, and it took several seconds to realize what had happened.

Oddmott, beekeepers may find this article interesting, especially for those searching for new bee yards in areas that have large AG farms.


http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/06/04/...ntario-farmers

Yeah, plenty of pissed off big agriculture guys out there.

I can't bring myself to call them 'farmers' any more. I have a really hard time reconciling the term "farmer" with anyone who puts the almighty dollar above all other considerations, anyone who actively pushes for use of every chemical marketed to them to use in the growing of our crops or raising of our livestock.

I get it - it's a tough gig with ridiculous hours, a lower $/hr than pretty much any other job in a G8 country, with little thanks and you don't get rich until you give it all up and sell off your million$ worth of equipment and land and buildings.

However, the reliance North American growers have developed on chemically manufactured pesticides, fungicides, fertilizers, etc is just sickening.

For once this gov't of Ontario got something right - they went about it all wrong, but the end decision is the correct one. It's time we stop accepting the USA's bullcrap reports about safety and suitability of ag products & practices at face value. They've been proved wanting time and time again since the 1940s, with devastating results.

Gov't, Ag professionals (of which beekeepers are a part) and the ag supply industry all need to do a lot more testing before they can determine what exactly is the lethal mix of pesticides/fungicides/parasites/etc that are destroying pollinator species. Until that time... there's really very little harm in banning the use of products we don't have a full understanding of.

Farmers survived without neonics for eons. Surely with all the other advantages modern farmers have today, they can make due without.

Got a bunch of hives completely built and 4 nucs installed so far.

May buy a few more if suppliers have buyers back out, but most likely will just take splits and swarms from my mentor and another hobbiest whose beeyards are as big as they can get. Both their bees are pretty docile with strong queens who are surprisingly productive into their 4th yrs.

Ended up on land 40 mins west of Ottawa, so its a bit of a hike, but I hope to find other fruitful spots in between Richmond-Ottawa over the next year to make the endeavor more profitable down the road.

Hope to end this year with 12-14 healthy colonies built up to winter well enough.

I truly wish you the best Oddmott. If you are competent , your hives will thrive. If you are not you can blame the farmers.

And being an honest person, with some integrity, I am sure when you talk to the people you let them know how you feel, like in post #38.

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Originally Posted by Angus

I truly wish you the best Oddmott. If you are competent , your hives will thrive. If you are not you can blame the farmers.

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Can't blame the farmers for anything at this, my first, yard. :-)

On a farm that hasn't been worked in 60 years and has just been used to pasture goats, cattle and horses. Neighboring farms are also either fallow or being worked by organic gardeners.

If anything goes wrong with these bees... It's all on me and my newbness.

Good luck with your adventure into bees….4 nucs are a great start. I get my 2 on This Thurs, still working on the yard and fence, way to much Canadian shield when digging for the posts and getting the grounding plate in. I'm now going to run 3 hot wires + 1 extra ground wire and the ground plate…If that isn't good enough(???) I will put down some chicken wire fence as a "mat" around the outside and ground that too, saw this set up on a youtube vid and seems to work well.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Can't blame the farmers for anything at this, my first, yard. :-)

On a farm that hasn't been worked in 60 years and has just been used to pasture goats, cattle and horses. Neighboring farms are also either fallow or being worked by organic gardeners.

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Sounds like non-producing entitled Social Assistance area of gardening for sure.

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Originally Posted by Angus

Sounds like non-producing entitled Social Assistance area of gardening for sure.

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Absolutely. They vend at 7 farmers' markets, but they don't produce anything. They just set up empty stalls and sell smiles and hugs.

Because, you know, the only way to "farm" is with every chemical know to man.

Humans didn't grow and eat anything for 30,000 years before the first manufacured chems were used in the 1800s.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

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Originally Posted by Angus

Sounds like non-producing entitled Social Assistance area of gardening for sure.

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Absolutely. They vend at 7 farmers' markets, but they don't produce anything. They just set up empty stalls and sell smiles and hugs.

Because, you know, the only way to "farm" is with every chemical know to man.

Humans didn't grow and eat anything for 30,000 years before the first manufacured chems were used in the 1800s.

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No offense but seven farmers markets and the whole "organic"market isn't even a drop in the bucket... Ask your organic farmers how they do for yields and time, fuel etc and then go ask the ones who use the current methods the same question.
Organic just isn't sustainable for feeding the masses.

I wish you luck with your bee's I have some great memories working with bees on our farm as a kid,
Just wait for your first handfull of aggressive bees in the suit you'll be doing dance moves never seen before. Lol

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

Absolutely. They vend at 7 farmers' markets, but they don't produce anything. They just set up empty stalls and sell smiles and hugs.

Because, you know, the only way to "farm" is with every chemical know to man.

Humans didn't grow and eat anything for 30,000 years before the first manufacured chems were used in the 1800s.

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Ya but yields were much less. My dad's family were growers since the 1800s and the introduction of fungicides dips for roots, tubers and rhizomes in the flower industry increased yields and profits. But many growers applying chemicals used them in a very irresponsable way when mixing or applying and later caused them illness and death. But these same growers had growing techniques passed along from generation to generation that were mainly organic base before the introduction of chemicals. I have my great grandfathers notes will all kinds growing techniques and solutions to solve or prevent disease. But this topic is a whole other thread. :)

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Originally Posted by trkyhntr21

No offense but seven farmers markets and the whole "organic"market isn't even a drop in the bucket...
Organic just isn't sustainable for feeding the masses.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Ya but yields were much less.

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Wouldn't disagree with any of that, folks. I understand the needs of the public and the demands on our agriculture sector. I also understand that we are one of the least populous countries yet have the most arable land per person on the entire planet.

Yet somehow our farmers claim to have it more difficult that european farmers facing higher demands, with stricter regulations and more bans in regards to pesticides.

There is a happy balance to be reached. It's just going to take a little more time to get there.

The organic farmers near my bee yard estimate that they provide enough food to feed 400 Ontario families as sold goods. They give away enough food (to avoid spoilage) to friends, family and charities to feed a further 200 Ontario families. In no way do i think that the efforts of these 4 people are inconsequential.

If more folks took the same measures they did, and if more people were aware of the benefits of buying fresher, more carefully manicured goods then everyone would be better off. Better diets, less pressure on the larger farmers, etc.

My godparents are also market gardeners and while not certified organic, they only use pesticides every other year when circumstances get completely out of control. Their crop damage usually comes more from out of season frosts and micro-bursts anyways... and there's no defense against those. Yet they make due and earn a very tidy 1.5 incomes from it (my uncle is a full-time master electrician).

There are always alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Oddmott

....
Yet somehow our farmers claim to have it more difficult that european farmers facing higher demands, with stricter regulations and more bans in regards to pesticides.

..

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Likely the 57 BILLION EUROS the EU spends on farm subsidies has something to do with that.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

Likely the 57 BILLION EUROS the EU spends on farm subsidies has something to do with that.

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And again, I'm a huge fan of such subsidies. The EU nations do not subsidize the importation and sale of luxury goods to the extent Canada does, they don't subsidize foreign business like Canada does. They don't provide tax breaks to industries and businesses who don't need them like Canada does. They don't subsidize energy creation and delivery like Canada does, so we can afford to heat our 2000+ sq/ft houses in the world's coldest climates.

I'd rather we stop subsidizing non-essential goods and corps, and focus on better subsidizing those who provide us with the absolute necessities of our lives here (food from farmers, shelter from natural resource industries). Let the rest of our economy sort itself out in the free-market, and shelter that which keeps us alive.

If the only options (which i doubt) to provide enough food for our demands is A) blast the everlovinghell out of our foods with dangerous chemicals or B) paying more for food directly or for programs to better subsidize our growers... i'm taking option B every time.

A huge fan of subsidies? You do realize they are all paid for by the tax payer. That's real dollars coming out of peoples pockets.

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

A huge fan of subsidies? You do realize they are all paid for by the tax payer. That's real dollars coming out of peoples pockets.

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They're tax dollars that are already being taken from our pockets in order to pay for the privilege to be able to buy crap/luxury goods that are non-essential to life.

What i support would be subsidization of Canadian agriculture - one of the most important aspects of our life - INSTEAD of crap cars, big screen tvs, etc. Let those items be treated as truly luxury goods and let the worthy endeavours receive the social support.