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I never used the wing on a string thing and I heard many times it has a very limited place in the development of a dog, so what issues or problems are being created by its use..?
btw, it is used quite commonly in Germany, however not necessarily just for pointing, but for retrieve development as well.
Would agree that it is not a large part of bird introduction .... for bird introduction we use live birds for this (starting with locked winged, then on to taped wing so that the bird has more movement, then on to clipped winged) What we have found is that the "wing on a string" is an extra tool in the tool box for working on steadiness.
"Wing on a string is a game nothing more. You don't have to have a wing on it, use a piece of rag. If i were to agree that it does cause sighting, I don't, then a piece of rag or anything other than a wing will accomplish the same end; to see if your dog will chase an object dangled in from of it. Those of you that think it is teaching something, keep doing it, it will accomplish nothing, it will do no harm. Good thing about it if your dog will point it is that it will make you feel better." :) " quote D.F.
I don't believe the wing on a string thing is meant to be a long term training method. We've used it, shortly after bringing home a pup from the breeder, as a game, so that the pup associates the scent of a bird with a fun activity. We've used it in tall grass to hide the wing and never allow the pup to catch the wing. After very few, short, sessions it is time to move onto the real thing (live birds). Never had a problem as a result of keeping it as a short-term game.Quote:
"Wing on a string is a game nothing more. You don't have to have a wing on it, use a piece of rag. If i were to agree that it does cause sighting, I don't, then a piece of rag or anything other than a wing will accomplish the same end; to see if your dog will chase an object dangled in from of it. Those of you that think it is teaching something, keep doing it, it will accomplish nothing, it will do no harm. Good thing about it if your dog will point it is that it will make you feel better." :) " quote D.F.
I don't think it is worse than doing nothing...
No question, nothing replaces a live bird and even there you can have lengthy and controversial discussions of what bird is best at what point in the development for what type of dog.
Yes, you may train a dog to sight-point, but better having a pointer that points on sight than one that chases every single bird out of the county or one that is even afraid of birds.
Not saying to intentionally start on the wrong foot, but it's not too hard to re-train a sight-pointing dog to point on smell (with live birds of course)
If you don't have access to live birds, a wing on a string is for sure better than training your hunting dog on tennis balls!
Waftrudnir, I personally disagree. Tennis balls would be far superior to a wing. If you don't have what you need or cannot get what you need to develop your dog, why do you have aspirations to one day have a bird dog? (I don't me you personally but anyone here.)
Yes, dogs can re-learn the right way to do things. Not sure why anyone wants to "knowingly" do them the wrong way?
What I mean is, the wing instills bad habits - sight-pointing being but one which will require aversive training to overcome. Bad habits have to be addressed. The process for eradicating a habit can sometimes be complex. One bad habit manifests into another habit, etc. etc.
I see videos of folk using this wing on a dog that appears to be 10 months or older! That dog will have to be re-programmed at some point OR the owner will have a dog that might work acceptably in synthetic applications. All the best theoretic training in the world does not produce a competent bird dog. Eventually, the dog has to transition to savvy, skittish, wild birds. I guess my personal strategy is to provide a theoretic program that will make the transition to wild birds very smooth and so, that's why I do things that way and why I feel the way I do about the wing thing.
That said, there are many ways to "skin a cat" as they say. If it works for you - keep it up!
Ugo, the point I tried to make is that many people will get a dog and will not (for whatever reason) provide the dog with enough opportunities to work birds (or for that matter any game in general). I cannot disagree with any of the facts you stated (other than the tennis ball LOL), but there are way too many hunting dogs (not only pointers) out there that only get yelled at for a week or two a year and spend the rest of their lives rotting in a kennel with no stimulation whatsoever. In light of that, I could even overcome my aversion to tennis balls...
To the OP and the statement that it is commonly done in Germany:
Germans hunt versatile dogs (at least that was the case when the string methods came up). Therefore, a good dog is one that hunts nose DOWN. I'm aware that there's a good chance to get hammered for that statement here (or anywhere in North America when you talk about bird dogs). Nose up and nose down have both clear advantages and disadvantages: a nose-up pointer is preferable, whereas a nose-up tracker is useless, etc.
So, breeding plays a role, but you can teach a dog a lot. And overall the German idea has been nose down. That's where the string comes in. And it's not only the jumping wing we do around here for pointers, which they do, but it's really a different idea. Additionally, they used to only work wild birds, which have gotten seriously rare (I'm not aware of game farms like we have). They drag a lot different game on the string to get the dog to learn to track a lot of different game (nose down).
Using the wing on a string to get a dog to point and using it to lay a sent down are very different things. I hope when using a wing on a string to lay a scent for tracking you are doing it without the dog watching, remember the idea is to get the dog to use its nose. Ok now for the wing on a string for pointing dogs. I find most people who try this are first time pointing dog owners who don't have any experience with pointing dogs. It looks good right put a bird wing in front of the dog to get it to point nice easy and you can do it any where. Big no no, the wing is in plane view of the pup the pup comes over to the wing you move it you do this until the pup sees its not going to get it. Its instincts tell it to point after a little while, owner gets happy my pup is pointing. Wrong you are creating a problem here, the pup is now sight pointing. Which could lead to a problem in the field, when the pup encounters a bird in the field it wont be in the open to see and point it will be hiding in the brush, so pup will move in on bird to try and sight it to point like you showed it with the wing on a string, but we all know a bird will not let a dog get this close it will flush and now you have a flushing dog instead of a pointer. That's why experienced dog trainers say stay away from the wing on a string. Use strong flying birds hidden in brush to get pointers pointing its the best way.
The above quote is the best of all these posts!Quote:
That said, there are many ways to "skin a cat" as they say. If it works for you - keep it up!
That’s all good and true.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishhawk
Just as much as I wouldn’t argue people who say that no dog should be ever trained on pen raise birds – period.
The problem is, I don’t have access to a vast array of wild birds. Who really has?
So, we go to the next best thing; strong flying pen raised birds, remote launchers etc.
But let’s be realistic: Not everybody has a couple of fields behind their home and a pen nearby. There are a lots of people who have to drive more than an hour to the next game farm or any other place they can use. So squeezing in a training session or two per day (with job, family etc.) is a bit difficult to say the least.
People/dogs play in different leagues (have to work with what they have). Therefore, IMO saying wing on a string is an absolute no-no is an overgeneralization. However, the point is that guys all too often don’t understand what it really does (good and bad) and are not prepared to transition the dog to the next level thereafter.
I am currently watching the Wildrose Way training DVD series where a good example of the bird on a string method and teaching steadiness. He had six labs each with a trainer all lined up and used the bird on a string method in various ways. All these labs already had the basics down and were probably between 1 to 2 yrs old. The bird on the string focus was not bird introduction but to teach them steadiness only. It was interesting to see only one of the trained labs go after it and the trainer correcting the dog. The dog did not go after it again. He even threw bumbers and had some dogs retrieve them while the bird on the string flew around as a distraction teaching them to retrieve only what he wanted. Excellent DVD series !
I agree, there is more than one way to skin a cat however introducing issues is never a good "cat skinner". Over-use of the "wing" will assuredly create issues and sight pointing is but one.
Sharon, you're right too. I have used a white rag successfully myself.
While the German process you described may in fact still be exercised to this day, I'm betting that they have progressed far past that by now. And the reason that I say that is because finding birds is a separate application than tracking a cripple. Dogs know a cripple from a non-cripple with absolutely no ambiguity. In-other-words, competent German breeds find birds nose high AND track birds nose low.
One of the processes I have never been fond of personally is the pheasant track. It promotes working a healthy live bird with nose down, which is a recipe for disaster. Yes, I know it works on pen-raised (synthetic) situations.
The problem arises when a dog is taught (regardless of breed origin) to work with it's nose low to find birds. It is not efficient for any "pointing breed" and will only work on pen-raised birds. Actually, I've seen this fail even with pen-raised birds.
This is one tell-tale sign of a dog that is more-often-than-not found standing a wild bird as the bird makes (or has made) it's escape versus a savvy dog that points (sticks/stabs/pegs) a wild bird(s) for you to flush/shoot. It's also why so many pointing dog owners insist that their dogs work close......really close, as in within gun range. I call them flionters or is it plushers? ;)
LMAO :)Quote:
flionters or is it plushers? ;)
I think "flointer" has a certain ring to it....
You guys are the best!! I love that you have a sense of humour.
It keeps me sane....well, almost sane. :silly: