Hunter Recruitment

A few days back I was told that “In fact, hunting is growing, which means that the recruitment failure does not, in fact, exist”…..”No recruitment failure, end of discussion.”

That got me to ponder, if recruitment is working, why are sales of tags dropping in ½ the MWUs in the province. Why are revenues from the sales of the licenses declining. So I have spent a little time pulling up some numbers to see if in fact ‘hunter recruitment’ is working.


Using the OFAH quarterly reports to find out how many students were in fact taking the taking the Hunter Safety and Firearm Safety courses, I found that the numbers from 3 consecutive years do support the claim that recruitment is working…in fact they are rather impressive.

In 2011…17,645….in 2012…21,000 and 2013…25,000.

So we have lots of ‘new’ recruits. The first thing a new hunter does is head to the MNR and pick up a Outdoor Card and buys the licenses right ?


There’s the rub.

I took a look at the MNR SPA (Special Purpose Account) revenue numbers that reflect the sale of the Outdoor Cards and all the licensing and tag purchases etc. If we are successfully adding 20+ thousand new sportsman into the province those numbers, the SPA fund should be growing.

So I gleaned revenue numbers from the SPA reports for the same period of time as we introduced all those new recruits.


In 2010/2011…$55.6 million......2011/2012…$43million 2012/2013..$.36 million...

(From page 9: https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...rt-2012-13.pdf )

What is glaringly evident is that the SPA revenues have been falling every year and it’s been going on for some time. Falling so low that the MNR is scrambling ways to make more money; they introduced a $2 surcharge on each transaction and making seniors now pay for their fishing licenses etc. I’m sure tag cost will be the next increase.


So why, why with such an influx of new hunters are all the other numbers declining. Is it hunter retention the real problem? Are more guys leaving the sport than can be replaced? If so then recruitment is ‘failing’ if it can keep up with the loss.

Or is it just that these new hunters not following thru…do they take the course then not take up hunting ? Recruitment is far more than taking courses over a weekend, it needs the follow thru of a mentored education and boots in the bush to be considered a success. Unless a large percentage of those 25,000 recruits become hunters, there is something wrong with recruitment.

In all the WMU's compined in Eastern Ontario there was only an increase of +66 Deer tags sold in 2013 compared with 2006. Where are these 1,000s of new recruits?


Maybe someone closer to the OFAH program here on the forum can shed some light onto what is happening with all these new recruits.

What about the new guys on here who have taken the courses recently, what about you classmates, did the follow thru ?

If recruitment it is truly working, why are licence/tag sales declining ?

I think it’s far from ‘end of discussion” I think it’s a great topic for discussion.

Would be interested in hearing OFAH comments...

It might be instructive to consider more than three years in our data set.
2008 - 2009: $36.8 million
2009 - 2010: $38.6 million
https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...rod-109164.pdf

The question now is no longer why revenue is falling, but why 2010-2011 revenue was so much higher than previous or following years. That one's a head-scratcher.

The SPA account doesn't really tell us where the money is coming from. Some licences are more expensive than others. So we don't know if new hunters are simply not buying as many expensive tags, or if older hunters are giving up on the more expensive tags, or if recruitment in Ontario is not offsetting the number of hunters who are simply giving up. All we can do here is speculate.

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Originally Posted by welsh

All we can do here is speculate.

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To try and avoid speculation, I specifically choose the dates and numbers I used because I could supply confirmed data to support the numbers. I could not find earlier 'recruit' data.

I think many of the "new" hunters are at least a generation removed from hunting and deer require more mentoring then small game or water fowl. Deer also take some time (and money) to invest right from scouting through to butchering. I can go hunting in the morning and have fresh grouse for lunch.... Hey, it could happen.:silly:

Hunting is a costly sport in both time and money.The attention span of yonger people in general is sadly lacking due to instant gratification they are used to but will not get with hunting.Lack of places to hunt is a big factor and having no mentors available.

Most yonge hunters are also starting out in jobs where they simply are not allowed time off when they need it to hunt.

Isn't there also fishing license $$ going into the spa? The # of new anglers may be even harder to track.

[What is glaringly evident is that the SPA revenues have been falling every year and it’s been going on for some time. Falling so low that the MNR is scrambling ways to make more money; they introduced a $2 surcharge on each transaction and making seniors now pay for their fishing licenses etc. I’m sure tag cost will be the next increase. ]

To clarify, seniors are not required to purchase a fishing licence, they may have the option to do so if they want to but is not required.

Even though there may be a high number of people taking the course i think many new hunters don't end up hunting due to varies reasons or are sticking to waterfowl and small game.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

Isn't there also fishing license $$ going into the spa? The # of new anglers may be even harder to track.

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While I researched this I saw a note that fishing licenses have also been on decline, but no numbers to support how many.

Interesting topic for discussion Mike.

New(er) hunters don't necessarily jump into big game right away. Typically they buy small game license and duck stamp and take advantage of the easier game to get into.

Dynamics are also changing. Where deer season meant a week off at the camp, now there are many other demands on guys time, and taking that week isn't always available. Couple that with lower tag numbers in other game ( like moose), and older guys getting out of the sport, and you can probably directly attribute the lower amounts of money going into the SPF.

I can't help but wonder if the strength of the CDN dollar during that period may have had an impact as well, since when our dollar is strong, we get far fewer US citizens coming up here and buying the more expensive non-resident licenses.

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Originally Posted by Quack_Kills

Even though there may be a high number of people taking the course i think many new hunters don't end up hunting due to varies reasons or are sticking to waterfowl and small game.

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In another thread we saw data that shows Waterfowl permits were up an average 1% or about 1,000 per year for the past 7 yrs (decline before that). ..a small fraction of the 25,000 students that are passing the courses.

I agree with others that there are a number of factors involved. I think the drop in Moose tags has had a really big impact as many of the people that hunt Moose do so in larger groups. I'm not sure what the ratio of Bull tags is to hunters in a group, but I'm sure this has contributed to the drop in revenues. I haven't applied for a Moose tag for the last 3 years.
I think that experienced hunters need to do their part by mentoring new hunters. This will get them engaged and hopefully get them to become hunters for life.
( With aging populations, I wonder how many senior either don't hunt anymore. )
Lots of things to think about.

I think the new hunters biggest problem is, where can they go to hunt.
Not easy to find a good place to hunt deer, or turkey or anything else.
Then they quickly give up.
Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by JUDGE

Just my opinion.

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In fact while I was reading up on this topic, that is the most recognized hindrance to new hunters, according to the MNR.

There are lots of places to hunt but within driving distance of most of the population hunting permission is very hard to get. If you don't know people it is hard to get land to hunt, nobody trusts anyone anymore. Younger people are also looked at with a very bad light, not to their fault but rather it is a stigma that young people, males especially, are just little punks with no respect, hence the difficulty with permission. On top of that, hunting lands are being reduced due to an increase in those not wanting hunters on their property or heavily restricts where they can go and what they can hunt. This is their right as the land owner but it does make things tougher for those trying to make use of the rare opportunity they get to hunt.

Hunt camps don't help the cause all that much either. Established camps have a tendency to keep things in the family, if they lose numbers from one generation to the next as children get busy or don't get into hunting, they rarely search out replacements. I know of very few 12+ person camps around where we used to hunt and that was the norm at one point.

I know you have to keep talking to people and asking but when you go to 20 farms and get 20 o answers or worse it is a little disheartening to keep going.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

In fact while I was reading up on this topic, that is the most recognized hindrance to new hunters, according to the MNR.

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OK. Let's also not ignore the fact the some newer hunters get their licenses and just assume that they're going to just go hunting.

There is a generation of newer hunters that didn't get mentored the same as some of us. We live in a society where everything has to be convenient, and no one wants to put in any effort. I'm not saying all, but there are quite a few.

The very concept of looking at topographic maps, and the Crown Land atlas, and then putting miles on the boots is foreign to some. We see a few of them that come on here....

Yes, being a new hunter can be daunting, particularly if you don't anticipate putting a ton of effort in right at the start.

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Originally Posted by JUDGE

I think the new hunters biggest problem is, where can they go to hunt.
Not easy to find a good place to hunt deer, or turkey or anything else.
Then they quickly give up.
Just my opinion.

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Hard on experienced hunters as well. Difference is one group knows things well get better.

As a fairly new.. still learning hunter a big problem is finding people to hunt/teach about hunting. Everyone is more than willing to help an apprentice hunter learn.. but not adult hunters. I know why, the fear of someone stealing their spot..

I got a couple of my friends into hunting when they were in their early 20's. Both came from non-hunting families. One big thing I noticed was that they were always afraid to accidentally break a hunting or firearm related rule and needed constant reassurance that what they were doing and how they were doing it was OK. Straight-up nervousness of "going it alone" might be enough to deter new hunters from heading afield.

I guess that kind of echoes BBD's comments about proper mentoring.

I was looking at the data for Turkey Hunting as well, but had a hard time finding recent numbers....the last published data I found was for 2007 and it said that 5,000+ 'recruits' completed the seminars and received certificates that year.

Looking at the harvest charts (see link below) from the MNR for 2008 -2013 it's apparent that there are not that many recruits following thru to becoming Hunters.

Understand that these are harvest reports, not Hunter numbers, but you can extrapolate that they are still a good indicator as to how many hunters are out there by how many birds are killed.

According to the time period 2008 to 2013 (5 yrs) , of the 46 MWU listed, 27 show decreases, 6 show no change and only 13 show increases.

If the numbers taking the seminars even stay the same (5,000+ a year), that means that over the same period , we should have seen 25,000 new Turkey hunters out there. You would think the Harvest numbers would increase as more hunters are added to the WMUs. But it doesn't seem to be so.

Turkey Harvest Report: https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...rod-095178.pdf

edit add: I had sent an email request to the OFAH to see if they could give me some updated information on how many people take the seminars and was told to submit an official "Access to Information" request thru the government...LOL...must be sensitive information :)

I will offer you another angle. We don't need anymore hunters in ON, there's more than enough.
Considering the amount of huntable land and game and the tensions around trespassing - plenty.
Everywhere I go there are hunters. Hunters is not milking cow for MNR, gov agencies should use their funds more efficiently and hunters are not the only source, MNR gets funding from the gov.
OTOH, I don't understand wny MNR doesn't publish number of licenses they sell..?
I read somewhere there were almost one million small game licenses sold, but can't recall where...

It sure does beg the question as to why 'Dad' is forking over $100's of dollars for the Firearm/Hunter courses etc if there is no 'plan'. Shouldn't it be a thought out venture with goals and more than a glimmer of hope that they will use their training.

You would have thought that he/she was able to secure a place to shoot and hunt before they take the courses ?

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To clarify, seniors are not required to purchase a fishing licence, they may have the option to do so if they want to but is not required.

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They likely will be required to pay starting next year.

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Originally Posted by topher

As a fairly new.. still learning hunter a big problem is finding people to hunt/teach about hunting. Everyone is more than willing to help an apprentice hunter learn.. but not adult hunters. I know why, the fear of someone stealing their spot..

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Don't worry you can come out and try to sink one of my kayaks any time you like. I will even be heading over your way for early goose and a few trips this year.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

Isn't there also fishing license $$ going into the spa? The # of new anglers may be even harder to track.

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Yes, the fishing license revenues are included in the SPA....according to numbers in the EBR to address the license fee increases;

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The number of resident fishing licenses declined from 1.4 Million in 2000 to 932,000 in 2011.

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In the same EBR; they had a survey done as to why;

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A study by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in 2010 has found that anglers do not fish as much as they would like to because of certain constraints, such as time and proximity to satisfactory fishing locations, and competition for their limited leisure time (primarily gardening, reading, television, golfing, hiking, fitness activities, youth organized sport, and computer/internet use

). In a 2013 MNR survey, some Ontarians also mentioned barriers to start or return to
fishing, including a lack of knowledge of where to fish and lack of fishing skills.

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Although those are specific to Fishing; I'm pretty sure that those same survey answers could be used as answer why kids aren't getting into Hunting.

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Originally Posted by Quack_Kills

To clarify, seniors are not required to purchase a fishing licence, they may have the option to do so if they want to but is not required.

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Originally Posted by TPM

They likely will be required to pay starting next year.

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Yes according to the EBR...in 2016 Seniors will start paying a reduced rate (80% of normal) for their fishing license; $13 for a conservation and $23 for Sport.

I finally found some Fishing / Hunter data in the SPA Sustainability Report from the MNR (see link).

a) Hunting and fishing licences (resident and non resident) account for 61% of the funds going into the SPA.

b) In 2013, Ontario had 1.3 million licensed anglers and over 400,000 hunters.

c) The number of resident fishing licences had declined from 1.4 million in 2000 to 932,000 in 2011.

d) Hunters License sales had increased by 125,000 over a 10 yr period….or an increase of about 12,500 a yr for the years 2000-2010..or about 3% per year.

So with those numbers, that means of the 25,000 Hunters recruited thru the Hunter safety course over that same period, only about 50% went on the buy a license. And that would also add credence to the assumption that most new hunters only buy a basic ‘small’ games licences, because we have seen that the numbers of Deer Tags sold continue to decline in most WMUs over that same period of time.

It would be interesting to see how many of them carry it to the next step and put boots in the bush.

I was a little surprised in a province with 13.7 million people there are only 400,000 hunters or about 3% of the population. I haven't found data to support whether that is an increase or decrease over the past decade (considering how many Hunters stop hunting) .


read more (mostly fishing related)..http://apps.mnr.gov.on.ca/public/fil...rod_110525.pdf

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I was a little surprised in a province with 13.7 million people there are only 400,000 hunters or about 3% of the population.
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Remove the population of Ottawa area, GTA, Hamilton area and Windsor just to see how that effects your 13.7 million. A large number with other pass times with no interest or exposure .

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Remove the population of Ottawa area, GTA, Hamilton area and Windsor just to see how that effects your 13.7 million. A large number with other pass times with no interest or exposure .

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This was not always the case.

They used to make shotguns that would fold up into a case that looked like a brief case, it was supposed to be used when you took the trolly to the gun range.

People in the city don't have exposure because a lot do not know it even exists. Look at high density residential, much of this is new Canadians, many of whom come from areas where gun ownership is illegal and hunting is not something that the average person can do. I learned to hunt from my dad, I am working on teaching my wife the art as well, but for people who are not part of the culture to want to join there are more than a few hurdles.

To me the situation is reasonably easy to rationalize. Most hunters are older (50+) and are retiring from the sport. Young people don't have the time or the money for the sport which has become increasingly costly (considerably so from when the boomers learned as young people).

There's also the ever-shortening attention span factor with people these days. There's even been talk of changing the layout of golf courses (18 holes is way to long) and the physical size of the hole because golf is "too hard" to learn and become good at quickly enough. Golf, like hunting, is failure-dominated. Meaning that it takes a whole load of unsuccessful outings before success begins. The have-it-now mentality of the world today just doesn't fit with the patience required to hunt, especially big game. When new hunters come to realize that it's not as easy as it looks on Wild TV or YouTube, they give it up. The internet has created an impatient society.

We had a couple of young guys thru the years that joined the Deer camp and hunted with us up to the point where they had to field dress their own kill....that was the game changer for them, they never came back...LOL...

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Originally Posted by Fox

This was not always the case.

They used to make shotguns that would fold up into a case that looked like a brief case, it was supposed to be used when you took the trolly to the gun range.

People in the city don't have exposure because a lot do not know it even exists. Look at high density residential, much of this is new Canadians, many of whom come from areas where gun ownership is illegal and hunting is not something that the average person can do. I learned to hunt from my dad, I am working on teaching my wife the art as well, but for people who are not part of the culture to want to join there are more than a few hurdles.

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You did see that I did say lack of exposure right? I know that there are many in the city that are also hunters. We agree on the fact, your filling in the facts

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

You did see that I did say lack of exposure right? I know that there are many in the city that are also hunters. We agree on the fact, your filling in the facts

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Yep, it used to be a higher percentage rural society, now that has changed to an urban setting.

It also used to be cheaper to get meat by hunting, that was why all the poor people hunted, that is no longer the case either. If I counted how much that deer meat cost me I would be sick, ha ha.

I took a quick look thru the remainder of the MNR Harvest reports this morning for the big game data and see that the trend in Hunter Numbers was, across the board, not overly positive.

Estimated Moose numbers; taking a look at the report at link it says that the estimated numbers of moose hunters dropped in 50+ % of the MWU's since 2006.

https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...tivity-and.pdf

Bear licenses have actually stayed pretty stable from 2003-2013, 17,000 to 21,000 or 20% growth over 13 years or 1.5 % annually…which translates to only about 300 more licenses per year.

https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...ty-harvest.pdf

Add that data to what the Deer numbers show (down in over 50% of the MWU's) and the very low growth (+1.5 %) of the Waterfowl permits sold, it's apparent that the Hunter recruitment numbers (how many are taking the courses), while impressive to the OFAH, are less than adequate to maintain sustainably of the sport. Especially since when you look at the increase in Hunter Licenses sold to them is only about 50%.

In most cases it appears that Hunter recruitment is barely covering the decline of hunter numbers in many WMU's and in most cases (over 50%) are not replacing the Hunters who are dropping out of the sport. Failure ? Definitely not a success.

Should we be overly concerned? Does it matter ?

You're continuing to assume that deer and moose tags measure hunting participation.

We first have to decide what makes someone a hunter, for our purposes. Do they have to hunt certain game, or hunt a certain number of days a year? Is someone who gets out only once a year to sit in a blind with his buddy a hunter? What about someone who self-identifies as a hunter but, some years, doesn't get around to hunting? The difficulty in measuring actual participation becomes clear.

Well since I have included Bear, Waterfowl, Turkey, as well as Moose and Deer in the data provided, that covers pretty much all BUT small game.

(I'll look for data on Migratory Game Bird hunting to see what is happening there over the past decade..any guesses ?)

Small Game, I assume, falls under the sales of the Hunter licenses data which as stated earlier, are only increasing about 3% annually.

The question then is, how many of those new recruits actually go out and hunt small game. I suspect if they did they would quickly transition into hunting something other than just small game. However the numbers, over the 7 yrs of data, don't show that happening.

I suspect with a lot of the new hunters, Dad is buying the license for them but, like they found in the Fishing survey, allot of them are finding reasons (excuses) for not going out hunting.

edit add: as suspected:

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, in Ontario the number of migratory bird hunting permits reduced from over 130,000 in 1985 to just 62,000 in 2013,

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Since Migratory Bird hunting hits closer to home for you Welsh....with the decline in the number off permits being sold, from 1330,00 to 62,000 over the past 20+ yrs....are you not concerned that the lack of recruitment into the sport will hurt it ?

I don't worry much about whether hunting is going to survive.

It's simply not something I see as important enough to care about, frankly: hunting is going to survive in my lifetime, and what happens after that is out of my control. Indeed, what happens in my lifetime is largely out of my control. The massive decline in hunting from the 1970s through the 1990s resulted from huge demographic shifts. It wasn't anything anyone could reasonably expect to reverse, and it still isn't. But I don't share in the general pessimism about the future of hunting. My kids will be able to hunt if they choose to.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I don't worry much about whether hunting is going to survive.

It's simply not something I see as important enough to care about, frankly: hunting is going to survive in my lifetime, and what happens after that is out of my control. Indeed, what happens in my lifetime is largely out of my control. The massive decline in hunting from the 1970s through the 1990s resulted from huge demographic shifts. It wasn't anything anyone could reasonably expect to reverse, and it still isn't. But I don't share in the general pessimism about the future of hunting. My kids will be able to hunt if they choose to.

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seeing a sportsman having that attitude, it sure is hard not to be pessimistic about the future.

"hunting is going to survive in my lifetime, and what happens after that is out of my control"....not if you do something to help make it better..

I'm confident people will be hunting long after my influence has completely disappeared from this earth.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I don't worry much about whether hunting is going to survive.

It's simply not something I see as important enough to care about, frankly: hunting is going to survive in my lifetime, and what happens after that is out of my control. Indeed, what happens in my lifetime is largely out of my control. The massive decline in hunting from the 1970s through the 1990s resulted from huge demographic shifts. It wasn't anything anyone could reasonably expect to reverse, and it still isn't. But I don't share in the general pessimism about the future of hunting. My kids will be able to hunt if they choose to.

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Yes I have to agree especially since everyone seems to know someone getting into hunting. So much more information available today on the internet, DVD's, Youtube showing how to hunt, clean and prepare game for the table. It's allot of work involved and may turn many wood be hunters away from the sport. I would sooner see fewer new people into hunting but dedicated and in it for the long haul and setting a good example.

I'm 25 and came from a hunting background. I was licensed when legally allowed to and have hunted as much as I can.
When I was younger I was much more concerned about the future of hunting. It was very popular to be 'anti-hunting' in the 90's and even early 2000's but I believe there has been a dramatic shift in the last 5 year, and I think the influx of the organic movement has a lot to do with it. In fact, I read and article last year about new 'hipster hunters' who are getting into hunting in large numbers, but not for the bravado of hunt camp, but for the hope of free range organic meat.
I personally have introduced 5 new people from non-hunting, office work backgrounds into hunting in the last 2 years. These guys have all gone the distance and have taken to hunting completely, buying tags and getting out as much as time will allow.
That being said, one of their biggest frustrations comes from some of the good old boys who aren't willing to take this younger generation seriously. There is a HUGE stereotype that anyone born after 1980 is lazy and wants everything served up on their iPhones.
I think if a little more respect was shown, and those under 30 weren't lumped in with those under 12, we wouldn't see so many people getting licensed with good intentions, then walking away frustrated.

Yes i read the same article and it was very interesting. You are correct about the organic movement and have introduced my brother in law to hunting. I gave him a couple of wood ducks I shot last fall and he made the best duck dinner i have ever had.

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Originally Posted by kdp89

It was very popular to be 'anti-hunting' in the 90's and even early 2000's but I believe there has been a dramatic shift in the last 5 year....

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I believe you believe correctly. I ran across an interesting little factoid this morning: 79% of Americans approve of hunting according to a 2013 survey, and only 12% disapprove, as compared to 74% and 22% in 1995. Approval of hunting seems pretty stable overall, but disapproval has declined.

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Originally Posted by kdp89

I think if a little more respect was shown, and those under 30 weren't lumped in with those under 12, we wouldn't see so many people getting licensed with good intentions, then walking away frustrated.

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And we see that all the time on this forum. These kids today, get off my lawn, etc.

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Originally Posted by kdp89

I think the influx of the organic movement has a lot to do with it. In fact, I read and article last year about new 'hipster hunters' who are getting into hunting in large numbers, but not for the bravado of hunt camp, but for the hope of free range organic meat

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Good point, I wasn't aware that the hipsters were getting into hunting. The article below has some good insights.

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Experienced sportsmen may be rolling their eyes at all of this, imagining a bunch of yuppies tramping through the woods and scaring off all the deer. And they’re probably right—these new hunters will inevitably foul opportunities at game, as would any nascent sportsman. But despite however self-important or naive these hipsters may seem, their presence should be embraced nonetheless, for the sake of the sport and wildlife, both of which they seem bent to encourage. These eager, engaged sportsmen may provide the jolt of enthusiasm needed to combat the misguided and poorly informed anti-hunting rhetoric that too often proliferates through the creative class. Now we’ll just have to wait and see how deep their convictions run if shooting game doesn’t stay in vogue.
http://sportingclassicsdaily.com/iss...ipster-hunters

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Originally Posted by kdp89

....That being said, one of their biggest frustrations comes from some of the good old boys who aren't willing to take this younger generation seriously. There is a HUGE stereotype that anyone born after 1980 is lazy and wants everything served up on their iPhones.

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We've had numerous threads on this topic over the years that get lots of posts/feedback from members who have had both success and disappointments in mentoring new hunters. I know a few camps that have tried to get new guys to join the camp due to dwindling numbers but have a hard time to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We had two guys leave our camp after the first year because we didn't have a TV. Most of the guys in the camp remember when the camp didn't even have electricity. Sure there is a generational thing, but that's natural, not necessarily called stereotyping....because that works both ways.

Good to hear some input from a younger hunter, thanks for posting.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I ran across an interesting little factoid this morning: 79% of Americans approve of hunting according to a 2013 survey, and only 12% disapprove, as compared to 74% and 22% in 1995. Approval of hunting seems pretty stable overall, but disapproval has declined.

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I'll bet that has changed significantly this week after the Cecil debacle....Hunters are 'persona non grata' on social media...LOL..

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Originally Posted by welsh

I ran across an interesting little factoid this morning: 79% of Americans approve of hunting according to a 2013 survey, and only 12% disapprove, as compared to 74% and 22% in 1995. Approval of hunting seems pretty stable overall, but disapproval has declined.

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The public's opinion on Hunters in Ontario was significantly different than our American counter parts back in 2002.....I wonder how much those numbers have fluctuated over the past 13 yrs.

Interesting to see how the numbers change with how the question is asked.

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The Ipsos-Reid poll found that over 85 percent of Ontario residents find hunting acceptable with 50 percent agreeing that it is completely acceptable to hunt and a further 35 percent agreeing that hunting is acceptable given certain limitations. Only eight percent of those surveyed believed hunting should not occur under any conditions.

Almost 90 percent of Ontario residents find hunting for food to be acceptable, and 82 percent of Ontarians agree that hunting is part of Canada’s cultural heritage. Over 73 percent of the people polled also acknowledged that hunting is necessary to manage wildlife and to control overabundant wildlife populations.

http://www.huntingfortomorrow.com/re...%20Hunting.pdf

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Had a "new" hunter PM me here about taking him under my wing..
I replied and gave him some contact infomation, but as of yet he has not contacted me again.
seems like a false start...again.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

The public's opinion on Hunters in Ontario was significantly different than our American counter parts back in 2002.....I wonder how much those numbers have fluctuated over the past 13 yrs.

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The clear trend in the US over the past 20 years is a steady and statistically significant decline in the number of people who say they disapprove of legal, regulated hunting. At the same time there is a small increase in the number of people who approve. There's no reason to think the trend is any different in Ontario, where approval and disapproval levels are basically similar.

Responses change according to the rationale given for hunting. This is well documented: a large majority approves of hunting for food, but approval for "trophy hunting" is quite low. The Ontario numbers follow that same pattern.

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Originally Posted by welsh

This is well documented: a large majority approves of hunting for food, but approval for "trophy hunting" is quite low.

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That's true even on a Forum full of hunters..trophy hunting is frowned upon by many traditional 'meat' hunters.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

That's true even on a Forum full of hunters..trophy hunting is frowned upon by many traditional 'meat' hunters.

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I think its the other way around. Read more post from trophy hunters stating how it should be 8 points and better or long beard toms or nothing. Actively discouraging the taking of anything that's not a trophy in their eyes. The only time "meat" hunters frown down is if the meat where appropriate is wasted.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

I think its the other way around. Read more post from trophy hunters stating how it should be 8 points and better or long beard toms or nothing. Actively discouraging the taking of anything that's not a trophy in their eyes. The only time "meat" hunters frown down is if the meat where appropriate is wasted.

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That is very true...unless it's up to their standards, your not a 'real' hunter.

We've had numerous threads on here about Hunting inside fences (Canned) hunting and QDM practices and lots of guys who hunt to 'fill the pole' have been vocal with their disdain for that aspect of the sport. It has let to some very divisive discussions.

Your first point is very valid when we are discussing recruitment. There have been a few time on here when a 'new' hunter has posted a pic of his first Bow kill and it's a small fawn/doe and the some guys feel the need to criticize.

Don't get why they feel that helps in anyway.

Yup my take is doesn't matter if its #1 or #100 if its legally taken in an ethical manor than good on you. I get ruffled when someone states don't do that as it'll hurt my chance at a "trophy". Last discussion along this line was the recently reopened herring season on Simcoe. Thought based on science and great a couple of tasty fish to add to the perch fillets however some were outraged at the opening since a decrease in herring may reduce their chance at catching a 20lb Lake trout.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

That's true even on a Forum full of hunters..trophy hunting is frowned upon by many traditional 'meat' hunters.

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Yep and you can put my name at the top of that list.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

I think its the other way around. Read more post from trophy hunters stating how it should be 8 points and better or long beard toms or nothing. Actively discouraging the taking of anything that's not a trophy in their eyes. The only time "meat" hunters frown down is if the meat where appropriate is wasted.

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I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Organizations like QDMA,for example, come to mind and really wrankle my feathers,but,I digress. With the current backlash and vilification of trophy hunting that's drawn the attention of the world of late,it's quite evident that many hunters have those sentiments,also,which is not going to do us any favors on the recruitment side.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Yep and you can put my name at the top of that list.



I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Organizations like QDMA,for example, come to mind and really wrankle my feathers,but,I digress. With the current backlash and vilification of trophy hunting that's drawn the attention of the world of late,it's quite evident that many hunters have those sentiments,also,which is not going to do us any favors on the recruitment side.

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Think the problem here is a convergence of forces. The problem most hunters are having is this occurrence is in no way a legal hunt. The message from our community should be we support hunting done ethically following established rules and regulation and if you break them we support the full weight of the law to fall on you. If you follow them than all you do good on you.

There's more to ethics than law, though.

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Originally Posted by welsh

There's more to ethics than law, though.

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Yup that's why my response is worded that way not only legal but ethical consideration ....though moral concerns can be kept to ones own.

If you're saying that we should keep our moral or ethical views to ourselves as long as people are within the law, I disagree.

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Originally Posted by welsh

If you're saying that we should keep our moral or ethical views to ourselves as long as people are within the law, I disagree.

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Just a question on that...If I can legally shoot pocket gophers with my TAC-50, but you think it's unsporting are you going to be mean and call me hurtful names? 😭

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Originally Posted by welsh

If you're saying that we should keep our moral or ethical views to ourselves as long as people are within the law, I disagree.

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You are having a bit of trouble reading my posts. Hunting should be govern first by legal definition. Tempered by an ethical conscience however another's moral plays no part in what you do.

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

Just a question on that...If I can legally shoot pocket gophers with my TAC-50, but you think it's unsporting are you going to be mean and call me hurtful names? 

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No, but I am going to argue that you ought not to.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

You are having a bit of trouble reading my posts.

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Correct. And there's a reason for that.

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Originally Posted by welsh

No, but I am going to argue that you ought not to.

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And so why should I not?...I don't think I would even have to hit the gopher. Just the fact that I am hurling rounds at it that are the same size as the gopher could be enough to give it a heart attack..:scream:

i think some people have it right... more people are taking after the more popular waterfowl and small game hunting.. With television shows such as duck dynasty, there is no wonder why people are going more towards that way of hunting, in which means you can take multiple limits per year for a lower price instead of one tag for a much higher cost for the liscence..

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Originally Posted by Snowwalker

And so why should I not?...I don't think I would even have to hit the gopher. Just the fact that I am hurling rounds at it that are the same size as the gopher could be enough to give it a heart attack..:scream:

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I'm not saying you should not. I'm answering your hypothetical case.

Legality has to be the final word. Morals and ethics are very subjective. Different strokes for different folks. Judge not lest ye be judged.

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Originally Posted by welsh

I'm not saying you should not. I'm answering your hypothetical case.

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Well at $32.71US for ten rounds.....price would make me talk myself out of it long before you could..:sad:

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I took a quick look thru the remainder of the MNR Harvest reports this morning for the big game data and see that the trend in Hunter Numbers was, across the board, not overly positive.

Estimated Moose numbers; taking a look at the report at link it says that the estimated numbers of moose hunters dropped in 50+ % of the MWU's since 2006.

https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...tivity-and.pdf

Bear licenses have actually stayed pretty stable from 2003-2013, 17,000 to 21,000 or 20% growth over 13 years or 1.5 % annually…which translates to only about 300 more licenses per year.

https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net...ty-harvest.pdf

Add that data to what the Deer numbers show (down in over 50% of the MWU's) and the very low growth (+1.5 %) of the Waterfowl permits sold, it's apparent that the Hunter recruitment numbers (how many are taking the courses), while impressive to the OFAH, are less than adequate to maintain sustainably of the sport. Especially since when you look at the increase in Hunter Licenses sold to them is only about 50%.

In most cases it appears that Hunter recruitment is barely covering the decline of hunter numbers in many WMU's and in most cases (over 50%) are not replacing the Hunters who are dropping out of the sport. Failure ? Definitely not a success.

Should we be overly concerned? Does it matter ?

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MikePal

the answer is pretty simple for hunter recruitment

I am a new hunter 1 year

I went to the course with 7 other people we took pal non and restricted and hunting course

all 7 of us purchased only small game license for predator hunting

I am the only one who has bought turkey and deer tags of all my buddies

and with the older hunters passing on or not hunting due to health the numbers are going to drop

shooting sports are huge and growing and a lot just take the hunting course "just in case " but 90% are for shooting sports and the hunter course is just a by product

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Legality has to be the final word. Morals and ethics are very subjective. Different strokes for different folks. Judge not lest ye be judged.

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The alternative view is that if hunters aren't willing to have conversations about ethics, others will have those conversations for them.

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Originally Posted by welsh

The alternative view is that if hunters aren't willing to have conversations about ethics, others will have those conversations for them.

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You mean like Anti's deciding that the best way to control coyote numbers is to not shoot them so that they don't have to have babies to replace the ones we shoot? Yup that is how they think.

Weighty issues.

The impacts Boomers are going to have in various industries while not known, are projected. I don't see why the logic wouldn't apply to hunting. The province is also aging, I could be wrong but I think the currect mean is around 42-43 and is projected to increase to 45 in the not too distant future.

Now lets consider youth today.
Cell Phones, PS4 and Netflix over getting out in to the outdoors

Now lets consider urban sprawl and other things.

I took my daughter and her BF camping this past weekend.
It was his first experience camping....period. I was shocked when he found fresh water clams and he was like a 10yr boy discovering things...

We talked a lot about the nature things be it bears, White tails, and more. So much of that was his first real world experience, eye opening to some degree.
Kudos to him, he was not only enamoured, had a great time and keen to learn. By the end of the weekend he was helping to build a bed of coals so we could cook over an open fire.


I couldn't help but wonder given various things if in time things wont be vastly different from today. When many already are disconnected from nature and the outdoors.

"Our children"
The vast majority of whom.......................

I wouldn't be surprised to see big game hunter numbers on the decline. I have owned my deer camp for 20 yrs and have seen our neighboring camps decline in numbers. Access to big game ground is getting more and more difficult. As population increases hunter numbers should also to some extent. It would be interesting to see the stats on percentage of population that hunts? With the booming population in both snow and Canada geese and the Southern access to this hunting I wouldn't be surprised if waterfowl is growing faster than other hunts. I see lots of people with big long beards it seems. I also think hunters go yhrough phases as they age. I was a devoted big game hunter for years. Moose, deer, bear, caribou, antelope. Rifle and compound bow. Now I truly couldn't care less if I bag another moose or bear in my remaining years. Still love deer camp but really don't care if I shoot one. Doing a duck hunt next month, havent done that in years. When in CEGEP in Quebec we use to hunt snows every day they were in. I now love the simplicity and numerous oppurtunities of upland hunting more and more.im not giving up on big game but it won't be the focal point of my hunting plans going forward.

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Originally Posted by tbasse01

MikePal

the answer is pretty simple for hunter recruitment

I am a new hunter 1 year

I went to the course with 7 other people we took pal non and restricted and hunting course

all 7 of us purchased only small game license for predator hunting

I am the only one who has bought turkey and deer tags of all my buddies

and with the older hunters passing on or not hunting due to health the numbers are going to drop

shooting sports are huge and growing and a lot just take the hunting course "just in case " but 90% are for shooting sports and the hunter course is just a by product

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Thanks for posting some insights, sheds some light on the topic. Your experience seems to reflect what is happening and why Hunter Recruitment is failing.

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Originally Posted by terrym

I wouldn't be surprised to see big game hunter numbers on the decline. I have owned my deer camp for 20 yrs and have seen our neighboring camps decline in numbers. Access to big game ground is getting more and more difficult. As population increases hunter numbers should also to some extent. It would be interesting to see the stats on percentage of population that hunts? With the booming population in both snow and Canada geese and the Southern access to this hunting I wouldn't be surprised if waterfowl is growing faster than other hunts. I see lots of people with big long beards it seems. I also think hunters go yhrough phases as they age. I was a devoted big game hunter for years. Moose, deer, bear, caribou, antelope. Rifle and compound bow. Now I truly couldn't care less if I bag another moose or bear in my remaining years. Still love deer camp but really don't care if I shoot one. Doing a duck hunt next month, havent done that in years. When in CEGEP in Quebec we use to hunt snows every day they were in. I now love the simplicity and numerous oppurtunities of upland hunting more and more.im not giving up on big game but it won't be the focal point of my hunting plans going forward.

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Most of your questions were answered in the thread Terry...

Only 3% of the population Hunt (and declining)....Waterfowl is one of the few that is not in decline presently, with an small annual growth of about 1%, but that was after steep declines for many years that have not been recovered.

I wonder how many actual "hunting/man days" still happen? Some probably used to buy a license even if they didn't get out? With the prices now I bet many stopped doing that.

That's one of those things that's very difficult to measure. The only practical way to get it is through surveys, and the problem with surveys is you always want to measure something you should have measured 20 years ago.

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Originally Posted by JBen

...I took my daughter and her BF camping this past weekend.
It was his first experience camping....period. I was shocked when he found fresh water clams and he was like a 10yr boy discovering things...

...I couldn't help but wonder given various things if in time things wont be vastly different from today. When many already are disconnected from nature and the outdoors.

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What you said reminded me of a young kid I met about 40 years ago. He came out to a friends farm in Quebec. He was an intercity kid from Chicago. When he saw where milk actually came from he almost passed out. Would not drink milk for the rest of the visit. I asked him what was wrong and he said that all his life he thought milk was produced just like Coca Cola. When I explained to him where his eggs and hamburgers came from that was almost the limit for him. I thought he was pulling my leg but he was't.


One thought is getting them to come along with someone to see what an experience a hunt can be. I know that they can't actually participate in the hunt but considering we are trying to recruit I would imagine it would be Ok.

As a new hunter (first year hunting started last Sept 2014) who is starting this sport in his 40s I've found it pretty frustrating to get started. I don't come from a hunting background and I've had to teach myself what I can by reading and trial and error. There was a lot of trial and error and not much success for me last year.

I'm near Ottawa and my experience is that it's difficult to find land that is within a reasonable distance that isn't already crawling with hunters. I walked the Marlborough forest for a while and then stayed out of it - never saw a rabbit, spooked grouse maybe twice, never saw a deer there. Saw plenty of other hunters though.

In the spring I found some new (to me) crown land for turkey hunting and the most excitement I had was when I called in another hunter (sexxy turkey noises!) I'm glad we didn't shoot each other.

I'm loving being out in the woods. I'm having fun toting my shotgun around and having a purpose when I'm out there. The downside is it's not so easy to figure it out all on your own. I'm considering hunting with a local guide this coming year at least once so I can observe and learn.

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Originally Posted by walkinandsittin

As a new hunter (first year hunting started last Sept 2014) who is starting this sport in his 40s I've found it pretty frustrating to get started. I don't come from a hunting background and I've had to teach myself what I can by reading and trial and error. There was a lot of trial and error and not much success for me last year.

I'm near Ottawa and my experience is that it's difficult to find land that is within a reasonable distance that isn't already crawling with hunters. I walked the Marlborough forest for a while and then stayed out of it - never saw a rabbit, spooked grouse maybe twice, never saw a deer there. Saw plenty of other hunters though.

In the spring I found some new (to me) crown land for turkey hunting and the most excitement I had was when I called in another hunter (sexxy turkey noises!) I'm glad we didn't shoot each other.

I'm loving being out in the woods. I'm having fun toting my shotgun around and having a purpose when I'm out there. The downside is it's not so easy to figure it out all on your own. I'm considering hunting with a local guide this coming year at least once so I can observe and learn.

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Have you checked out the waterfowl section there is someone from Ottawa area looking for company only catch need to be able to hunt weekdays.

Hello from a new will-be-hunter in Toronto.
Thank you very much for bring up this topic.

I took my hunting course last year. Never have a real hunting yet so far.
I have 2 boys of 13 and 18, they showed much interests in hunting. Went to Parry sound and Loring 3 times for scouting. We realized hunting is hard to start for guys living in city. Boys put more interests and time into range shooting now. Bad news.
It seems there is a big gap of trial and fail for the Newbie.

Still trying to locate a right place for the deer season.
Any advice on deer camp will be very much appreciated.

Not sure how to help with big game. Hunt camps if you can are a good way. Others like WF, Turkey, even bear. Guides are a viable option to help pick up first hand knowledge, while trying to develop your own skills, places and experience.

Good article on that in the June issue.

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Originally Posted by walkinandsittin

As a new hunter (first year hunting started last Sept 2014) who is starting this sport in his 40s I've found it pretty frustrating to get started. I don't come from a hunting background and I've had to teach myself what I can by reading and trial and error. There was a lot of trial and error and not much success for me last year.

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Thanks for posting....I was actually surprised when I was looking up the info here that there is a huge percentage (55%) of the new recruits that are older. I would have assumed that most would have been youth.

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In Ontario right now 20% of the people taking hunter education courses are women. Another roughly 25% are youth. Last year we put 25,000 new hunters through the hunter education program. You can do the math—you're probably better at it than I am—but 45% of those 25,000 were either young people or women.

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I would have imagined that it would be easier for older guys to find their way around and network into hunt camps etc. But your saying it's still a challenge.

Good luck...

I would say, looking at recent posts from new hunters, that the scorn many people here heap on people from Toronto (& from cities in general) reflects a problem. You don't encourage people to take up hunting by calling them citiots.

Agreed welsh.
In other threads pertaining to "Cecil", I have referenced the we (and this includes non hunters).

Take any topic/subject/issue in life. Does anything ever get resolved, improved if all people from any camp is point fingers?

Here's a "thought". If we can agree that one issue as it pertains to the various conservation issues,,or bears or XY is because youth, people in cities are disconnected from nature. That doesn't mean they are dumb, or ignorant or...

That we need them? Today and tomorrow?

Just consider the challenges for people in the cities. Getting land is becoming harder and harder. Ranges to practise or sight in. Mentors and more. I have a ton of connections/friends, open invites to many places through out Ont, thanks to what I do. I find it hard, very........

"We" should be thinking about doing a 180 and how we can get more people from cities, especially youth.Back to nature and the outdoors. Not making them feel unwelcome or orher.

As an older (41) new hunter, I took the course last year with a friend. He hasn't done any hunting and also didn't buy a license. I don't see him doing so this year either.

I hunted public land last year and almost landed a buck, but due to inexperience I let him get away. I will definitely be hitting the woods again this year and will hopefully be better prepared.

From a new hunter's perspective, I had very little support (I did get some advice from fellow archers at my club) and I find it hard to find hunting land. I'm lucky in that I live close to public land, but I can't imagine it would be easy for others who don't have that.

This is a significant barrier to cross for new hunters. Mix into that the fact that hunting isn't easy and I can understand why lots of people give up after their first year.

On a brighter note, my new hunter and I are talking and things are going good. He has some gear and a little experience so that helps. I am looking forward to hunting some geese this fall with him in the early season, and maybe it will be the start of a life of memories and camp stories..

I was at a ofah zone meeting today and one stat that was mentioned was that about 20% of the people taking the hunter safety course are women, whereas in the past that was closer to 4%. Not sure what role that plays, if any.

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Originally Posted by chrispret

As an older (41) new hunter, I took the course last year with a friend. He hasn't done any hunting and also didn't buy a license. I don't see him doing so this year either

Mix into that the fact that hunting isn't easy and I can understand why lots of people give up after their first year.

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Sounds like your situation is the norm, with only 50% of the course grads buying hunting licenses. Not that it's wrong, because having people get out and becoming more familiar with Hunting is always a good thing.

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Originally Posted by kickingfrog

I was at a ofah zone meeting today and one stat that was mentioned was that about 20% of the people taking the hunter safety course are women, whereas in the past that was closer to 4%. Not sure what role that plays, if any.

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Hi Dorthy, I think as we become a more gender neutral society, women seem to feel more comfortable immersing themselves in non traditional pastimes. I see/saw it with my own two daughters.

Unfortunately, like I mentioned before, I heard some troubling stories from guys visiting our camp that guys were getting their wives/Gfs etc to take the course just so they could get extra tags.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Sounds like your situation is the norm, with only 50% of the course grads hunting licenses. Not that it's wrong, because having people get out and becoming more familiar with Hunting is always a good thing.



Hi Dorthy, I think as we become a more gender neutral society, women seem more feel comfortable immersing themselves in non traditional pastimes. I see/saw it with my own two daughters.

Unfortunately, like I mentioned before, I heard some troubling stories from guys visiting our camp that guys were getting their wives/Gfs etc to take the course just so they could get extra tags.

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That is just poaching, unless they are out hunting but I know I have heard it before as well.
Give the tag to the husband who goes out hunting.

I guess I missed the part where the current percent of women was weighed against the former.

I also get my straw men and scarecrows mixed up as well so what do I know.

Mike, this is a fascinating analysis, thanks. Very interesting.

It's an interesting problem for sure. When my dad was growing up, he and his friends and his cousins spent lots of time in the bush, including hunting. Far from a country boy, he grew up in downtown Montreal.

When I was growing up, not a single one of my friends or cousins was into hunting. In thirty years of living in Toronto, I've known a grand total of two people who've been into it. Were it not for the bug being inextricably planted at a very young age, there's no question I wouldn't be into it now.

The citiots thing is counterproductive, but fair IMHO. It's the manifestation of resentment of people in cities forming opinions and making decisions about things of which they are almost certainly wholly ignorant, based mostly on emotion. If I had to deal with black bears up the wazoo because some architects in the Annex don't like the idea of the spring bear hunt, I'd be resentful too. Unfortunately the vast vast majority are simply disconnected from the idea of killing and eating something.

It's funny though; the whole local - sustainable - organic - free range trend is doing the most to change this that I've ever seen in my life. Explain hunting in those terms, and everyone but the irrationally biased are in favour, even the most leftist folks I know in the dark heart of downtown TO. The problem is you may as well suggest they fly to the moon as take up hunting, for all the obstacles in their way.

What's the reduction in moose tags going to do to hunter numbers? The same number of gangs out there or will we see a decline? How's it shaking out in reality - fewer tags per gang or just fewer gangs period? Dumb Q maybe, but I've never hunted Bullwinkle here, our camp was on the QC side.

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Originally Posted by Flashman

The citiots thing is counterproductive, but fair IMHO. It's the manifestation of resentment of people in cities forming opinions and making decisions about things of which they are almost certainly wholly ignorant, based mostly on emotion.

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I don’t think that it’s about being ‘called’ a cidiot….I think it has more to do with them feeling like their being perceived as a cidiot when they have to leave their comfort zone and head out into the rural areas and meet with farmers to ask for permission to hunt on their property.

It’s hard to come face to face with a yokel, back woods, redneck and ask him a favour.

Name calling works both ways and is just trash talk. If your worried about it, you need to go back to Grade 1, where they covered that...LOL.

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Originally Posted by Flashman

Mike, this is a fascinating analysis, thanks. Very interesting.

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Thanks, it's been a truly educational exercise, looking thru the various levels of data to try and get a picture of what is ailing our Hunting Heritage.

I hate the fact that the only real positive intervention I've found is coming from organizations who see Hunting from the economic impact that it generates; be it tourism or the MNR requiring license income to support the SPA.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

I don’t think that it’s about being ‘called’ a cidiot….I think it has more to do with them feeling like their being perceived as a cidiot when they have to leave their comfort zone and head out into the rural areas and meet with farmers to ask for permission to hunt on their property.

It’s hard to come face to face with a yokel, back woods, redneck and ask him a favour.

Name calling works both ways and is just trash talk. If your worried about it, you need to go back to Grade 1, where they covered that...LOL.

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Makes sense. Just to play the devil's advocate though, even the well meaning folks can do idiot stuff even with the best of intentions if they're from the city and unfamiliar with how things work on a farm or property. Stay out of fields. Stay away from crops and farm equipment. Close the gates you open. Tell the landowner about downed spots in the fence (or better yet fix them if you can and then tell him), that kind of stuff. No particular fault of theirs, just unfamiliarity. And what farmer has the time or inclination to make sure you won't eff his place up? Hard enough job as it is without having to worry about some guys up from TO for the day running around your back 40 with rifles.

One guy I have a great relationship with now was having problems with his Kubota's crank bearings when I walked up... offered to take a look and give him a hand - I dunno how many toasted motorcycle engine bearings I've dealt with, but it's a lot. Got his oil starvation problem troubleshot, and that was the start of a great relationship.

My unsolicited advice to guys who are hesitant to ask for the favour of permission is don't. Don't ask. Offer something first, and ask for permission to hunt in exchange. You'll probably be more confident if you show up and offer to assist with whatever you're good at than showing up just asking for a favour off the bat. I always ask for coyote permission first too, and wouldn't you know it but a lot of the time after a year or two that turns into an offer to come back for deer season once he knows you're not a ding dong.

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Originally Posted by kickingfrog

I was at a ofah zone meeting today and one stat that was mentioned was that about 20% of the people taking the hunter safety course are women, whereas in the past that was closer to 4%. Not sure what role that plays, if any.

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I had the pleasure of meeting a lovely lady yesterday at breakfast in town who's husband and 3 of his friends own a Hunt Camp up near the park. Actually she says she owns their 1/4 share , its in her name and she never been there. More interesting she has taken the OFHA One stop course, got her PAL and her Outdoors card. But, surprisingly, she has never even been to the camp and never hunted nor intends to.

It was just to 'use' her Card etc.....same with the wive's for the other 3 guys....so I guess it's more than a rumour.

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Originally Posted by kickingfrog

I think many of the "new" hunters are at least a generation removed from hunting and deer require more mentoring then small game or water fowl. Deer also take some time (and money) to invest right from scouting through to butchering. I can go hunting in the morning and have fresh grouse for lunch.... Hey, it could happen.:silly:

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The above is very true. I'm a new hunter myself, got my licences in 2012, and here I have no family member or mentor to teach me. Even if I managed to kill a dear, I would not know what to do with it, so there would have to be the cost of butchering, on top of the tag cost, ammo, gas, etc. I think these big game tags cost too much, especially turkey. $28 for a turkey tag, and if you don't get one, you lose it and come next season you have to buy a new one? They should at least allow to carry a turkey tag into the future until one can fill it.
If the MNR increase the prices of big game tags, as some suggest, they will sell even fewer tags.

Well guys , I guess I'm a slightly older hunter . I've been hunting and fishing since I was ~ 10 years old ; that was ~ 67 years ago . Hunting and fishing are still in my blood and I continue to partake ; however , I couldn't care less whether I ever shoot another species of big-game again . Over the course of the decades I've collected my share of it . --- Physically I'm still fit enough (working-out to keep from deteriorating) but I'd rather give some "YOUNGSTERS" a chance to experience what I did in my life-time . --- Yes , I hunt and fish whenever I have a chance (in season) but don't feel the urge to make an effort to harvest "bush-beef" anymore . --- Small-game and fish are still on the agenda . --- I fish about 3 times a week (during the season) and hunt whenever the opportunity presents itself . The main-difference between now and then : Now I generally only kill for consumption ; I eat what I collect . Previously (when I was younger) I shot a lot of "nuisance-game" (groundhogs , porcupines , skunks , raccoons etc.) and was quite fanatical about it . --- If I had a BUCK for every creature that I've "taken" in my life-time I could --------------------------- . Oh well , you wouldn't believe me anyway ! --- More oldtimers should refrain from harvesting big-game in order to allow the younger generation the same opportunity .

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Originally Posted by Gunner 38

-- More oldtimers should refrain from harvesting big-game in order to allow the younger generation the same opportunity .

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I think the point is Gunner, there are fewer and fewer of the young generation showing any interest in taking up the reins.

Mike,
I have another source of data to add to the discussion. I have read this report in the past with an intent to use it as a backdrop to a letter to my MP. Interestingly enough, according to this report the numbers for hunting are dropping in the US as well. It does not provide attribution of a cause for the decline but it does show a gradual reduction ( p 16).
In addition to the loss of hunting areas I can't help but lean toward the decline in Canada being related to the anti-gun culture following the Ecole Polytechnique.
There is potential to grow the numbers again and I believe one way is to promote it thru tourism. Doesn't take long for people to realize increased economic growth associated with hunting would be a good thing. It needs more government support and sponsored education such that people come to understand the hunting is not 'killing' and it is a valuable and necessary conservation tool.


http://en.destinationcanada.com/site...scape_rev1.pdf

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Originally Posted by DGearyFTE

In addition to the loss of hunting areas I can't help but lean toward the decline in Canada being related to the anti-gun culture following the Ecole Polytechnique.

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I wonder if, in general, there is a more mature awareness between casual Gun ownership and Hunting in Canada. I can see your point as far as Gun ownership without purpose, ie; did Ecole Polytech stigmatize gun ownership outside the need for a gun for hunting purposes ?

Maybe your right, maybe there was a subtle shift in acceptance of having a gun in the house by women who were scared by the incident, so their husbands/boyfriends no longer 'allowed' to own guns.

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Originally Posted by MikePal

Maybe your right, maybe there was a subtle shift in acceptance of having a gun in the house by women who were scared by the incident, so their husbands/boyfriends no longer 'allowed' to own guns.

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It's the schools too, Mike. My granddaughter has been totally brainwashed into being anti-gun/anti-hunting by her teachers.

When my son see's information about people wanting to ban guns, he goes "Gun don't kill people, people kill people" :)

We have talked in depth about safe handling and also about people wanting to ban guns as well as people who try to interfere with hunting.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLakePete

It's the schools too, Mike. My granddaughter has been totally brainwashed into being anti-gun/anti-hunting by her teachers.

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When Mulcair becomes PM with Trudough propping him up hunter "recruitment" will be the last thing to worry about. All the imbeciles in Quebec who own semis and elected Angry Tom may also be "angry" when they have to give up their favourite Moose rifles and duck guns.

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Originally Posted by Marko

The above is very true. I'm a new hunter myself, got my licences in 2012, and here I have no family member or mentor to teach me. Even if I managed to kill a dear, I would not know what to do with it, so there would have to be the cost of butchering, on top of the tag cost, ammo, gas, etc. I think these big game tags cost too much, especially turkey. $28 for a turkey tag, and if you don't get one, you lose it and come next season you have to buy a new one? They should at least allow to carry a turkey tag into the future until one can fill it.
If the MNR increase the prices of big game tags, as some suggest, they will sell even fewer tags.

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I agree with you and since I've got my hunting licence i haven't been able to get anyone who is experienced in hunting to give me some pointers or go out once or twice with me to impart some knowledge. I've just been trying to get small game and I still have no idea what I am doing. I've met a few newbies and gone out with them but we generally come back with nothing and its just one long hike in the woods. Not that the hike is bad but i'd like to come back with something.

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Originally Posted by r-ice

I agree with you and since I've got my hunting licence i haven't been able to get anyone who is experienced in hunting to give me some pointers or go out once or twice with me to impart some knowledge. I've just been trying to get small game and I still have no idea what I am doing. I've met a few newbies and gone out with them but we generally come back with nothing and its just one long hike in the woods. Not that the hike is bad but i'd like to come back with something.

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pretty much explains my situation. i'm the first one in the family to get a hunting license, and had to encourage and pay for my dad's. I said we used to fish and why not do hunting. We were surrounded by some family friends who hunt and own firearms so we followed suit. Finally we managed to get one of them to take us deer hunting; he already took us to hunt for small game.

I personally had gone out most of the time solo for small game/waterfowl but ended up coming back home empty handed, its a big disappointment. However I'm not willing to give up just like that, it takes a lot more patience and understand the woods better. Although people with less discipline might quit faster because there is no reward and just disappointments.

I had been in position to acquire the game but retrieval would've been tricky or unpleasant; for example Holland Marsh, since I don't have the right gear or know the depths of canal, its not worth the risk, so I don't shoot any game. Overall, I enjoy the experience and woods, the more I go out; the more I become attentive, especially when I notice tracks, droppings, wind and the silence/noise. Silence is the most freakiest without the wind in the woods, especially when you're solo.

oh biggest factor I personally think is alienation of gun clubs; for me its very troublesome to acquire access to a gun/rifle clubs in general. the T.I.T.S has a public accessible trap shooting which I love because while on EI I can't blow money on membership, so $9 per trap + ammo justifies my expenses for once a month pleasure. The worst part is finding a range with 100 to 300 yard for rifle sighting or practice. I mean Silverdale for me is 200+ km.... it's too exhausting to drive through the bloody GTA just to get there for public access.

Sharon Gun club is the closest, but the membership and share acquirement is making it sound a gun club for the elites. Then you wonder why there are firearm discharges on crown land, when you don't give them a safer venue to shoot in or at.

When I was in Arizona (best experience), I loved the fact that someone asked me what I would like; I told them that I was a Canadian with a firearm permit and would like to learn how to shoot handguns. They said go with 100 9mm, try a gun, don't like it? come back and try another one. Here is your lane for one hour. Enjoy!

I learned to shoot, safely handle a handgun, I tried 5 different ones and realized which one was the best for me (Sig Sauers) and I shot an M4 semi automatic. Best fun I had and walked out with a smile. That's how got me into firearms, learning it slowly and properly, but not being discouraged. However Hunting does present a challenge, but you also need a safe venue to practice proper trigger control and handling... and where can a new hunter do that without demand for membership in Ontario? Silverdale.

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Originally Posted by poltrojan

oh biggest factor I personally think is alienation of gun clubs; for me its very troublesome to acquire access to a gun/rifle clubs in general. the T.I.T.S has a public accessible trap shooting which I love because while on EI I can't blow money on membership, so $9 per trap + ammo justifies my expenses for once a month pleasure. The worst part is finding a range with 100 to 300 yard for rifle sighting or practice. I mean Silverdale for me is 200+ km.... it's too exhausting to drive through the bloody GTA just to get there for public access.

Sharon Gun club is the closest, but the membership and share acquirement is making it sound a gun club for the elites. Then you wonder why there are firearm discharges on crown land, when you don't give them a safer venue to shoot in or at.

When I was in Arizona (best experience), I loved the fact that someone asked me what I would like; I told them that I was a Canadian with a firearm permit and would like to learn how to shoot handguns. They said go with 100 9mm, try a gun, don't like it? come back and try another one. Here is your lane for one hour. Enjoy!

I learned to shoot, safely handle a handgun, I tried 5 different ones and realized which one was the best for me (Sig Sauers) and I shot an M4 semi automatic. Best fun I had and walked out with a smile. That's how got me into firearms, learning it slowly and properly, but not being discouraged. However Hunting does present a challenge, but you also need a safe venue to practice proper trigger control and handling... and where can a new hunter do that without demand for membership in Ontario? Silverdale.

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lol the same people who complain about shooting on crown land also complain about gun clubs.

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Originally Posted by kickingfrog

I was at a ofah zone meeting today and one stat that was mentioned was that about 20% of the people taking the hunter safety course are women, whereas in the past that was closer to 4%. Not sure what role that plays, if any.

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My wife and myself took the hunter ed two weeks ago. out of the approx 18 students at least 80% were femail. oh and by the way we both passed with flying colours, now to find land to hunt.

Don't be afraid to ask if you could be doing something different to find game. At the same time maybe where your hunting is the issue maybe there is nothing there. I know that in some of the locations I hunt you will rarely find a rabbit. My deer hunting area I have seen 2 rabbits in 18 years. I go to a different area for rabbits.

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Originally Posted by r-ice

I agree with you and since I've got my hunting licence i haven't been able to get anyone who is experienced in hunting to give me some pointers or go out once or twice with me to impart some knowledge. I've just been trying to get small game and I still have no idea what I am doing. I've met a few newbies and gone out with them but we generally come back with nothing and its just one long hike in the woods. Not that the hike is bad but i'd like to come back with something.

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Are revenues including the funds from Non Resident. There are fewer non residents visiting Ontario. So you have more recruitment of Ontario youth but the ones paying top dollar license fees are not buying licenses anymore in Ontario. Just a thought. Resident deer about $50.00. A non resident deer $230.00.

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Originally Posted by r-ice

lol the same people who complain about shooting on crown land also complain about gun clubs.

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I'm not sure if you understand what I am trying to convey here, where I live there is a sign says "discharge of firearm without intent to hunting is prohibited" for arguments sake if there is a chance of 1 to a million that an enforcement unit happens to be there while I am discharging without intent to hunt; but say plinking or hitting a paper target, its still prohibited.

I'm not complaining about gun clubs; some are "full" others less welcoming and very few have public access. I only need to use my rifle twice in a year, doesn't justify spending $500+ for a membership.

Lots of guys are taking both PAL and Hunter Ed. But most of them end up just shooting on ranges and tactical BS...
not so many nature and hunting enthusiast like before when PAL was taken mainly to hunt...After all zombie apocalypse movies ,more and more guys are just piling guns and ammo at home,practising on gun ranges and waiting for D-day...

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Originally Posted by chris lavoie

Are revenues including the funds from Non Resident. There are fewer non residents visiting Ontario. So you have more recruitment of Ontario youth but the ones paying top dollar license fees are not buying licenses anymore in Ontario. Just a thought. Resident deer about $50.00. A non resident deer $230.00.

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There is not much opportunity for non-res. without guides other than kenora area WTdeer that is worth paying so much...for much less prices in other provinces you can experience better hunting and variety of game. Much less red tape and private properties than in Ontario and cheaper tags. I think we have most expensive tags both res.and non-res. than any other province...

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Originally Posted by Drastic711

After all zombie apocalypse movies ,more and more guys are just piling guns and ammo at home,practising on gun ranges and waiting for D-day...

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I don't know how prevalent it is in Canada, but your absolutely right in regards to the South of us....the preppers and hoarders crippled the ammo supply for yrs after Obama was elected .... gun sales sky rocketed and the industry is thriving.

I don't use a public range, but it sounds like they run at max; filled memberships and fully booked range time. Must make it hard for a guy to get into shooting as a hobby.

Just drive to Silverdale on weekend and you will see guys better equiped than any SWAT team...they bug me before but now i dont care any more,however there is your answer regarding newly recruitment and licence sales...

For what its worth, in 2012 I was one of those 21,000 who took his Hunter Safety and Firearms safety course. I purchased an outdoor card, and got a small game license from 2012 to present. Despite taking the turkey course, and purchasing firearms, I have yet to hunt deer or turkey, the main goal of obtaining my licenses.

My reasons for not following though as of yet are as follows.
1. There is more to hunting then pulling a trigger. The idea of gutting a deer on my own with the bare minimum learned in the hunter safety course, and a few youtube videos I have watched concern me a lot. I had intended to go out with an experienced hunter, but did not get my paper work in time for the 2012 deer hunt. Between that hunt and 2013 season he has become unhealthy and can no longer hunt.

2. Thus the second issue, costs. The second issue is costs / knowing what to buy. I had purchased my firearms, hunter orange / camo clothing. I had intended to borrow / use my friends equipment for everything else (knives, skinning equipment, butchering equipment etc). While I am sure I could still ask him, if feel like a dick, so I am slowly figuring out what I need to have and am buying it when I see it on sale.

3. Access. Getting permission to hunt on land is way harder then I thought. Again, I was dependent on my buddy for this. Having to do it on your own, with no experience takes time. Then there is the complicated matter of understanding our laws to figure out what kind of tag I need and when to be able to hunt where I find land and what lotteries / draws I need to enter to get them.

4. Time. My son moved up to AA hockey in 2013, and as any hockey parent knows you pretty much put your own life on hold. You can't hunt on Sundays. Saturday is always hockey of some sort, which leans Mon - Fri to hunt, meaning vacation days. As someone who only gets 3 weeks of vacation a year, its a tuff sell to the family to be able to take 2 days off to go deer hunting, when that could be used over x-mas, march break, easter, etc when the rest of the family is off.

All of those reasons combined lead me to be part of your statistics. I do still intend to go deer & turkey hunting, but it might be a few more years down the line.

I agree with @itgeek81. I am hoping to find a mentor. I had a family friend offer but now he is too ill. I have begun to approach pro shops and ask for advice. I do not want to steal your location. I do not want to steal your secrets. I am only trying to learn what we did generations ago.

As well, here in the GTA, the previous mayor and council closed all of the ranges. Now there is no where to get into to practice.

I would love to not be a statistic, but how do you start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by kw70

I agree with @itgeek81. I am hoping to find a mentor. I had a family friend offer but now he is too ill. I have begun to approach pro shops and ask for advice. I do not want to steal your location. I do not want to steal your secrets. I am only trying to learn what we did generations ago.

As well, here in the GTA, the previous mayor and council closed all of the ranges. Now there is no where to get into to practice.

I would love to not be a statistic, but how do you start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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by going out to places just like me out to WMA/Crown Land. lots of scouting, researching and patience..... lots of patience.
12 expeditions so far... still come up empty handed. but i'm not gonna give up yet. I found out that I love exploring out in the woods and through the bush. my 870 express got the marks to prove it.

you can take up on the offer when you get a chance to be guided by seniors/experienced here. i finally got one to go out deer hunting, thanks to our family friend who finally decided to take us. jeez.

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Originally Posted by kw70

I agree with @itgeek81. I am hoping to find a mentor. I had a family friend offer but now he is too ill. I have begun to approach pro shops and ask for advice. I do not want to steal your location. I do not want to steal your secrets. I am only trying to learn what we did generations ago.

As well, here in the GTA, the previous mayor and council closed all of the ranges. Now there is no where to get into to practice.

I would love to not be a statistic, but how do you start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I finally got accepted into a gun club so I have a place to practice shooting. Im aloud to bring 3 guests a year so if you want we could hook up some Saturday and do some target shooting. (Club is in orangeville)

I finished hunting class in Feb this year. I bought a turkey tag. I went out 5 times and got no bird.

Hunting is harder than I thought. There are so many birds around in cities/towns. But when I went to country where hunting is allowed there was no bird. Finally I got some birds at a game farm.

I bought migration bird license this fall. Since I have no land to hunt I will use a guide service. If I find I love hunting I will buy my own land.

One advice to new hunters is to read more and ask none. There are some experienced hunters having fun/excitement to discourage new hunters. They are very disturbing. They judge people in a unreasonable way.