Question about the regs. If a pike takes my fish and i net it can i keep it?

I was fishing with my son last weekend and had a big pike grab his sunfish 3 times, i was able to get it dockside but i didnt have a net and didnt get a hook in it so i wasnt able to land it before it broke off the line off the ultralight gear i was using.

So it got me thinking would it be legal to keep that pike if I landed it? Technically I never got a hook into the pike, it just wouldnt let go of the fish, and the regs forbid you from catching a pike with a net or using gamefish as bait.

Just a hypothetical, but curious as to your thoughts

I think you have to put a hook through the pike's mouth while you are fishing. Thats my take.

Ya. I would say the pike has to go back. I realize there is the law and also the spirit of the law if u will. did u break the spirit of the law if a pike grabs your sunfish by accident and u land them both? I would say not but a CO may believe u were using sunfish for bait and may charge u for breaking the law. So in the spirit of being aware of the regulations u already mentioned I would release the pike if it were me.

I think its a catch.... Lots of hypotheticals but I think its a go/catch in my books...

I would say legal....

Nope, I don't think it's legal, I don't think sunfish is in the bait list even if there was no limit.
I also think you have to hook it thru the mouth to be legal.
Now, would I keep it if I wanted some fish to fry.....

If its not legal, post the section of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act stating so.

I would say it is legal. I highly doubt any CO would say much other than "Cool", you caught it with the fish you had just caught on the way in.

I wouldn't worry about it.

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Originally Posted by brent

If its not legal, post the section of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act stating so.

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It says you have to hook it through the mouth to keep it. Just sayin

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

I would say it is legal. I highly doubt any CO would say much other than "Cool", you caught it with the fish you had just caught on the way in.

I wouldn't worry about it.

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Yup just common sense... Maybe it's illegal technically because it wasn't hooked or sunfish is a gamefish and can't be used as bait, but I highly doubt any CO would care even if he did see it, and he would have to be there right at that exact moment... And it's not like you tried to poach it...

And the chances of a CO standing over you while you catch it is about a hundred times less than you winning lotto max three times.

Since it's posed as a hypothetical question the hypothetical answer should be : NO , it's not legal to keep it ! --- I just wonder how many ''holier than thou characters'' would actually throw the Pike back in . --- I'm not advocating illegal practices but don't even remotely believe that the majority of ''fish-hogs'' would think twice about it .

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Originally Posted by Gunner 38

Since it's posed as a hypothetical question the hypothetical answer should be : NO , it's not legal to keep it ! --- I just wonder how many ''holier than thou characters'' would actually throw the Pike back in . --- I'm not advocating illegal practices but don't even remotely believe that the majority of ''fish-hogs'' would think twice about it .

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Probably 90+% of Ontarians "Break the Law"
Here are two common ways:
Party Fishing
Keeping a fish hooked on the face--- not inside the mouth

In the instance of the first post-- keeping the pike is "illegal"--- sunfish are not legal as bait-- the pike was not hooked in the mouth.
What would I do?
This forum does not condone the posting of illegal activity--- even if those activities feel ethically OK.

So is gar fishing with yarn/rope illegal as there is no hooks used, as well as worm balls in pantyhose without hooks for bullheads?
John

Nothing in the regs states that a fish has to be hooked through the mouth.
It just states any fish that is hooked other than in the mouth has to be released.
Nothing states it must be hooked.
In the OP's scenario it was not foul hooked.
Also meets the definition of angling.
Also in this scenario the sunfish was not being used as bait but the pike chose to ignore this fact.

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9. (1) No person shall fish with

• (a) a hook used in such a manner as to pierce or hook a fish in any part of the body other than the mouth;
  
• (b) a gaff;
  
• (c) a snare;
  
• (d) a snagger; or
  
• (e) a spear gun.

(2) Despite paragraph (1)(b), a person may use a gaff, other than a spring gaff, to assist in the landing of a fish.

(3) No person shall retain a fish that has been pierced or hooked in any part of the body other than the mouth while angling except a fish that has been pierced or hooked while being landed with a gaff that is not a spring gaff.

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Above is the section from the Ontario Fishery Regulations that looks like it applies. With regards to the sunfish, as long as you weren't "using" it as bait I don't think that alone would make the catch illegal.
My opinion would be that as long as the sunfish is in the pike's mouth and was not used as the bait the catch would be legal. The pike was not pierced in any part of the body.

All the CO's care about is you fishing license and boat license now adays

Further to Woddsman's and Redd Foxx's posts, here's how the reg's define angling:

"Angling – Angling means fishing with a line that is held in the hand or
attached to a rod that is held in the hand or closely attended."

There's nothing that say's you even have to use a hook, so yeah, if as long as you weren't actively using the sunfish as "bait", you should be ok here.

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Originally Posted by Woodsman

Nothing in the regs states that a fish has to be hooked through the mouth.
It just states any fish that is hooked other than in the mouth has to be released.
Nothing states it must be hooked.
In the OP's scenario it was not foul hooked.
Also meets the definition of angling.
Also in this scenario the sunfish was not being used as bait but the pike chose to ignore this fact.

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Agreed....

People keep pike?

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Originally Posted by sakimano

People keep pike?

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That is the best post yet. Lofnl.

My first on the site. :)

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Originally Posted by sakimano

My first on the site. :)

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Well ya nailed it buddy! We're going to get along great and there are a few others on here that are of like mind!
Welcome!

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Originally Posted by sakimano

People keep pike?

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Nothing wrong with pike, sakimono. I used to think the same thing. Once I learned the proper way to fillet them I started keeping the odd one here and there. Out of cold water then are every bit as good as walleye, some people say even better. Welcome aboard.

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Originally Posted by bushman

Nothing wrong with pike, sakimono. I used to think the same thing. Once I learned the proper way to fillet them I started keeping the odd one here and there. Out of cold water then are every bit as good as walleye, some people say even better. Welcome aboard.

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I love winter pike too. Up my way in the summer though the meat gets a bit sour tasting.

I think it's incidental. So long as you are not using the sunfish as bait ie.casting it back out you are fine. I have had a similar experience with hammer handle pike hitting a lure and getting smashed by bigger ones. Pretty common on one lake we go to up in Timmins. Maybe this is a question for the "ask a co" section of the magazine.

ps. selfishly I would like to tell you pike tastes terrible and has too many bones and is high in cholesterol and fat and sugar pcbs and mercury. Leave them for me and I will keep them.

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Originally Posted by sakimano

People keep pike?

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Having issue with your fillet knife?

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Originally Posted by sakimano

People keep pike?

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Slime buckets , don't even bring them into boat.

I once met a guy who said his dad used to cook pike in the dishwasher. Definitely one of the weirder fishing things I've ever heard. I thought he was joking.

Great eating....easy to clean when you know how.

Nothing wrong with Pike they taste good. A bit of an issue to fillet but take your time.

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Originally Posted by sakimano

I once met a guy who said his dad used to cook pike in the dishwasher. Definitely one of the weirder fishing things I've ever heard. I thought he was joking.

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Dishwasher salmon or trout was one of my moms specialties. Wrap it in heavy foil and run it through a cycle! As for keeping the pike, I'd say good to go, although I'm not a big fan of summer slimers.

Wow guys this really took off, great discussion thanks. I think that its kinda a grey area but probably ok as long as it is not intentional.

As for eating them. I pulled a 6 lbs pike through the ice this winter and it was delicious second to perch in my books (havent had walleye yet)!! it was the 3rd fish i cleaned and it was not easy to fillet but well worth it.

No doubt about it pike is good meat , most could not tell the difference between pike or walleye if I cooked up a mixed batch in my old cast iron skillet.

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

No doubt about it pike is good meat , most could not tell the difference between pike or walleye if I cooked up a mixed batch in my old cast iron skillet.

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I was going to say the exact same thing.

Another grey area scenario that is governed by your personal code of ethics. Personally, I would not keep the pike, but, it would not offend me if someone did.

Pike are great tablefare if one knows how to clean them.

They need to be 5-6 pounds to make it worth it though.

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Originally Posted by Hunter John

No doubt about it pike is good meat , most could not tell the difference between pike or walleye if I cooked up a mixed batch in my old cast iron skillet.

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To me it's the time of the year, this late in July I throw them back, early spring while the water is still cold, they are a good meal.

I asked the question online to the MNR and two weeks later this is the answer to the exact question of the OP:
"It would not be legal for you to keepthat pike if it was not hooked in the mouth. Double headers do occur, but ifyou did not put the sunfish on the hook for use as bait and you did not leaveit on there after casting and use it as bait, there is little that can be done.Do what you can to shake the other fish if this scenario happens and switch toa large baitfish or a spoon for the pike OR continue to fish for other species."

Sounds like someone doesn't kwon much..... Since, I asked to show me where in the regs. it stipulate that a fish need to be hooked to be kept, I'll let you know.....

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Originally Posted by seabast

I asked the question online to the MNR and two weeks later this is the answer to the exact question of the OP:
"It would not be legal for you to keepthat pike if it was not hooked in the mouth. Double headers do occur, but ifyou did not put the sunfish on the hook for use as bait and you did not leaveit on there after casting and use it as bait, there is little that can be done.Do what you can to shake the other fish if this scenario happens and switch toa large baitfish or a spoon for the pike OR continue to fish for other species."

Sounds like someone doesn't kwon much..... Since, I asked to show me where in the regs. it stipulate that a fish need to be hooked to be kept, I'll let you know.....

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See pg#8 of the 2015 regs....
catch a fish by impaling or snagging it with a hook through any part of the body OTHER THAN ITS MOUTH must be released immediately....key words OTHER THAN ITS MOUTH

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Originally Posted by OUTCAST

See pg#8 of the 2015 regs....
catch a fish by impaling or snagging it with a hook through any part of the body OTHER THAN ITS MOUTH must be released immediately....key words OTHER THAN ITS MOUTH

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I know about pg#8, but what about when it is not hooked at all, and just hold on your bait?

The way I read the reg is that the only way you can keep a fish is to hook it through the mouth during open season.

No where in the regs does it state a fish must have a hook in the mouth.
Only the fish can be hooked no other place than the mouth.
The definition of "angling" in the regs doesn't included the need for a hook.
Some fish are legally targeted without using hooks.
For example yarn balls for smelt & worm balls for bullheads.

Waiting the answer form the MNR, but I really think they don't really know....

I would go with Woodsman on this. I would keep the fish, this seems to be a gray area.

ok, here's a question.

1) A small lunge that may or may not be of legal size takes your "bait".
2) A much larger lunge in turn, hammers your smaller lunge.

You land both.
Your daily possession limit or your conservation liscence says one or both must be released immediately.

The smaller lunge is ripped to shreds, no way it will make it.
The larger lunge, which hit the smaller lunge will.

To me anyways, while there doesn't really seem to anything in the regs that's black or white (Sunfish being a gamefish, but if its 30 feet from the boat and 10under the surface, how would you know until it was brought in), the definition of angling, and the various legal ways to "angle" would seem to suggest.

The second incidental fish, wouldn't fall under them and should be returned.

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Originally Posted by johnjyb

So is gar fishing with yarn/rope illegal as there is no hooks used, as well as worm balls in pantyhose without hooks for bullheads?
John

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Neither are a game fish.

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Originally Posted by jimmer

Neither are a game fish.

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And what is game fish?
The regs doesn't define or specify this term.

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Originally Posted by jimmer

Neither are a game fish.

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True, but I dont think it matters as the regs dont stipulate they only apply to game fish.

Seems like a grey area they overlooked but for the amount of times it could actually happen its probably not a big deal. Most fish would take off once the net hits the water anyways.

Sorry can't use game fish as bait and That is what the situation was you have to Hook the quarry you are after in the mouth with a hook to be legal

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Sorry can't use game fish as bait and That is what the situation was you have to Hook the quarry you are after in the mouth with a hook to be legal

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Yes but if the sunfish wasn't put on the hook to use as bait then imho it wasn't being "used" as bait, it just ended up as bait. I think the fish wold be legal to keep assuming it was of the right size and in season.

i can not believe this thread is still going on, get a life.

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Originally Posted by fishing1

i can not believe this thread is still going on, get a life.

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Oh not a civil discussion on a fishing topic on a fishing forum how terrible!

After 1 month and 11 days I finally received an answer from the MNR concerning this debate:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry.

After consulting with Fisheries Policyand Enforcement we have found that it would be legal to keep the pike in yourscenario so long as it was within the legal limit and the sunfish wasn'tintentionally used as bait. If a Conservation Officer had reasonablesuspicion that you were letting the pike eat the sunfish then it would beconsidered as bait. In this case the pike would be illegally harvested assunfish are not a listed live baitfish species.

We hope you have found this informationhelpful. If you require further assistance, please contact the NaturalResources Information Centre at 1-800-667-1940.

Regards,

NRIC web reader - CG"

The end. Amen

common sense prevails.

Glad to see this but didn't they initially say it was illegal to keep that fish... referring to your earlier inquire post 39....

Does it really depend on who is on the other end of the line when the inquiry is being made.... what a shame...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seabast

After 1 month and 11 days I finally received an answer from the MNR concerning this debate:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry.

After consulting with Fisheries Policyand Enforcement we have found that it would be legal to keep the pike in yourscenario so long as it was within the legal limit and the sunfish wasn'tintentionally used as bait. If a Conservation Officer had reasonablesuspicion that you were letting the pike eat the sunfish then it would beconsidered as bait. In this case the pike would be illegally harvested assunfish are not a listed live baitfish species.

We hope you have found this informationhelpful. If you require further assistance, please contact the NaturalResources Information Centre at 1-800-667-1940.

Regards,

NRIC web reader - CG"

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Originally Posted by fratri

Glad to see this but didn't they initially say it was illegal to keep that fish... referring to your earlier inquire post 39....

Does it really depend on who is on the other end of the line when the inquiry is being made.... what a shame...

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Well, yes most of the time it does but really it's not that bad.

People on the other line are not trained to answer difficult question. So in this case, the first answer was base on someone little knowledge, than I mentioned that because of this and that it didn't make sense so someone else got involved.

Interesting thanks for getting to the bottom of this!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seabast

After 1 month and 11 days I finally received an answer from the MNR concerning this debate:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry.

After consulting with Fisheries Policyand Enforcement we have found that it would be legal to keep the pike in yourscenario so long as it was within the legal limit and the sunfish wasn'tintentionally used as bait. If a Conservation Officer had reasonablesuspicion that you were letting the pike eat the sunfish then it would beconsidered as bait. In this case the pike would be illegally harvested assunfish are not a listed live baitfish species.

We hope you have found this informationhelpful. If you require further assistance, please contact the NaturalResources Information Centre at 1-800-667-1940.

Regards,

NRIC web reader - CG"

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What if the hook is down the throat of the pike? Not in the mouth still legal? Im just joshing...id say personally for me it would depend on the circumstance for example if i felt the pike was not going to make it if i released it i would most definitely keep it but if i was able to release the pike without any issues id let it go...legal not legal id say my personal morals are more important than a fine. Having said that i in no way endorse poaching or fishing illegally in whichever respect you care to mention. But wasting a meal for my family when so many others struggle to get by doesnt seem like the right thing to do. Also if the fish is in season whats the harm you are not targeting them with a sunfish it just happens. Tight lines

What happens if??? I am fly fishing and, a frog takes the fly,a small bass takes the frog,a small pike takes the bass, a decent walleye takes the pike, and then a musky takes the walleye???? Just thinking, wouldn't that be awesome, amazing and heavy. And if it happened I would run out and buy a lottery ticket, lol. If nothing else you could sing it to your kids to the tune of , farmer in the dell. Or add a few more words and make it a bedtime story for our little fishing buddies to dream about .

Well,I am a newbie to this site.But not to fishing.I always thought the definition of a legally hooked fish was "forward of the gills" .That way if a fish takes a swipe at your offering ,it was a legitimate attempt to bite ,and not a fowl hook or attempted snag.

And yes this is a very interesting topic .It shows that even the ministry ,in writing the regs cannot possibly think of all of the different situations that can develop while angling.

My thoughts are illegal since that isn't angling. I would never keep a fish that did that personally - when in doubt, just release it.