Printable View
So I had a client call me about hunting upland birds, said he went with an outfitter last year and the outfitter told him if the property isn't marked with no trespassing signs than you can go in and hunt it whenever you want . I had to laugh. I have been in the hunting industry a lot of years and as far as I am concerned if it is private land marked or not you are considered to be trespassing and will be charged if caught , am I wrong ?
The only situation where the outfitter would be correct would be where nothing has been done to improve the land in any way: no crops, no buildings, no nothing. Just bush. And this would not apply to woodlot areas in southern Ontario -- it really only applies up north.
I don't think the law makes a distinction between up north and southern Ontario.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Generally what the outfitter said is correct - with exceptions for agricultural land - property must be marked no trespassing.
However, that said, the law is badly out of date. I'm not sure why the province hasn't updated it.
This is what I have read too, if you cross a fence or the land is developed then it is trespassing or it needs to be signed off, either dots (red dots are no trespassing, orange dots are no hunting) or signs.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
That being said, if you are kicked off it once and you are shown the property lines then you can be charged if you are back on the property.
Straight from the Act :
Prohibition of entry
3. (1) Entry on premises may be prohibited by notice to that effect and entry is prohibited without any notice on premises,
(a) that is a garden, field or other land that is under cultivation, including a lawn, orchard, vineyard and premises on which trees have been planted and have not attained an average height of more than two metres and woodlots on land used primarily for agricultural purposes; or
(b) that is enclosed in a manner that indicates the occupier’s intention to keep persons off the premises or to keep animals on the premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 3 (1).
Therefore the outfitter is right. It need to be clearly posted if it is not maintained (cultivated,fenced, cut or something that makes it look owned)
I heard one of the guys on DUTV say this when hunting in Saskatchewan. he said they choose to ask permission anyways, but in Canada it has to be posted or you can hunt it. I laughed since he oversimplified the rule (which probably made a whole lot of people think they can do anything they want), but essentially that is the case, if it is an uncultivated woodlot or waterbody etc.
it seems in SWO finding land that meets this criteria would be next to impossible. not to mention it doesn't help landowner/hunter relations if you push these loopholes for your own benefit. just go ask....
My dads place is a thick bush with swamp, he signed it off because people claimed they "did not know"Quote:
Originally Posted by bowj
He has no problem with hunters or whatever, but he wants people to ask as it becomes a liability. If he goes out to drop trees and someone is in a stand that he does not know about or someone is hunting in there when he is during the gun hunt things can get iffy very fast and nobody needs to die over that.
I always ask but I know the law does not specify this.
I have contacted the mnr and police over this matter and they stated if you enter land without knowing whether it is private or not you can be charged with trespassing , land does not have to be marked, it helps but it is up to the person entering the land to know there surroundings .
They did say however marking the land does help if someone were to get hurt on the property , this way you cover your own butt . I just was amazed , the land this outfitter was trying to enter was a set of popplers that butts up to a corn field and it is fenced in all the way around , I know the exact property , the outfitter even had a guy Drop him and the clients off so there was no vehicles at the road .
I just wanted to clarify and cover all basis before calling him in this up and coming fall .
What they told you is what they believe. Not necessarily the law . Look again at the REGULATIONS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
Correct, Werner. It doesn't. But in practical terms, the kind of land you can enter on the assumption it is not private -- unimproved, uncultivated, etc. -- essentially does not exist in southern Ont.Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
Also, the exception is not just agricultural land. Anything that would make it appear that the land is private would count -- the real point of the rule is that you can only assume the place is not private if there is nothing to suggest otherwise. For that reason, I don't think it really is out of date.
Here is thelink to the law I quoted above.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
I don't know the piece of land you are talking about, but from your initial post the outfitter is right, not you, not the police and not the mnr.
http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90t21
What if the land is not being improved, farmed etc but is for sale?Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
Actually, orange dots do not mean "no hunting". It just means entry is restricted to certain activities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Ok well let me clarify the setup of this property and see what you folks think , house is tucked back in off the road about 300 ft , long driveway that runs along the popplers out to the road , the popplers are about 500 yards wide by about 2000 deep . And on the opposite side is a field. Only access is from the road and you have to climb a fence or park in owners driveway and walk in . It is clearly maintained , and the reason I ask is because my farm is the exact same setup , popplers planted so I have less grass to cut. And the wife doesn't like looking at tacky no tresspassing signs on the nice popplers trees . So if someone comes and parks in front of my land and walks in they have that right ? Doesn't seem right to me , private land is private land. Whether posted or not
"Doesn't seem right to me , private land is private land. Whether posted or not"Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
That's not what the law says. One of the previous posts quoted verbatim the trespass act. That's what the law says.
should be clear enough...Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
people are notorious for interpreting the laws to suit their own needs. My suggestion post your land you actually won't be looking a tacky no trespassing signs just the back of them and you will make it clear its private. Otherwise be prepared to constantly educate those that might of conveniently missed the fact that its private.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
If you have to climb a fence to get on the property its trespassing.
It is very possible that land when not posted and isn't being used looks no different then crown. I am aware of several area that people from this forum hunted land in the past not realizing the land they were on was actually private. So post your land if you don't want someone to mistake it for being private.
The property described is clearly private and a person entering it without permission would be trespassing. If you cross a fenceline, you are obviously trespassing.
What looks like a big loophole in the Act isn't a big loophole at all. It really just lays out common sense. But you will always get people trying to argue they have rights that they don't.
Making sure that private property is properly signed is of utmost importance. Paying particular attention to the TPA sect 2(1)(b),it's required the owner or his/her agent (as defined under The Act) must first advise the offending party to immediately leave the premises when the property is not clearly marked or fencing and signage requirements aren't met or if the cultivation conditions aren't immediately apparent.
Reading statements from "the regs" booklet is a whole world different than knowing how the various Acts read and understanding case law. Precedents that have been set from time to time by the Courts governing those Acts is really the only time someone can say they actually "know the law." Mistakes can be embarrassing and expensive.
Not always again there are exceptions. I know crown land that does have barb wire fence on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Entering onto land that you are unaware that it is private is one thing. Simply stating its not posted so you can trespass it or hunt it is another. Doesn't matter if your in the north or south. If you know its private get permission.
My mothers farm if you are driving along one road the half mile section simply looks like a crown land, your turn right at the stop sign and quickly realize its private. However that area is surrounded by all farms.
I know of waterfowl hunters who have asked permission and haven't been granted permission so they sneak in and try to hunt it early before the landowner is awake.
Hunters need to realize when they trespass or disrespect property owners they are setting a poor example and can ruin opportunities for other hunters. Lots of property owners grant permission however it only takes one incident for them to close their property to all hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProvider00
I I guess everyone is different , I have alway been taught if you don't know stop and ask don't just go venturing onto the land , hence why there is government land maps available at all town halls .
I hunt southern Ontario and there is very few parcels of land marked around my area . 99 percent of it private .
I guess i just cant rap my head around the fact that people just assume and head into the bush guns loaded . I was speaking with another farmer tonight about goose hunting his land , he said he kicked 10 different groups out last year , and I was the first ever to ask him permission to hunt the land , I got it but thought to myself that is ballsy , just pull into a cut field set out a spread and start hunting , hope know one comes out.
things like this shock me , is it un educated hunters doing this stuff or just stupidity/ lazy hunters that don't feel the need to ask?
I know there are hunters out there that know they are in the wrong and sneak into properties just because , and I also know some hunters don't know the boundaries to properties adjacent to the next which is a honest mistake , but just driving down a road , seeing a piece of land that is over grown say with popplers getting out and hunting it because it looks non maintained isn't ok .
Sorry for the rant but I can't seem to grasp this concept , maybe I was just brought up better than that and respect others land .
I will say this the first time I catch anyone hunting my set of popplers whether it be this monkey outfitter or a joe blow off the street , and they try and play the I thought it was crown land , I will be pulling a map out and showing them the property lines and they will be leaving quicker than they came in , one warning that's it. And the next dumb dumb that blocks my driveway to walk into my popplers his or her vehicle will be towed ,
Remember there are a lot of people that never leave the big city and think that outside the city is God's country. I believe some of them know full well that they are doing something wrong but I also believe there are some that just thinks it's okay after-all we are in God's country, no-one is going to care... Not saying it is right by any means just saying I think some people just lived in the square box too long....
I don't understand why you'd go into an area that you have never hunted and your not sure of without researching it with maps and google earth first. I enjoy exploring new areas but when unsure of the area I do my research first.
Funny story of a buddy in BC. Just outside of a small town in and valley with steep mountains on either side. He had a long driveway. He had to cut down a couple trees along the driveway so his truck is parked on the drive way as he is cutting up the wood. Vehicle rolls up behind him and starts honking. Within a few seconds they were yelling at him to get out of the way that they were in a hurry to go camping. He told them where to go :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
Agreed
Mojo's neck of the woods is well known for trespassing hunters, usually from Hamilton. They know better, they just conveniently forget, along with their English.Quote:
Originally Posted by fratri
The outfitter must be from Sask, lol. Around Esterhazy and the Que'Appelle Valley that's how it works for the locals and farmers...can't say it's the same around here though.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
When I lived in Ontario my buddy Bob and his brothers came up bear hunting on a couple farms I had permission on and a couple spots of crown land I knew had bears. First night they all hunted my spots. Second night his one brother and his son decided to drive around farms. That night he told us they spotted a bear in a field. The son snuck in with his bow and rifle. Turns out his 30yrd pin was broken so he shot it with a rifle. As soon as he shot lights came on in a house close by so he ran back to the truck and took off. They went back a few hours to look but didn't find it.
That really bothered me and if I knew the farm I probably would have reported them. I talked to Bob about it a few months later and he said he didn't care to hunt with his brother. He used to invite him to hunt a few farms near Ottawa. One evening he got a call from a raging land owner yelling at him for trespassing and hunting on his farm. Turns out Bob's brother trespassed and was deer hunting on a farm. Land owner caught him and when the landowner asked him he lied and said his name was Bob @@@@@. So the landowner looked up his number in the phone book to talk to him about trespassing. That was the last time he invited his brother to go deer hunting.
Sounded like you were going to get all heavy with them there. I was ready for some Charles Bronson stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
Then you threatened to pull out a map and call a tow truck. Bit of a damp squib. :)
I can't say what I would like to do to trespassers , it just rattles me that people have the nerve to pull this off , like especially to block my driveway so I couldn't get into it , that's what made me the most angry , sure trespass I will chase you out but to do it so obvious come on people . And this outfitter is known to do this on many properties
It's no wonder we get a bad name and hunting areas are lost when people act this way . A outfitter should not run an operation this way let alone anyone hunting on their own . Remember landowners talk and are neighbours and if somebody ticks one off the next thing you know the whole area is cut off . Bottom line unless it's crown, if you don't have permission or don't own it and pay the taxes on it stay out . I've seen quite a few farms and woodlots lost to any access because of a few being selfish and not respecting others
Well said, 2-3 farmers start talking and hundreds of acres is closed right quick. Before I moved to BC I lived in WMU 28. There was about 3 main waterfowl hunting crew in the area. Plus a few smaller groups of course. One group was known for trespassing and also leaving garbage in fields that they had permission to hunt. The group was practically run out of a whole township. No one would give him permission there. Got to the point when we would go ask land owners for permission to hunt one of the first questions would be if we knew or hunted with a few guys from that group. We didn't of course and we would tell them that. We would also add about the stories we have heard about the group and bad reputation. Normally as soon as the landowner heard we didn't like them they would give us permission right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamemaster
One weekend we knew that group was scouting close to us. We found a great field with lots of birds that we had permission on and so did they. We ended up spending the night in the field so we would have it first. Well their trucks showed up at 3am and saw us. They sped out of there and went into the field beside us. The farmer was in the field fixing his combine and went to talk to them and ask them what they were doing. They stated they had permission from the landowner to hunt that field. Farmer stated that's funny cause he owned the land and no they didn't have permission. So they drove out of that field and into the field we were in. They setup 100yrds behind us. Couple guys in are group wanted to pack up and leave. We stayed even with them setup right behind us. We didn't even have to do any calling. The group was calling like crazy to try and pull the birds into their setup. Every flock landed in our setup and it didn't take long to shoot our limit. They tried a few hail mary shots over our heads and even sent their dog to retrieve one of our birds which they kept. In the end we took our sweet time packing up until the birds stopped flying. The only bird they got was the one bird they stole from us.
I am a true believer in being ethical, using common sense and being respectful of other hunters, land owners and the game we hunt. Unfortunately it seems there's a lot of people out there who will go to extremes and do whatever it takes to shoot an animal. I always tell people when booking with outfitters take your time and do your research. Get a few references from the outfitter. There's a lot of great outfitters out there and there's a few that will do anything to make money. You don't want to spend your money on a hunt to end up with being charged for offences.
Yes exactly, as soon as you say fence, then its trespassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waftrudnir
Not always!! As great white posted, he knows of crown with barbed wire on it. And I myself hunt a huge tract of crown that has barbed wire, cedar rail and page wire fences through out it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
It used to be farm land and then was purchased by the crown from the farmers.
Not exactly Fingal and Hullet come to mind. However you're right in Southern Ontario a fence you should assume its private unless otherwise determined not the other way aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by 3Wheelerdude
I have a couple of pieces of property south of Ottawa. I have one signed as it has easy access and seems to be where the trespassers come from the most. The other two are not signed. Guess which one still has the most instances of trespass. The guys that would just walk onto someone's land without seeking permission are the same ones who ignore or claim they didn't see the signs. The guys that ask permission would never just saunter onto someone's land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo stick
Reading through a number of comments, I was left scratching my head when I came across the word 'popplers', being someone who farms and plants trees, I had to conclude there's a real shortage of dictionaries out there, and spell check must be switched off on a number of computers. Correct spelling of the tree specie referred to is 'poplar.'
As for trespassing, if you intend to hunt a piece of land, your first obligation is to determine if it is private or public. There is not requirement that the land be posted, if it is that should save you a bit of research in determining the statue of the property. Some clues that the property might be private are: lane ways, cultivated fields, fences, buildings,the presence of crops, livestock or farm machinery. There are fines for:
trespass for the purpose of hunting, trespass in possession of firearm, trespass in possession of other fishing or hunting devices, hunting while trespassing, failure to leave premises when trespassing, interfering with notices, unlawfully entering crops, unlawfully permitting a dog to enter crops, and here 's one you better watch out for, unlawfully trespassing on Crown land. These are all offences under the FWCA, 1997. If you wish to hunt on private property get permission, and get it in writing.
You don't stop hunting because you get old. You get old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut
Checking to see how you could possibly be charged for trespassing on Crown land I came across this from the Ontario Land Association, it counter what I though about private land not having to be posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Landowners are encouraged to put up “No Trespassing Signs” and Landowners signs as a secure means of protecting your property from any type of inspection, mapping or photography whether it be by air, water or land.
Entry on to Private Property
In general, terms anyone may enter onto private property to do anything, which is lawful without occupier permission unless the entrant has been given notice that entry is prohibited. Therefore, a private owned bush lot is available to the public until the occupier notifies otherwise. The occupier has a number of options when it comes to letting people know that entry is prohibited or that activities are restricted.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
I'm going to assume you meant "counters" not "counter" :)
good for the goose........
Gun nuts
school was never my strong point and I am the first to admit it, and not much care really , you correcting me is a waste, the next post will be full of mistakes .
But thanks for point it out bud .
And I will assume you meant "thought" , not " though"??????.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
and the gander...........
stones....... glass houses.....????????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Come on guys why pick on his spelling mistakes. I'm more concern when he is responding to and correcting his own post. Two side of the same coin eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter1
Thanks, I have a bad habit of dropping 'ed's' and 's' spell check helps most times with spelling, but my fall back is a dictionary. Another problem I have is using the wrong word for the word I mean. Unfortunately the computer's grammar check is not as great as it might be.
The quote is: What is gravy for the goose is gravy for the gander.
None the less, words have value, accurate communication require making the effort to use them as correctly as possible. It makes for less head scratching.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
-Gun Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
That is all fine and dandy for the book of the month club. Here though as sportspeople we are more concerned with the message at hand not so much with the format for which it is presented. If something is written in a manor for which it is written that is confusing for you please ask for clarification before spouting off on some tangent. None of us seem particularly concerned however your knit picking is a little tedious.
Are you sure it's not "Sauce for the goose" from the original quote?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Two weeks before the season and we are focussed on grammar and spelling?
Well school does start up again Tuesday so would imagine them teachers are getting antsy.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe16
Does anyone happen to know which Act applies to unlawfully posting land? I know the offense is punishable by fines up to $25K and/or a year in jail. I just can't find the proper applicable law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe16
Hi joe16,
You I perceive, as something of a secure person. Either that or you're a real diplomat. You may have even grasped the irony of the situation at hand. The headline on this session reads, "Are hunters really that uneducated?" My introduction into correcting the word 'popplers', obvious put a lot of backs up. This is a good thing. As I have pointed out before, many who tune into this forum are not all registrants and some have taken the view that the opinions express have left them confused. I think there is a lot of valuable information being shared here. I've even picked up some useful stuff. So this session having the heading, "Are hunters really that uneducated?" caught my attention. Where does someone get off raising such a question, and making such an inference. Then as I was reading through the comments I came upon the word 'popplers.' Ah, a good way to demonstrate the truth of the session heading. Really, how much time does it take to ensure that we at least getting the spelling of the vocabulary we're using right? Generally we are given warning of a spelling error through spell check.
P.S. I hope I haven't slaughter the tenses in the above to badly they were never my strong point. No I'm am not and teacher, but my eldest daughter is.
You don't stop hunting because you get old. You get old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut.
Gun Nut..... God knows how this place survived this long without your input....... Thank goodness you came along...... looking forward to you sharing your knowledge and outdoor experiences with us....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7OWVM50sBwQuote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
Maybe this trimmer? Im not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
(2)In a prosecution with respect to an offence pursuant to this Section, any monument, pin, post or other marker alleged to have been placed on Crown lands shall, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, be deemed to have been placed on Crown lands for the purpose of establishing a boundary thereon. R.S., c. 114, s. 14.
Gun nut and all the essence of this forum is that we are all passionate about dogs, hunting, and upland birds. Most of us contribute to the forum from handheld devices where spell check and auto correct are often a nightmare.
To that end, really makes no difference to me how someone spells poplar or if we miss a tense or a dangling participle.
I do see some irony in the title of the thread and the way we have developed it.
For me the value of this forum is to be able to share and learn from others who share the same interest as I do.
And on another note Lorenzo, I think that we are aging ourselves when we talk about Cedar Valley game farm and Tom I thought I may have been the only one old enough to remember.
Have a great long weekend gun nut and forum memberd
Gun nut .
you have missed the point completely , pull your head out of your dictionary and have a look at what's going on in the hunting world .
Hunters go threw courses that teach the hunter right from wrong. And for someone to think it is ok to trespassing on land because they don't see a no trespassing sign is just outrageous in my eyes. That was my point , not for some know it all that has a dictionary in front of him to correct me on my spelling. Trust me I have gotten this far in life very successful without needing spell check , I am pretty sure it won't change now , don't like any of my 1200 plus comments I have contributed to this forum don't respond . Don't need to waste space talking about grammar and spelling .
Well said however if you ever find your participle dangles well there's meds for that now.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe16
FFF
That's a different kind of pointing
I had the doctor remove mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
And with that hope we can close this thread.